Linux - Page 9

Donn · 15th November 2011, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

You should have gotten a Mac way back when.

Ooohh — my Jedi powers can feel a flame war brewing.

Bram Kaandorp · 15th November 2011, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Donn

Ooohh — my Jedi powers can feel a flame war brewing.

Not really. I reserve those for the Ubuntu forum. Not that I am all that active there, but I have been in the middle of a flame war before. Pretty intense, and I went away from them pretty fast.

Lord Emsworth · 15th November 2011, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

Not open enough.

I meant, a Mac way back when and then switched to Linux, of course.

Donn · 15th November 2011, 08:13 AM

Ha ha. Good move! +1 Flame dodge.

Donn · 15th November 2011, 08:20 AM

I gotta say - on the mac thing - that O/S borrows so much from open source and has so much in common with Linux that I can't find any distinguishing character that would make me part with so much money for their products.

With Linux I can use cheap hardware and I get a free O/S which I can upgrade as I need (free of charge).

In a nutshell, I think I would suffer buyer's remorse if I bought a shiny new Mac.

Bram Kaandorp · 15th November 2011, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

I meant, a Mac way back when and then switched to Linux, of course.

Then again, Mac is more expensive than getting someone to build a simple computer with illegal Windows.

But those days are long behind me now, and I wouldn't think of using Windows at home, not even if it was legal AND without cost.

Bram Kaandorp · 15th November 2011, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Donn

I don't listen to podcasts (can't avoid falling asleep, I'm weird) so I have not looked. I use Thunderbird for mail as well as RSS (some RSS I just make bookmarks in Firefox - i.e. subscribe to a feed) and that works well.

Baby steps Padawan. It takes magnificent power to forget how to use Winders. I am such a Jedi. Modesty forbids me from further self-praise.

Yeah, no. That would just add another program, because podcasts aren't handled all that well by Thunderbird.

Add to that the fact that I prefer web-based mail.

If only there was a combination of Gpodder and Songbird, with full support for Linux.

But, since Songbird has ceased support for Linux, I'm left waiting for Nightingale. A long wait, I can imagine.

Lord Emsworth · 15th November 2011, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Donn

Not sure if this thread has touched on it but of things non-ascii Linux has a super system to enter characters. It's really natural and flows with one's typing.

Setup your 'compose key' (however your desktop let's you) to something like right-Alt and then you can do:

ä = compose, double-quote, a (all individual presses, not simultaneous)
è = compose, `, e
— = compose, - three times (minus key, press thrice)
© = compose, c, O (capital o)

I hope those came out ok.

I am sure there are more - what are your tips?

ö, ä, ü are not a real problem for me. I have keys for that.
é, è and ê aren't either, I have keys for the accents and put them over the letters in deadkey-fashion (i.e. type ' and nothing seems to happen, but when you type an e after that you get é)

Originally Posted by Donn

I am sure there are more - what are your tips?

I am not sure I could give any real good tips. For one, because the key designations are all kind of Greek to me. There's super, meta, right-alt, left-alt, win and ... oh, it is all very murky. And KDE's keyboard configuration isn't that much help either. Sure, there are lots of options, but it is all quite messy. "Put meta on left alt", "Make win-key the third level choser", "the button to start thermonuclear war is space" and so on. Another thing is that I am using a German Macintosh layout with deadkeys, so I figure it works totally different from what you have.

Donn · 15th November 2011, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

I have keys for that.

You stole a Mac meme.

Quote:

I have keys for the accents and put them over the letters in deadkey-fashion (i.e. type ' and nothing seems to happen, but when you type an e after that you get é)

But how do you get a ' alone when you want one? Like you just did.

Quote:

key designations are all kind of Greek to me.

Ha, join the club!

Quote:

"Put meta on left alt", "Make win-key the third level choser", "the button to start thermonuclear war is space" and so on.

I lolled. It's all so true.

Quote:

Another thing is that I am using a German Macintosh layout with deadkeys, so I figure it works totally different from what you have.

That's another wonder of Linux isn't it? It runs on and with just about anything!

Lord Emsworth · 15th November 2011, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Donn

You stole a Mac meme.

But how do you get a ' alone when you want one? Like you just did.

' and then Space

Originally Posted by Donn

That's another wonder of Linux isn't it? It runs on and with just about anything!

Oh make no mistake, I am running a thoroughbred PC. I am just using the Mac keyboard layout, because I happen to be more familiar with that. (That it differs from PC keyboard layouts goes without saying. How could it be any different?)

The Mac keyboards that I still have work too, but they aren't really good. Either too small and lacking a bunch of keys, or just a nightmare to type on. Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly. Back in the 90ies, when the company was almost dead, this was all different.

Donn · 15th November 2011, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

' and then Space

D'oh!

Quote:

Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly.

Wild, never heard that.

Sideroxylon · 15th November 2011, 01:20 PM

How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use Hotmail and Gmail but after having a go with the Kmail client, I think I would rather just access the respective websites directly. I would however like to get incoming mail alerts like the Windows Live app gave me. I know there are some apps that watch for webpage changes that might do the trick. Any advice for a KDE distro (Pardus) user?

Bram Kaandorp · 15th November 2011, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use Hotmail and Gmail but after having a go with the Kmail client, I think I would rather just access the respective websites directly. I would however like to get incoming mail alerts like the Windows Live app gave me. I know there are some apps that watch for webpage changes that might do the trick. Any advice for a KDE distro (Pardus) user?

Since I use Hotmail, I get my notifications through Emesene (a WLM client for Linux), and I know that there are several WLM clients for KDE, if you also use Hotmail.

Other than that, I wouldn't know.

John Albert · 15th November 2011, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Donn

I don't listen to podcasts (can't avoid falling asleep, I'm weird) so I have not looked. I use Thunderbird for mail as well as RSS (some RSS I just make bookmarks in Firefox - i.e. subscribe to a feed) and that works well.

I seldom listen to podcasts on my computer. I've use the DoggCatcher RSS feed aggregator on my phone for podcast listening.

I use the Liferea RSS aggregator to collect news articles and video podcasts for viewing on my desktop.

Originally Posted by Donn

Baby steps Padawan. It takes magnificent power to forget how to use Winders. I am such a Jedi. Modesty forbids me from further self-praise.

I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. I try to make it a point to stay up on all 3 major platforms. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?

Bram Kaandorp · 15th November 2011, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by John Albert

I seldom listen to podcasts on my computer. I've use the DoggCatcher RSS feed aggregator on my phone for podcast listening.

I, on the other hand, mainly listen to podcasts on my computer. An added bonus is that synchronizing with my mp3 player is easier.

I do see the advantage of downloading to a phone directly, were it not that I don't delete all podcasts after listening (especially audio dramas).

Quote:

I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. I try to make it a point to stay up on all 3 major platforms. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?

Well, I wasn't really serious. It's a bit like someone who doesn't want to drive a specific type of car, or someone who hates a certain band, and then prides him/herself in not knowing about it.

It's fairly obvious that knowing Windows is helpful, especially if it's the only OS available at work.

Just having a bit of fun.

Donn · 15th November 2011, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by John Albert

I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. .. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?

A mixture of hyperbole, geography and income.

I don't encounter Windows where I live.
I don't have trouble with various (distant) jobs because Open Office, Web work and Python (etc.) make the O/S go away.
I don't have the spare change to buy Winders.

Put that all together and boast (with a secret wince) about it.

Sorted.

Donn · 15th November 2011, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

How do you guys deal with email alerts?

I found some stuff:
http://www.kbiff.org
http://gnubiff.sourceforge.net/
And an outlier:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/kshowmail/

The 'biffs' where in my distro's repo, so give that a go before heading for some website and trying to install from there.

IIRC, you give biff the specs (gmail or whatever) and it watches and alerts. Should work, I hope.

jt512 · 16th November 2011, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

I'm still finding stuff that intrigues me, and I still find things which I want to work on (such as finding a good rolling release distro with a wide array of programs available).

Arch?

Bram Kaandorp · 16th November 2011, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by jt512

Arch?

Might be worth looking into. How good is the updating system?

As an aside, I'm also considering Fuduntu, but it is still very new (relative to Ubuntu and even Linux Mint), so the availability of software might be a bit limited.

jt512 · 16th November 2011, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

How do you guys deal with email alerts?

I use GnuBiff. The cleverly named "Mail-notification" is another option.

jt512 · 16th November 2011, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

Might be worth looking into. How good is the updating system?

It uses Pacman for package management, which is probably the best package manager in existence. Extremely tight dependency control.

Lord Emsworth · 16th November 2011, 01:45 PM

WRT rolling realeases

There is also openSuSE Tumbleweed. There is a good number of software (at least for standard openSuSE), and package management via zypper/YaST is good. It is relatively new, though.

Bram Kaandorp · 16th November 2011, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth

WRT rolling realeases

There is also openSuSE Tumbleweed. There is a good number of software (at least for standard openSuSE), and package management via zypper/YaST is good. It is relatively new, though.

Another one for the list. Thanks.

Alan · 16th November 2011, 02:19 PM

I've never used Rawhide, but it's like Tumbleweed, except for Fedora.

There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition. A new version came out a month or two ago so there won't be much to update making now the time to jump into that.

Also, opensuse 12.1 is out.

Bram Kaandorp · 16th November 2011, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Alan

I've never used Rawhide, but it's like Tumbleweed, except for Fedora.

There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition. A new version came out a month or two ago so there won't be much to update making now the time to jump into that.

Also, opensuse 12.1 is out.

Google says (or rather, wikipedia says) that Rawhide is the development tree of Fedora. Not really a rolling release, since it isn't meant as a stable distro.

Good info though. Ubuntu support forum, eat your heart out.

Bram Kaandorp · 16th November 2011, 02:32 PM

By the way, wrt a feed reader:

I completely overlooked what was so abundantly clear that I overlooked it... wait, that went wrong.

Any way, after doing some stunting in Liferea, I found out that double-clicking the enclosure downloads it to a specific (and easily specified) folder. One folder without subdivision for the different feeds, but that isn't a problem, since I place the files in different folders any way.

Not that my search for a good combo has stopped, but for the moment I have a so-rtof-lution.

Donn · 16th November 2011, 11:14 PM

What is a rolling release? I can guess, but you seem to have a specific meaning.

I find I install (/home on a sep partition, so it all mostly carries-on) by 'wipe and start again' from iso files I burn to disk. I upgrade maybe once every two or three years. Sometimes I jump clear away from a distro like from Fedora to Ubuntu.

jt512 · 16th November 2011, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Donn

What is a rolling release? I can guess, but you seem to have a specific meaning.

I find I install (/home on a sep partition, so it all mostly carries-on) by 'wipe and start again' from iso files I burn to disk. I upgrade maybe once every two or three years. Sometimes I jump clear away from a distro like from Fedora to Ubuntu.

A distro with a rolling release model releases upgrades to individual packages as they become available. This contrasts with distros using the standard release model, where upgrades to individual packages are accumulated and eventually packaged into an upgrade of the complete distribution. An example of the latter is Fedora, which releases a complete system upgrade every six months, with attendant increments to the Fedora version number: Fedora 6, Fedora 7, etc.

In contrast, Arch, which employs the rolling release model, issues upgrades to specific packages every day. The result is that Arch is continuously upgraded, and so there is no such thing as Arch version number X.

Jay

Donn · 17th November 2011, 12:05 AM

Re rolling releases. Thanks, I had not heard of that.

What happens when a single update in some library breaks a bunch of stuff?
It sounds like testing each 'roll' before rolling it out might be close to impossible since people have different apps installed in differing combinations and on differing hardware.

Tricky stuff.

John Albert · 17th November 2011, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

I'm also considering Fuduntu, but it is still very new (relative to Ubuntu and even Linux Mint), so the availability of software might be a bit limited.

It's Linux. It will run any and all software that any other distro will run, provided you have all the dependencies covered.

Toke · 17th November 2011, 03:15 AM

My objections to linux is that I can't get it to run an internet dongle and "Nem Id" the security login for my bank and public offices.

That means that I have to reboot from Ubuntu to windows to see my bank account or get on the net when away from home.

Bram Kaandorp · 17th November 2011, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by John Albert

It's Linux. It will run any and all software that any other distro will run, provided you have all the dependencies covered.

I should have clarified that, of course. I hate having to update programs by hand, so dependencies are an absolute must for me.

jt512 · 17th November 2011, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Donn

Re rolling releases. Thanks, I had not heard of that.

What happens when a single update in some library breaks a bunch of stuff?
It sounds like testing each 'roll' before rolling it out might be close to impossible since people have different apps installed in differing combinations and on differing hardware.

Arch's database of dependencies is rock solid. If a new libxyz is released, then they rebuild all the packages that use libxyz and release upgrades of them along with libxyz. For major upgrades, they first release the upgraded packages to a Testing repository, for users running the testing version of Arch. They work the bugs out there before releasing it to the full user base.

TheL8Elvis · 17th November 2011, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by jt512

Arch's database of dependencies is rock solid. If a new libxyz is released, then they rebuild all the packages that use libxyz and release upgrades of them along with libxyz. For major upgrades, they first release the upgraded packages to a Testing repository, for users running the testing version of Arch. They work the bugs out there before releasing it to the full user base.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?

Bram Kaandorp · 17th November 2011, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?

I've read good things about Linux Mint Debian Edition [LMDE] (yes, based on Debian, so a good transition).

I don't know how large the differences between Debian and LMDE are (or between LMDE and Ubuntu in my case), but I can imagine that the apt system would be the same.

Sideroxylon · 17th November 2011, 11:51 AM

Pardus has an extension to its package manager called Pisiyap that seems to take all the messing around out of compiling and installing apps that are not found in the repositories.

It is rather torturously explained through thirty minutes of on screen typing by someone I suspect shy of their spoken English in this YT video:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

If I stick with this distro as it seems I will, I probably should give something back by helping out with the English wiki entries.

jt512 · 17th November 2011, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman
Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system!
A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc.

Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-)

Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it.

Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?

I'm not familiar enough with Debian to compare it with Arch. The main features of Arch are that it is bleeding edge, clean and simple, and flexible as to scale. I don't care much about the bleeding edge part, but the clean and simple, and flexibility aspects are wonderful.

A base Arch install includes the kernel and a basic set of libraries and utilities; no X server, much less a window manager or desktop. For my server, I added mysql, Apache, and cups, and that was about it. On the other hand, I have all the software I need on my laptop, but no more. For instance, I have three desktop managers (Xmonad, my favorite; Openbox; and Compiz-fusion), but no window manager, such as Gnome or KDE; only two editors (vim and emacs, the latter left over from before I knew better); etc.

The clean and simple part is harder to describe. Firstly, the installation (which needless to say is non-GUI) walks you through a basic set of system configuration files, which you edit to suit your needs (in fact, little editing is needed by most users, but it's important to understand what these files are for, in case you need them in the future). Second, Arch uses a simpler system of managing daemons than Ubuntu and Fedora. Third, it is considered poor practice to install unpackaged software. In the rare event that you can't find an application you need in the official or community repositories, you're encouraged to assemple it into package and install it by using Pacman. This keeps your system clean and makes later uninstallation or upgrading easy. Finally, unlike other distros, when a shared library gets upgraded, all packages that use the library are upgraded. Thus you avoid littering your system with multiple versions of shared libraries and their attendant web of symlinks.

TheL8Elvis · 17th November 2011, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by jt512

I'm not familiar enough with Debian to compare it with Arch. The main features of Arch are that it is bleeding edge, clean and simple, and flexible as to scale. I don't care much about the bleeding edge part, but the clean and simple, and flexibility aspects are wonderful.

A base Arch install includes the kernel and a basic set of libraries and utilities; no X server, much less a window manager or desktop. For my server, I added mysql, Apache, and cups, and that was about it. On the other hand, I have all the software I need on my laptop, but no more. For instance, I have three desktop managers (Xmonad, my favorite; Openbox; and Compiz-fusion), but no window manager, such as Gnome or KDE; only two editors (vim and emacs, the latter left over from before I knew better); etc.

The clean and simple part is harder to describe. Firstly, the installation (which needless to say is non-GUI) walks you through a basic set of system configuration files, which you edit to suit your needs (in fact, little editing is needed by most users, but it's important to understand what these files are for, in case you need them in the future). Second, Arch uses a simpler system of managing daemons than Ubuntu and Fedora. Third, it is considered poor practice to install unpackaged software. In the rare event that you can't find an application you need in the official or community repositories, you're encouraged to assemple it into package and install it by using Pacman. This keeps your system clean and makes later uninstallation or upgrading easy. Finally, unlike other distros, when a shared library gets upgraded, all packages that use the library are upgraded. Thus you avoid littering your system with multiple versions of shared libraries and their attendant web of symlinks.

Thanks for the overview.

I'll stick with my initial impression:Sounds kind of like debian testing. I may have to fire it up in a VM and give it a whirl, but not so keen on having to learn the syntax of one more different package manager.

Bram Kaandorp · 17th November 2011, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis

Thanks for the overview.

I'll stick with my initial impression:Sounds kind of like debian testing. I may have to fire it up in a VM and give it a whirl, but not so keen on having to learn the syntax of one more different package manager.

Although it might sound like a testing version, there is a clear difference.

A testing version is not intended to be stable at all, it is meant to be used to find out whether a program is stable or nor (from what I can gather).

A rolling release is intended to be stable, even though it might not always be that way.

Another difference is that a testing version is not intended for consumer use.

I hope that clears it up.

TheL8Elvis · 17th November 2011, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp

Although it might sound like a testing version, there is a clear difference.

A testing version is not intended to be stable at all, it is meant to be used to find out whether a program is stable or nor (from what I can gather).

A rolling release is intended to be stable, even though it might not always be that way.

Another difference is that a testing version is not intended for consumer use.

I hope that clears it up.

Thanks, I understand what a rolling release is. And the description of arch sounds very similar to Debian testing. You may want to look into the differences between Debian stable,testing,unstable,and experimental if you are not familiar with them and want to understand better why I make the comparison. I could go on and on about it, but I am sure google will do a best job if you wanted to know

15th November 2011, 08:01 AM	#321
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth You should have gotten a Mac way back when. Ooohh — my Jedi powers can feel a flame war brewing.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

15th November 2011, 08:09 AM	#322
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by Donn Ooohh — my Jedi powers can feel a flame war brewing. Not really. I reserve those for the Ubuntu forum. Not that I am all that active there, but I have been in the middle of a flame war before. Pretty intense, and I went away from them pretty fast.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

15th November 2011, 08:13 AM	#324
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Ha ha. Good move! +1 Flame dodge.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

15th November 2011, 08:20 AM	#325
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	I gotta say - on the mac thing - that O/S borrows so much from open source and has so much in common with Linux that I can't find any distinguishing character that would make me part with so much money for their products. With Linux I can use cheap hardware and I get a free O/S which I can upgrade as I need (free of charge). In a nutshell, I think I would suffer buyer's remorse if I bought a shiny new Mac.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

15th November 2011, 08:26 AM	#326
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth I meant, a Mac way back when and then switched to Linux, of course. Then again, Mac is more expensive than getting someone to build a simple computer with illegal Windows. But those days are long behind me now, and I wouldn't think of using Windows at home, not even if it was legal AND without cost.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

15th November 2011, 08:11 AM	#323
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp Not open enough. I meant, a Mac way back when and then switched to Linux, of course.

15th November 2011, 08:28 AM	#327
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by Donn I don't listen to podcasts (can't avoid falling asleep, I'm weird) so I have not looked. I use Thunderbird for mail as well as RSS (some RSS I just make bookmarks in Firefox - i.e. subscribe to a feed) and that works well. Baby steps Padawan. It takes magnificent power to forget how to use Winders. I am such a Jedi. Modesty forbids me from further self-praise. Yeah, no. That would just add another program, because podcasts aren't handled all that well by Thunderbird. Add to that the fact that I prefer web-based mail. If only there was a combination of Gpodder and Songbird, with full support for Linux. But, since Songbird has ceased support for Linux, I'm left waiting for Nightingale. A long wait, I can imagine.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

15th November 2011, 08:53 AM	#328
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	Originally Posted by Donn Not sure if this thread has touched on it but of things non-ascii Linux has a super system to enter characters. It's really natural and flows with one's typing. Setup your 'compose key' (however your desktop let's you) to something like right-Alt and then you can do: ä = compose, double-quote, a (all individual presses, not simultaneous) è = compose, `, e — = compose, - three times (minus key, press thrice) © = compose, c, O (capital o) I hope those came out ok. I am sure there are more - what are your tips? ö, ä, ü are not a real problem for me. I have keys for that. é, è and ê aren't either, I have keys for the accents and put them over the letters in deadkey-fashion (i.e. type ' and nothing seems to happen, but when you type an e after that you get é) Originally Posted by Donn I am sure there are more - what are your tips? I am not sure I could give any real good tips. For one, because the key designations are all kind of Greek to me. There's super, meta, right-alt, left-alt, win and ... oh, it is all very murky. And KDE's keyboard configuration isn't that much help either. Sure, there are lots of options, but it is all quite messy. "Put meta on left alt", "Make win-key the third level choser", "the button to start thermonuclear war is space" and so on. Another thing is that I am using a German Macintosh layout with deadkeys, so I figure it works totally different from what you have.

15th November 2011, 09:01 AM	#329
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth I have keys for that. You stole a Mac meme. Quote: I have keys for the accents and put them over the letters in deadkey-fashion (i.e. type ' and nothing seems to happen, but when you type an e after that you get é) But how do you get a ' alone when you want one? Like you just did. Quote: key designations are all kind of Greek to me. Ha, join the club! Quote: "Put meta on left alt", "Make win-key the third level choser", "the button to start thermonuclear war is space" and so on. I lolled. It's all so true. Quote: Another thing is that I am using a German Macintosh layout with deadkeys, so I figure it works totally different from what you have. That's another wonder of Linux isn't it? It runs on and with just about anything!
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

15th November 2011, 09:17 AM	#330
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	Originally Posted by Donn You stole a Mac meme. But how do you get a ' alone when you want one? Like you just did. ' and then Space Originally Posted by Donn That's another wonder of Linux isn't it? It runs on and with just about anything! Oh make no mistake, I am running a thoroughbred PC. I am just using the Mac keyboard layout, because I happen to be more familiar with that. (That it differs from PC keyboard layouts goes without saying. How could it be any different?) The Mac keyboards that I still have work too, but they aren't really good. Either too small and lacking a bunch of keys, or just a nightmare to type on. Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly. Back in the 90ies, when the company was almost dead, this was all different.
	Last edited by Lord Emsworth; 15th November 2011 at 09:19 AM.

15th November 2011, 09:23 AM	#331
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth ' and then Space D'oh! Quote: Any cheap (PC) stuff is better than what Apple ships with their machines apparantly. Wild, never heard that.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

15th November 2011, 01:20 PM	#332
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,621	How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use Hotmail and Gmail but after having a go with the Kmail client, I think I would rather just access the respective websites directly. I would however like to get incoming mail alerts like the Windows Live app gave me. I know there are some apps that watch for webpage changes that might do the trick. Any advice for a KDE distro (Pardus) user?
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

15th November 2011, 01:28 PM	#333
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use Hotmail and Gmail but after having a go with the Kmail client, I think I would rather just access the respective websites directly. I would however like to get incoming mail alerts like the Windows Live app gave me. I know there are some apps that watch for webpage changes that might do the trick. Any advice for a KDE distro (Pardus) user? Since I use Hotmail, I get my notifications through Emesene (a WLM client for Linux), and I know that there are several WLM clients for KDE, if you also use Hotmail. Other than that, I wouldn't know.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

15th November 2011, 02:18 PM	#334
John Albert Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,143	Originally Posted by Donn I don't listen to podcasts (can't avoid falling asleep, I'm weird) so I have not looked. I use Thunderbird for mail as well as RSS (some RSS I just make bookmarks in Firefox - i.e. subscribe to a feed) and that works well. I seldom listen to podcasts on my computer. I've use the DoggCatcher RSS feed aggregator on my phone for podcast listening. I use the Liferea RSS aggregator to collect news articles and video podcasts for viewing on my desktop. Originally Posted by Donn Baby steps Padawan. It takes magnificent power to forget how to use Winders. I am such a Jedi. Modesty forbids me from further self-praise. I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. I try to make it a point to stay up on all 3 major platforms. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently?
John Albert Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,143	__________________ “In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain Last edited by John Albert; 15th November 2011 at 02:23 PM.

15th November 2011, 03:19 PM	#335
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by John Albert I seldom listen to podcasts on my computer. I've use the DoggCatcher RSS feed aggregator on my phone for podcast listening. I, on the other hand, mainly listen to podcasts on my computer. An added bonus is that synchronizing with my mp3 player is easier. I do see the advantage of downloading to a phone directly, were it not that I don't delete all podcasts after listening (especially audio dramas). Quote: I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. I try to make it a point to stay up on all 3 major platforms. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently? Well, I wasn't really serious. It's a bit like someone who doesn't want to drive a specific type of car, or someone who hates a certain band, and then prides him/herself in not knowing about it. It's fairly obvious that knowing Windows is helpful, especially if it's the only OS available at work. Just having a bit of fun.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

15th November 2011, 09:54 PM	#336
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Originally Posted by John Albert I don't see the advantage in "forgetting" how to use Windows. .. Why would you ever want to get to the point where you can't walk up to any computer anywhere and be able to operate it proficiently? A mixture of hyperbole, geography and income. I don't encounter Windows where I live. I don't have trouble with various (distant) jobs because Open Office, Web work and Python (etc.) make the O/S go away. I don't have the spare change to buy Winders. Put that all together and boast (with a secret wince) about it. Sorted.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

15th November 2011, 10:05 PM	#337
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon How do you guys deal with email alerts? I found some stuff: http://www.kbiff.org http://gnubiff.sourceforge.net/ And an outlier: http://sourceforge.net/projects/kshowmail/ The 'biffs' where in my distro's repo, so give that a go before heading for some website and trying to install from there. IIRC, you give biff the specs (gmail or whatever) and it watches and alerts. Should work, I hope.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

16th November 2011, 01:01 PM	#338
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp I'm still finding stuff that intrigues me, and I still find things which I want to work on (such as finding a good rolling release distro with a wide array of programs available). Arch?
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389

16th November 2011, 01:05 PM	#339
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by jt512 Arch? Might be worth looking into. How good is the updating system? As an aside, I'm also considering Fuduntu, but it is still very new (relative to Ubuntu and even Linux Mint), so the availability of software might be a bit limited.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

16th November 2011, 01:10 PM	#340
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon How do you guys deal with email alerts? I use GnuBiff. The cleverly named "Mail-notification" is another option.
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389

16th November 2011, 01:13 PM	#341
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp Might be worth looking into. How good is the updating system? It uses Pacman for package management, which is probably the best package manager in existence. Extremely tight dependency control.
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389

16th November 2011, 01:45 PM	#342
Lord Emsworth Je ne suis pas une de vos élèves Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Through the Cables and the Underground ... Posts: 2,827	WRT rolling realeases There is also openSuSE Tumbleweed. There is a good number of software (at least for standard openSuSE), and package management via zypper/YaST is good. It is relatively new, though.
	Last edited by Lord Emsworth; 16th November 2011 at 01:46 PM.

16th November 2011, 01:55 PM	#343
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth WRT rolling realeases There is also openSuSE Tumbleweed. There is a good number of software (at least for standard openSuSE), and package management via zypper/YaST is good. It is relatively new, though. Another one for the list. Thanks.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

16th November 2011, 02:19 PM	#344
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,652	I've never used Rawhide, but it's like Tumbleweed, except for Fedora. There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition. A new version came out a month or two ago so there won't be much to update making now the time to jump into that. Also, opensuse 12.1 is out.

16th November 2011, 02:26 PM	#345
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by Alan I've never used Rawhide, but it's like Tumbleweed, except for Fedora. There's also Linux Mint Debian Edition. A new version came out a month or two ago so there won't be much to update making now the time to jump into that. Also, opensuse 12.1 is out. Google says (or rather, wikipedia says) that Rawhide is the development tree of Fedora. Not really a rolling release, since it isn't meant as a stable distro. Good info though. Ubuntu support forum, eat your heart out.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

16th November 2011, 02:32 PM	#346
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	By the way, wrt a feed reader: I completely overlooked what was so abundantly clear that I overlooked it... wait, that went wrong. Any way, after doing some stunting in Liferea, I found out that double-clicking the enclosure downloads it to a specific (and easily specified) folder. One folder without subdivision for the different feeds, but that isn't a problem, since I place the files in different folders any way. Not that my search for a good combo has stopped, but for the moment I have a so-rtof-lution.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

16th November 2011, 11:14 PM	#347
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	What is a rolling release? I can guess, but you seem to have a specific meaning. I find I install (/home on a sep partition, so it all mostly carries-on) by 'wipe and start again' from iso files I burn to disk. I upgrade maybe once every two or three years. Sometimes I jump clear away from a distro like from Fedora to Ubuntu.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

16th November 2011, 11:31 PM	#348
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389	Originally Posted by Donn What is a rolling release? I can guess, but you seem to have a specific meaning. I find I install (/home on a sep partition, so it all mostly carries-on) by 'wipe and start again' from iso files I burn to disk. I upgrade maybe once every two or three years. Sometimes I jump clear away from a distro like from Fedora to Ubuntu. A distro with a rolling release model releases upgrades to individual packages as they become available. This contrasts with distros using the standard release model, where upgrades to individual packages are accumulated and eventually packaged into an upgrade of the complete distribution. An example of the latter is Fedora, which releases a complete system upgrade every six months, with attendant increments to the Fedora version number: Fedora 6, Fedora 7, etc. In contrast, Arch, which employs the rolling release model, issues upgrades to specific packages every day. The result is that Arch is continuously upgraded, and so there is no such thing as Arch version number X. Jay
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389	Last edited by jt512; 16th November 2011 at 11:40 PM.

17th November 2011, 12:05 AM	#349
Donn Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cape of Africa, a mountain, the ocean; between. Posts: 1,619	Re rolling releases. Thanks, I had not heard of that. What happens when a single update in some library breaks a bunch of stuff? It sounds like testing each 'roll' before rolling it out might be close to impossible since people have different apps installed in differing combinations and on differing hardware. Tricky stuff.
	__________________ "If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." Source unknown (thanks sackett) "So I say, stfu and go study .. and experience mysticism .. Until then, you are an uninitiated thrall. " Limbo - post here

17th November 2011, 12:44 AM	#350
John Albert Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,143	Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp I'm also considering Fuduntu, but it is still very new (relative to Ubuntu and even Linux Mint), so the availability of software might be a bit limited. It's Linux. It will run any and all software that any other distro will run, provided you have all the dependencies covered.
John Albert Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,143	__________________ “In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.” —Mark Twain

17th November 2011, 03:15 AM	#351
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 7,600	My objections to linux is that I can't get it to run an internet dongle and "Nem Id" the security login for my bank and public offices. That means that I have to reboot from Ubuntu to windows to see my bank account or get on the net when away from home.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

17th November 2011, 05:00 AM	#352
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by John Albert It's Linux. It will run any and all software that any other distro will run, provided you have all the dependencies covered. I should have clarified that, of course. I hate having to update programs by hand, so dependencies are an absolute must for me.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.

17th November 2011, 09:42 AM	#353
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389	Originally Posted by Donn Re rolling releases. Thanks, I had not heard of that. What happens when a single update in some library breaks a bunch of stuff? It sounds like testing each 'roll' before rolling it out might be close to impossible since people have different apps installed in differing combinations and on differing hardware. Arch's database of dependencies is rock solid. If a new libxyz is released, then they rebuild all the packages that use libxyz and release upgrades of them along with libxyz. For major upgrades, they first release the upgraded packages to a Testing repository, for users running the testing version of Arch. They work the bugs out there before releasing it to the full user base.
jt512 Critical Thinker Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 389

17th November 2011, 10:41 AM	#354
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513	Originally Posted by jt512 Arch's database of dependencies is rock solid. If a new libxyz is released, then they rebuild all the packages that use libxyz and release upgrades of them along with libxyz. For major upgrades, they first release the upgraded packages to a Testing repository, for users running the testing version of Arch. They work the bugs out there before releasing it to the full user base. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system! A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc. Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-) Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it. Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ?
TheL8Elvis Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,513

17th November 2011, 10:46 AM	#355
Bram Kaandorp Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 2,240	Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pacman Q: An update to package XYZ broke my system! A: Arch Linux is a rolling-release cutting-edge distribution. Package updates are available as soon as they are deemed stable enough for general use. However, updates sometimes require user intervention: configuration files may need to be updated, optional dependencies may change, etc. Sounds kind of like debian testing. ;-) Anyhow, sounds like an interesting distro. If I wasn't already so attached debian, I might look into it. Aside from being more current then debian (stable) due to rolling release, any other major differences that you think worth pointing out ? I've read good things about Linux Mint Debian Edition [LMDE] (yes, based on Debian, so a good transition). I don't know how large the differences between Debian and LMDE are (or between LMDE and Ubuntu in my case), but I can imagine that the apt system would be the same.
	__________________ If autism is a "living death", does that make me a zombie? If so, that'd be great. Just don't get your brain in my general vicinity.