Councillor walks out of Muslim prayers

zooterkin · 26th January 2011, 05:37 AM

Just saw this story on TV. A Muslim imam* was invited to say prayers at the opening of the council meeting in Portsmouth; one of the councillors walked out.

Quote:

Portsmouth councillor walked out of a council meeting because an imam was asked to deliver an opening prayer.

Conservative councillor Malcolm Hey left Tuesday night's Portsmouth City Council chamber while Sheikh Fazle Abbas Datoo was speaking.

The imam, from the Al Mahdi mosque in Wickham, had been invited by the city's lord mayor, Paula Richards.

Mr Hey said it was not appropriate for a Muslim to deliver prayers at the start of a full council meeting.

Of course, what did not get raised, either by the councillors or the news reports, was why it was necessary to have any sort of prayers at all before a Council meeting.

*I don't know if there's any other sort, but that's how he was described.

DC · 26th January 2011, 05:41 AM

grown up man fighting about who's imaginary friend is the real deal

Such people run governments......

Cainkane1 · 26th January 2011, 05:42 AM

I don't like having to listen to prayers either but I don't put on a show when it happens.

Mister Agenda · 26th January 2011, 07:53 AM

And now, thanks to that council person, their practice of prayers to open meetings can't possibly pass Constitutional muster.

zooterkin · 26th January 2011, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

And now, thanks to that council person, their practice of prayers to open meetings can't possibly pass Constitutional muster.

Which Constitution would that be?

CurtC · 26th January 2011, 07:57 AM

It's in England, which of course doesn't have our First Amendment. In the US, they'd either have to stop with the Christian prayers, or have prayers from a variety of faiths and non-faith.

Walking out was an offensive thing to do, but in England their government really is officially Christian.

Mister Agenda · 26th January 2011, 07:59 AM

Sorry for the assumption, we have Portsmouths too, and a common issue with town councils opening with prayers.

DC · 26th January 2011, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Sorry for the assumption, we have Portsmouths too, and a common issue with town councils opening with prayers.

ain't that unconstitutional since 1948?

drkitten · 26th January 2011, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by DC

ain't that unconstitutional since 1948?

Not as far as I can tell (little case law specifically addresses municipal councils). Case law on graduation prayer suggests that it wouldn't be unconstitutional if it were vague and inclusive enough.

kerikiwi · 26th January 2011, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by CurtC

or have prayers from a variety of ... non-faith.

How does that work?

zooterkin · 26th January 2011, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

Sorry for the assumption, we have Portsmouths too,

The original doesn't need qualification.

Quote:

and a common issue with town councils opening with prayers.

Yes, the story certainly had a familiar ring to it. The situation in this country is contradictory. We have, in practice, a largely secular society, and yet it seems to be completely unquestioned that Christian prayers should open a council meeting. Churches also get a say in making local policies.

Lucian · 26th January 2011, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by CurtC

It's in England, which of course doesn't have our First Amendment. In the US, they'd either have to stop with the Christian prayers, or have prayers from a variety of faiths and non-faith.

Walking out was an offensive thing to do, but in England their government really is officially Christian.

It's officially Anglican, isn't it? Would the council member have walked out if an RC priest or a Methodist minister had been asked to deliver the prayer?

BadBoy · 27th January 2011, 06:13 AM

perhaps the guy who walked was an Athiest. Being an Athiest, it would actually peev me, maybe to the point of walking out.

Jesus Christ, cant we keep religion out of official public affares? When wiil the world grow up.

zooterkin · 27th January 2011, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by BadBoy

perhaps the guy who walked was an Athiest. Being an Athiest, it would actually peev me, maybe to the point of walking out.

If so, why would he wait until a Muslim was invited to lead the prayers?

As it happens, from the story he clearly isn't:

Quote:

Mr Hey, ward councillor for Copnor, is a founder member of the Grace Baptist Church in Copnor Road.

"In a letter, and without any consultation, the lord mayor invited, and will invite, other religions to take part and I was not happy with that," he said.

"I'm a Christian, not a Muslim, and I do not believe we are praying to the same god."

rwguinn · 27th January 2011, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

If so, why would he wait until a Muslim was invited to lead the prayers?

As it happens, from the story he clearly isn't:

Quote:

..."I'm a Christian, not a Muslim, and I do not believe we are praying to the same god."

So, he believes that there ARE other gods?

Spindrift · 27th January 2011, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

If so, why would he wait until a Muslim was invited to lead the prayers?

As it happens, from the story he clearly isn't:

My imaginary magical friend is not the same as your imaginary magical friend.

zooterkin · 29th January 2011, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

My imaginary magical friend is not the same as your imaginary magical friend.

It depends, it appears.

From a report in the local paper:

Quote:

Cllr Riches hopes to be able to invite Catholic and Buddhist religious leaders to read prayers at subsequent meetings.

But Cllr Hey said: 'I will leave for prayers by Buddhists or Hindus. They don't worship the same God as us. I would stay for a Catholic or Jewish prayer, because they do.'

The latest news is that the leader of the Council has asked for the councillor in question to be sacked.

I'm pleased to see that in the comments at least a couple of people have asked why Council time is being spent in prayer meetings.

Plutonium · 29th January 2011, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

The original doesn't need qualification.

Yes, the story certainly had a familiar ring to it. The situation in this country is contradictory. We have, in practice, a largely secular society, and yet it seems to be completely unquestioned that Christian prayers should open a council meeting. Churches also get a say in making local policies.

The position of religion in the UK is somewhat bizarre. There are four components to the country; in Wales and Northern Ireland there is no "established" religion; in Scotland, the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian/Calvinist) is the "established" church, and in England, the Church of England is the established church. The CofE is Anglican/Episcopalian, a mishmash of Protestant, Catholic and liberal elements.

Twenty-six bishops of the Church of England sit in the House of Lords. I do not know of any other country in the world (except perhaps the Vatican) where clergy sit in the legislature by right of being clergymen.

It is traditional for Parliament, and many other institutions, to open with prayers. Religious education is compulsory in schools, and there must also be a religious assembly every morning. By law, this must be of a basically Christian character (although this is frequently breached in practice).

The monarch is forbidden by law from marrying a Roman Catholic. Only recently was the law against blasphemy repealed. In the seventies there was a major blasphemy case where somebody was prosecuted for publishing a poem that blasphemed Jesus.

Personally, I believe in complete separation of church and state, as in France and the USA. The divisive nature of prayers is well illustrated by this example.

What would councillor Hay think of a Muslim who walked out of a meeting because somebody gave a Christian prayer? Or does he maintain a double standard?

I Ratant · 29th January 2011, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Just saw this story on TV. A Muslim imam* was invited to say prayers at the opening of the council meeting in Portsmouth; one of the councillors walked out.

Of course, what did not get raised, either by the councillors or the news reports, was why it was necessary to have any sort of prayers at all before a Council meeting.

*I don't know if there's any other sort, but that's how he was described.

.
Here, prayer has been authorized before city council meetings, after some debate.
Don't know if other-than-Christian prayers can be offered.
ETA:
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may...rayer-20100505

geni · 29th January 2011, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Lucian

It's officially Anglican, isn't it? Would the council member have walked out if an RC priest or a Methodist minister had been asked to deliver the prayer?

Due to an historical anomaly portsmouth has both catholic and CofE cathedrals. This doesn't appear to cause problems.

Rrose Selavy · 29th January 2011, 02:38 PM

Seeing the thread title, I so wished it were an atheist who waliked out. That it wasn't, reading the report, just added to the irony/stupidity.
Anyway here is the Uk National Secular Society's take on the issue which has been ongoing for some time.

Quote:

The National Secular Society are concerned that many — maybe even the majority — of local councils in this country that start their meetings with Christian prayers. We think it is inappropriate that non-believers and those of other religions taking part in local democracy are put in the difficult and potentially embarrassing position of having to decide whether to participate or pointedly not participate.

More here:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/council-prayers.html

Including High Court court action:

Quote:

The papers have now been lodged at the High Court for the “Judicial Review between the Queen, on the Application of the National Secular Society, and Bideford Town Council”. The latter have also now been served the papers.]

http://www.secularism.org.uk/high-co...st-counci.html
-

26th January 2011, 05:37 AM	#1
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,568	Councillor walks out of Muslim prayers Just saw this story on TV. A Muslim imam* was invited to say prayers at the opening of the council meeting in Portsmouth; one of the councillors walked out. Quote: Portsmouth councillor walked out of a council meeting because an imam was asked to deliver an opening prayer. Conservative councillor Malcolm Hey left Tuesday night's Portsmouth City Council chamber while Sheikh Fazle Abbas Datoo was speaking. The imam, from the Al Mahdi mosque in Wickham, had been invited by the city's lord mayor, Paula Richards. Mr Hey said it was not appropriate for a Muslim to deliver prayers at the start of a full council meeting. Of course, what did not get raised, either by the councillors or the news reports, was why it was necessary to have any sort of prayers at all before a Council meeting. *I don't know if there's any other sort, but that's how he was described.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

26th January 2011, 05:41 AM	#2
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	grown up man fighting about who's imaginary friend is the real deal Such people run governments......
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

26th January 2011, 05:42 AM	#3
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,192	I don't like having to listen to prayers either but I don't put on a show when it happens.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

26th January 2011, 07:57 AM	#5
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,568	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda And now, thanks to that council person, their practice of prayers to open meetings can't possibly pass Constitutional muster. Which Constitution would that be?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

26th January 2011, 07:57 AM	#6
CurtC Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 4,758	It's in England, which of course doesn't have our First Amendment. In the US, they'd either have to stop with the Christian prayers, or have prayers from a variety of faiths and non-faith. Walking out was an offensive thing to do, but in England their government really is officially Christian.
	__________________ Is there a God? Find the answer at The Official God FAQ.

26th January 2011, 07:53 AM	#4
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	And now, thanks to that council person, their practice of prayers to open meetings can't possibly pass Constitutional muster.

26th January 2011, 07:59 AM	#7
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,619	Sorry for the assumption, we have Portsmouths too, and a common issue with town councils opening with prayers.

26th January 2011, 08:01 AM	#8
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,649	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda Sorry for the assumption, we have Portsmouths too, and a common issue with town councils opening with prayers. ain't that unconstitutional since 1948?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

26th January 2011, 08:19 AM	#9
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by DC ain't that unconstitutional since 1948? Not as far as I can tell (little case law specifically addresses municipal councils). Case law on graduation prayer suggests that it wouldn't be unconstitutional if it were vague and inclusive enough.

26th January 2011, 10:59 PM	#10
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,844	Originally Posted by CurtC or have prayers from a variety of ... non-faith. How does that work?

26th January 2011, 11:11 PM	#11
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,568	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda Sorry for the assumption, we have Portsmouths too, The original doesn't need qualification. Quote: and a common issue with town councils opening with prayers. Yes, the story certainly had a familiar ring to it. The situation in this country is contradictory. We have, in practice, a largely secular society, and yet it seems to be completely unquestioned that Christian prayers should open a council meeting. Churches also get a say in making local policies.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

26th January 2011, 11:25 PM	#12
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,545	Originally Posted by CurtC It's in England, which of course doesn't have our First Amendment. In the US, they'd either have to stop with the Christian prayers, or have prayers from a variety of faiths and non-faith. Walking out was an offensive thing to do, but in England their government really is officially Christian. It's officially Anglican, isn't it? Would the council member have walked out if an RC priest or a Methodist minister had been asked to deliver the prayer?
Lucian Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,545	__________________ skepticalhumanities.com virtualskeptics.com

27th January 2011, 06:13 AM	#13
BadBoy Muse Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 729	perhaps the guy who walked was an Athiest. Being an Athiest, it would actually peev me, maybe to the point of walking out. Jesus Christ, cant we keep religion out of official public affares? When wiil the world grow up.
BadBoy Muse Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 729	__________________ Go sell crazy someplace else we're all stocked up here

27th January 2011, 07:10 AM	#14
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,568	Originally Posted by BadBoy perhaps the guy who walked was an Athiest. Being an Athiest, it would actually peev me, maybe to the point of walking out. If so, why would he wait until a Muslim was invited to lead the prayers? As it happens, from the story he clearly isn't: Quote: Mr Hey, ward councillor for Copnor, is a founder member of the Grace Baptist Church in Copnor Road. "In a letter, and without any consultation, the lord mayor invited, and will invite, other religions to take part and I was not happy with that," he said. "I'm a Christian, not a Muslim, and I do not believe we are praying to the same god."
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

27th January 2011, 07:19 AM	#15
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,426	Originally Posted by zooterkin If so, why would he wait until a Muslim was invited to lead the prayers? As it happens, from the story he clearly isn't: Quote: ..."I'm a Christian, not a Muslim, and I do not believe we are praying to the same god." So, he believes that there ARE other gods?
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

27th January 2011, 07:20 AM	#16
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,447	Originally Posted by zooterkin If so, why would he wait until a Muslim was invited to lead the prayers? As it happens, from the story he clearly isn't: My imaginary magical friend is not the same as your imaginary magical friend.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

29th January 2011, 12:22 AM	#17
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,568	Originally Posted by Spindrift My imaginary magical friend is not the same as your imaginary magical friend. It depends, it appears. From a report in the local paper: Quote: Cllr Riches hopes to be able to invite Catholic and Buddhist religious leaders to read prayers at subsequent meetings. But Cllr Hey said: 'I will leave for prayers by Buddhists or Hindus. They don't worship the same God as us. I would stay for a Catholic or Jewish prayer, because they do.' The latest news is that the leader of the Council has asked for the councillor in question to be sacked. I'm pleased to see that in the comments at least a couple of people have asked why Council time is being spent in prayer meetings.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

29th January 2011, 05:59 AM	#18
Plutonium Scholar Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 67	Originally Posted by zooterkin The original doesn't need qualification. Yes, the story certainly had a familiar ring to it. The situation in this country is contradictory. We have, in practice, a largely secular society, and yet it seems to be completely unquestioned that Christian prayers should open a council meeting. Churches also get a say in making local policies. The position of religion in the UK is somewhat bizarre. There are four components to the country; in Wales and Northern Ireland there is no "established" religion; in Scotland, the Church of Scotland (Presbyterian/Calvinist) is the "established" church, and in England, the Church of England is the established church. The CofE is Anglican/Episcopalian, a mishmash of Protestant, Catholic and liberal elements. Twenty-six bishops of the Church of England sit in the House of Lords. I do not know of any other country in the world (except perhaps the Vatican) where clergy sit in the legislature by right of being clergymen. It is traditional for Parliament, and many other institutions, to open with prayers. Religious education is compulsory in schools, and there must also be a religious assembly every morning. By law, this must be of a basically Christian character (although this is frequently breached in practice). The monarch is forbidden by law from marrying a Roman Catholic. Only recently was the law against blasphemy repealed. In the seventies there was a major blasphemy case where somebody was prosecuted for publishing a poem that blasphemed Jesus. Personally, I believe in complete separation of church and state, as in France and the USA. The divisive nature of prayers is well illustrated by this example. What would councillor Hay think of a Muslim who walked out of a meeting because somebody gave a Christian prayer? Or does he maintain a double standard?
Plutonium Scholar Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 67

29th January 2011, 10:22 AM	#19
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by zooterkin Just saw this story on TV. A Muslim imam* was invited to say prayers at the opening of the council meeting in Portsmouth; one of the councillors walked out. Of course, what did not get raised, either by the councillors or the news reports, was why it was necessary to have any sort of prayers at all before a Council meeting. *I don't know if there's any other sort, but that's how he was described. . Here, prayer has been authorized before city council meetings, after some debate. Don't know if other-than-Christian prayers can be offered. ETA: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may...rayer-20100505
	Last edited by I Ratant; 29th January 2011 at 10:24 AM.

29th January 2011, 10:27 AM	#20
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by Lucian It's officially Anglican, isn't it? Would the council member have walked out if an RC priest or a Methodist minister had been asked to deliver the prayer? Due to an historical anomaly portsmouth has both catholic and CofE cathedrals. This doesn't appear to cause problems.

29th January 2011, 02:38 PM	#21
Rrose Selavy Stranded in Sub-Atomica Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,920	Seeing the thread title, I so wished it were an atheist who waliked out. That it wasn't, reading the report, just added to the irony/stupidity. Anyway here is the Uk National Secular Society's take on the issue which has been ongoing for some time. Quote: The National Secular Society are concerned that many — maybe even the majority — of local councils in this country that start their meetings with Christian prayers. We think it is inappropriate that non-believers and those of other religions taking part in local democracy are put in the difficult and potentially embarrassing position of having to decide whether to participate or pointedly not participate. More here: http://www.secularism.org.uk/council-prayers.html Including High Court court action: Quote: The papers have now been lodged at the High Court for the “Judicial Review between the Queen, on the Application of the National Secular Society, and Bideford Town Council”. The latter have also now been served the papers.] http://www.secularism.org.uk/high-co...st-counci.html -
	Last edited by Rrose Selavy; 29th January 2011 at 02:45 PM.