Reiki Rubbish

[Kimpatsu]

Greetings, folks. I'm at it again, debating a (different) woo-woo on e-budo. (Where do they all come from?) After the no-touch KO debacle, which thread the moderator actually deleted because the woo-woo just descended into calling me all sorts of vile names (note that, unlike JREF, profanity is banned on e-budo), I thought the woo-woos might give it a rest, but no, here's a guy charging people money for therapeutic touch ("reiki"), and claiming he's curing them of sickness.
Come on over to e-budo and join in the fun!

[edthedoc]

I like your posts there: keep up the gentle pressure, asking for specific answers to your questions, don't rise to their offensive posts.

However, like most self-deluded woo-woos you're probably ultimately banging your head against a brick wall.

It's interesting that they're complaining about the cost of the courses: serves them right for being so stupid but someone else is clearly making a lot of money out of this. It's been pointed out before that there's little money to be made out of being a skeptic but losts to be made if you're a quack. Being a skeptic is much better fun because these woo-woo quacks are so easy to wind up.

Go for it, and if I have the time I'll register and start posting as well.

[scotth]

Good stuff there.

I am inclined to join you there as well. Is there a way to make a decent living at this kind of thing (trying to keep woo woos in check)?

[Kimpatsu]

Thanks for the support, folks. Unfortunately, you don't get paid for being a skeptic. I'm a scientific translator by profession, though, and work in a laboratory. I'd be willing to establish protocols for testing this guy. Interesting how he's resorted to calling me "stupid" though, don't you think?

[scotth]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Interesting how he's resorted to calling me "stupid" though, don't you think?

About as interesting as franko, UCE, and MM calling me stupid.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by scotth
About as interesting as franko, UCE, and MM calling me stupid.

Scott, you and I are on course to become fast friends. We think alike.
Geez... you mean that everything MM, Franko, and their ilk write isn't true? Say not so!

[scotth]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Scott, you and I are on course to become fast friends. We think alike.
Geez... you mean that everything MM, Franko, and their ilk write isn't true? Say not so!

I wouldn't go that far.

I have seen Franko say we are made of atoms. I don't argue with that. I generally run into trouble a couple statements later though.

My biggest problem with MM was deciphering exactly what the intended meaning of his posts were. The composition was so poor that I was generally hesitant to refute them as I wasn't sure (and sometimes had no idea) what was being claimed.

At least with franko, I was sure what he was claiming.

Of course I read the sarcasm in your statement. None the less, I felt a serious answer was useful anyway.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by scotth
Of course I read the sarcasm in your statement. None the less, I felt a serious answer was useful anyway.

Not sarcasm; satire. The great British contribution to humour.

[scotth]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Not sarcasm; satire. The great British contribution to humour.

What is a Brit doing in Tokyo? Must be a good story in there somewhere.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by scotth
What is a Brit doing in Tokyo? Must be a good story in there somewhere.

Degree in Japanese from London University; MA in Japanese history from Kyoto University. Intended to stay 2 to 3 years after that; still here 12 years later.

[Thought Harvester]

A good effort! A site like that, you're bound to find at least a couple of lurkers on the fence. THAT's where the payoff is.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Thought Harvester
A good effort! A site like that, you're bound to find at least a couple of lurkers on the fence. THAT's where the payoff is.

Exactly my intent. The woo-woos are pretty much a lost cause, but maybe I can reach a lurker out there, somewhere, and turn them from the Dark Side.
Best,

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Exactly my intent. The woo-woos are pretty much a lost cause, but maybe I can reach a lurker out there, somewhere, and turn them from the Dark Side.
Best,

IMO you are the one looking like an unreasonable goof. Your first post was incredibly abrasive, and so far this guy's post are more reasonable than yours.

Like I've said, the JREF challenge is a challenge, but it is not peer reviewed science, so why do you expect anyone but the bulk of tithing skeptics to consider it as more than interesting entertainment?

For example, this is a great post of yours Kimpatsu, which shows how ingrained your beliefs are:

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This is also a tactic of quacks put on the spot: Use ad hominem rather than supply evidence for their claims.
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You call him a quack, a woo-woo, and say he should be arrested for fraud, and then call him out for using an ad hom.

[Ladewig]

Darn you to heck, Kimpatsu. You've gone and made me agree with Whodini. Your approach is mighty aggressive for a believers' forum. They'll hear the name calling instead of the facts. If you are trying to influence the fence-sitters, I would suggest asking the strong believers how to distinguish between good Reiki practictioners and bad ones. You can then build on however their definition of bad ones to include all of them or gently point out fallacies in the distinguishing process.

Also, keep in mind that even if the Reiki healing stuff that they claim is all placebo effect, they still removed the subjective symptoms more quickly.

I'd also add that even if the brain tumor disappearred, the cancer could have metastasized and grown to a fatal level despite the "disapparence" of the tumor, or, as is so often pointed out in investigative news stories, the person may not have had a tumor in the first place. Ask if the before and after MRIs could be posted somewhere on the web for all to see.

[Kimpatsu]

You just don't get it, do you, guys?
This man is selling snake oil. That's deliberate fraud, and he has to be shut down. If you think I'm abrasive, you really don't understand the issue at hand here.
But what else could I expect from Whodini?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
[b]You just don't get it, do you, guys?
This man is selling snake oil. That's deliberate fraud, and he has to be shut down. If you think I'm abrasive, you really don't understand the issue at hand here.

C'mon Kimpastu,

If people like you ruled the world, there would be witch hunts (minus the killing probably).

You automatically call him a fraud. That is hardly a skeptical stance. Guilty until proven innocent in your eyes.

You say that because him or no one else has passed the JREF challenge. However, why do you expect people to take it seriously when the results aren't published in a peer reviewed journal? Why do you determine that it is more than interesting entertainment?

I like it when you then jump on the backs of the people in that thread who showed interest in reiki.

----
But what else could I expect from Whodini?
----


Oooh, I'm hurt.

Your threads are out there for everyone to read and make up their own mind about.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
If people like you ruled the world, there would be witch hunts (minus the killing probably).

No, not witch hunts. Witches don't exist. I'd just silence all dissent, like Robert Mugabe.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
You automatically call him a fraud. That is hardly a skeptical stance. Guilty until proven innocent in your eyes.

It's not him who's on trial; it's the art of reiki. And that's been disproven countless times.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
You say that because him or no one else has passed the JREF challenge. However, why do you expect people to take it seriously when the results aren't published in a peer reviewed journal? Why do you determine that it is more than interesting entertainment?

Because the tests are subject to proper scientific protocols. Tell you what, get them to agree to a reiki test, and I'll write up the results for any suitable peer-reviewed journal you care to nominate.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
I like it when you then jump on the backs of the people in that thread who showed interest in reiki.

It's true that I don't suffer fools gladly.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Oooh, I'm hurt.

Ask a reiki practitioner to make it better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Your threads are out there for everyone to read and make up their own mind about.

No, my threads are for everyone to do as I tell them.
You are feeling sleepy... You will send me all your money... I can prove to you how this quackery works...

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I'd just silence all dissent,.
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Scary Kimpatsu... that is scary.


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It's not him who's on trial; it's the art of reiki.
----


You are talking to HIM when you say "fraud" and "come prove yourself by taking the JREF challenge". You aren't talking to an entity named Reiki.


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I'll write up the results for any suitable peer-reviewed journal you care to nominate.
----


Why? You know that JREF doesn't do that.


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You will send me all your money...
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I have a Ruby Red grapefruit drink. Will that do?

Quote:

Originally posted by Woo-dini


I have a Ruby Red grapefruit drink. Will that do?

You already owe it to me, remember?

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Scary Kimpatsu... that is scary.

Good. Be afraid; be very afraid.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
You are talking to HIM when you say "fraud" and "come prove yourself by taking the JREF challenge". You aren't talking to an entity named Reiki.

True, but he's taking money for this snake oil. That very definitely is fraud.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Why? You know that JREF doesn't do that.

It doesn't matter. I'm offering to do it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
I have a Ruby Red grapefruit drink. Will that do?

No. I also expect your firstborn child.

[gnome]

Why do Randi's results need to be in a peer-reviewed journal to have any importance?

The result of the test is not a scientific conclusion (though he may very well make a scientific analysis after the fact)... the result of the test is success or failure at what the claimant and JREF agreed would be performed. If designed according to the rules, the result is clear without scientific analysis, for example, a ball is under a cup or it isn't.

Surely from this you can conclude that the claimant was unable to perform as he claimed, without peer review?

Do you need a symposium to settle a coin toss?

(edited to add additional comments)

[Kimpatsu]

True, but it would be an interesting exercise to publish the protocol in such a journal.

[gnome]

Oh, I agree completely, I just think that the lack of such publication doesn't mean the results are insignificant.

[Ladewig]

Quote:

You just don't get it, do you, guys?
This man is selling snake oil. That's deliberate fraud, and he has to be shut down. If you think I'm abrasive, you really don't understand the issue at hand here.

I do get that there is not a scintilla of evidence in favor of Reiki producing anything other than a placebo effect. I do get that there is no possible mechanism for it to work that does not require re-writing physics, biology, and medicine. I do get that sick people may forego helpful treatments and waste time and money having someone wave his or her hands. But, I also do get that using words like quack, criminal, and fraud will not convince anyone reading a believer site. Such terms will only make them dig their heals in harder.

If your goal is to convince the people reading that site to reconsider, then reconsider your approach. If your goal is to prevent snake oil salespeople from harming sick people, then you are posting to the wrong site. Until it is outlawed, people will offer it and people will pay for it. Try approaching state or federal governments. Try educating the media. Try educating young people in critical thinking skills. Ranting on a believer site is as effective as ranting in a foreign language.

Lastly, let me say that I could be completely wrong - your approach may be working. Simply go back to the site and ask for a quick show of hands as to who has been converted. If you have changed any opinions, then I'll eat my post; otherwise, take a breath and remember the old saw about honey and vinegar.

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini

However, why do you expect people to take it seriously when the results aren't published in a peer reviewed journal?

Didn't we cover this issue in the other "JREF Science" thread?

Whodini, you may be shocked to learn that in addition to the fact that you won't find discriptions of JREF challenge events in a "peer reviewed journal," you also won't find the American Dental Association's official seal of approval on any of them. Yet even my toothbrush has that, fer chrissakes!

Quote:

Originally posted by sundog

You already owe it to me, remember?

I drank that one.



I have some seltzer and Guiness in the fridge though.

(and squid jerky)

Ish is mad tasty.

The idea of being published in a peer reviewed journal is that:

1) other people check your methodology- else you are just doing what you do in a vacumn, with no input from other professionals

2) your results are all in a place that people can check and reference. The only way currently is to hopefully pick out some info from the archives, email Randi, or physically go to the JREF and politely ask to go through their files. The only way to reference their work is to say "Check out www. ...", which isn't really authoritative or useful at all.

3) ?

There are probably a lot of other benefits of the peer review process. Right now I ate too much jerky and can't think.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ladewig
Ranting on a believer site is as effective as ranting in a foreign language.

This isn't a believer site; there are many lurkers sitting on the fence. MA tends to be top-heavy with frauds and charlatans (Kateda, or Yellow Bamboo, anyone?), so I'm targeting the waverers who read the thread. Joe Reiki is a lost cause, but if I can prevent a sick person from wasting their time and money going to him, I've achieved something.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
I ate too much jerky and can't think.

This must hold true all the time...

Quote:

Originally posted by gnome
The result of the test is not a scientific conclusion (though he may very well make a scientific analysis after the fact)... the result of the test is success or failure at what the claimant and JREF agreed would be performed.

The JREF challenge is assisted by independent parties who know something about science. The challenge is done scientifically.

Quote:

Do you need a symposium to settle a coin toss?

Exactly. And the results of a coin toss aren't published in a "peer review journal," because those results are un-interesting. Likewise, if a dowser fails to show any ability to dowse, that information isn't getting into a journal --not because the experiment to test dowsing was unscientific, but because the results are uninteresting.

You can still read about the preliminary tests of applicants and decide for yourself about the validity of the test. Just read Randi's commentaries right here on this web site. Most of them are a riot.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

This must hold true all the time...

Watch it there big guy. I wouldn't want you to stoop to my level.

[Kimpatsu]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Watch it there big guy. I wouldn't want you to stoop to my level.

I don't think I could ever get quite that low...

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And the results of a coin toss aren't published in a "peer review journal," because those results are un-interesting. Likewise, if a dowser fails to show any ability to dowse, that information isn't getting into a journal --not because the experiment to test dowsing was unscientific, but because the results are uninteresting.

You can still read about the preliminary tests of applicants and decide for yourself about the validity of the test. Just read Randi's commentaries right here on this web site. Most of them are a riot.
----


Would you like to have a nice big journal with a lot of JREF challenge results in it to look through?

That would be NEAT-O-RIFFIC!

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

I don't think I could ever get quite that low...

You can do anything if you put your mind to it. Just try a little harder.

I'll train you to be my protege'. Here are some basic methods:

1) disagree with everything

2) follow this formula for post content:

45% confusing
20% serious and thoughtful
15% funny
10% abuse of emoticons
9% misc
1% mean

3) post a lot of serious posts too just to keep people on their toes

4) somehow bring religion into every post. Examples:

Q: What is that new game by ID?
A: You fundamental Christian! PROVE ID!

Q: Did you see that gymnastics meet the other night on ESPN? The way people can twist their bodies like that! What athleticism!
A: Cho' mama! That guy got into an Iron Cross on the rings. CROSS! You fundamental Christian!

Q: Does anyone have any educational theories on how to best raise children?
A: Don't teach them to color, else you will being up the word KORAN!

5) occasionally speak in a combination of foreign languages (only using 1st year knowledge, of course) Example:

Es la verdad que wode baba y mi papa (wode baba) hablan que wo yoh er dianhao en mi casa.

Lastly,

6) speak gangsta. Ya dig that foo? Shizzle my nizzle. Fo' I bust a cap. Blaaaooo!!! 2 ta ya dome! Freestyle:

Chillin on the JREF, foos tryin to take me to da mat
Come home, chizzeck the mail, BILLS-- no time ta pay dat!
Pour a 40 fo' my homies, eyo don't tattle
who would win: Rwald vs Chessman in an acne battle?
PEACE out!
Fresh for 2003, you succckkkaassss!

[Kimpatsu]

Whodini, you are in need of serious psychological help. Are you allowed crayons where they're keeping you? And how do you type wearing that straight jacket?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Whodini, you are in need of serious psychological help. Are you allowed crayons where they're keeping you? And how do you type wearing that straight jacket?

I need psychological help yet you are the one debating reiki people.



I do like coloring though. It is relaxing.

[neutrino_cannon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

No, not witch hunts. Witches don't exist. I'd just silence all dissent, like Robert Mugabe.

Heck of a roll model.

As has been stated many times before, you can't test everyhing, and if something hasn't been tested, or refuses to be tested, then you can't draw any conclusions. If something has been tested several times, and failed consistently, then it is usualy safe to say it will continue not to work.

[Unas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
You say that because him or no one else has passed the JREF challenge. However, why do you expect people to take it seriously when the results aren't published in a peer reviewed journal?

Why does Whodini expect us to take him seriously when he claims that the results of the JREF challenges "clearly" are not made available to all who are interested?

[Unas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I'll write up the results for any suitable peer-reviewed journal you care to nominate.

Why? You know that JREF doesn't do that.

Note that, when challenged to actually facilitate a JREF challenge to be submitted to a peer-reviewed journal, Whodini declines the challenge. It would seem that he is not as anxious to see the JREF results published in a peer-reviewed journal as he would like us to believe.

[Unas]

Quote:

Originally posted by gnome
Why do Randi's results need to be in a peer-reviewed journal to have any importance?

They don't. Whodini has thrown up this smoke screen to avoid dealing with the results of the challenges themselves. It is worth noting that Whodini's original claim was that the results simply were not being made available; he created the "peer-reviewed journal" red herring after it was pointed out just how poorly his assertion correlated with reality.