RoboCalls Returning to pre Do Not Call Levels

[Skeptic Ginger]

I do my office work at home so I'm home a lot. I also have 3 phone lines plus my cell phone. After the DNC list was instituted the rate of telemarketer calls, especially the robo-calls, dropped from a couple a day to about one a month. Then they started creeping back up again.

The first to return were the ones claiming to not be a sales call. Sales pitches are couched in survey format. Then came the calls from people who have a loophole. If they can claim to be connected to your phone company, bank, credit card or magazine subscription they can claim an exemption. Their "business relationship" is the supposed exemption. But I'm pretty sure many of these companies just buy the right to claim the connection from the agency in question. Those are added to the calls that really are sales calls from your bank, credit cards and phone services.

But now the calls are all of the above plus robocalls from anyone and everyone who likely has figured out no one is stopping them. Yesterday I got 7 different calls and one robocall that was the same one I hung up on 3 times now plus they left the recording on my answering machine. So that was a total of 11 telemarketer calls in one day. Today I've had 5 including the repeating robocall twice. The other 3 were different robocalls.

And now it would appear that for a fee, they can buy a delayed caller ID reading from the phone companies for their telemarketing calls. Caller ID reads "incoming call" until you answer it (as opposed to "unknown caller"). When you answer the call, the caller ID shows the number. No doubt that one is to get past the people who reject unidentified calls.

No longer is it my phone. Apparently I pay a monthly fee so telemarketers can use my phone to call me. As consumers try to stop these invasive leeches who are using the phone I pay for, the phone companies just work with the marketers to increase the telecom's own profits regardless of what the customer wants.

The other day I got my first sales call on my cell phone. AT&T sends sales texts messages on a rare but increasingly regular occasion. This was a straightforward sales call not connected to AT&T. No doubt legal or not the robocalls will invade your personal cell phone in the near future.


I don't answer these calls. Often I just pick up the phone and hang it back up. That doesn't stop the constant interruption of the phone ringing, and seeing who it is.

It's time for a consumer revolt!

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm home a lot too. My phone hardly ever rings.

No revolt needed.

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I'm home a lot too. My phone hardly ever rings.

No revolt needed.

Well, that's because you're not on the DNC list. You're on the FYOSDNC (for your own sake do not call) list.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Well, that's because you're not on the DNC list. You're on the FYOSDNC (for your own sake do not call) list.

That could be true. I have had my share of fun over the years with telemarketers!

[One Tenth]

Which DNC list is this (state or country)? Are there any teeth in the legislation enforcing it?

There is one where I reside (Canada), and sales calls followed the same pattern, although it took quite a longer period of time before returning to pre-DNC levels. Just recently some of the callers got hit with some huge fines though, and it has been much quieter.

[deepatrax]

Here's how you deal with telemarketers...

prank call telemarketer nightmare:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Tiktaalik]

You have to re-up your do-not-call every 3 years, too. It's not a permanent thing.

[jayh]

Did you really think some law would stop this?

At this point, though, a lot of the calls are coming through VOIP systems located overseas. Probably little that the law can do to stop them.

I found it very interesting that Congress SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED POLITICAL CALLS from the do not call restriction.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by One Tenth

Which DNC list is this (state or country)? Are there any teeth in the legislation enforcing it?

There is one where I reside (Canada), and sales calls followed the same pattern, although it took quite a longer period of time before returning to pre-DNC levels. Just recently some of the callers got hit with some huge fines though, and it has been much quieter.

Country and there were teeth when it first started. If you tracked the buggers down and had the patience you could personally collect $500 per illegal call and a number of people did. But it is very time consuming to do.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

You have to re-up your do-not-call every 3 years, too. It's not a permanent thing.

Oh, I have. Not sure it's been every three years but whenever it comes up, I've renewed it. Perhaps I should see if I'm current.

Coincidentally, just as I opened the thread, I got another one.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by jayh

Did you really think some law would stop this?

But it did at first. And yes, I believe if people are louder than the marketers complaining to our legislators, they could declare the phones WE PAY FOR belong to us, not to the marketers.

Originally Posted by jayh

I found it very interesting that Congress SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED POLITICAL CALLS from the do not call restriction.

It had to do with free speech law.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by deepatrax

Here's how you deal with telemarketers...

prank call telemarketer nightmare:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Does no good with robocalls that play a recording. But the joke is hilarious.

I have told people to hold and I've put the phone down by the radio and left until they gave up.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It had to do with free speech law.

No. It has to do with them wanting to exempt themselves.

[Emet]

Originally Posted by Tiktaalik

You have to re-up your do-not-call every 3 years, too. It's not a permanent thing.

They changed that.

Quote:

Your registration will not expire. Telephone numbers placed on the National Do Not Call Registry will remain on it permanently due to the Do-Not-Call Improvement Act of 2007, which became law in February 2008. Read more about it at http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2008/04/dncfyi.shtm.

https://www.donotcall.gov/

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The other day I got my first sales call on my cell phone.

Prepare for it to get worse.

Quote:

If you think that your mobile phone is one place where you can get away from advertising, think again.

The marketing industry has decided that mobile is the platform of the future and is rushing to send messages to your phone.

"Mobile mad men: Advertisers want to dominate your phone"
by Rory Cellan-Jones Technology correspondent, BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12509571

[jnelso99]

This is why we don't answer the phone unless we recognize the caller id. If it's important, they'll leave a message. If they don't leave a message, it obviously wasn't important.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by jnelso99

This is why we don't answer the phone unless we recognize the caller id. If it's important, they'll leave a message. If they don't leave a message, it obviously wasn't important.

I also have Anonymous Call Blocking on my phone. 99% of telemarketers block their caller id. This is why my phone pretty much never rings.

[megaresp]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I do my office work at home so I'm home a lot...

Me too, and I also get these annoying calls. For me, here in the UK.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It's time for a consumer revolt!

I'd love to inflict levels of pain and annoyance on the source of these calls equivalent to that inflicted by them on me.

I have no idea how to go about doing so. If you have ideas - I'm all ears.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by megaresp

Me too, and I also get these annoying calls. For me, here in the UK.



I'd love to inflict levels of pain and annoyance on the source of these calls equivalent to that inflicted by them on me.

I have no idea how to go about doing so. If you have ideas - I'm all ears.

When I've gotten junk faxes in the past I faxed back dozens of solid black pages to use up their printer ink.

But it no longer works because the junk faxes now come from computers and the receiver has the option of not printing.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Regarding not answering or only waiting for messages if one doesn't recognize the call, that's not the best way to run a business. One of my numbers is my business line. I do reject lots of calls that are obvious repeat offenders, but I have to answer "unknown caller" because I have physicians and other individuals who call from ID hidden lines.

On the other two lines, one is a fax and when it rings, I pick it up and hang it up. I know when a fax is coming in. And the other line doesn't have caller ID. So I need to change that. But I have these really cool vintage phones and don't necessarily want to plug an ID device into the line. And more importantly, it irks me to pay the phone company to stop telemarketers the telecom makes money off of by selling technology that gets through the call blocks they sell me.

I'm probably going to discontinue that one line instead. I have my cell phone for personal calls.

[blutoski]

Originally Posted by jayh

Did you really think some law would stop this?

I think the thought was that it was worse to rule that it was completely legal. As it is, it's a risky compromise because it's a law that restricts free speech which is considered a right in most Western countries. (this doesn't mean I am sympathetic to this argument - my personal opinion is that commercial speech is a special case)

The current problem is an extension of the violations that were there before. For example, it has always been illegal to call at night, but some call centers were doing it estimating that the few times they got caught and convicted were cheaper than the sales opportunity. Same with robosalescalls in Canada, which have never been legal.

My opinion is that the US and Canada (we have an equivalent set of do-not-call legislation) need to figure out how to make it easier for citizens to identify, accuse, and ultimately convict violators, to increase the fines/cost of confirmed violations to ruin the business case for blatantly violating the law, and thirdly to address the overseas origins of most problem operators through diplomatic or technical mechanisms.

Originally Posted by jayh

At this point, though, a lot of the calls are coming through VOIP systems located overseas. Probably little that the law can do to stop them.

That's become the main problem at this point. The impact of unlimited long distance means somebody in the Bahamas can build a call center that concentrates on the US market.

Skeptic Ginger suspects collusion with the telcos, but the reality is that spammers are archenemies of the telcos. It's the #1 customer complaint that uses billions of dollars of customer service employees' labour. Meanwhile, the calls are coming from a customer of some VoIP fly-by-night player with mob connections, based in St. Petersberg RF who uses the same servers to send email spam at night.

Originally Posted by jayh

I found it very interesting that Congress SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED POLITICAL CALLS from the do not call restriction.

This is normal in the USA, though. The principle is to avoid legally silencing any political discussion.

It's historically been the same for other modes of communication including access to property for face-to-face speech. Letters to your Congressman or Senator do not require postage. Candidates and their representatives are not trespassing if they're doorknocking to explain their platform or increase voter turnout. &c.

[blutoski]

Originally Posted by WildCat

No. It has to do with them wanting to exempt themselves.

The debate actually went the other way, and it was a concession to civil libertarians in the interest of encouraging political participation.

Essentially, restricting outbound call centers from political activity would help the sitting incumbents more than it would help challengers - the incumbents have war chests to buy TV and radio advertising. The little guys have to make do with the less expensive call centers.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I do my office work at home so I'm home a lot. I also have 3 phone lines plus my cell phone. After the DNC list was instituted the rate of telemarketer calls, especially the robo-calls, dropped from a couple a day to about one a month. Then they started creeping back up again.

The first to return were the ones claiming to not be a sales call. Sales pitches are couched in survey format. Then came the calls from people who have a loophole. If they can claim to be connected to your phone company, bank, credit card or magazine subscription they can claim an exemption. Their "business relationship" is the supposed exemption. But I'm pretty sure many of these companies just buy the right to claim the connection from the agency in question. Those are added to the calls that really are sales calls from your bank, credit cards and phone services.

But now the calls are all of the above plus robocalls from anyone and everyone who likely has figured out no one is stopping them. Yesterday I got 7 different calls and one robocall that was the same one I hung up on 3 times now plus they left the recording on my answering machine. So that was a total of 11 telemarketer calls in one day. Today I've had 5 including the repeating robocall twice. The other 3 were different robocalls.

And now it would appear that for a fee, they can buy a delayed caller ID reading from the phone companies for their telemarketing calls. Caller ID reads "incoming call" until you answer it (as opposed to "unknown caller"). When you answer the call, the caller ID shows the number. No doubt that one is to get past the people who reject unidentified calls.

No longer is it my phone. Apparently I pay a monthly fee so telemarketers can use my phone to call me. As consumers try to stop these invasive leeches who are using the phone I pay for, the phone companies just work with the marketers to increase the telecom's own profits regardless of what the customer wants.

The other day I got my first sales call on my cell phone. AT&T sends sales texts messages on a rare but increasingly regular occasion. This was a straightforward sales call not connected to AT&T. No doubt legal or not the robocalls will invade your personal cell phone in the near future.


I don't answer these calls. Often I just pick up the phone and hang it back up. That doesn't stop the constant interruption of the phone ringing, and seeing who it is.

It's time for a consumer revolt!

To explain the business relationship and do not call list.

The business relationship refers to any company you have had any type of documented business with. And the reason they are informing you of it is that by law, if you have a business relationship with a company ( have done any documented business with them within 2 years, is the legal definition in this case. ) they have every right to call you, for any business related reason from the hours of 9am to 8 pm your local time.

And the reason for this "loophole" as you put it, is really very simple.

If it wasn't there, you could set up service with a company, let's say a cable company. Demand to be put on their do not call list give them a useable, but unmailable address ( lane instead of street, etc.), then claim you have had no attempts to contact in regards to bill payment.

Not to mention the ability people would have to take petty revenge on companies by getting them to call them ( there is a specific fine for actually going outside the do not call list rules. ). You might think this is silly, but i cannot tell you the number of times i called someone back working as a supervisor for MCI or other companies i had worked for and heard someone yell triumphantly " HA, i am on the do not call list, hope you like costing your company 25 grand, think they will let you keep your job after that!?" ( This, almost verbatim was the response to about 1/4th of callbacks. )

And from a practical perspective. You call your companies when you want something right? So why is it so unacceptable for them to do the same? That is the gist of the business relationship. By doing business with these companies you are saying " I accept that we will both need to contact each other in regards to the business we do. "

The long and short of it is, if you do not want to do business with a company, don't do business with them. If their call center procedures bother you, simply close your accounts, and within 2 years you will never have to deal with them again. Granted this will leave you with nearly no options for most major services, but if getting a call is that much of a poke in the eye as you make it seem, maybe it is worth it.

But i have to ask, why get so bent out of shape about this? Coming from someone with experience, anyone calling you to sell something from a company you know is going to have offers that are leaps and bounds ahead of anything you would get from the people you talk to in person, or when you call in. I cannot count the number of times someone called into a center ranting and raving because they couldn't get the deal the telemarketer offered. You would do yourself a huge service by actually seeing what they have to offer, as an example, the plans offered by Sprint's telemarketing department were about 30-50% cheaper than any plan you could get by calling in.

If you are receiving multiple calls, that is not a standard procedure, and in fact not legal ( for sales calls the limit is once per day, contact calls 3 times. ). What is happening is the autodialer is getting stuck on certain numbers, and this does happen from time to time. All it takes is a call in, and any major company will be able to fix this within a reasonable about of time, and not only that, probably has a 20 dollar credit waiting for you, because they already know and are attempting to fix the issue.

( A funny example of this was when MCI sold a bunch of used autodialers to a competitor with the knowledge that said autodialers needed repair to be functional. This company chose to omit the repair and go straight to using them. Not only that, but they failed to use them correctly and the number coming up was listed as " MCI". Putting them in a situation where they could hugely harm MCI's local reputation by simply avoiding the repair. This went on forever, and i wouldn't be surprised if anyone here remembers getting 20+ calls a day " coming " from MCI, but being calls from a local competitor.)

As for the call id, that is your phone. There is no special call id, ( a claim we got many times for many different companies i worked at.) certain phones have an issue differentiating numbers for a call center type situation where each phone is not set up to a specific number ( from the phone's point of view that is. ) , and until you establish a connection, versus just ringing in, there is a delay. You can experience this same issue if you have a friend set up a multi line personal 1-800 number and have him call in.

I can understand, that if your not in the industry, mistakes can be seen as conspiracies against your good time, . But do you really think that it makes sense to " try and increase profits regardless of what the customer wants." that is a contradiction in the strongest sense of the word. If the customer is annoyed by something, they are not going to buy it regardless of how much better the offer is than competitors or even their own products offered in store or for call in.

Also, your phone is yours. Just as your internet can produce things you don't want to hear, and don't want to see , so can your phone, this does not mean that anyone has stolen or hijacked it.

As a final thought, your realize there is not one " Do not call" list, right? That each company has a " Do not call list." , and that records are kept of customers business relationships to the company and the length of them to ensure legality with compliance to the rules governing " Do no call" lists.

If more people actually sat down and asked a representative " What are the rules governing the do not call list. " , in a polite manner, as opposed to simply hanging up, swearing, or other non productive or mature methods of resolving the situation , you could be removed. The vast majority of companies will have a special list for those customers of theirs that wish to remain in a business relationship, but not receive sales based calls. But screaming at someone " PUT ME ON THE ******* **** DO NOT ******* CALL LIST YOU *******!!!". Is going to get you nothing more than a rep who says " Opps" and ' forgets' to click the button saying you have already been called that day.

One piece of advice i can give to anyone who wants to get what they want from the phone maze is as follows. " The more you swear, the slower they go. ". Which is to say, treat someone like you would any in person salesperson, be nice, and they will do what you want. The second it becomes a battle, well it is a battle you can't win. You rely on these people to properly note the calls, you rely on these people to actually put through your request , and you have absolutely no ability to make sure they do it, other than being a pleasant person who the rep actually wants to help.

ETA : For companies you have not done business with , indeed there is an overreaching do not call list. But for those that you do, which is what i am referring to, it is a company by company issue.

[sadhatter]

Originally Posted by megaresp

Me too, and I also get these annoying calls. For me, here in the UK.



I'd love to inflict levels of pain and annoyance on the source of these calls equivalent to that inflicted by them on me.

I have no idea how to go about doing so. If you have ideas - I'm all ears.

Call them every few days?

Now that you put it that way, it doesn't seem so horrible...

[Aoidoi]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Call them every few days?

Now that you put it that way, it doesn't seem so horrible...

Though if everyone they called did it that would be interesting. (rather a similar argument from spammers, now that I think about it. Individually insignificant, but in aggregate...)

I put my number on the DNC way back when, and this thread reminded me to sign up again since it's been the better part of a decade. But the vast majority of my calls are from people within the loopholes, anyway. Last election time I was getting half a dozen robocalls a day (still get some for "online townhalls" from one of our pols, can't say I have any interest but he keeps trying). Political calls are frustrating mostly when it's some "Citizens for Freedom" front group that's full of crap and just spreading FUD. "Did you know Joe Smith voted to fund puppy abortions and kitten genocide? Paid for by Citizens for Puppies and Kittens." But it's generally only around the elections, so doesn't bother me much.

My University likes to call several times a day for weeks while they're drumming up donations, though they're nice enough to stop once I give my 2 bits every year. They're mostly just annoying because they apparently get alums to call so random numbers pop up sometimes and it's harder to ignore them.

Discover seems to whore themselves out to 3rd parties on a semi-regular basis when they're not trying to sign you up for some random thing of their own. I've gotten a lot of calls from these guys over the years, but they seem to come in waves so I haven't gotten annoyed enough to do anything about it.

Then there's the outright frauds. "We're calling about your credit card." Right. Without naming the card. "Your car's warranty is about to expire." Right. Without knowing what kind of car it is. I mostly get these as robocalls with "press 1 to continue" kinds of options. These people should die in a fire. Not because they're calling, but because they're lying bastards perpetrating obvious frauds.

On the other hand Waste Management robocalls reminding me of collection day changes are handy. Reminder calls about furnace maintenance and stuff are fine, since I tend to forget, as are my Dental office calls as reminders. You know, actual useful uses of the telephone about business arrangements.

But calling up to try to sell me stuff (particularly anything with recurring fees) generally just annoys me and makes me question whether I want to do business with you at all.

[Emet]

Loophole folks are often pretty understanding, even if they've outsourced the calls. (charities, utilities)

I mostly try to find out where the call originated from, instead of hitting redial. Sometimes I end up speaking to an outsourcing company, sometimes the company directly. But I call customer service.
I once called in through human resources. I'm always polite, and sheepishly ask if there's any way I can request that they stop calling me. Hasn't failed yet.

An independent Allstate agent sent me a mailing, then called and left a message a week later, requesting I call. I've never done business with them. I filed an on-line complaint. A month later, her office called again. I filed another complaint, then called her and told her she was in violation of the do not call law, and curtly told her to stop calling. Then I called the company, and politely requested they investigate and ensure that I receive no further calls. They followed up by e-mail, and said they were removing my name from their call list, but it might take 30 days. Strange, considering they should never have called in the first place.

For Americans: You can go on-line and check to see that all of your numbers are registered-- including cell phones--you will receive e-mail confirmation. It is now permanent and does not expire.

[fetchbeer]

This is why I hate telemarketers, the phone company, debt collectors, and donation solicitors.

Quote:

CLOTH DONATIONS xxx-xxx-xxxx Today, 4:21 PM
Portfolio Recovery Associates xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-24-11, 7:02 PM
Private Unavailable 02-24-11, 6:01 PM
TOLL FREE CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-24-11, 5:17 PM
Portfolio Recovery Associates xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-24-11, 2:03 PM
Private Unavailable 02-23-11, 6:56 PM
TOLL FREE CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-23-11, 6:52 PM
CLOTH DONATIONS xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-23-11, 6:18 PM
Private Unavailable 02-23-11, 2:28 PM
TOLL FREE CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-23-11, 9:20 AM
Private Unavailable 02-22-11, 7:06 PM
Private Unavailable 02-22-11, 7:00 PM
CLOTH DONATIONS xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-22-11, 10:58 AM
WASHINGTON DC xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-21-11, 8:36 PM
Private Unavailable 02-21-11, 5:54 PM
Unavailable xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-21-11, 1:02 PM
Private Unavailable 02-20-11, 6:13 PM
Private Unavailable 02-20-11, 4:37 PM
TOLL FREE CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-20-11, 12:11 PM
Private Unavailable 02-19-11, 4:39 PM
TOLL FREE CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-18-11, 4:55 PM
Unavailable xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-18-11, 1:27 PM
Private Unavailable 02-17-11, 7:28 PM
Private Unavailable 02-17-11, 7:09 PM
Private Unavailable 02-17-11, 4:07 PM
WASHINGTON DC xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-16-11, 8:44 PM
Private Unavailable 02-16-11, 6:02 PM
Private Unavailable 02-15-11, 7:30 PM
Private Unavailable 02-15-11, 6:04 PM
Private Unavailable 02-15-11, 2:20 PM
TOLL FREE CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-14-11, 8:11 PM
Unavailable xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-14-11, 4:48 PM
Private Unavailable 02-14-11, 4:44 PM
WASHINGTON DC xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-14-11, 4:08 PM
PORTFOLIORECOVE xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-14-11, 9:30 AM
Private Unavailable 02-13-11, 7:10 PM
Private Unavailable 02-13-11, 6:34 PM
Private Unavailable 02-12-11, 1:41 PM
Private Unavailable 02-10-11, 5:52 PM
PORTFOLIORECOV xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-09-11, 8:45 PM
Private Unavailable 02-08-11, 8:25 PM
Private Unavailable 02-08-11, 6:02 PM
Private Unavailable 02-08-11, 4:10 PM
Private Unavailable 02-08-11, 12:48 PM
Private Unavailable 02-07-11, 8:41 PM
Private Unavailable 02-07-11, 6:07 PM
Private Unavailable 02-07-11, 5:09 PM
Private Unavailable 02-07-11, 1:18 PM
Private Unavailable 02-06-11, 6:11 PM
Private Unavailable 02-06-11, 1:51 PM
Private Unavailable 02-06-11, 12:22 PM
Private Unavailable 02-05-11, 1:46 PM
Private Unavailable 02-05-11, 11:45 AM
Private Unavailable 02-04-11, 8:28 PM
Private Unavailable 02-04-11, 8:01 PM
Private Unavailable 02-04-11, 1:01 PM
Private Unavailable 02-04-11, 12:18 PM
Private Unavailable 02-03-11, 6:51 PM
Private Unavailable 02-03-11, 4:39 PM
CLOTH DONATIONS xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-03-11, 3:00 PM
Private Unavailable 02-03-11, 1:07 PM
CLOTH DONATIONS xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-03-11, 11:54 AM
PORTFOLIORECOVE xxx-xxx-xxxx 02-02-11, 2:51 PM
Private Unavailable 02-01-11, 5:42 PM
Private Unavailable 01-31-11, 8:48 PM
Private Unavailable 01-31-11, 6:04 PM
Private Unavailable 01-30-11, 5:37 PM
Private Unavailable 01-30-11, 4:46 PM
Private Unavailable 01-30-11, 4:10 PM
Private Unavailable 01-29-11, 4:01 PM
Private Unavailable 01-29-11, 12:58 PM
Private Unavailable 01-28-11, 8:48 PM
Private Unavailable 01-28-11, 2:10 PM
Private Unavailable 01-27-11, 4:46 PM
Private Unavailable 01-27-11, 3:54 PM
PORTFOLIORECOV xxx-xxx-xxxx 01-27-11, 9:28 AM
Private Unavailable 01-26-11, 8:18 PM
Private Unavailable 01-26-11, 8:09 PM
Unavailable xxx-xxx-xxxx 01-26-11, 3:18 PM
Private Unavailable 01-26-11, 3:17 PM
Private Unavailable 01-25-11, 7:46 PM
Unavailable xxx-xxx-xxxx 01-25-11, 7:20 PM
CTRL DONATION S xxx-xxx-xxxx 01-25-11, 6:39 PM
Unavailable xxx-xxx-xxxx 01-25-11, 5:16 PM
Private Unavailable 01-25-11, 8:59 AM
Private Unavailable 01-24-11, 3:49 PM
Private Unavailable 01-24-11, 11:04 AM
Private Unavailable 01-24-11, 9:14 AM
Private Unavailable 01-23-11, 3:57 PM
Private Unavailable 01-23-11, 3:47 PM
Private Unavailable 01-23-11, 1:00 PM
Private Unavailable 01-22-11, 1:44 PM
Private Unavailable 01-22-11, 1:19 PM

That is 93 junk phone calls in just over a month. This line is essentially disconnected at this point, and when I am not dead tired one of these nights I am going to cancel it, probably along with all other services from my provider.

I refuse to answer any phone call marked private.

I don't owe any money to anyone (and have always payed my debts on time), and the portfolio recovery associates, a debt collection company, won't believe that I am not the person who had this number more than 5 years ago. This debt keeps getting sold it seems, and every few months I get a new debt collector calling about it, so I just don't pick up anymore.

I don't know who these cloth donation people are, as they never bother to leave a message.

And who knows what that Washington DC call was, because they also didn't bother to leave a message.

This number has been on the do not call registry since I got it. And I still get about 100 crap calls a month. So even if sadhatter's information is correct, I don't really care. It's time for a revolution.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Blutoski, I'll address your post more thoroughly later, but tell me what you think the process is for telemarketers to have their numbers show up as "incoming call" and not be displayed on the caller ID that I pay for until after I answer the phone? I'm pretty sure the telecoms are charging for the service to defeat my caller ID and call blocking of unIDed numbers.

[MatildaGage]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

When I've gotten junk faxes in the past I faxed back dozens of solid black pages to use up their printer ink.

THAT is freaking awesome!!

[GreyArea]

Originally Posted by fetchbeer

I don't owe any money to anyone (and have always payed my debts on time), and the portfolio recovery associates, a debt collection company, won't believe that I am not the person who had this number more than 5 years ago. This debt keeps getting sold it seems, and every few months I get a new debt collector calling about it, so I just don't pick up anymore.

I have the same problem with these "debt collectors". When I answer the phone specifically because I want these people to tell me who they are looking for, their machine still leaves the same canned message my answering machine gets. I end up without a person to talk to. It's very annoying.

If anyone has any suggestions about how to deal with this, I'd like to hear them. The only thing I can think of is to call them from another number (so they can't get my name on Caller ID), then ask them who's name is attached to my telephone number and how old their record is. I'm certain it won't be my name and will be a name-number association from a time before I got that number.

[fetchbeer]

Originally Posted by GreyArea

If anyone has any suggestions about how to deal with this, I'd like to hear them. The only thing I can think of is to call them from another number (so they can't get my name on Caller ID), then ask them who's name is attached to my telephone number and how old their record is. I'm certain it won't be my name and will be a name-number association from a time before I got that number.

At one point I was forwarding all calls from debt collectors back to one of their phone numbers, but then I gave up and just stopped caring about the phone.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Emet

They changed that.



https://www.donotcall.gov/

OK, that explains why I can only recall re-listing my numbers once. I was pretty sure I had been paying attention.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

To explain the business relationship and do not call list.

The business relationship refers to any company you have had any type of documented business with. And the reason they are informing you of it is that by law, if you have a business relationship with a company ( have done any documented business with them within 2 years, is the legal definition in this case. ) they have every right to call you, for any business related reason from the hours of 9am to 8 pm your local time.

And the reason for this "loophole" as you put it, is really very simple.

If it wasn't there, you could set up service with a company, let's say a cable company. Demand to be put on their do not call list give them a useable, but unmailable address ( lane instead of street, etc.), then claim you have had no attempts to contact in regards to bill payment.

That's far fetched. Besides, the issue is not about the phone company calling me about my service or bill. The issue is them calling me very specifically for the purpose of telemarketing.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

....
And from a practical perspective. You call your companies when you want something right? So why is it so unacceptable for them to do the same? That is the gist of the business relationship. By doing business with these companies you are saying " I accept that we will both need to contact each other in regards to the business we do. "

Um, because I ask them not to and tell them I won't be buying anything from their sales reps?

Originally Posted by sadhatter

The long and short of it is, if you do not want to do business with a company, don't do business with them. If their call center procedures bother you, simply close your accounts, and within 2 years you will never have to deal with them again. Granted this will leave you with nearly no options for most major services, but if getting a call is that much of a poke in the eye as you make it seem, maybe it is worth it.

What are you, a telemarketer? Since when is the customer always wrong or the customer should expect to have no say in a mutually beneficial contract? Your attitude here of total customer submission is mind boggling.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

But i have to ask, why get so bent out of shape about this? Coming from someone with experience, anyone calling you to sell something from a company you know is going to have offers that are leaps and bounds ahead of anything you would get from the people you talk to in person, or when you call in. I cannot count the number of times someone called into a center ranting and raving because they couldn't get the deal the telemarketer offered. You would do yourself a huge service by actually seeing what they have to offer, as an example, the plans offered by Sprint's telemarketing department were about 30-50% cheaper than any plan you could get by calling in.

So you are a telemarketer. Figures you think you have a right to waste my time. I charge $110/hr. How about I send you a bill for my time when you call? Why not?


Let me give you a different scenario. There is nothing to stop more and more telemarketers with their autodial robocalls entering the field. Like the tragedy of the commons, what happens when your phone rings as often as the SPAM pours into your email box? What happens when the calls are so frequent your friends and family cannot call in without redialing multiple times? What happens when the calls start on our cell phones and constantly run our batteries down unless we turn off the phone? Just look at Fetchbeer's 93 calls in a month. Take a week's vacation without calling in for messages and your mailbox will quickly fill up with trash.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

If you are receiving multiple calls, that is not a standard procedure, and in fact not legal ( for sales calls the limit is once per day, contact calls 3 times. ). What is happening is the autodialer is getting stuck on certain numbers, and this does happen from time to time. All it takes is a call in, and any major company will be able to fix this within a reasonable about of time, and not only that, probably has a 20 dollar credit waiting for you, because they already know and are attempting to fix the issue.

No, what is happening is the callers don't give a rat's ass about a law that isn't being enforced. Half the calls I get are from people who are obligated not to call me because my number is on the DNC list. They don't care about the law.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

( A funny example of this was when MCI sold a bunch of used autodialers to a competitor with the knowledge that said autodialers needed repair to be functional. This company chose to omit the repair and go straight to using them. Not only that, but they failed to use them correctly and the number coming up was listed as " MCI". Putting them in a situation where they could hugely harm MCI's local reputation by simply avoiding the repair. This went on forever, and i wouldn't be surprised if anyone here remembers getting 20+ calls a day " coming " from MCI, but being calls from a local competitor.)

You think that's funny? Not one bit of concern for the people getting the calls, your only thought is about your fellow telemarketers?

Originally Posted by sadhatter

As for the call id, that is your phone. There is no special call id, ( a claim we got many times for many different companies i worked at.) certain phones have an issue differentiating numbers for a call center type situation where each phone is not set up to a specific number ( from the phone's point of view that is. ) , and until you establish a connection, versus just ringing in, there is a delay. You can experience this same issue if you have a friend set up a multi line personal 1-800 number and have him call in.

That would explain the "incoming call" message. How convenient for them.

But it also sucks the telecoms won't fix this flaw. If I get a call from someone in one of the cities I do business with, their number displays as the city main line, not their extension. There has to be a mainline the connection is coming through on.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

I can understand, that if your not in the industry, mistakes can be seen as conspiracies against your good time, . But do you really think that it makes sense to " try and increase profits regardless of what the customer wants." that is a contradiction in the strongest sense of the word. If the customer is annoyed by something, they are not going to buy it regardless of how much better the offer is than competitors or even their own products offered in store or for call in.

So explain why I get calls from Qwest, AT&T and Comcast despite telling them not to call?

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Also, your phone is yours. Just as your internet can produce things you don't want to hear, and don't want to see , so can your phone, this does not mean that anyone has stolen or hijacked it.

People likewise hate SPAM and when it makes your email unusable by clogging it up, that is akin to theft. That telemarketer is stealing my time. And the attitude you seem to have that it's fine to steal my time suggests you are protecting your conscience with rationalization.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

As a final thought, your realize there is not one " Do not call" list, right? That each company has a " Do not call list." , and that records are kept of customers business relationships to the company and the length of them to ensure legality with compliance to the rules governing " Do no call" lists.

What, are you in another country or something? In the US there is one DNC list in addition to any other lists companies might have.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

If more people actually sat down and asked a representative " What are the rules governing the do not call list. " , in a polite manner, as opposed to simply hanging up, swearing, or other non productive or mature methods of resolving the situation , you could be removed. The vast majority of companies will have a special list for those customers of theirs that wish to remain in a business relationship, but not receive sales based calls. But screaming at someone " PUT ME ON THE ******* **** DO NOT ******* CALL LIST YOU *******!!!". Is going to get you nothing more than a rep who says " Opps" and ' forgets' to click the button saying you have already been called that day.

One piece of advice i can give to anyone who wants to get what they want from the phone maze is as follows. " The more you swear, the slower they go. ". Which is to say, treat someone like you would any in person salesperson, be nice, and they will do what you want. The second it becomes a battle, well it is a battle you can't win. You rely on these people to properly note the calls, you rely on these people to actually put through your request , and you have absolutely no ability to make sure they do it, other than being a pleasant person who the rep actually wants to help.

ETA : For companies you have not done business with , indeed there is an overreaching do not call list. But for those that you do, which is what i am referring to, it is a company by company issue.

I'm sorry but you are full of it to assume I haven't politely asked to be removed from someone's list. And you are suggesting I listen to a robocall recording until the end to even reach a person. Are you aware some of the recordings end by sending you to a website, there is no person to politely ask.

What gives you the right to impose on people just because you can? Why do you think that's OK. How would you feel if your doorbell rang 20 times a day or more? How are you going to feel when your messages are constantly filled with crap so that people who need to leave a message get a 'mailbox full' message. How would you like to be on call and have your pager go off with junk phone messages? That happens on my business line when I am out of the office.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by GreyArea

I have the same problem with these "debt collectors". When I answer the phone specifically because I want these people to tell me who they are looking for, their machine still leaves the same canned message my answering machine gets. I end up without a person to talk to. It's very annoying.

If anyone has any suggestions about how to deal with this, I'd like to hear them. The only thing I can think of is to call them from another number (so they can't get my name on Caller ID), then ask them who's name is attached to my telephone number and how old their record is. I'm certain it won't be my name and will be a name-number association from a time before I got that number.

I got calls for a couple years for debt collectors looking for one Christian Coleman who must have used my number on his credit applications. When I'd tell people the guy never lived here and I didn't know him, they would just say that wasn't their job to decide who to call, their job was to call my number.

[Emet]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I got calls for a couple years for debt collectors looking for one Christian Coleman who must have used my number on his credit applications. When I'd tell people the guy never lived here and I didn't know him, they would just say that wasn't their job to decide who to call, their job was to call my number.

I too had a debt collector calling for someone with the same first and last name as my own--only the middle initial/name was different. In my case, they were calling on behalf of a bank credit card, IIRC. I called the bank (or creditor), explained the issue, and the calls stopped. They weren't exactly apologetic, but at least it stopped.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That's far fetched. Besides, the issue is not about the phone company calling me about my service or bill. The issue is them calling me very specifically for the purpose of telemarketing.

Um, because I ask them not to and tell them I won't be buying anything from their sales reps?

Sorry, doesn't work that way. If you do transactions with those businesses, they WILL call you from time to time. If this displeases you, switch services.

Quote:

What are you, a telemarketer? Since when is the customer always wrong or the customer should expect to have no say in a mutually beneficial contract? Your attitude here of total customer submission is mind boggling.

Hmm. What did sadhatter write..

Quote:

The long and short of it is, if you do not want to do business with a company, don't do business with them. If their call center procedures bother you, simply close your accounts, and within 2 years you will never have to deal with them again. Granted this will leave you with nearly no options for most major services, but if getting a call is that much of a poke in the eye as you make it seem, maybe it is worth it.

Wait, that's not total customer submission. That's reasonable. Vote with your wallet and all that. (Incidentally, customers often do not understand how places work the way they do unless they've worked in the industry. Shocking, I know.)

Quote:

So you are a telemarketer. Figures you think you have a right to waste my time. I charge $110/hr. How about I send you a bill for my time when you call? Why not?

It's not precisely wasting your time. They're hired to do a job (Incidently, when are you going to not kneejerk reaction? So not skeptical). and must do it. And again, as sadhatter suggested - just politely say "I am not interested in offers from your company. I would like to request that you please place me on a do not call list. Thank you and have a great day." and hang up. Yes, this could get annoying. But after a while you can just call their support or hr line and go "I've asked that you remove me from the list, please do so." (Also, as the call center operator is not getting services from you, charging them would be unethical. But I'm sure you're aware of that...)

Quote:

Let me give you a different scenario. There is nothing to stop more and more telemarketers with their autodial robocalls entering the field. Like the tragedy of the commons, what happens when your phone rings as often as the SPAM pours into your email box? What happens when the calls are so frequent your friends and family cannot call in without redialing multiple times? What happens when the calls start on our cell phones and constantly run our batteries down unless we turn off the phone? Just look at Fetchbeer's 93 calls in a month. Take a week's vacation without calling in for messages and your mailbox will quickly fill up with trash.

What is "SLIPPERY SLOPE" for $2000, Alex. Personally, I have to admit that I don't generally get these calls but I have a cell line that only occasionally gets a few robocalls. And I am of the opinion that if you can't live a coherent message, I shouldn't care.

Quote:

No, what is happening is the callers don't give a rat's ass about a law that isn't being enforced. Half the calls I get are from people who are obligated not to call me because my number is on the DNC list. They don't care about the law.

Occam's Razor suggests that it could be a combination of the two. She's also talking about people who are in a business relationship, not spammers.

Quote:

You think that's funny? Not one bit of concern for the people getting the calls, your only thought is about your fellow telemarketers?

Appeal to emotion noted.

Quote:

That would explain the "incoming call" message. How convenient for them.

But it also sucks the telecoms won't fix this flaw. If I get a call from someone in one of the cities I do business with, their number displays as the city main line, not their extension. There has to be a mainline the connection is coming through on.

Caller ID^WP

You might want to read the article. Caller ID isn't exactly foolproof anyway.

Quote:

So explain why I get calls from Qwest, AT&T and Comcast despite telling them not to call?

See above bits.

Quote:

People likewise hate SPAM and when it makes your email unusable by clogging it up, that is akin to theft. That telemarketer is stealing my time. And the attitude you seem to have that it's fine to steal my time suggests you are protecting your conscience with rationalization.

Steal? Theft? Loaded words, appeal to emotion, equivocation fallacies. Just hang up when they ring, not hard at all.

Quote:

I'm sorry but you are full of it to assume I haven't politely asked to be removed from someone's list. And you are suggesting I listen to a robocall recording until the end to even reach a person. Are you aware some of the recordings end by sending you to a website, there is no person to politely ask.

If no person, hang up. Simple.

Quote:

What gives you the right to impose on people just because you can? Why do you think that's OK. How would you feel if your doorbell rang 20 times a day or more? How are you going to feel when your messages are constantly filled with crap so that people who need to leave a message get a 'mailbox full' message. How would you like to be on call and have your pager go off with junk phone messages? That happens on my business line when I am out of the office.

Just say it. You hate sales and retail. It'd be quicker.

eta: have you looked into the art of blocking numbers?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by KoihimeNakamura

Sorry, doesn't work that way. If you do transactions with those businesses, they WILL call you from time to time. If this displeases you, switch services.

Hmm. What did sadhatter write..

Wait, that's not total customer submission. That's reasonable. Vote with your wallet and all that. (Incidentally, customers often do not understand how places work the way they do unless they've worked in the industry. Shocking, I know.)

It's not precisely wasting your time. They're hired to do a job (Incidently, when are you going to not kneejerk reaction? So not skeptical). and must do it. And again, as sadhatter suggested - just politely say "I am not interested in offers from your company. I would like to request that you please place me on a do not call list. Thank you and have a great day." and hang up. Yes, this could get annoying. But after a while you can just call their support or hr line and go "I've asked that you remove me from the list, please do so." (Also, as the call center operator is not getting services from you, charging them would be unethical. But I'm sure you're aware of that...)

What is "SLIPPERY SLOPE" for $2000, Alex. Personally, I have to admit that I don't generally get these calls but I have a cell line that only occasionally gets a few robocalls. And I am of the opinion that if you can't live a coherent message, I shouldn't care.


Occam's Razor suggests that it could be a combination of the two. She's also talking about people who are in a business relationship, not spammers.

Appeal to emotion noted.

Caller ID^WP

You might want to read the article. Caller ID isn't exactly foolproof anyway.

See above bits.

Steal? Theft? Loaded words, appeal to emotion, equivocation fallacies. Just hang up when they ring, not hard at all.

If no person, hang up. Simple.

Just say it. You hate sales and retail. It'd be quicker.

eta: have you looked into the art of blocking numbers?

Again, and despite Emet's rosy "all you have to do is" posts, these suggestions don't fly.

I'm happy for you Emet, but my requests to be taken off call lists haven't been as successful. I live in an upper middle class single family home. I am certain from what other people report, marketers have target areas that are more saturated with calls than other areas. This is one of them.

In many of the calls, like I said, there is no person to appeal to. It's a recorded call. That's what I mean by robocall, not just that the marketers use an autodialer. In most of the calls where there is a person, they have no authority to take anyone off any list. The contact person is just some minimum wage worker in a massive call center. Someone else controls the autodial equipment.

As for the collections calls for Christian Coleman, more than a few of the calls were recordings left on my answering machine with instructions to call the given number. I do not call people back who don't state their business, and I don't return calls of telemarketers. On one occasion after numerous calls for Mr Coleman, most of which if I was home the person never offered any option, I was given a number to call and tell them it wasn't Coleman's number. I did call. The creditor calls for Coleman didn't stop for many more months. At some point they did finally stop.

As for tuff luck, take your business elsewhere, come on, get real. I have credit cards, a bank, AT&T wireless, Qwest phone numbers and I signed up for Discover Magazine so the neighbor's kid could get money for their fundraiser. Except for the magazine subscription which is temporary and changing banks to a credit union, you are suggesting that if I have credit cards and a phone I should just resign myself to the position of peon and put up with the incessant calls.

There are no other providers of credit cards and phone services. I don't think that just because a telcom or credit card company has a monopoly I have to resign myself to position of peon. Maybe you feel that way, Koih, but I don't.


But even if I did resign myself to such totalitarianism, half the calls are not connected to service providers. Certainly the ones that are recorded sales calls are not. So all these arguments that people have a right to invade my home and my time because I buy something else from them are moot when it comes to many of the unwanted calls.

[Skeptic Ginger]

BTW, for those of you who aren't home much during the day, have you ever checked your call log to see just how many junk calls you are getting where no message is left? I admit having 3 lines means I get 3 times as many calls, but seeing fetchbeer's list makes me wonder if the people who think it isn't that bad realize just how many calls we are talking about here.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Again, and despite Emet's rosy "all you have to do is" posts, these suggestions don't fly.

I'm happy for you Emet, but my requests to be taken off call lists haven't been as successful. I live in an upper middle class single family home. I am certain from what other people report, marketers have target areas that are more saturated with calls than other areas. This is one of them.

Sure. That doesn't surprise me and they'd be fools otherwise - you target who has the money.

Quote:

In many of the calls, like I said, there is no person to appeal to. It's a recorded call. That's what I mean by robocall, not just that the marketers use an autodialer. In most of the calls where there is a person, they have no authority to take anyone off any list. The contact person is just some minimum wage worker in a massive call center. Someone else controls the autodial equipment.

Yes, but they can usually process requests to take you off the list, or, if asked politely, direct you to someone who can.

Quote:

As for the collections calls for Christian Coleman, more than a few of the calls were recordings left on my answering machine with instructions to call the given number. I do not call people back who don't state their business, and I don't return calls of telemarketers. On one occasion after numerous calls for Mr Coleman, most of which if I was home the person never offered any option, I was given a number to call and tell them it wasn't Coleman's number. I did call. The creditor calls for Coleman didn't stop for many more months. At some point they did finally stop.

Were they the same creditors?

Quote:

As for tuff luck, take your business elsewhere, come on, get real. I have credit cards, a bank, AT&T wireless, Qwest phone numbers and I signed up for Discover Magazine so the neighbor's kid could get money for their fundraiser. Except for the magazine subscription which is temporary and changing banks to a credit union, you are suggesting that if I have credit cards and a phone I should just resign myself to the position of peon and put up with the incessant calls.

Eh.. yes. And no. Honestly, I've never had these problems. My parents have never really had these problems. I'm not entirely sure what caused them, but...

Quote:

There are no other providers of credit cards and phone services. I don't think that just because a telcom or credit card company has a monopoly I have to resign myself to position of peon. Maybe you feel that way, Koih, but I don't.

Er... What? Are you saying that Mastercard and Visa call you daily? That'd be downright bizzare. (Or maybe it's Capital One, Discover or American Express?) - as for telcom, that's fair. I forget it's really just Qwest out here.

Quote:

But even if I did resign myself to such totalitarianism, half the calls are not connected to service providers. Certainly the ones that are recorded sales calls are not. So all these arguments that people have a right to invade my home and my time because I buy something else from them are moot when it comes to many of the unwanted calls.

I'll suggest something:

1) If you can, get a fourth line. I did so via Google Voice. Tie it to a throwaway account (preferably something that has folders - i.e not gmail)
2) Set up the software to record voicemail via Google Voice. This will also send email transcripts to you.
3) Designate this as your contact email for anything that you can afford to check once or twice a day. (This can't solve junk calls at work, is the problem.)
4) Track what calls you the most often. Block them. Also, send complaints to whoever in Washington is responsible for this.
5) Finally, try to politely get in touch with the supervisors and ask that you not get added in for any offers over the phone, and that you'd prefer to get them in either your email or mail. It might have a better chance and that way you can see if it's something you want at a time that's convenient to you.

[ETA: Let me clarify: This really is only an advantage on getting lower rate offers on credit cards. Generally speaking this just shifts the burden to having to throw it in the recycling bin, but...]

[KoihimeNakamura]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

BTW, for those of you who aren't home much during the day, have you ever checked your call log to see just how many junk calls you are getting where no message is left? I admit having 3 lines means I get 3 times as many calls, but seeing fetchbeer's list makes me wonder if the people who think it isn't that bad realize just how many calls we are talking about here.

I have no land line. I get occasional calls from this one telemarketter, but she always calls when I'm asleep. (Ironically, it's when I should be up but I work graveyard so..)

So I'd say I'm not a representative sample.