I am angry in a way you can't even begin to understand

Travis · 17th February 2011, 05:40 AM

Florida governor proves he is an idiot.

I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings.

How can these people be so stupid? Seriously!

Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration.

Spindrift · 17th February 2011, 05:43 AM

I was listening to NPR this morning and one person suggested that it might a case of "If Obama's fer it, I'm agin it!"

Thunder · 17th February 2011, 05:53 AM

ah....more rail money going to California.

very good.

TragicMonkey · 17th February 2011, 05:54 AM

Dude, calm down. You're on the other side of the continent. No need to take it personal.

Tricky · 17th February 2011, 06:10 AM

While the Florida Governor is most certainly an idiot, at an enviromentalist level, I cannot but be relieved that the headlong move to turn Florida into a giant tourist metroplex is a little bit thwarted. From reading the writings of Carl Hiaasen and others, I discover that Florida, a unique environment with many species that live nowhere else in the world, is quickly being destroyed by developers who want to drain the swamps and pour the concrete over the natural environment. The Florida Panther, the largest native carnivore in the US, is probably a goner. Manatees are at death's door. But waterfront condos have never been healthier, and Disney is spreading its tentacles every wider.

So in my opinion it is a stupid act that may result in some good. Even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes.

Undesired Walrus · 17th February 2011, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Florida governor proves he is an idiot.

I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings.

How can these people be so stupid? Seriously!

Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration.

Plasterer comes round to fix fist shaped hole in wall of Travis' Californian home.

Plasterer: "What caused this then?"
Travis: "The Governor of Florida rejected high speed rail!"
*Plasterer backs away slowly*

pgwenthold · 17th February 2011, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Tricky

While the Florida Governor is most certainly an idiot, at an enviromentalist level, I cannot but be relieved that the headlong move to turn Florida into a giant tourist metroplex

I need that little emoticon where the eyes pop out of ones head.

Are you honestly suggesting that Florida is NOT ALREADY "a giant tourist metroplex"?

sarge · 17th February 2011, 06:55 AM

Congrats to the people of Florida. The Disney Train (from no where, to no where) that would certianly have cost the taxpayers considerably will have to suck some other state dry.*

*Not really. I don't actually know enough about the subject to provide meaningful commentary. I just didn't want to miss the opportunity to allow a drywall contractor to make a little money.

Beerina · 17th February 2011, 07:04 AM

Good for him. Part of the problem in America is the assumption we're all soulless bastards who leap to suck up things thrown at us from Washington, because it's there, even as Washington spending is out of control.

Besides, if Disney wants rail from Tampa, they can pay for it themselves. Just as if the rich state of California, no stranger to drooling voters running up their credit cards, and the rich city of Las Vegas want a connection, they can pay for it themselves.

Actually, Vegas should pay for it.

Actually, the Vegas casinos should pay for it. Voluntarily.

TraneWreck · 17th February 2011, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Florida governor proves he is an idiot.

I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings.

How can these people be so stupid? Seriously!

Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration.

I agree. I really, really do not understand why trains are now a partisan issue.

Setting aside Tricky's point about the environment (trust me, Floridians will figure out a way to destroy it with or without trains), what possible reason is there to oppose this? Here's money so your state can have lots of jobs and then a good way to travel around.

Hell, trains are such a traditionally American institution that you'd think people would be excited about it. It's bizarre.

Foolmewunz · 17th February 2011, 07:19 AM

The Mouse is gonna be pissed! How's the invisible empire of the costumed geeks doing these days, politically? I know it'd cause Walt to turn over in his grave, but I'd think they'll throw their PAC support to whomever is running against the governor in the next election. (Well, maybe the can fund someone in a primary and keep their red blooded patriotism in tact.)

Travis · 17th February 2011, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Good for him. Part of the problem in America is the assumption we're all soulless bastards who leap to suck up things thrown at us from Washington, because it's there, even as Washington spending is out of control.

Besides, if Disney wants rail from Tampa, they can pay for it themselves. Just as if the rich state of California, no stranger to drooling voters running up their credit cards, and the rich city of Las Vegas want a connection, they can pay for it themselves.

Actually, Vegas should pay for it.

Actually, the Vegas casinos should pay for it. Voluntarily.

And who pays for the massive subsidies that highways get? Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass? Why does no one object to the massive subsidies to the airlines and airports? Why is rail the only mode of transportation that everyone thinks must be profitable?

Everyone calls this the Disney Train and that just pisses me off. The real benefit was to the people stuck on Interstate 4 between the two cities. I went over all the designs for this train proposal end to end (about a terrabyte of PDFs) and the whole concept was quite sound from everything I saw. It was anchored in two major transportation hubs on either end, required minimal viaducts and no tunnels. Also all the property was already owned by the state.

But the real problem here is that high speed rail is being turned into a blue/red issue. If Republican's keep opposing it everywhere for no good reason except that Obama likes it then this country is screwed.

Gas will be $5 a gallon soon. Our highways were past design capacity decades ago. Then there are the environmental implications of roads and planes. For all those reasons we need to be building a nationwide network of electrified passenger railways RIGHT NOW! If we don't it will be our ass when the economy grinds to halt as the aging infrastructure--overused, obsolete, too expensive to expand and damaging to the environment--collapses outright.

And this need not be a zero sum game. Nothing says that high speed rail will kill Detroit or roads altogether. France, Korea, Germany, Taiwan and Italy have model high speed rail systems but are also modernizing their highways. And with many routes now covered by rail the airlines can concentrate on longer haul flights.

whatthebutlersaw · 17th February 2011, 07:23 AM

Historically, investment in train networks have always resulted in increased prosperity for the affected area. I guess the Florida governor wants to keep the constituency back economically.

My personal opinion is that a healthy infrastructure that provides the work force with increased mobility is the enemy of At Will Employment, because it provides increased opportunities and threatens the feudal status quo.

Of course, as a rule, an educated and mobile work force is exactly the kind of thing that builds a state's prosperity. You'd expect individual business interests not to care about that, but the state's, in question, governor?

But what do I know? I'm just a code monkey. I don't think I will ever understand American politics.

BobTheCoward · 17th February 2011, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

And who pays for the massive subsidies that highways get? Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass? Why does no one object to the massive subsidies to the airlines and airports? Why is rail the only mode of transportation that everyone thinks must be profitable?

Everyone calls this the Disney Train and that just pisses me off. The real benefit was to the people stuck on Interstate 4 between the two cities. I went over all the designs for this train proposal end to end (about a terrabyte of PDFs) and the whole concept was quite sound from everything I saw. It was anchored in two major transportation hubs on either end, required minimal viaducts and no tunnels. Also all the property was already owned by the state.

But the real problem here is that high speed rail is being turned into a blue/red issue. If Republican's keep opposing it everywhere for no good reason except that Obama likes it then this country is screwed.

Gas will be $5 a gallon soon. Our highways were past design capacity decades ago. Then there are the environmental implications of roads and planes. For all those reasons we need to be building a nationwide network of electrified passenger railways RIGHT NOW! If we don't it will be our ass when the economy grinds to halt as the aging infrastructure--overused, obsolete, too expensive to expand and damaging to the environment--collapses outright.

And this need not be a zero sum game. Nothing says that high speed rail will kill Detroit or roads altogether. France, Korea, Germany, Taiwan and Italy have model high speed rail systems but are also modernizing their highways. And with many routes now covered by rail the airlines can concentrate on longer haul flights.

What I am about to say may seem I oppose your idea, but I do not. After that post, I feel a major question comes up.

Highways are a good target for subsidies because they are private goods. Railways are rivalry and excludable. If it is such a good idea, what private companies are willing to build it privately without subsidy?

Think about it. You have this wonderfully compelling argument for it. The only barrier is convincing Florida to let you use the land. But you could probably pay a fee. There appears that there is no reason Travis INC couldn't raise the capital for the project privately. Why isn't someone else making it happen?

Travis · 17th February 2011, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

I agree. I really, really do not understand why trains are now a partisan issue.

Setting aside Tricky's point about the environment (trust me, Floridians will figure out a way to destroy it with or without trains), what possible reason is there to oppose this? Here's money so your state can have lots of jobs and then a good way to travel around.

Hell, trains are such a traditionally American institution that you'd think people would be excited about it. It's bizarre.

Florida's governor's chief adviser is from the Reason Foundation which hates trains because they think it threatens big oil and auto manufacturers.

They spread lies like "Americans don't ride trains" which any look at statics can be shown to be false. Hell in California the problem with our trains is not enough capacity or lines (most of the rail lines in California are owned by Union Pacific which hates passenger rail) between key centers. People want to ride the train here but the trains are nowhere to be found. So now we're trying to build them. But California's plan is contingent on 25% of the funding coming from the Federal government (unlike the Florida plan where 90% was coming from the Feds). So seeing this turn into a partisan issue clouds the future. And for that reason I hoped Florida's plan would go forth. So that it wouldn't just be a thing that only California is doing that ignorant Congresscritters can then defund in order to show those "hippie pot smoking Left Coast Liberals" that Red America loves cars and only cars.

Travis · 17th February 2011, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

What I am about to say may seem I oppose your idea, but I do not. After that post, I feel a major question comes up.

Highways are a good target for subsidies because they are private goods. Railways are rivalry and excludable. If it is such a good idea, what private companies are willing to build it privately without subsidy?

Think about it. You have this wonderfully compelling argument for it. The only barrier is convincing Florida to let you use the land. But you could probably pay a fee. There appears that there is no reason Travis INC couldn't raise the capital for the project privately. Why isn't someone else making it happen?

No private company has that kind of capital. The California system will cost about $70 billion at full buildout. The Florida one would be much cheaper and may get a private investor provided the cost of construction materials goes down.

But that's beside the point. We shouldn't be building these things to be profitable in the short term. They should be built to move the citizens of the country around in a way that doesn't mortgage the future environmentally or financially in the long term (like after oil prices inevitably sore). Yes they cost a lot of build initially. But their capacity for passenger movements is absurd.

In California it was analyzed to estimate how much it would cost to expand highways and airports to move the same number of people that high speed rail can. The result: $100-200 billion. Widening CA-99 would cost $25 billion alone. One whole new airport would have to be built in the Bay Area and LA.

Corsair 115 · 17th February 2011, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tricky

But waterfront condos have never been healthier...

Hmmm, given the frequency with which hurricanes occur in that part of the world, I would question the wisdom of building condos on the waterfront...

Thunder · 17th February 2011, 12:29 PM

My sister loves to tell me about the existing commuter railroad system that used to exist in Marin Cty and other areas in Northern Cali., and how the auto industry had it taken down.

Newtons Bit · 17th February 2011, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

My sister loves to tell me about the existing commuter railroad system that used to exist in Marin Cty and other areas in Northern Cali., and how the auto industry had it taken down.

Bring back the trollys!

And some trollops too.

Cylinder · 17th February 2011, 02:20 PM

So what is the benefit of the high speed rail system and cost of the project. I'll have to dig up some threads, but I have a distinct memory of these kinds of projects being fairly controversial in the past at least from the perspective of cost v. benefit.

I don't know that I'be formed an opinion on the subject other than thinking that it's time to discard the "free money" attitude that seems to pervade these large-scale federal projects.

It was nice to see Congress scrap the F135 alternate engine project for the Joint Strike Fighter this week.

rwguinn · 17th February 2011, 02:24 PM

You're right.
I cannot even begin to understand why this would make you angry, all the way across the damn country...

BenBurch · 17th February 2011, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

ah....more rail money going to California.

very good.

We'll take it in Illinois, too.

BenBurch · 17th February 2011, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

...

They spread lies like "Americans don't ride trains"

...

In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak.

Over 700,000 riders.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead

BenBurch · 17th February 2011, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

...

Why isn't someone else making it happen?

Give me the power to sieze right-of-way under the most favorable possible circumstances (which government has,) exemption from NIMBY suits, and the ability to set fares any way I like, and I will find the financing for a totally private high speed rail network.

Cylinder · 17th February 2011, 02:33 PM

So what is the benefit of the high speed rail system and cost of the project. I'll have to dig up some threads, but I have a distinct memory of these kinds of projects being fairly controversial in the past at least from the perspective of cost v. benefit.

I don't know that I'be formed an opinion on the subject other than thinking that it's time to discard the "free money" attitude that seems to pervade these large-scale federal projects.

It was nice to see Congress scrap the F135 alternate engine project for the Joint Strike Fighter this week.

WildCat · 17th February 2011, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass?

Highways are a necessity, passenger railroads are a luxury. And an expensive luxury at that.

Thunder · 17th February 2011, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

We'll take it in Illinois, too.

it may also go to NY/NJ as well.

we want 2 new rail tunnels under the Hudson.

fuelair · 17th February 2011, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

Florida governor proves he is an idiot.

I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings.

How can these people be so stupid? Seriously!

Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration.

Since he is either a fool who knew nothing about the companies he ran or a criminal who helped them steal funds from the gov't re: healthcare. And has sealed indictments (no trial yet - wish they would arrest and try him asap - but) and is a foul thing of evil, I am certainly with you on that.

I guess the hsr people didn't offer him enough.

sarge · 17th February 2011, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak.

Over 700,000 riders.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead

So, how profitable was Amtrak last Thanksgiving?

Grizzly Adams · 17th February 2011, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings.

So that whole "civility" thing after the Giffords shooting is... gone, I guess.

Relax, kid. It's a train. How cracked up does someone have to be to be "ashamed" to call a human being someone who is against building a train line?

And you're right, I can't even begin to understand your anger.

Because your anger is insane.

WildCat · 17th February 2011, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

We'll take it in Illinois, too.

You do realize the feds pay only a portion, don't you? That's why all the states are turning it down. They'll have to come up with billions, and it's doubtful they'll ever see a return on that money.

I say let California be the guinea pig. If it works there we can look to build in other places. But if it's a white elephant that just sucks up tax dollars we can be glad we didn't go all-in before the flop.

Thunder · 17th February 2011, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings.

wow

WildCat · 17th February 2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak.

Over 700,000 riders.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead

I bet every one of those 2.7% just wanted to avoid the airline's nudie scans. Amtrak could really boost their numbers if the TSA made you get a body cavity search to fly!

Newtons Bit · 17th February 2011, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak.

Over 700,000 riders.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead

Wow, that's almost* a tenth of what the NYC metro does in a typical weekday.

It's also under half* of what the airlines do on a typical weekday. But the average airline trip is about 4 times longer than the average Amtrak ride**. (If my sources and guestimation math is to be believed)

Amtrak is currently receiving $2.6 Billion in subsidies each year. And it's been in the federal dole since 1971. It's not economical. Using Amtrak as some sort of example of how fantastic high-speed rail will be is ludicrious at best.

*but not quite.
**feel free to modify how awesome the NYC Metro is by the average ride distance.

Region Rat · 17th February 2011, 04:45 PM

I think it may be too late for trains to take over the US. I just read a Slate article on path dependence and lock-in that I think applies very well to train travel.

At one time, we had a rail system that was used, however primitive it was. Auto travel was growing, but roads were poor and people still took trains across the country. The path dependence came in due to Pres. Eisenhower. If Eisenhower had come out in the 50's and said "The US will have the premier rail system in the world" instead of the best highway system in the world, we would be where Europe is. We would be able to hop on a train in most any city and get to any other city. It's too late now. We spent our dollars on roads, and that's what we have. Our culture is built around cars and trucks and roads, and with the budget problem we face today, it makes no sense to spend the next 50 years building a rail system.

Personally, I would love to see a convenient, inexpensive rail travel system, and I sure would like to see cargo transportation move from roads to rail, but does anyone think the very large trucking industry would stand still for that?

The cost to put in little point to point systems in isolated parts of the country for billions of dollars seems like a waste to me, unless they were part of a comprehensive plan that would include the entire country. I have not seen that plan yet.

Newtons Bit · 17th February 2011, 05:08 PM

New Mexico recently completed a commuter rail network that runs from Belen, north through Albuquerque and to Santa Fe. It cost ~ $400 million to build and, according to the FY 2011 budget, it sees about 1.5 million passengers a year. The operating budget is currently about $22 million a year. The cost of an average trip is about $18 and the average fee per trip is $2.35.

It's a waste of money. A giant waste of money.

Source - http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S1829400.shtml

I'm trying to get a hold of the NM DoT budget for 2010 or 2011 so that I can verify KOB's numbers. Unfortunately, my google fu is not strong enough or they don't put it online any more. Given Ex-Governor Richardson's penchant for hiding budget items, I'm thinking it's the latter.

dtugg · 17th February 2011, 05:14 PM

I think the US has too low of a population density for high speed rail to be feasible on a national scale. It might be feasible for some routes, like say San Diego to San Fransisco. But if that is such a great idea, the locals can pay for it themselves.

leftysergeant · 17th February 2011, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

And who pays for the massive subsidies that highways get? Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass? Why does no one object to the massive subsidies to the airlines and airports? Why is rail the only mode of transportation that everyone thinks must be profitable?

The idea that they should be profitable is even more absurd when one considers that thbe rail roads were built on a Federal initiative for the purpose of improving the ecconomic health of the country. Then the robber barons sucked bazillions out of it all and started whining about having to pay taxes on what they earned.

Quote:

Gas will be $5 a gallon soon. Our highways were past design capacity decades ago. Then there are the environmental implications of roads and planes. For all those reasons we need to be building a nationwide network of electrified passenger railways RIGHT NOW! If we don't it will be our ass when the economy grinds to halt as the aging infrastructure--overused, obsolete, too expensive to expand and damaging to the environment--collapses outright.

And if idiot Republcons block it in one state, it means that other states governed by grown-ups can't build their segment, either.

theprestige · 17th February 2011, 05:39 PM

I've lived in Sao Paulo, one of the world's great megalopolises. It had a rudimentary subway system, but about 17 different private bus companies. Between the two, public transportation was trivial to find and cheap to use, and got you pretty much everywhere in the city.

I've lived in Silicon Valley. Not a megalopolis, more an extended suburban sprawl punctuated by the occasional downtown urban cluster. No subway, either. But it did have a fairly extensive network of light rail, bus, and commuter rail systems. Again, public transportation was cheap and easy, and got you most everywhere.

Now I live in San Diego county. Which, compared to the southern San Fransisco Bay Area, has almost nothing in the way of public transportation. An anemic bus system; a laughable downtown-only light rail system; and a couple over-priced, under-serving commuter rail and light rail arteries.

I could not care less about high-speed rail. Forget commuting hundreds of miles for whatever. That's what planes are for, and planes I got, in spades.

What I need is a convenient way to commute 20 miles. I'd love to see every dollar earmarked by the feds for high-speed rail returned to the taxpayers, and to see SANDAG's share spent on local commuter rail.

leftysergeant · 17th February 2011, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Highways are a necessity, passenger railroads are a luxury. And an expensive luxury at that.

No, they aren't. We need an alternative to flying for those who do not drive. Rail can run in weather that will ground almost all aircraft.

We are also just about out of land on which to build freeways. You see, there is this problem with freeways. THEY ATTRACT MORE TRAFFIC. Then you have more housing sprawl and peoople have to drive farther just to get to work.

You don't just make an off-ramp from the train where you feel you could make on just to drive up the value of a political contributor's realestate holdings.

That may be part of what the schmuck had in mind when he turned the money down.

17th February 2011, 05:40 AM	#1
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	I am angry in a way you can't even begin to understand Florida governor proves he is an idiot. I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings. How can these people be so stupid? Seriously! Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

17th February 2011, 05:43 AM	#2
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,445	I was listening to NPR this morning and one person suggested that it might a case of "If Obama's fer it, I'm agin it!"
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

17th February 2011, 05:54 AM	#4
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,061	Dude, calm down. You're on the other side of the continent. No need to take it personal.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

17th February 2011, 06:13 AM	#6
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,882	Originally Posted by Travis Florida governor proves he is an idiot. I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings. How can these people be so stupid? Seriously! Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration. Plasterer comes round to fix fist shaped hole in wall of Travis' Californian home. Plasterer: "What caused this then?" Travis: "The Governor of Florida rejected high speed rail!" Plasterer backs away slowly
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

17th February 2011, 06:52 AM	#7
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,066	Originally Posted by Tricky While the Florida Governor is most certainly an idiot, at an enviromentalist level, I cannot but be relieved that the headlong move to turn Florida into a giant tourist metroplex I need that little emoticon where the eyes pop out of ones head. Are you honestly suggesting that Florida is NOT ALREADY "a giant tourist metroplex"?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

17th February 2011, 05:53 AM	#3
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	ah....more rail money going to California. very good.

17th February 2011, 06:10 AM	#5
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,345	While the Florida Governor is most certainly an idiot, at an enviromentalist level, I cannot but be relieved that the headlong move to turn Florida into a giant tourist metroplex is a little bit thwarted. From reading the writings of Carl Hiaasen and others, I discover that Florida, a unique environment with many species that live nowhere else in the world, is quickly being destroyed by developers who want to drain the swamps and pour the concrete over the natural environment. The Florida Panther, the largest native carnivore in the US, is probably a goner. Manatees are at death's door. But waterfront condos have never been healthier, and Disney is spreading its tentacles every wider. So in my opinion it is a stupid act that may result in some good. Even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes.

17th February 2011, 06:55 AM	#8
sarge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 2,325	Congrats to the people of Florida. The Disney Train (from no where, to no where) that would certianly have cost the taxpayers considerably will have to suck some other state dry.* *Not really. I don't actually know enough about the subject to provide meaningful commentary. I just didn't want to miss the opportunity to allow a drywall contractor to make a little money.
	__________________ I'm a not-so-strict constructionist, fiscally conservative, social liberal. Exactly which party represents me?

17th February 2011, 07:04 AM	#9
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Good for him. Part of the problem in America is the assumption we're all soulless bastards who leap to suck up things thrown at us from Washington, because it's there, even as Washington spending is out of control. Besides, if Disney wants rail from Tampa, they can pay for it themselves. Just as if the rich state of California, no stranger to drooling voters running up their credit cards, and the rich city of Las Vegas want a connection, they can pay for it themselves. Actually, Vegas should pay for it. Actually, the Vegas casinos should pay for it. Voluntarily.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

17th February 2011, 07:09 AM	#10
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by Travis Florida governor proves he is an idiot. I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings. How can these people be so stupid? Seriously! Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration. I agree. I really, really do not understand why trains are now a partisan issue. Setting aside Tricky's point about the environment (trust me, Floridians will figure out a way to destroy it with or without trains), what possible reason is there to oppose this? Here's money so your state can have lots of jobs and then a good way to travel around. Hell, trains are such a traditionally American institution that you'd think people would be excited about it. It's bizarre.

17th February 2011, 07:19 AM	#11
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,511	The Mouse is gonna be pissed! How's the invisible empire of the costumed geeks doing these days, politically? I know it'd cause Walt to turn over in his grave, but I'd think they'll throw their PAC support to whomever is running against the governor in the next election. (Well, maybe the can fund someone in a primary and keep their red blooded patriotism in tact.)
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

17th February 2011, 07:23 AM	#12
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	Originally Posted by Beerina Good for him. Part of the problem in America is the assumption we're all soulless bastards who leap to suck up things thrown at us from Washington, because it's there, even as Washington spending is out of control. Besides, if Disney wants rail from Tampa, they can pay for it themselves. Just as if the rich state of California, no stranger to drooling voters running up their credit cards, and the rich city of Las Vegas want a connection, they can pay for it themselves. Actually, Vegas should pay for it. Actually, the Vegas casinos should pay for it. Voluntarily. And who pays for the massive subsidies that highways get? Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass? Why does no one object to the massive subsidies to the airlines and airports? Why is rail the only mode of transportation that everyone thinks must be profitable? Everyone calls this the Disney Train and that just pisses me off. The real benefit was to the people stuck on Interstate 4 between the two cities. I went over all the designs for this train proposal end to end (about a terrabyte of PDFs) and the whole concept was quite sound from everything I saw. It was anchored in two major transportation hubs on either end, required minimal viaducts and no tunnels. Also all the property was already owned by the state. But the real problem here is that high speed rail is being turned into a blue/red issue. If Republican's keep opposing it everywhere for no good reason except that Obama likes it then this country is screwed. Gas will be $5 a gallon soon. Our highways were past design capacity decades ago. Then there are the environmental implications of roads and planes. For all those reasons we need to be building a nationwide network of electrified passenger railways RIGHT NOW! If we don't it will be our ass when the economy grinds to halt as the aging infrastructure--overused, obsolete, too expensive to expand and damaging to the environment--collapses outright. And this need not be a zero sum game. Nothing says that high speed rail will kill Detroit or roads altogether. France, Korea, Germany, Taiwan and Italy have model high speed rail systems but are also modernizing their highways. And with many routes now covered by rail the airlines can concentrate on longer haul flights.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy Last edited by Travis; 17th February 2011 at 07:26 AM.

17th February 2011, 07:23 AM	#13
whatthebutlersaw Dessert Arsonist Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: East of the Sun Posts: 4,037	Historically, investment in train networks have always resulted in increased prosperity for the affected area. I guess the Florida governor wants to keep the constituency back economically. My personal opinion is that a healthy infrastructure that provides the work force with increased mobility is the enemy of At Will Employment, because it provides increased opportunities and threatens the feudal status quo. Of course, as a rule, an educated and mobile work force is exactly the kind of thing that builds a state's prosperity. You'd expect individual business interests not to care about that, but the state's, in question, governor? But what do I know? I'm just a code monkey. I don't think I will ever understand American politics.
	__________________ Ask the Gatorade Brigade about electrolytes. Just don't ask them to water your plants on your holiday. Permense! Gaudere meum - scis qui es.

17th February 2011, 07:33 AM	#14
BobTheCoward Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 699	Originally Posted by Travis And who pays for the massive subsidies that highways get? Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass? Why does no one object to the massive subsidies to the airlines and airports? Why is rail the only mode of transportation that everyone thinks must be profitable? Everyone calls this the Disney Train and that just pisses me off. The real benefit was to the people stuck on Interstate 4 between the two cities. I went over all the designs for this train proposal end to end (about a terrabyte of PDFs) and the whole concept was quite sound from everything I saw. It was anchored in two major transportation hubs on either end, required minimal viaducts and no tunnels. Also all the property was already owned by the state. But the real problem here is that high speed rail is being turned into a blue/red issue. If Republican's keep opposing it everywhere for no good reason except that Obama likes it then this country is screwed. Gas will be $5 a gallon soon. Our highways were past design capacity decades ago. Then there are the environmental implications of roads and planes. For all those reasons we need to be building a nationwide network of electrified passenger railways RIGHT NOW! If we don't it will be our ass when the economy grinds to halt as the aging infrastructure--overused, obsolete, too expensive to expand and damaging to the environment--collapses outright. And this need not be a zero sum game. Nothing says that high speed rail will kill Detroit or roads altogether. France, Korea, Germany, Taiwan and Italy have model high speed rail systems but are also modernizing their highways. And with many routes now covered by rail the airlines can concentrate on longer haul flights. What I am about to say may seem I oppose your idea, but I do not. After that post, I feel a major question comes up. Highways are a good target for subsidies because they are private goods. Railways are rivalry and excludable. If it is such a good idea, what private companies are willing to build it privately without subsidy? Think about it. You have this wonderfully compelling argument for it. The only barrier is convincing Florida to let you use the land. But you could probably pay a fee. There appears that there is no reason Travis INC couldn't raise the capital for the project privately. Why isn't someone else making it happen?
BobTheCoward Muse Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 699	Last edited by BobTheCoward; 17th February 2011 at 07:35 AM.

17th February 2011, 07:35 AM	#15
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	Originally Posted by TraneWreck I agree. I really, really do not understand why trains are now a partisan issue. Setting aside Tricky's point about the environment (trust me, Floridians will figure out a way to destroy it with or without trains), what possible reason is there to oppose this? Here's money so your state can have lots of jobs and then a good way to travel around. Hell, trains are such a traditionally American institution that you'd think people would be excited about it. It's bizarre. Florida's governor's chief adviser is from the Reason Foundation which hates trains because they think it threatens big oil and auto manufacturers. They spread lies like "Americans don't ride trains" which any look at statics can be shown to be false. Hell in California the problem with our trains is not enough capacity or lines (most of the rail lines in California are owned by Union Pacific which hates passenger rail) between key centers. People want to ride the train here but the trains are nowhere to be found. So now we're trying to build them. But California's plan is contingent on 25% of the funding coming from the Federal government (unlike the Florida plan where 90% was coming from the Feds). So seeing this turn into a partisan issue clouds the future. And for that reason I hoped Florida's plan would go forth. So that it wouldn't just be a thing that only California is doing that ignorant Congresscritters can then defund in order to show those "hippie pot smoking Left Coast Liberals" that Red America loves cars and only cars.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

17th February 2011, 07:45 AM	#16
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward What I am about to say may seem I oppose your idea, but I do not. After that post, I feel a major question comes up. Highways are a good target for subsidies because they are private goods. Railways are rivalry and excludable. If it is such a good idea, what private companies are willing to build it privately without subsidy? Think about it. You have this wonderfully compelling argument for it. The only barrier is convincing Florida to let you use the land. But you could probably pay a fee. There appears that there is no reason Travis INC couldn't raise the capital for the project privately. Why isn't someone else making it happen? No private company has that kind of capital. The California system will cost about $70 billion at full buildout. The Florida one would be much cheaper and may get a private investor provided the cost of construction materials goes down. But that's beside the point. We shouldn't be building these things to be profitable in the short term. They should be built to move the citizens of the country around in a way that doesn't mortgage the future environmentally or financially in the long term (like after oil prices inevitably sore). Yes they cost a lot of build initially. But their capacity for passenger movements is absurd. In California it was analyzed to estimate how much it would cost to expand highways and airports to move the same number of people that high speed rail can. The result: $100-200 billion. Widening CA-99 would cost $25 billion alone. One whole new airport would have to be built in the Bay Area and LA.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy Last edited by Travis; 17th February 2011 at 07:46 AM.

17th February 2011, 12:26 PM	#17
Corsair 115 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 8,556	Originally Posted by Tricky But waterfront condos have never been healthier... Hmmm, given the frequency with which hurricanes occur in that part of the world, I would question the wisdom of building condos on the waterfront...
	__________________ "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."

17th February 2011, 12:29 PM	#18
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	My sister loves to tell me about the existing commuter railroad system that used to exist in Marin Cty and other areas in Northern Cali., and how the auto industry had it taken down.

17th February 2011, 12:37 PM	#19
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,881	Originally Posted by Thunder My sister loves to tell me about the existing commuter railroad system that used to exist in Marin Cty and other areas in Northern Cali., and how the auto industry had it taken down. Bring back the trollys! And some trollops too.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,881	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

17th February 2011, 02:20 PM	#20
Cylinder Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,836	So what is the benefit of the high speed rail system and cost of the project. I'll have to dig up some threads, but I have a distinct memory of these kinds of projects being fairly controversial in the past at least from the perspective of cost v. benefit. I don't know that I'be formed an opinion on the subject other than thinking that it's time to discard the "free money" attitude that seems to pervade these large-scale federal projects. It was nice to see Congress scrap the F135 alternate engine project for the Joint Strike Fighter this week.
	__________________ If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

17th February 2011, 02:24 PM	#21
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 8,416	You're right. I cannot even begin to understand why this would make you angry, all the way across the damn country...
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

17th February 2011, 02:26 PM	#22
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,090	Originally Posted by Thunder ah....more rail money going to California. very good. We'll take it in Illinois, too.
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17th February 2011, 02:29 PM	#23
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,090	Originally Posted by Travis ... They spread lies like "Americans don't ride trains" ... In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak. Over 700,000 riders. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead
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17th February 2011, 02:33 PM	#24
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,090	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward ... Why isn't someone else making it happen? Give me the power to sieze right-of-way under the most favorable possible circumstances (which government has,) exemption from NIMBY suits, and the ability to set fares any way I like, and I will find the financing for a totally private high speed rail network.
	__________________ Are you IN? Join the IN crowd now! Last edited by BenBurch; 17th February 2011 at 02:35 PM.

17th February 2011, 04:07 PM	#26
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,998	Originally Posted by Travis Why are railroads supposed to be private but highways are given a free pass? Highways are a necessity, passenger railroads are a luxury. And an expensive luxury at that.

17th February 2011, 04:09 PM	#27
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by BenBurch We'll take it in Illinois, too. it may also go to NY/NJ as well. we want 2 new rail tunnels under the Hudson.

17th February 2011, 04:18 PM	#28
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by Travis Florida governor proves he is an idiot. I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings. How can these people be so stupid? Seriously! Ugh. I am screaming things to the air right now that the autocensor would never let through. I feel like punching a wall in frustration. Since he is either a fool who knew nothing about the companies he ran or a criminal who helped them steal funds from the gov't re: healthcare. And has sealed indictments (no trial yet - wish they would arrest and try him asap - but) and is a foul thing of evil, I am certainly with you on that. I guess the hsr people didn't offer him enough.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

17th February 2011, 04:20 PM	#29
sarge Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 2,325	Originally Posted by BenBurch In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak. Over 700,000 riders. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead So, how profitable was Amtrak last Thanksgiving?
	__________________ I'm a not-so-strict constructionist, fiscally conservative, social liberal. Exactly which party represents me?

17th February 2011, 04:20 PM	#30
Grizzly Adams Muse Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 993	Originally Posted by Travis I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings. So that whole "civility" thing after the Giffords shooting is... gone, I guess. Relax, kid. It's a train. How cracked up does someone have to be to be "ashamed" to call a human being someone who is against building a train line? And you're right, I can't even begin to understand your anger. Because your anger is insane.
Grizzly Adams Muse Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 993

17th February 2011, 04:22 PM	#32
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Travis I swear that people who oppose high speed rail just need to be walled off somewhere so they can fester in the mad max wasteland their ideologies would inevitably create. They disgust me. They just thoroughly disgust me. I am ashamed that I have to recognize them as fellow human beings. wow

17th February 2011, 04:23 PM	#33
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,998	Originally Posted by BenBurch In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak. Over 700,000 riders. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead I bet every one of those 2.7% just wanted to avoid the airline's nudie scans. Amtrak could really boost their numbers if the TSA made you get a body cavity search to fly!

17th February 2011, 04:37 PM	#34
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,881	Originally Posted by BenBurch In fact, this last Thanksgiving was record volume for Amtrak. Over 700,000 riders. http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...2Fpdf&blobhead Wow, that's almost* a tenth of what the NYC metro does in a typical weekday. It's also under half* of what the airlines do on a typical weekday. But the average airline trip is about 4 times longer than the average Amtrak ride*. (If my sources and guestimation math is to be believed) Amtrak is currently receiving $2.6 Billion in subsidies each year. And it's been in the federal dole since 1971. It's not economical. Using Amtrak as some sort of example of how fantastic high-speed rail will be is ludicrious at best. but not quite. **feel free to modify how awesome the NYC Metro is by the average ride distance.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,881	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

17th February 2011, 04:45 PM	#35
Region Rat Stinky Cheese Eater Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sprung from Da Calumet Region Posts: 2,827	I think it may be too late for trains to take over the US. I just read a Slate article on path dependence and lock-in that I think applies very well to train travel. At one time, we had a rail system that was used, however primitive it was. Auto travel was growing, but roads were poor and people still took trains across the country. The path dependence came in due to Pres. Eisenhower. If Eisenhower had come out in the 50's and said "The US will have the premier rail system in the world" instead of the best highway system in the world, we would be where Europe is. We would be able to hop on a train in most any city and get to any other city. It's too late now. We spent our dollars on roads, and that's what we have. Our culture is built around cars and trucks and roads, and with the budget problem we face today, it makes no sense to spend the next 50 years building a rail system. Personally, I would love to see a convenient, inexpensive rail travel system, and I sure would like to see cargo transportation move from roads to rail, but does anyone think the very large trucking industry would stand still for that? The cost to put in little point to point systems in isolated parts of the country for billions of dollars seems like a waste to me, unless they were part of a comprehensive plan that would include the entire country. I have not seen that plan yet.
	__________________ The Optimist sees the glass as half full. The Pessimist sees the glass as half empty. The Engineer sees the glass as twice as big as it needs to be.

17th February 2011, 05:08 PM	#36
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,881	Less Guestimation New Mexico recently completed a commuter rail network that runs from Belen, north through Albuquerque and to Santa Fe. It cost ~ $400 million to build and, according to the FY 2011 budget, it sees about 1.5 million passengers a year. The operating budget is currently about $22 million a year. The cost of an average trip is about $18 and the average fee per trip is $2.35. It's a waste of money. A giant waste of money. Source - http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S1829400.shtml I'm trying to get a hold of the NM DoT budget for 2010 or 2011 so that I can verify KOB's numbers. Unfortunately, my google fu is not strong enough or they don't put it online any more. Given Ex-Governor Richardson's penchant for hiding budget items, I'm thinking it's the latter.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,881	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

17th February 2011, 05:14 PM	#37
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	I think the US has too low of a population density for high speed rail to be feasible on a national scale. It might be feasible for some routes, like say San Diego to San Fransisco. But if that is such a great idea, the locals can pay for it themselves.