Merged: Cold Fusion Claims

[BowlOfRed]

Originally Posted by SusanB-M1

Today I was listening (CD version) to an article on cold fusion in the New Scientist of 5th November. I hasten to add that I didn't atually understand any of it, but find it so ineteresting to try. There was something about the LHC there too and about magnets and the experiments being done there. A question occurs: if particles are being sent off to travel, why is it better to make them travel in a circle and is it the magnets that make them follow that circle? I appreciate that it would of course be somewhat difficult to build a 27-mile straight tube!! In theory, would a straight tube work better?

Yes, the magnetic field directs the particles in a circle.

Yes, the accelerator is trying to speed up (or pump energy into) the particles. It can't do this instantaneously, so it has to do this over a distance.

It's not that you can't build a 27-mile straight tube, it's that you can't turn around at the end. A circular accelerator is effectively infinitely long, so the acceleration can be done over a longer path. It can also set up collisions to happen on multiple passes (since not all the accelerated particles will hit the target on the first pass).

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Ooh, National Instruments is supposedly involved now.

http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_N...-Cat_controls/

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Apologies if this skeptical summary has already been posted.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

~~ Paul

[Jorghnassen]

E-Cat? Let me guess, his design is a cat with a buttered toast taped on its back. Brilliant!

[ben m]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Ooh, National Instruments is supposedly involved now.

http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_N...-Cat_controls/

~~ Paul

If the voices in your head tell you to retreat to your basement, eat nothing but wheat germ, and build a chemtrail-powered spaceship out of spark plugs and small loudspeakers; and the voices tell you to pulse the speakers with all Twitter traffic mentioning "Jodie Foster", "CIA", or "Mercury Seven" ... well, National Instruments will happily sell you a waveform generator, a GPIB card, and a copy of Labview. It's what they do. But the resulting blog post, "National Instruments signs on to build controls for brainwave spaceship", should not lead you to believe that NI has somehow verified or tested the spaceship.

What's next? "Pepsi-Cola signs on to hydrate E-Cat operators." "Karma Copy signs on to generate E-Cat sales forms." "FedEx signs on to run E-Cat international logistics and transport."

[TjW]

"Bandini signs on to supply publicity."

[Andrew Wiggin]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

You will find that most people here are acquainted with cross section of collision, and electrostatic repulsion, as well as other sub aprticle phenomena of itnerrest involved in fusion. Saying that cold fusion is only an engineering problem and comparing it to metal hammering, is , shall I say, rather a poor analogy.

I'm oddly reminded of a movie I recall seeing. I don't remember the title or much about it, except that it was rather horrible. I DO remember an ill-groomed australian kid splitting atoms with hammer and chisel, and then using the resulting energy to carbonate beer. That's about as good an analogy for fission as forge welding is for fusion.

[Grassy Knowlington]

Quote:

I'm oddly reminded of a movie I recall seeing. I don't remember the title or much about it, except that it was rather horrible. I DO remember an ill-groomed australian kid splitting atoms with hammer and chisel, and then using the resulting energy to carbonate beer. That's about as good an analogy for fission as forge welding is for fusion.

The film does demonstrate a healthy Australian outlook on life though.

[Kid Eager]

...and it's about as credible as the Ecat...

[Grassy Knowlington]

[QUOTE

What's next? "Pepsi-Cola signs on to hydrate E-Cat operators." "Karma Copy signs on to generate E-Cat sales forms." "FedEx signs on to run E-Cat international logistics and transport."[/quote]

Farm-Animals-RUs are supplying the bulls***.

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Ooh, National Instruments is supposedly involved now.

http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_N...-Cat_controls/

~~ Paul

I don't it matter much . For NI it just another client asking for some type of instrumentation. Heck I got an old contract with NI and some labview books somewhere in the clutter. Believer OTOH surely made it spin the otehr way around.

[Yevgen Barsukov]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Ooh, National Instruments is supposedly involved now.

http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_N...-Cat_controls/

~~ Paul

If Rossi buys some off the shelf measurement equipment from NI, he will still be perfectly capable to miscalibrate his thermocouples. Only now he will be
able to miscalibrate them more accurately to get the exact desired output.
I would not be surprised to see that now his "excess energy" calculations
will produce round numbers like 1.00 MW

LOL

Yevgen

[Baloney]

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

I'm oddly reminded of a movie I recall seeing. I don't remember the title or much about it, except that it was rather horrible. I DO remember an ill-groomed australian kid splitting atoms with hammer and chisel, and then using the resulting energy to carbonate beer. That's about as good an analogy for fission as forge welding is for fusion.

(Pfft. This yahoo can't be serious!)

[Craig B]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Actuually, it is MUCH MUCH more funny. Rossie *disowned* / disclaimed any business relationship , said he approved nothing, and asked Sterling to take it down. http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physic...p=510#comments LOL ? ROFL ?

I don't know if there's an acronym for one's legitimate reaction to the latest developments in the Rossi - Allen collaboration, but have a look at

http://pesn.com/2011/11/15/960195_St...ardo-ECat.com/

Wherein we are told that Rossi denounces the Allen website as useless, but thinks it would be best if it stays up, and Allan's going to use Google ad funding for it. My favourite bit of Allen's explanation of the situation is

Quote:

Having been burned so many times, and having a challenging personality, he's quite resistant to allowing people to work with him. By the time it was pulled, the "personnel" page ultimately ended up with just one name: Andrea Rossi.

For "burned" read "banged up in the slammer"; and his resistance to having people work with him is either they know what's going on and then they get jailed for smuggling gold into Switzerland, like Rossi's old Petroldragon collaborator, or they have no idea what's going on and Rossi wants to keep it that way.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

I'm oddly reminded of a movie I recall seeing. I don't remember the title or much about it, except that it was rather horrible. I DO remember an ill-groomed australian kid splitting atoms with hammer and chisel, and then using the resulting energy to carbonate beer. That's about as good an analogy for fission as forge welding is for fusion.

Did he then beat the tar out of something? I was under the impression that TF2's treatment of Australian technology was rather unique.

[pedrone]

Originally Posted by ben m

If the voices in your head tell you to retreat to your basement, eat nothing but wheat germ, and build a chemtrail-powered spaceship out of spark plugs and small loudspeakers; and the voices tell you to pulse the speakers with all Twitter traffic mentioning "Jodie Foster", "CIA", or "Mercury Seven" ... well, National Instruments will happily sell you a waveform generator, a GPIB card, and a copy of Labview. It's what they do. But the resulting blog post, "National Instruments signs on to build controls for brainwave spaceship", should not lead you to believe that NI has somehow verified or tested the spaceship.

What's next? "Pepsi-Cola signs on to hydrate E-Cat operators." "Karma Copy signs on to generate E-Cat sales forms." "FedEx signs on to run E-Cat international logistics and transport."

yes, you can be sure that pepsi-cola and coca-cola will buy several 1MW eCat plants !!!

[unclep2k]

http://e-catsite.com/2011/11/17/ross...lenr-findings/

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by unclep2k

http://e-catsite.com/2011/11/17/ross...lenr-findings/

Quote:

“In the last 8 weeks I have been astounded by a superior nanotechnology that will capture the imagination of even the greatest foes of LENR. I believe all of LENR is just a new and unanticipated form of nanomagnetism.”

"Ignore that snake-oil salesman with his fancy claims! Ahern's Advanced Ophidian Unguents are The Real Deal!"

[unclep2k]

Sounds like a battle is brewing for patents

[unclep2k]

Looks like the University of Illinois and Iowa State University are becoming big players in this technology.

[Dancing David]

When Aherns shows what he has then we can see if it looks like cold fusion or something else.

[ben m]

Originally Posted by unclep2k

Looks like the University of Illinois and Iowa State University are becoming big players in this technology.

Now that there are "big players" in this "technology", when will one of them actually do a competent and non-super-secret calorimetry experiment?

You can make personality-based excuses for Rossi, like "his technology works, but he acts like a scammer because he's paranoid and secretive", but not for arbitrary numbers of people.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by unclep2k

Looks like the University of Illinois and Iowa State University are becoming big players in this technology.

Players? Not yet - there's a lot of talk but the action is somewhat lacking

[unclep2k]

Whats kind of strange. Ames Lab where Brian Ahrens is supposed to be producing the nanomaterials for University of Illinois professor george Miley is funded by the Department of Energy. The Department of Energy is openly skeptical of lenr. Is our government keeping secrets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ames_Laboratory

[paulhutch]

Originally Posted by unclep2k

Whats kind of strange. Ames Lab where Brian Ahrens is supposed to be producing the nanomaterials for University of Illinois professor george Miley is funded by the Department of Energy. The Department of Energy is openly skeptical of lenr. Is our government keeping secrets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ames_Laboratory

From the Wiki link, emphasis added by me:

Quote:

Ames Laboratory is a United States Department of Energy national laboratory located in Ames, Iowa. The Laboratory conducts research into various areas of national concern, including the synthesis and study of new materials, energy resources, high-speed computer design, and environmental cleanup and restoration.

So regardless of the DOE's stance on LENR they're mission includes funding research into new materials like Brian Ahrens' nanomaterials. No CT is needed to explain the DOE funding.

[unclep2k]

Ooops I think I spelled his name wrong. It's Dr Brian Aherns.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by paulhutch

So regardless of the DOE's stance on LENR they're mission includes funding research into new materials like Brian Ahrens' nanomaterials. No CT is needed to explain the DOE funding.

Yep. I've seen nanomaterials in several patent applications in the last few years. They do have some interesting properties, and can produce useful effects that bulk materials don't show. The potential of these things is quite real, and worth researching. Just don't expect the real results to include cold fusion.

[unclep2k]

Actually Dr Ahern is a critic of the cold fusion concept. He thinks the heat comes from some kind of nanomagnetism. http://citi5.org/launch/?p=1826

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by unclep2k

Sounds like a battle is brewing for patents

What battle ? The stuff I saw in rossi patent would not be worth a patent as it is neither innovative nor non obvious to somebody in the art (it is basically just a reaction chamber with heating and coolant circulation). The catalyzer is not patented and kept as a secret item. So assuming (and that is a big IF) that such catalyzer exists and do indeed work as intended, anybody patenting it now wins automatically in all first-to-file countries. More or less the whole world minus the US (unless alw changed there recentely). So no battle, rossi losses.

Think about this : why did not Rossi patent the catalyzer out of the wazoo ? Why ? I can think of a lot of why : anybody could have checked whether it worked or not as the patent would have given out how it is made. And I am 100(minus epsilon) % certain that this would have quickly led to a string of "not working".

So don't expect patent battle.

All I see some scammer trying to go on the bandwaggon (like that swiss company).

[unclep2k]

http://e-catsite.com/

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by unclep2k

http://e-catsite.com/

excellent parody website!

[BenBurch]

All these people wanting so desperately to believe something that any charlatan can ring the bell and make them salivate are sad. It really shakes what faith I have in my fellow human beings to see this outright and obvious fraud leading them on for going on a year now.

[Aepervius]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

All these people wanting so desperately to believe something that any charlatan can ring the bell and make them salivate are sad. It really shakes what faith I have in my fellow human beings to see this outright and obvious fraud leading them on for going on a year now.

Also, look at all those scam or delusional people in pesn or pes wiki.

I have lost my faith in humanity 30 years ago. You get used to it. At least I can't become an old cynical codger with age, I was already that way in my 20's.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I have lost my faith in humanity 30 years ago. You get used to it. At least I can't become an old cynical codger with age, I was already that way in my 20's.

<old cynical codger>
Evidence?

[Dancing David]

November 30, 2011

Look Rocky, I am going to pull a rabbit out of my hat

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Dancing David

November 30, 2011

Look Rocky, I am going to pull a rabbit out of my hat

Hey, come on!

http://ecatnews.com/?p=1487

Quote:

Herb Gillis
November 28th, 2011 at 12:42 PM

Andrea Rossi:
How long do you think it will be before there is a 1MW customer that is willing to talk about their experiences with the product and act as a reference? Having another customer out there who is willing to act as a reference could provide tremendous leverage. This would be far more valuable than any public test. It would silence the skeptics forever.

Andrea Rossi
November 28th, 2011 at 6:48 PM

Dear Herb Gills:
Today we sold in the USA a 1 MW plant which will go to a normal Customer. This installation will be visitable by the qualified public.
We wait to have completed the contractual procedure through the attorneys, then we will give communication. It will be in the North East of the USA, where I have been in these days.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

See? He almost has a customer who's almost willing to be publicly known!


And hey, he's sold 13 more of them, although he still can't tell you anything else about it....

http://ecatreport.com/rossi/the-e-ca...mw-power-plant

Quote:

We are building a 13 MW thermal plant, made of 13 plant such as the one you saw on October 28th: but it’s a military research and I can’t reveal any further detail, not the name, nor the place, nor the nationality of the customer.

But, Defkalion is still in the game, with something big supposed to happen today....
http://ecatnews.com/?p=1481
http://defkalion-energy.com/forum/vi....php?f=4&t=567

Quote:

Dear all,
We will release the expected info pre-announced on November 14th 2011, on Wednesday, November 30th 2011.
Thank you for your attention
Defkalion GT

[Horatius]

Oh, and apparently he was punking Defkalion this whole time....

http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physic...comment-129682

Quote:

Look to what is going on around the Balcans: there are clowns saying they have a technology copied from us, actually they have just a moke up, waiting for the piece of info they need to make a real copy. They believed we would have been selling in October the small E-Cats, so announced they would have made a demo in october ( buying a model, disguising it as a copy made by them). But it was just a trap we made. Conclusion: from now on we will be more sealed than ever, and we will be open exclusively with our Customers.

He also says:

Quote:

To put for sale the small unts we need:
1- safety certification
2- granted patents

But, since we know he's concealed essential details of his device, we know he won't be getting any patents - giving him a perfect excuse to never sell a smaller version that people could actually afford to buy and test...

[ben m]

Rossi's "secret customers" must be pretty thoroughly committed to secrecy. If they'd pipe up and allow their generator to be audited, they'd be eligible for renewable energy credits and tax breaks, typically in the ballpark of $20,000/MW/y.

But no, of course they wouldn't do that. Buying a secret, untested product on the strength of a blog and a three-hour staged demo, then hiding the fact that you've bought it, is perfectly normal practice in cloud cuckoo land.

[Craig B]

Defkalion, Rossi's former collaborators become enemies, have produced a long-awaited statement about their "Hyperion" power device. See http://defkalion-energy.com/files/Hy...vember2011.pdf . Any engineers like to comment? The cryofusionists are disappointed. They were expecting the unveiling of a working model or something sexy like that. Fat chance!

[The Man]

OK, commenting as an engineer (mechanical though), Looks like they’ve got a “non hazardous” “Chemical” “Self destruct” “method” with undisclosed “Sensors” “Controls and electronics”. So essentially the primary operational component of the unit can be destroyed by a chemical that’s apparently not very, well, chemically active.

Also there is purportedly a “chemical assisted pre heating” with “media” that’s “Not to be disclosed”. Seems their ‘pre heat’ “chemical” might be more reactive than their “self destruct” chemical.