Clinton's response to the Egyptian protests

Undesired Walrus · 27th January 2011, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton

“our assessment is that the Egyptian Government is stable and is looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people..

..with respect to Egypt, which, as your question implied, like many countries in the region, has been experiencing demonstrations. We know that they’ve occurred not only in Cairo but around the country, and we’re monitoring that very closely. We support the fundamental right of expression and assembly for all people, and we urge that all parties exercise restraint and refrain from violence.”

Wimpish condemnation for a regime that is behaving like this and this

I know the US has a friend in the current regime for geopolitical reasons, but I thought Obama would uphold the statement he made in the campaign about another unpopular dictator:

Originally Posted by 2nd Presidential Debate

So I agree that we have to speak responsibly and we have to act responsibly. And the reason Pakistan -- the popular opinion of America had diminished in Pakistan was because we were supporting a dictator, Musharraf, had given him $10 billion over seven years, and he had suspended civil liberties. We were not promoting democracy.

This is the kind of policies that ultimately end up undermining our ability to fight the war on terrorism, and it will change when I'm president.

What happened to that?

PhantomWolf · 27th January 2011, 02:08 AM

Yeah because Police in more civilised countries never go beating up protesters.

Undesired Walrus · 27th January 2011, 02:13 AM

They don't ban social networking sites that's for sure.

Cleon · 27th January 2011, 02:16 AM

Silly Egyptians. Who needs democracy and civil rights when you have a perfectly good US ally running the country?

**** you, Hillary.

Undesired Walrus · 27th January 2011, 02:25 AM

Tear gas too.

PhantomWolf · 27th January 2011, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Tear gas too.

Wow, must be the first time that police have ever used tear gas to break up violent protests. Next you'll be telling us that they used water cannons too.

PhantomWolf · 27th January 2011, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Silly Egyptians. Who needs democracy and civil rights when you have a perfectly good US ally running the country?

**** you, Hillary.

Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police.

Undesired Walrus · 27th January 2011, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Wow, must be the first time that police have ever used tear gas to break up violent protests. Next you'll be telling us that they used water cannons too.

And shutting down free expression?

Cleon · 27th January 2011, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police.

It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing.

Childlike Empress · 27th January 2011, 04:36 AM

I always told the clowns in the anti-Chavez threads that i'll start taking them seriously if they show at least equal outrage over Mubarak, who does everything they feign to be worried Chavez might do in the future - since decades.

Epic hypocrisy.

Undesired Walrus · 27th January 2011, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police.

Isn't this essentially the French and US revolutions?

WildCat · 27th January 2011, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing.

Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all.

I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Cleon · 27th January 2011, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all.

I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Fortunately, the Egyptian people aren't buying into the "we must support Mubarak's dictatorship or the MB will get into power" malarkey. That excuse has worked very well keeping Mubarak in power all these years.

ANTPogo · 27th January 2011, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all.

I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

There are more options (and more likely results to these protests) than either of those two extremes. This isn't the American Revolution, but neither is it the Iranian Revolution.

Not yet, at least.

Travis · 27th January 2011, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Isn't this essentially the French and US revolutions?

More the French than the US one.

But protests don't do much. If you really want to accomplish anything you shouldn't be wasting time shouting slogans in the street you should be making preparations to physically seize the seats of power via force.

geni · 27th January 2011, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all.

I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

It looks rather like much of the Muslim Brotherhood's support is simply due to being the closest the place has to a meaningful opposition.

Undesired Walrus · 27th January 2011, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all.

I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Where is this statement going? Cleon says the Egyptian Government must go. Do you disagree?

PhantomWolf · 27th January 2011, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Where is this statement going? Cleon says the Egyptian Government must go. Do you disagree?

Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots?

And yes I know that Egyptian elections have extremely low turn out, but that squarely lies on the shoulders of those that don't exercise their right to vote.

Childlike Empress · 27th January 2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots?

And yes I know that Egyptian elections have extremely low turn out, but that squarely lies on the shoulders of those that don't exercise their right to vote.

LOL

WildCat · 27th January 2011, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Where is this statement going? Cleon says the Egyptian Government must go. Do you disagree?

I'm no supporter of Mubarak. But remember the circumstances under which he took power.

DC · 27th January 2011, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I'm no supporter of Mubarak. But remember the circumstances under which he took power.

ANTPogo · 27th January 2011, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots?

I sure don't.

But what has that got to do with the current Egyptian government, which is only marginally more democratically elected than Saddam's was?

applecorped · 27th January 2011, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing.

Are you a Tea Bagger?

Mycroft · 27th January 2011, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing.

So...who in Egypt do you support to take over?

PhantomWolf · 27th January 2011, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

I sure don't.

But what has that got to do with the current Egyptian government, which is only marginally more democratically elected than Saddam's was?

So would you rather there was a marginally democratic government who was making the governing of the country more secular and opening it up to more of the democratic processes, or the Muslim Brotherhood that want to run it under sharia law?

kellyb · 27th January 2011, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I'm no supporter of Mubarak. But remember the circumstances under which he took power.

Sure:
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archiv...0051224-1.html

PhantomWolf · 28th January 2011, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

So...who in Egypt do you support to take over?

I'd like to see El-Ghad get the support it needs to do that, but I don't believe that you can do such a thing through violence. Eygptians need to make an effort to actually get out and vote regardless of what the current government does. Only then do they have a legitimate claim for change.

Undesired Walrus · 28th January 2011, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots?

And yes I know that Egyptian elections have extremely low turn out, but that squarely lies on the shoulders of those that don't exercise their right to vote.

Egypt is a democracy?

Undesired Walrus · 28th January 2011, 02:38 AM

It's not like the Brotherhood are stamped out by Mubarak, they still run as Independents or under alternative names. As advocates of Freedom of Speech rightly say on this forum, you outlaw one, another springs up in its place.

And it is far from certain they would do well in free and fair elections:

Quote:

Egypt's secular opposition argues that the government stokes fear of the Brotherhood to quash real democratic change. "This is the myth that Mubarak has been selling for 30 years," says Ibrahim Issa, the former editor of the influential newspaper al-Dustour, who was recently dismissed because, he says, of his overt criticism of the regime. (The newspaper's owners say the dismissal was due to an internal dispute.) "He is using the Muslim Brotherhood as a scarecrow. Mubarak says, 'It's either me or the jihadists.' [It's] his only guarantee for staying in power."

..In numerical terms, it doesn't present much of a threat. Membership is in the low hundreds of thousands, and in a fair election, the Islamists would not be expected to win — in 2005, only 3% of the population voted for the Brotherhood. And some of those votes were in protest of an inept regime rather than wholehearted endorsements of the Islamist cause. "Many of the people who vote for the Muslim Brothers are doing it in order to vote against the National Democratic Party," says Sayed al-Badawi, the head of the Wafd, Egypt's oldest legal opposition party.

What's scary about the Muslim Brotherhood?

I remember several people here saying that when the UK Government outlawed Islam4Uk, all it did was boost their cause, recognition and support. The same is said in the article above:

Quote:

Legal recognition could diminish the Brothers' appeal, says human-rights activist Hossam Bahgat of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights: "Once you allow them into the political race, they become politicians, and they are judged as politicians."

Legal status would also undermine the Brotherhood's claim to victimhood.

PhantomWolf · 28th January 2011, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Egypt is a democracy?

Check the quote in your next post. I have already acknowledged that their elections are not up to western standards, but all Eygptians are entitled to vote in the elections. Most of them don't. Regardless of the intimidation, vote fixing and other things, if the population don't vote they are giving the current Government tacit approval.

Consider some of the changed happening in Zimbabwe after people got out and voted despite threats and intimidations. Yes it's going to take longer to fix that place, but they have made a few steps in the right direction and since the power sharing started, the economy has actually turned around showing growth while the rest of the world was going through resession (not that they could have gotten much lower.)

Undesired Walrus · 29th January 2011, 05:04 AM

So the Egyptian Government has shut down the Internet and all Mobile phone communication.

Does anyone still want to pretend this is a regime worth supporting?

Meadmaker · 29th January 2011, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police.

Well, yes.

How else are you going to do it, assuming there are no real elections?

ETA: I'm not saying that in this particular instance I think it's a good idea. Whatever government emerges after this round of protest and possible revolution may be worse than the current government. I just was noting that if you live in a dictatorial society, and you want to change policy, you will rarely have any success without throwing some petrol bombs at police.

Cleon · 29th January 2011, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

So the Egyptian Government has shut down the Internet and all Mobile phone communication.

Does anyone still want to pretend this is a regime worth supporting?

It's this bizarre circular logic:

"We must support a dictator like Mubarak, because as bad as he is he supports our ally, Israel."
Why is supporting Israel so important?
"Because it's the only democracy in the Middle East."
*Facepalm*

WildCat · 29th January 2011, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by DC

You do know he was assasinated by army officers who killed him for making peace with Israel, don't you?

I'm saying you don't know who the army supports or what kind of government would emerge from a post-Mubarak Egypt. Do you think another Israeli-Arab war would be an acceptable outcome? Or an Egypt that sends arms to Hamas?

WildCat · 29th January 2011, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Sure:
http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archiv...0051224-1.html

Undesired Walrus · 29th January 2011, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Cleon

It's this bizarre circular logic:

"We must support a dictator like Mubarak, because as bad as he is he supports our ally, Israel."
Why is supporting Israel so important?
"Because it's the only democracy in the Middle East."
*Facepalm*

How far does it go before we no longer tolerate the enemy of our enemy? Does a regime like the Taliban get billions in funding each year because it is effective at preventing a communist takeover?

Notice the Republicans who were criticising Obama for being almost silent over the Iranian election protests aren't doing the same regarding his silence over Mubarak.

Thunder · 29th January 2011, 07:38 AM

Obama should stay neutral...and let Clinton show support for the protestors.

Undesired Walrus · 29th January 2011, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

You do know he was assasinated by army officers who killed him for making peace with Israel, don't you?

I'm saying you don't know who the army supports or what kind of government would emerge from a post-Mubarak Egypt. Do you think another Israeli-Arab war would be an acceptable outcome? Or an Egypt that sends arms to Hamas?

I'm sure a CBT therapist would advice you that you cannot live your life on 'what-ifs' and excessive catastophising. It's the same kind of non-reasoning that stops an agoraphobe from leaving the house ("What if I have the same panic attack I did last time? What if I faint? What if").

PhantomWolf · 29th January 2011, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Well, yes.

How else are you going to do it, assuming there are no real elections?

ETA: I'm not saying that in this particular instance I think it's a good idea. Whatever government emerges after this round of protest and possible revolution may be worse than the current government. I just was noting that if you live in a dictatorial society, and you want to change policy, you will rarely have any success without throwing some petrol bombs at police.

My main issue is that there are elections, even if they are weighted in favour of the Govt. It doesn't matter that they are weighted though, because most people don't vote, and last year a lot of the opposition partys boycotted them.

I'd have more support for them if they got all their supporters to the polls and showed that there was an overwhelming demand for legitimate change, and Mubarak rigged it to stop it from occuring, or simply ignored the election results.

Since this didn't happen, the evidence isn't there that the protesters actually have the majority on their side, and that this isn't a case of a violent minority using extreme tactics to take down a, no matter how poorly, duely elected Government.

Refusing to use elections and then turning to violence to get your way is not acceptable in my beliefs. Violence is only acceptable after all other peaceful methods have been tried and failed, and that has not been done.

Thunder · 29th January 2011, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

You do know he was assasinated by army officers who killed him for making peace with Israel, don't you?

I'm saying you don't know who the army supports or what kind of government would emerge from a post-Mubarak Egypt. Do you think another Israeli-Arab war would be an acceptable outcome? Or an Egypt that sends arms to Hamas?

are you suggesting the USA support the current Egyptian dictator simply because its "good for the ~~Jews~~ Israel"?

27th January 2011, 02:04 AM	#1
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	Clinton's response to the Egyptian protests Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton “our assessment is that the Egyptian Government is stable and is looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people.. ..with respect to Egypt, which, as your question implied, like many countries in the region, has been experiencing demonstrations. We know that they’ve occurred not only in Cairo but around the country, and we’re monitoring that very closely. We support the fundamental right of expression and assembly for all people, and we urge that all parties exercise restraint and refrain from violence.” Wimpish condemnation for a regime that is behaving like this and this I know the US has a friend in the current regime for geopolitical reasons, but I thought Obama would uphold the statement he made in the campaign about another unpopular dictator: Originally Posted by 2nd Presidential Debate So I agree that we have to speak responsibly and we have to act responsibly. And the reason Pakistan -- the popular opinion of America had diminished in Pakistan was because we were supporting a dictator, Musharraf, had given him $10 billion over seven years, and he had suspended civil liberties. We were not promoting democracy. This is the kind of policies that ultimately end up undermining our ability to fight the war on terrorism, and it will change when I'm president. What happened to that?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th January 2011, 02:08 AM	#2
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Yeah because Police in more civilised countries never go beating up protesters.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

27th January 2011, 02:13 AM	#3
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	They don't ban social networking sites that's for sure.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th January 2011, 02:16 AM	#4
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,537	Silly Egyptians. Who needs democracy and civil rights when you have a perfectly good US ally running the country? **** you, Hillary.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th January 2011, 02:25 AM	#5
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	Tear gas too.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th January 2011, 03:54 AM	#6
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Tear gas too. Wow, must be the first time that police have ever used tear gas to break up violent protests. Next you'll be telling us that they used water cannons too.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

27th January 2011, 03:57 AM	#7
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Originally Posted by Cleon Silly Egyptians. Who needs democracy and civil rights when you have a perfectly good US ally running the country? **** you, Hillary. Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

27th January 2011, 04:01 AM	#8
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Wow, must be the first time that police have ever used tear gas to break up violent protests. Next you'll be telling us that they used water cannons too. And shutting down free expression?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th January 2011, 04:17 AM	#9
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,537	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police. It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th January 2011, 04:36 AM	#10
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,861	I always told the clowns in the anti-Chavez threads that i'll start taking them seriously if they show at least equal outrage over Mubarak, who does everything they feign to be worried Chavez might do in the future - since decades. Epic hypocrisy.
	__________________ Breaking The Set Last edited by Childlike Empress; 27th January 2011 at 04:38 AM.

27th January 2011, 04:43 AM	#11
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police. Isn't this essentially the French and US revolutions?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th January 2011, 07:04 AM	#12
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,146	Originally Posted by Cleon It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing. Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy.

27th January 2011, 07:33 AM	#13
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,537	Originally Posted by WildCat Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy. Fortunately, the Egyptian people aren't buying into the "we must support Mubarak's dictatorship or the MB will get into power" malarkey. That excuse has worked very well keeping Mubarak in power all these years.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

27th January 2011, 08:29 AM	#14
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,476	Originally Posted by WildCat Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy. There are more options (and more likely results to these protests) than either of those two extremes. This isn't the American Revolution, but neither is it the Iranian Revolution. Not yet, at least.

27th January 2011, 01:51 PM	#15
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,961	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Isn't this essentially the French and US revolutions? More the French than the US one. But protests don't do much. If you really want to accomplish anything you shouldn't be wasting time shouting slogans in the street you should be making preparations to physically seize the seats of power via force.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

27th January 2011, 01:58 PM	#16
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,583	Originally Posted by WildCat Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy. It looks rather like much of the Muslim Brotherhood's support is simply due to being the closest the place has to a meaningful opposition.

27th January 2011, 04:04 PM	#17
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	Originally Posted by WildCat Yes, I'm sure that a revolution in Egypt would produce a liberal democracy, and the Muslim Brotherhood would have no influence at all. I also believe in the Tooth Fairy. Where is this statement going? Cleon says the Egyptian Government must go. Do you disagree?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

27th January 2011, 04:18 PM	#18
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Where is this statement going? Cleon says the Egyptian Government must go. Do you disagree? Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots? And yes I know that Egyptian elections have extremely low turn out, but that squarely lies on the shoulders of those that don't exercise their right to vote.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

27th January 2011, 04:23 PM	#19
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots? And yes I know that Egyptian elections have extremely low turn out, but that squarely lies on the shoulders of those that don't exercise their right to vote. LOL
	__________________ Breaking The Set

27th January 2011, 04:45 PM	#20
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,146	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Where is this statement going? Cleon says the Egyptian Government must go. Do you disagree? I'm no supporter of Mubarak. But remember the circumstances under which he took power.

27th January 2011, 04:54 PM	#21
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Originally Posted by WildCat I'm no supporter of Mubarak. But remember the circumstances under which he took power.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

27th January 2011, 05:07 PM	#22
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,476	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots? I sure don't. But what has that got to do with the current Egyptian government, which is only marginally more democratically elected than Saddam's was?

27th January 2011, 05:11 PM	#23
applecorped Rotten to the Core Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 10,690	Originally Posted by Cleon It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing. Are you a Tea Bagger?
	__________________ All You Need Is Love.

27th January 2011, 11:29 PM	#24
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,118	Originally Posted by Cleon It's not Egyptian government policy that needs to change, it's the Egyptian government. A little revolution, now and then, is a good thing. So...who in Egypt do you support to take over?
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

27th January 2011, 11:46 PM	#25
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Originally Posted by ANTPogo I sure don't. But what has that got to do with the current Egyptian government, which is only marginally more democratically elected than Saddam's was? So would you rather there was a marginally democratic government who was making the governing of the country more secular and opening it up to more of the democratic processes, or the Muslim Brotherhood that want to run it under sharia law?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

27th January 2011, 11:57 PM	#26
kellyb Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Tennessee. Ain't you jealous? Posts: 4,417	Originally Posted by WildCat I'm no supporter of Mubarak. But remember the circumstances under which he took power. Sure: http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archiv...0051224-1.html
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell

28th January 2011, 12:14 AM	#27
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Originally Posted by Mycroft So...who in Egypt do you support to take over? I'd like to see El-Ghad get the support it needs to do that, but I don't believe that you can do such a thing through violence. Eygptians need to make an effort to actually get out and vote regardless of what the current government does. Only then do they have a legitimate claim for change.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

28th January 2011, 02:20 AM	#28
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Do you believe that democratically elected Governments ahould be toppled by violence rather then ballots? And yes I know that Egyptian elections have extremely low turn out, but that squarely lies on the shoulders of those that don't exercise their right to vote. Egypt is a democracy?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

28th January 2011, 02:38 AM	#29
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	It's not like the Brotherhood are stamped out by Mubarak, they still run as Independents or under alternative names. As advocates of Freedom of Speech rightly say on this forum, you outlaw one, another springs up in its place. And it is far from certain they would do well in free and fair elections: Quote: Egypt's secular opposition argues that the government stokes fear of the Brotherhood to quash real democratic change. "This is the myth that Mubarak has been selling for 30 years," says Ibrahim Issa, the former editor of the influential newspaper al-Dustour, who was recently dismissed because, he says, of his overt criticism of the regime. (The newspaper's owners say the dismissal was due to an internal dispute.) "He is using the Muslim Brotherhood as a scarecrow. Mubarak says, 'It's either me or the jihadists.' [It's] his only guarantee for staying in power." ..In numerical terms, it doesn't present much of a threat. Membership is in the low hundreds of thousands, and in a fair election, the Islamists would not be expected to win — in 2005, only 3% of the population voted for the Brotherhood. And some of those votes were in protest of an inept regime rather than wholehearted endorsements of the Islamist cause. "Many of the people who vote for the Muslim Brothers are doing it in order to vote against the National Democratic Party," says Sayed al-Badawi, the head of the Wafd, Egypt's oldest legal opposition party. What's scary about the Muslim Brotherhood? I remember several people here saying that when the UK Government outlawed Islam4Uk, all it did was boost their cause, recognition and support. The same is said in the article above: Quote: Legal recognition could diminish the Brothers' appeal, says human-rights activist Hossam Bahgat of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights: "Once you allow them into the political race, they become politicians, and they are judged as politicians." Legal status would also undermine the Brotherhood's claim to victimhood.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 28th January 2011 at 02:40 AM.

28th January 2011, 03:12 AM	#30
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,966	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Egypt is a democracy? Check the quote in your next post. I have already acknowledged that their elections are not up to western standards, but all Eygptians are entitled to vote in the elections. Most of them don't. Regardless of the intimidation, vote fixing and other things, if the population don't vote they are giving the current Government tacit approval. Consider some of the changed happening in Zimbabwe after people got out and voted despite threats and intimidations. Yes it's going to take longer to fix that place, but they have made a few steps in the right direction and since the power sharing started, the economy has actually turned around showing growth while the rest of the world was going through resession (not that they could have gotten much lower.)
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

29th January 2011, 05:04 AM	#31
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,894	So the Egyptian Government has shut down the Internet and all Mobile phone communication. Does anyone still want to pretend this is a regime worth supporting?
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

29th January 2011, 07:08 AM	#32
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Yes because we all know that the best way to change Government policy is to roam about the streets in packs destroying property, setting cars alight and throwing petrol bombs at the police. Well, yes. How else are you going to do it, assuming there are no real elections? ETA: I'm not saying that in this particular instance I think it's a good idea. Whatever government emerges after this round of protest and possible revolution may be worse than the current government. I just was noting that if you live in a dictatorial society, and you want to change policy, you will rarely have any success without throwing some petrol bombs at police.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves." Last edited by Meadmaker; 29th January 2011 at 07:31 AM.

29th January 2011, 07:23 AM	#33
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,537	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus So the Egyptian Government has shut down the Internet and all Mobile phone communication. Does anyone still want to pretend this is a regime worth supporting? It's this bizarre circular logic: "We must support a dictator like Mubarak, because as bad as he is he supports our ally, Israel." Why is supporting Israel so important? "Because it's the only democracy in the Middle East." Facepalm
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

29th January 2011, 07:28 AM	#34
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,146	Originally Posted by DC You do know he was assasinated by army officers who killed him for making peace with Israel, don't you? I'm saying you don't know who the army supports or what kind of government would emerge from a post-Mubarak Egypt. Do you think another Israeli-Arab war would be an acceptable outcome? Or an Egypt that sends arms to Hamas?

29th January 2011, 07:30 AM	#35
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,146	Originally Posted by kellyb Sure: http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archiv...0051224-1.html