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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:29 AM   #1
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Why does the left in the U.S. continue to put up with right wing insanity?

The U.S. used to be a country that other countries looked up to.

In the 60's you brought in lots of progressive, thoughtful, helpful ideas and laws but in the past several decades the U.S. has slide more and more into garbage and all while mostly in control by conservative government.

We dont need to turn this into a left v.s. right, we should all know here that the right has become insane in the U.S., worried more about gay sex then the strength of the middle class, worried more about pot smoke then the debt of the people, concerned about a perceived lack of christianity instead of debating whether multi billionaires deserve massive tax cuts.

So we (the left) know we represent the truth, so why do we allow the right wing to dominate the U.S. ?

What will it take for americans to stand up and stop this?

Spare me the links to the WI protests, those are puny compared to the effort needed to change things and spare me the "well thats why we elected Obama", because if you thought Obama was the answer you were never paying enough attention to american politics.

When will the U.S. return to the left/sanity ?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:32 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
When will the U.S. return to... sanity ?
When people stop "taking sides", letting political parties think for them and get rid of the "us/them" and "right/left" nonsense altogether.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 09:42 AM   #3
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When will the US return to sanity?

A few answers:
1) Never.
2) Caveat to #1: When Hannity, Rush, Olberman and those of that ilk go away.
3) Caveat to #1: For about three weeks after the next 9/11 happens.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:25 AM   #4
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The left is not putting up with it;the left seems unable to get it message across to the "average" voter. Until the left learns to get it message across it will continue to fail.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:29 AM   #5
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For the same reason the Right puts up with the Left, because neither side really has a choice.

And, btw, the 1960s were a terrible time in American politics.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:34 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Piscivore View Post
When people stop "taking sides", letting political parties think for them and get rid of the "us/them" and "right/left" nonsense altogether.
You say that like political leanings are relative, they arent.

Granted the democratic party stinks but its still worlds better than any republican.

I am talking about left/right, the left is the side that has the facts, intelligence, compassion and world view, the right is the side that embraces ignorance, selfishness and isolationism.

One side is correct, the other side is wrong, the left is better, no matter how you slice it.

Another example is creationism, one side believes in science, the other side believes in religion, some liberals believe that the answer is a compromise, this is crazy. Creationism is bull__t and evolution is reality/fact.

We need to stop being to relative about facts.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rogue1stclass View Post
For the same reason the Right puts up with the Left, because neither side really has a choice.

And, btw, the 1960s were a terrible time in American politics.
Terrible for whom?

The 60s had lots of protests (healthy for democracies, sadly lacking today), the 60s brought in positive change for blacks and gays and minorities.

Sadly most of the beatniks and hippies sold out their ideals later in life, the world would be a better place is we had more intelligent, compassionate people.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:39 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
So we (the left) know we represent the truth, so why do we allow the right wing to dominate the U.S. ?
So the short form of your post is basically just:

"It's stupid to disagree with me. So why do people disagree with me?"

Quote:
Spare me the links to the WI protests
Spare me your pompous indignation and content-free preening.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
You say that like political leanings are relative, they arent.
Yes they are. For the most part, they are dictated by the values one learns growing up.

Quote:
Granted the democratic party stinks but its still worlds better than any republican.

I am talking about left/right, the left is the side that has the facts, intelligence, compassion and world view, the right is the side that embraces ignorance, selfishness and isolationism.

One side is correct, the other side is wrong, the left is better, no matter how you slice it.
This is why you fail.

There are smart people with facts, intelligence, and compassion on all sides of every dichotomy, and there are stupid, emotional, selfish, uninformed ideologues on all sides too.

Quote:
We need to stop being to relative about facts.
We need to stop being tribal about them as well.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:43 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
...the world would be a better place is we had more intelligent, compassionate people.
Intelligent, compassionate people that label those that disagree with them "insane"?

Those kinds of people?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 10:43 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
The U.S. used to be a country that other countries looked up to.

In the 60's you brought in lots of progressive, thoughtful, helpful ideas and laws but in the past several decades the U.S. has slide more and more into garbage and all while mostly in control by conservative government.

We dont need to turn this into a left v.s. right, we should all know here that the right has become insane in the U.S., worried more about gay sex then the strength of the middle class, worried more about pot smoke then the debt of the people, concerned about a perceived lack of christianity instead of debating whether multi billionaires deserve massive tax cuts.

So we (the left) know we represent the truth, so why do we allow the right wing to dominate the U.S. ?

What will it take for americans to stand up and stop this?

Spare me the links to the WI protests, those are puny compared to the effort needed to change things and spare me the "well thats why we elected Obama", because if you thought Obama was the answer you were never paying enough attention to american politics.

When will the U.S. return to the left/sanity ?

Congratulations on making an entire thread that is grist for the "see, the left does it too" mill. Here's a hint (and I'm speaking as a pretty hard-left liberal, at least by American standards): a pure left or pure left country wouldn't work very well. I get upset by prominent democrats allowing their message to be dominated too, but I don't think that my ideology is infallible or "the truth." There's a hell of a lot of grey areas in politics simply because there isn't a single right answer. With a lot of issues, no matter how you approach the problem, someone is going to get the short end of the stick.

Learn to listen to people, even ones you disagree with. If nothing else, you'll learn something about your own opinions. You can feel free to point out ridiculous things (like that "uterus police" bill in another thread) as ridiculous, but just saying "the right/left = insane" isn't going to accomplish a thing.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 11:03 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
You say that like political leanings are relative, they arent.

Granted the democratic party stinks but its still worlds better than any republican.

I am talking about left/right, the left is the side that has the facts, intelligence, compassion and world view, the right is the side that embraces ignorance, selfishness and isolationism.

One side is correct, the other side is wrong, the left is better, no matter how you slice it.

Another example is creationism, one side believes in science, the other side believes in religion, some liberals believe that the answer is a compromise, this is crazy. Creationism is bull__t and evolution is reality/fact.

We need to stop being to relative about facts.
A.Quite a few people are conservative on Economic issues, but think creationism is stupid.;plenty of them post here...and quite a few people on the left buy into a lot of the New Age crap which is just as bad as creationsim. Just check out what passes for Science on the Huffington times for proof of that.
It must be really easy to see the entire world in black and white terms.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 11:19 AM   #13
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I'm sorry, I missed the part where it was demonstrated that only America has right wing insanity. Could you give us a list of countries that do not have right wing insanity? Perhaps the problem isn't a peculiarly American one.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 11:36 AM   #14
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One of the core values of the left is tolerance.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 11:52 AM   #15
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The left do plenty of idiotic stuff. Don't think that the right are hogging up all the stupid.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:06 PM   #16
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I hear you guys but lets get down to the bottom line here ...

Your country is anti-union, your middle class is terrible and shrinking fast, the rich are richer then they have ever been while your poor are growing in numbers, your country is anti-gay marriage, your country is (i think) the most religion western country in the world, you have free speech zones, your people are wire tapped, your people love guns, your ppl love prisons, your ppl hate marijuana, your state KILLS criminals and thats legal!!! you cause wars arouind the world and butcher millions ... do i need to go on?

So when will the LEFT (lets not muck around, its like the simpsons episode said "FOX NEWS, not racist, just number 1 with racists!"), take the reigns and guide your country back to a BETTER place?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:08 PM   #17
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I'd rather take it forward to a better place, but that's just me.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:10 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
The left do plenty of idiotic stuff. Don't think that the right are hogging up all the stupid.
So because the left screw up 1 out of 10 times and the right screw up 8 out of 10 times thats the same thing?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:10 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
In the 60's you brought in lots of progressive, thoughtful, helpful ideas and laws but in the past several decades the U.S. has slide more and more into garbage and all while mostly in control by conservative government.
So, you are saying that Democrats who were mostly in control of congress over the past several decades were conservative, is that correct?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:11 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by A Laughing Baby View Post
I'd rather take it forward to a better place, but that's just me.
the grave?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:16 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
So, you are saying that Democrats who were mostly in control of congress over the past several decades were conservative, is that correct?
What makes u think im talking about democrats at all?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
the grave?
Well no, that's a rather nihilistic view. I just think that any time you talk about taking our country back, you're perhaps viewing the past in a somewhat nostalgic light. There are problems with America. Deep, systemic problems. There is simply no denying that. However, I think that alienating my ideological opponents as unconditionally mentally ill or evil is at once overzealous and somewhat naive.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
What makes u think im talking about democrats at all?
Because in today's politics Democrats are generally associated with being liberal while Republicans are generally associated with being conservative.

Who were you talking about?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:21 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
So when will the LEFT (lets not muck around, its like the simpsons episode said "FOX NEWS, not racist, just number 1 with racists!"), take the reigns and guide your country back to a BETTER place?
Oddly, in the U.S.' system, it's not actually up to the "LEFT" to decide when they want to take the reigns.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The left is not putting up with it;the left seems unable to get it message across to the "average" voter. Until the left learns to get it message across it will continue to fail.
George Will's theory is that the left's message has indeed gotten out to the average voter, been considered, and been soundly rejected.

I subscribe to that theory, encouraging the lefties around here to shout loudly and proudly exactly what they want to do. It doesn't make many friends.


Originally Posted by George F. Will
For a century, the left has largely failed to enact its agenda for redistributing wealth. What the left has achieved is a rich literature of disappointment, explaining the mystery, as the left sees it, of why most Americans are impervious to the left's appeal.

An interesting addition to this canon is "What's the Matter With Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America." Its author, Thomas Frank, argues that his native Kansas -- like the nation, only more so -- votes self-destructively, meaning conservatively, because social issues such as abortion distract it from economic self-interest, as the left understands that.

...

He says the left has been battered by "the Great Backlash" of people of modest means against their obvious benefactor and wise definer of their interests, the Democratic Party. The cultural backlash has been, he believes, craftily manufactured by rich people with the only motives the left understands -- money motives. The aim of the rich is to manipulate people of modest means, making them angry about abortion and other social issues so that they will vote for Republicans who will cut taxes on the rich.

The erroneous assumption by the left, in that book, and this thread, is that your kind hearts and and the memetic narratives in your head telling you the rich are evil are disproven by the overflowing shelves of stuff around you. No, not evidence against, or evidence you can rationalize away -- disproven. Rejected. CYA. thxbie.

That's "bye" as in "bye bye!" Of course, if the lefties around here want to stick around shooting off their theories and plans, well, please do. Loudly and proudly! Let everyone know exactly what you want to do, and why.

Don't be shy!
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
I hear you guys
I don't think you do.

Quote:
Your country is anti-union
Not really.

Quote:
your middle class is terrible and shrinking fast
Not really.

Quote:
the rich are richer then they have ever been
Not really.

Quote:
while your poor are growing in numbers
Well, we could stop that easily enough: just halt immigration.

Why do you hate immigrants?

Quote:
your country is anti-gay marriage
So is most of the world.

Quote:
your country is (i think) the most religion western country in the world
Oh noes!!!!

Quote:
you have free speech zones
I doubt you have a clue what that means, or about how well-protected speech is in the United States, especially compared to, well, pretty much everywhere else.

Quote:
your people are wire tapped
I doubt you know the truth about that either. And I mean both what the US government does and what other government do.

Quote:
your people love guns
Oh noes!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
your ppl love prisons
Not so much.

Quote:
your ppl hate marijuana
Marijuana is illegal in most of the world. And this is an issue precisely because a lot of Americans don't hate marijuana. If we hated it, we wouldn't use it.

Quote:
your state KILLS criminals and thats legal!!!
Yeah, executing people who do stuff like this is just oh so mean of us.

Bite me.

Quote:
you cause wars arouind the world and butcher millions
Yeah, not so much.

Quote:
do i need to go on?
No, no need. You've done plenty to self-identify as ignorant and narcissistic.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:34 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post

I am talking about left/right, the left is the side that has the facts, intelligence, compassion and world view, the right is the side that embraces ignorance, selfishness and isolationism.

One side is correct, the other side is wrong, the left is better, no matter how you slice it.
You could have saved some time and wrote, "everyone who doesn't agree with me is a doody head."
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
the right is the side that embraces...isolationism.
Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
you cause wars arouind the world and butcher millions
Interesting, the right is to be criticized for being isolationists who interfere with other countries?

Perhaps your problem is that you don't know what the words you are using mean, especially "fact".
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
What makes u think im talking about democrats at all?
What, indeed. By the standards of evers other country, the Democrats are right wing... the Republicans are merely even more right wing.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:54 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
What, indeed. By the standards of evers other country, the Democrats are right wing... the Republicans are merely even more right wing.
Every other country? Really?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:56 PM   #31
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Dude, even the Taliban thinks Democrats are conservative. Get with the times.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:00 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by A Laughing Baby View Post
Dude, even the Taliban thinks Democrats are conservative.
I would bet they don't think that at all.

(I really must get with the times, dude.)
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"Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
I would bet they don't think that at all.
Nope. America is literally farther right than a theocratic regime which commits public executions.

I was agreeing with the poster making fun of his choice of definite articles in his rant. I don't actually think that Democrats are farther right than the Taliban. Come on now.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:08 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
What, indeed. By the standards of evers other country, the Democrats are right wing... the Republicans are merely even more right wing.
Yup ...
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by respect View Post
Interesting, the right is to be criticized for being isolationists who interfere with other countries?

Perhaps your problem is that you don't know what the words you are using mean, especially "fact".
So someone cant be anti-immigrant while being pro war? Odd but thats a helluva lot of yanks ...
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:19 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by A Laughing Baby View Post
Congratulations on making an entire thread that is grist for the "see, the left does it too" mill. Here's a hint (and I'm speaking as a pretty hard-left liberal, at least by American standards): a pure left or pure left country wouldn't work very well. I get upset by prominent democrats allowing their message to be dominated too, but I don't think that my ideology is infallible or "the truth." There's a hell of a lot of grey areas in politics simply because there isn't a single right answer. With a lot of issues, no matter how you approach the problem, someone is going to get the short end of the stick.

Learn to listen to people, even ones you disagree with. If nothing else, you'll learn something about your own opinions. You can feel free to point out ridiculous things (like that "uterus police" bill in another thread) as ridiculous, but just saying "the right/left = insane" isn't going to accomplish a thing.
This. Just change "a pretty hard-left liberal" to hard right conservative and it speaks for me very well. LB is the kind of thinking person that is worth reading and having a conversation with. Agaric not so much. If this OP is typical of Agaric's thinking I'll soon have another on ignore. Life is too short to be annoyed with such puerile nonsense.

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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:19 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
So someone cant be anti-immigrant while being pro war? Odd but thats a helluva lot of yanks ...
Isolationism

: a policy of national isolation by abstention from alliances and other international political and economic relations

Going to war is straying as far from isolationism as you can get. Like I said, you don't know what the words you are using mean.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:23 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by A Laughing Baby View Post
Nope. America is literally farther right than a theocratic regime which commits public executions.

I was agreeing with the poster making fun of his choice of definite articles in his rant. I don't actually think that Democrats are farther right than the Taliban. Come on now.
I believe that is what you think, not what the Taliban thinks.

ETA- Oops! Only after quoting you did I see the cryptic message. Lol! Well done. (Yes, I am Mr. Gullible.)
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The Three Word Story Pledge of Allegiance-- "I Hereby swear upon Engelbert's grave that I will gallop, not stride run, not walk posting three words on Shemp's honor, honoring: bananas, dwarfs, clarinets, [the 7th naughty word], haggis, Batman, nuns, wombats until such time as I'm sober. Or dead."
"Some people have a way with words, other people...Um...Oh...Uh, not have way." --Steve Martin

Last edited by Dumb All Over; 23rd February 2011 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Agaric View Post
So we (the left) know we represent the truth
Are you freaking serious?
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Old 23rd February 2011, 01:27 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
I believe that is what you think, not what the Taliban thinks.
Do I really need to make it any clearer? I don't believe that statement or anything resembling that statement. I was just riffing off the earlier post poking fun at the use of the words "every other country." Democrats may be farther right than, say, labor party members in a European Union country, but they're not even close to the right in other countries, say, Myanmar or Sudan. I even make it clear in the text you quoted, the tiny white text that wasn't tiny or white when you wrote the post I'm quoting. Do you really think there's any person out there with an opinion that's somewhat coherent that actually thinks Democrats are farther right than the Taliban? Really?

edit: Just saw your edit. I'm leaving this here anyway for anyone who missed that. No worries, as long as you don't think I actually support the Taliban over Democrats
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