A Song of Ice and Fire: GRRM announces A Dance With Dragons publication date.

[Vortigern99]

Originally Posted by Dunstan

Have we seen any signs that winter is coming to "Essos" or any continent other than Westeros? Or that it ever does?

In ADWD,

it's snowing in King's Landing, which doesn't seem much farther north than some of the Essos locations that we see. Obviously there's more to climate than latitude, but I don't even recall anyone in Essos talking about the need to plan for the upcoming winter.

There are a couple of references, late in the book, that Essos is getting colder too. I can't recall exactly where, though. I think the cold winds blow out on the Dothraki Sea, and doesn't it snow there, briefly?

If no one else chimes in with the facts and page numbers by this evening, I'll ask my wife when she gets home from work! Woman knows all.

[Giz]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Martin is too addicted to cliff hangers and disasters.

It reminds me of this

[/i]


http://www.theclassictoons.com/14/scarlet-pumpernickel/

God forbid there's drama in a fantasy epic!

[Vortigern99]

Yes, it's called adventure fiction... which ASOIAF, in case anyone had doubts, most decidedly is.

For one reader there are too many "cliff hangers and disasters". For another person the story drags. What's an author of highly anticipated and closely analyzed adventure fiction to do?

Write what he likes, I think, and hope his fans like it too. This one did.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Vortigern99

Write what he likes, I think, and hope his fans like it too. This one did.

Contrarian.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Vortigern99

Yes, it's called adventure fiction... which ASOIAF, in case anyone had doubts, most decidedly is.

For one reader there are too many "cliff hangers and disasters". For another person the story drags. What's an author of highly anticipated and closely analyzed adventure fiction to do?

Write what he likes, I think, and hope his fans like it too. This one did.

He is free to write what he likes, you are free to like it, it doesn't bother me.

Part of the reason it drags that he sets up parallel cliffhangers that never get resolved, he just set's them up, then set's up the next one, then the next one. I liked the TV series because it made the characters the focus, not one of the oldest, and cheapest, literary tricks, the cliffhanger. Then he spends inordinate amounts of time on the descriptions of a feast. If it was a real culture, I would find it interesting, but this is fantasy.

He is 63, he has two books to go, at a rate of one book every six or so years at the current rate. I remember reading the Gore Vidal historical fiction of the US. It started brilliantly, but everyone is human, the last book is woeful.

[Morrigan]

As someone who was a bit disappointed with ADWD, I think you are strongly exaggerating.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

As someone who was a bit disappointed with ADWD, I think you are strongly exaggerating.

Only a bit? I think someone isn't being honest with themselves.

[a_unique_person]

Interesting, ASOFAI was originally only meant to be three volumes. I think he should have stuck with that plan. Having created the fantasy world, and it's one that works, he should have concentrated on a series of stories with shorter arcs that resolved over three or less volumes. He could then have gone onto other long or short term arcs after settling the first one if he thought there more in it he wanted to explore.

[Morrigan]

Except that it's not how stories work...

[Halfcentaur]

I've been thinking about the story and have developed more of a theory about what's going on in this fantasy world. As touched on before, I think perhaps none of the gods or doctrines in this story are real personified beings, but all the various peoples and beings draw upon the same universal source of "natural" power in different methods. The way the dragons seem made of fire itself, defying biology, and the Others are described by Tormund as being sometimes mist and painfully cold air itself, has me considering a sort of vast elemental energy accounts for it all, ice and fire perhaps simplified and extreme examples of the same force in constant opposition and balance.
And their presence in the world returning in this sense accounts for the return of magic and other supernatural forces.

But really, who knows, it's just something I'm bouncing around in the noggin. I really love the way the dragons are literally molten rock and fire beneath their flesh, and it's just had me thinking a lot about this.

The supernatural elements that may fall outside this elemental force seem to be the prophetic dreams, but this being a fantasy universe it's not really prudent to be drawing lines between fictional natural forces and pure fantastic magic.

The way Jordan's Wheel of Time series has such a defined system of magic in the One Power had me comparing it to Martin's world, and I wonder if there's something similar to the Ice and Fire thing, though I love the ambiguous nature of the supernatural in Martin's series. I just get the sense that something is being foreshadowed more and more, hints that can be discerned, it reminds me of the first season of Lost in that way, and with Martin's vocal criticism of Lost's "pay off", it has me hoping for something intriguing that you can go back to the original book and see hinted at.

I think the more intelligent and "designed" elements of magic and prophecy could be connected to the Children of the Forest, perhaps being the Old Gods themselves, and having dominion over animals and plants and the land I could see them arranging for the Starks to have found their Dire Wolves,... but the element of prophecy and destiny to this all doesn't fit in some ways with me with this secret natural force I am describing, unless it's all a matter of the Children of the Forest and other races of beings more in tune with this "natural" force personifying events with their own bias or ability to see into the future. And here's where I feel I'm going off on a tangent.

[a_unique_person]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Except that it's not how stories work...

It's far more practical. Ringworld comes to mind.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Except that it's not how stories work...

Robert Jordan said the same.

[Newtons Bit]

I didn't really like A Feast for Crows. But I loved A Dance With Dragons. Though the Julius Caesar event at the end made me go: wait, what, again?

[Robrob]

Nearly 800 pages into A Dance With Dragons and I consistently find something to say "wow" at on every page. GRRM has a way with words like few others.

[a_unique_person]

I have experimented with reading one characters story without breaks. Since most of them are acting independently of each other, (in fact, Martin seems to take some sort of perverse pleasure in the Stark children not interacting with each other), it becomes a much more readable story.

[lionking]

I'm halfway through Clash of Kings, and am totally hooked. Thanks to this forum.

[Vortigern99]

Originally Posted by Robrob

Nearly 800 pages into A Dance With Dragons and I consistently find something to say "wow" at on every page. GRRM has a way with words like few others.

Yeah, this is the way my wife and I feel about the entire series so far. We stand in abject admiration of Martin's achievements page after stirring page, and we cannot understand the naysayers and the nitpickers in the least.

Admittedly, on my initial reading of ACOK, I was a bit bored, and until ADWD I didn't especially like Dany or Jon. But now, after deeper, more immersive readings of all the books, and having obtained through close study a deeper understanding of Martin's various threads, symbols, clues and allusions, I have become an ardent fan of all the books.

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

- Is Aegon a false dragon? - I think so. We didn't see his hair, it was dyed blue, no? Eyes could point to Dayne ancestry, not just the Targs have purple eyes. If he's real, Dany's claim is moot, he's first in line. Kills the point of her story... and why would Illyrio and Varys conspire with Viserys and Daenerys if they had Aegon had all along?

I say he's the real thing. 3 dragons means you need 3 Targaryans to ride them and "the dragon has three heads" is something that's been repeated a few times.

It doesn't really matter if his claim is stronger then Daenerys or Jon. They are both more capable then Aegon and Daenerys is ultimately the one with the dragons.

[Morrigan]

Originally Posted by lomiller

I say he's the real thing. 3 dragons means you need 3 Targaryans to ride them and "the dragon has three heads" is something that's been repeated a few times.

It doesn't really matter if his claim is stronger then Daenerys or Jon. They are both more capable then Aegon and Daenerys is ultimately the one with the dragons.

Actually, Word of God the author has said that "the dragon has 3 heads" does not necessarily mean each "head" is a Targaryen...

[Sawbones79]

Originally Posted by IDB87

Robert Jordan said the same.

Nasty as it is to compare anyone with Jordan, I truly hope Martin doesn't go down the same interminable path. Sure, I find the books rather dull in comparison to many other fantasy tales, but they're still lightyears beyond the horrible wheel of time series.

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Morrigan

Actually, Word of God the author has said that "the dragon has 3 heads" does not necessarily mean each "head" is a Targaryen...

Only two then? So who is the third? Bran? FrankenGregor?

[IDB87]

Originally Posted by Sawbones79

Nasty as it is to compare anyone with Jordan, I truly hope Martin doesn't go down the same interminable path. Sure, I find the books rather dull in comparison to many other fantasy tales, but they're still lightyears beyond the horrible wheel of time series.

It began in AFFC and only fanfriends can't see it. There are so many plot lines now, it'll be interesting to see how he pulls them all together, if he even manages to live long enough to do that.

Following Martin's set up:

Part I, Vol 1 (A Game of Thrones): 1996
Part I, Vol 2 (A Clash of Kings): 1998
Part I, Vol 3 (A Storm of Swords): 2000

Part 1.5, Vol 1 (A Feast for Crows): 2005
... Part 1.5, Vol 2 (A Dance with Dragons): 2011
Part 1.5, Vol 3 ... 2016 (Climax in Meereen)

Part 2, Vol 1 .... 2021 (Dany reaches Westeros)
Part 2, Vol 2 .... 2026
Part 2, Vol 3 .... 2031

Part 3, Vol 1 .... 2036
Part 3, Vol 2 .... 2041
Part 3, Vol 3 .... 2046

Looks about right to me.

[Robrob]

Quote:

if he even manages to live long enough to do that.

I think that's his plan, die just before finishing and leave everyone wondering just how it was to all end!

I have to say he really has a gift for capturing the inner "voice" of so many unique characters. It's uncanny. Every time Dolorous Edd opens his mouth, I just shake my head in amazement.

[Morrigan]

Originally Posted by IDB87

Only two then? So who is the third? Bran? FrankenGregor?

My guess is Tyrion. His riding of a dragon has been telegraphed for a while. Which means he might not actually be a dragon rider since GRRM will want to screw with us... But that'd be more Abecrombie's style than GRRM's, I'd say.

[Robrob]

Just having finished the book, I have to say it was a sort of roller coaster ride. IIRC, Crows was more or less one continuous tale of good guys not getting anywhere and one character's failure and/or cliffhanger after another. Dragons actually arced "up" a bit with

a strong whiplash back into "failure" and death

at the end.

I may have a different opinion in five years but for now I have to say, it's left me wanting more.

[a_unique_person]

If something can go wrong, it will wrong.
There are some quite detailed, and prolonged, picturesque travelogues presented in the book, if I ever go to Westeros, I shall know all the best sights to see.

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

He is 63, he has two books to go, at a rate of one book every six or so years at the current rate. I remember reading the Gore Vidal historical fiction of the US. It started brilliantly, but everyone is human, the last book is woeful.

Sadly, the odds of him reaching 75 are not all that great. I can only hope he has copious story notes and plot outlines somewhere safely stashed away.

[Roboramma]

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

I didn't really like A Feast for Crows. But I loved A Dance With Dragons. Though the Julius Caesar event at the end made me go: wait, what, again?

To be honest, I found it a long time in coming. It seemed like everyone in the Watch disagreed with what Jon was doing, some very strongly, and yet all that he thinks about this amounts to: "you guys are annoying and not helping me". He doesn't even consider the possibility that he needs their support, that he at the least has to be careful. Sure, sometimes we see an acknowledgement that one of his actions will not be popular, but he doesn't even try to mitigate the harm. He doesn't, for instance, gather around himself a group of people who are at least loyal to him, if not necessarily to his new course of action. He just ignores the Watch and assumes that they will continue to be happy with him in charge. I liked his chapters, but in that respect it was painful to read. And I have to agree with Dunstan on his decision to go to Hardhome: it's a bad idea, even if he had the support of the Watch. It's insane given that he doesn't.

[Dunstan]

Originally Posted by Roboramma

To be honest, I found it a long time in coming. It seemed like everyone in the Watch disagreed with what Jon was doing, some very strongly, and yet all that he thinks about this amounts to: "you guys are annoying and not helping me". He doesn't even consider the possibility that he needs their support, that he at the least has to be careful. Sure, sometimes we see an acknowledgement that one of his actions will not be popular, but he doesn't even try to mitigate the harm. He doesn't, for instance, gather around himself a group of people who are at least loyal to him, if not necessarily to his new course of action. He just ignores the Watch and assumes that they will continue to be happy with him in charge. I liked his chapters, but in that respect it was painful to read. And I have to agree with Dunstan on his decision to go to Hardhome: it's a bad idea, even if he had the support of the Watch. It's insane given that he doesn't.

Not only does he not

gather supporters around him, he affirmatively sends some away, if I'm remembering correctly. I mean, he tries to send some of the troublemakers away, too, but then he needs to have men he trusts at those other towers, too, so off go some of his allies. In retrospect, I realize that Martin foreshadowed the hell out of the ending, given how many times it was mentioned how Jon doesn't like to have a honor guard with him (though I suppose that doesn't help if your guards turn against you, too).

[Morrigan]

Sample chapter from The Winds of Winter!

http://georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

Spoiler alert: it's pretty awesome.

So we know for sure Stannis caught Arnolf Karstark's treachery. Good news! Now I'm a bit concerned for Theon (never thought I'd say that, haha). I wonder if Asha has a plan up her sleeve, or if she really just means to execute Theon to put him out of his misery.

I wonder if that's Bran warging into the ravens?

[Madalch]

I just read the book. I hated the third-to-last-chapter. I swear, if something like that happens again in the next book, there will be no characters left that I want to read about.

[Morrigan]

[gumboot]

I'm still waiting for a regular paperback of Dance With Dragons to come out. Am almost tempted to buy a hardcover and replace it when the paperbacks arrive (that's what I did for Feast for Crows).

[Morrigan]

According to GRRM's latest LJ post, the ADWD paperback will be next July, so you're in for a wait... not that GRRM readers aren't used to that by now.

[Andrew Wiggin]

Originally Posted by IDB87

It began in AFFC and only fanfriends can't see it. There are so many plot lines now, it'll be interesting to see how he pulls them all together, if he even manages to live long enough to do that.

Following Martin's set up:

Part I, Vol 1 (A Game of Thrones): 1996
Part I, Vol 2 (A Clash of Kings): 1998
Part I, Vol 3 (A Storm of Swords): 2000

Part 1.5, Vol 1 (A Feast for Crows): 2005
... Part 1.5, Vol 2 (A Dance with Dragons): 2011
Part 1.5, Vol 3 ... 2016 (Climax in Meereen)

Part 2, Vol 1 .... 2021 (Dany reaches Westeros)
Part 2, Vol 2 .... 2026
Part 2, Vol 3 .... 2031

Part 3, Vol 1 .... 2036
Part 3, Vol 2 .... 2041
Part 3, Vol 3 .... 2046

Looks about right to me.

Zeno's paradox applied to writing. First you have to write the first half of the story, then the first half of the second half of the story...

[Andrew Wiggin]

Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

GRRM posted a sample chapter from Winds.

[SpitfireIX]

Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin

Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

GRRM posted a sample chapter from Winds.

Morrigan posted that up-thread. I see that GRRM's webmaster corrected the character-name icon at the beginning of the passage.

[stokes234]

Dance with Dragons was great, but I will not be happy with the next book unless

John Snow is bought back by some kind of melisandre wizardry, in the same way that the red priest sandor clegane killed managed to be stitched up. He was too integral a character, and we have nobody else from whose perspective to tell the story of the wall. I'll admit it's unlikely though :-(

[lomiller]

Originally Posted by stokes234

Dance with Dragons was great, but I will not be happy with the next book unless

John Snow is bought back by some kind of melisandre wizardry, in the same way that the red priest sandor clegane killed managed to be stitched up. He was too integral a character, and we have nobody else from whose perspective to tell the story of the wall. I'll admit it's unlikely though :-(

There is almost no one who believes that was the last we’ll see of Jon.

[Beaver Hateman]

Of course it's quite possible that he has no idea how it's all going to finish, so he's just trying to keep spinning it out until he dies.