The Pushback Against Brewer Has Begun

leftysergeant · 10th March 2011, 04:27 AM

The move to recall Jan Brewer has bwgun. She has jkust enraged too many people and assumed too much power to herself for decent people to stand by and watch people die because she figured the state could not afford to do anything for them.

Remember when all the Republicons, led by Caribou Barbie were shrieking about "death panels" in Obama's health care plan?

Arizona has a one-member death panel and she has declared that nobody gets an organ transplant on the public dime while she is Governor of Arizona.

Two people have died so far as a direct result of her calousness.

Her opponent in the Primaries, Dr. Matt Jette has become so disgusted with what creeps like Brewer have done to the party that he is now a self-identified DEMOCRAT.

A Republican woman has started a recall petition against Brewer, and Jette is totally on board with it now.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Now the guanophrenic little twit is talking about creating a State Guard, which is withn the law, but it is troubling on many levels that she would do so.

The first concern, or course, is how she intends to pay for it.

How will command be structured. (This is really, really, I mesan really FREAKING HUGE.) I don't see that twit of a governor doing the job you would expect of a butterbar fresh from OCS once the units are formed.

That the whacktard might have some idea of comming the State Guard to support her personally should scare the crap out of every citizen who has a clue about power sharing in the pre-Gorby Soviet Union.

BAD freaking dieda

C_Felix · 10th March 2011, 05:34 AM

Links?

I watched the video, but, that is pulpiting (is that a word?)

Swagomatic · 10th March 2011, 08:27 AM

Well, I thought things were strange here in the late 80's when Evan Mecham was elected and then recalled. Now, we have a governor who is three ranks above her level of incompetence and who is a hand puppet for the fringe right wing senate president.

Seriously, the political atmosphere in this state is absolutely bizarre. Competent, intelligent people rarely run for office here - and who can blame them?

Kopji · 17th March 2011, 06:30 PM

Seems like wishful thinking.

Whiplash · 17th March 2011, 09:30 PM

retracted. I am leaving, for real this time. Farewell all. It's been real. Sorta.

Roadtoad · 17th March 2011, 10:11 PM

I thought Mecham was tossed out of office for corruption?

I read the OP, watched some of the video, and kept thinking this might turn rational. No, I would not have voted for Brewer: Her policy is wrong. And if I were living in Arizona, I'd vote for recall.

But I don't have to engage in smear. The woman's wrong, her policies are wrong, and that ought to be the end of it.

Kopji · 18th March 2011, 12:07 AM

Jan Brewer came into power when Janet Napalatino went to work for Obama, so to some extent that was not a we-the-voters doing. My perspective (trust me, always flawed) is that she was surprisingly moderate during her first term. I actually started liking her, she seemed more centrist. It seemed like some gears were turning.

Then just before last election, the first one she actually had to run for office - things changed rapidly. The state Republican power brokers seemed to think she was a bit too centrist and began working to get rid of her in the Republican primary. In reaction to that, Jan started supporting this weird stuff on immigration laws and following the storyline of private prison system companies. "Bring us your rapists, murderers, etc yearning to be free".

So long story and an election later, she is pretty much a puppet. Her public performance during the election has sort of made her a hostage to whatever wind blows from the Republican leadership.

The real personality of government has been people like Russell Pearce. He has his own website, (sans neo-Nazi friends).
http://www.russellpearce.com/

If Jan Brewer went, I doubt we would see much change.

whiplash Sorry to see anyone go. I don't remember any of your posts though. I suspect would be much the same for me...

Roadtoad · 18th March 2011, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

retracted. I am leaving, for real this time. Farewell all. It's been real. Sorta.

Why?

Wish you'd stay.

Roadtoad · 18th March 2011, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kopji

The real personality of government has been people like Russell Pearce. He has his own website, (sans neo-Nazi friends).
http://www.russellpearce.com/

If Jan Brewer went, I doubt we would see much change.

Forgive the snip, but I wanted to keep it simple.

Read up on this guy. While some of what he supports is good, valid, and worthwhile, there's a lot that just plain scares the hell out of me. His support for Ready, and his forwarding of mail from white supremacists isn't simply ill considered, it smacks of support for this kind of garbage.

I don't think a recall of Brewer has a chance in hell, but I'd still sign on simply to voice my disapproval of her actions.

Biscuit · 18th March 2011, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

Now the guanophrenic little twit is talking about creating a State Guard, which is withn the law, but it is troubling on many levels that she would do so.

The first concern, or course, is how she intends to pay for it.

How will command be structured. (This is really, really, I mesan really FREAKING HUGE.) I don't see that twit of a governor doing the job you would expect of a butterbar fresh from OCS once the units are formed.

That the whacktard might have some idea of comming the State Guard to support her personally should scare the crap out of every citizen who has a clue about power sharing in the pre-Gorby Soviet Union.

BAD freaking dieda

It does scare the crap out of me. The actual bill is less than a page long

THE BILL

For any reason the governor deems she can create this army funded by national guard money. It would be under her control only.

My biggest fear is armed and deputized civilians patrolling the boarder with the legal authority to commit acts of vigilantly justice. You know those minute men and such are just itching to start firing south.

Roadtoad · 18th March 2011, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

It does scare the crap out of me. The actual bill is less than a page long

THE BILL

For any reason the governor deems she can create this army funded by national guard money. It would be under her control only.

My biggest fear is armed and deputized civilians patrolling the boarder with the legal authority to commit acts of vigilantly justice. You know those minute men and such are just itching to start firing south.

When citizens were patrolling the border they simply reported to the INS when they saw illegal entry into the country. The INS did nothing, but at least they were made aware of what was going on.

This scares the hell out of me, because now, these people will not only report, but they'll have the authority to shoot, and will have the full protection of the government for vigilante acts. What the hell is Brewer thinking?

The Central Scrutinizer · 18th March 2011, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Whiplash

retracted. I am leaving, for real this time. Farewell all. It's been real. Sorta.

Don't let the door...well, you know the rest.

Roadtoad · 18th March 2011, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Don't let the door...well, you know the rest.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel!

Uncle Otto · 18th March 2011, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

It does scare the crap out of me. The actual bill is less than a page long

THE BILL

For any reason the governor deems she can create this army funded by national guard money. It would be under her control only.

My biggest fear is armed and deputized civilians patrolling the boarder with the legal authority to commit acts of vigilantly justice. You know those minute men and such are just itching to start firing south.

What the bill doesn't say is just what this "guard" is supposed to do. They already have a state highway patrol agency. The governor's office already has control over them. This is just political grandstanding. I swear, some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen comes out of state legislatures. They pass rotten legislation and then wait until someone contests it in court. What a damned waste.

Swagomatic · 18th March 2011, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

I thought Mecham was tossed out of office for corruption?

I read the OP, watched some of the video, and kept thinking this might turn rational. No, I would not have voted for Brewer: Her policy is wrong. And if I were living in Arizona, I'd vote for recall.

But I don't have to engage in smear. The woman's wrong, her policies are wrong, and that ought to be the end of it.

Well, there was a recall and an impeachment. The recall was successful, but Mecham was then impeached before the recall election (at least that's what I remember). Following that, Rose Mofford, the Secretary of State, became the new governor.

Jan Brewer is really out of her depth. I almost feel sorry for her at times. It seems she is groping for something halfway intelligent to say.

It looks like maybe the legislature has finally realized that there is real state business that must be done. Enough with the official state firearms and the private armies.

Kopji · 18th March 2011, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Roadtoad

Forgive the snip, but I wanted to keep it simple.

Read up on this guy. While some of what he supports is good, valid, and worthwhile, there's a lot that just plain scares the hell out of me. His support for Ready, and his forwarding of mail from white supremacists isn't simply ill considered, it smacks of support for this kind of garbage.

I don't think a recall of Brewer has a chance in hell, but I'd still sign on simply to voice my disapproval of her actions.

No problem on the snip. I'll have to look for some guidance from that bad boy upchurch on what the limits are. lol

Recalling politicians is a very time honored Arizona tradition. For my first few years in Flagstaff, I don't remember any city council member going a term without having a recall...

The defeat of five of Pearce's immigration bills is something of a slap in his face, and certainly some cold water on Republican leadership. I pretty much believe what the Republicans have said about it: it is not the public they are listening to on this, it is the business community. Just from their public statements, they've made the error of thinking that all business leaders agree with them. I know I hear that Republican are all big business and such, but I really don't see that as being true. Plenty of businesses have a liberal or progressive leaning.

Biscuit · 19th March 2011, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Uncle Otto

What the bill doesn't say is just what this "guard" is supposed to do. They already have a state highway patrol agency. The governor's office already has control over them. This is just political grandstanding. I swear, some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen comes out of state legislatures. They pass rotten legislation and then wait until someone contests it in court. What a damned waste.

It doesn't say what they are for, where they will get their equipment from, or who will be in it! Its just a bill that allows Brewer to use federal money to create her own army at her disposal. Could she force people to join? Would there be any training? YIKES!

Uncle Otto · 19th March 2011, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Biscuit

It doesn't say what they are for, where they will get their equipment from, or who will be in it! Its just a bill that allows Brewer to use federal money to create her own army at her disposal. Could she force people to join? Would there be any training? YIKES!

Im not going to get too exited about it. The only thing I can't find online so far is just where all the funding for the National Guard comes from. I don't know if the individual states pay for any of it or not. If it's all federal money, she probably couldn't use it for such a private guard type organization to begin with. I'm just guessing though. That bill really doesn't say much of anything.

Puddle Duck · 21st March 2011, 12:27 AM

I don't think it is a big thing. Big caveat; I'm giving info that is about 30 years old and things might have changed.

There are a bunch of state forces (call them Home Guards) that exist around the country, but I no longer know which states have them. They pretty much function and are using the same template as the National Guard, but are totally state owned, and are at various levels of manning from operational units, to Cadre only, to existing only on paper. Right now Brewer controls the National Guard and can direct them for whatever she wants within the law. The thing she can't control is getting the Guard nationalized.

The new guard would be pretty much the same. The funding for the new group would come from the state only and would be volunteers only. No draft. No federal money. Training would be what the state could afford. I would guess that the Feds could do the same thing to the new group (nationalize them) if they wanted to, but your guess is as good as mine.

When WWII started, the National Guard was called up and shipped off. The states then formed what was called the Home Guard and dropped it into the National Guard template. They were totally state run units & were supposedly there to fill all functions of the Natl. Guard, but were funded only by the states and were filled by veterans, 4Fs, and/or any one else that would not be pulled into the military.

The town where I was born formed a rifle company, and my father was the First Sergeant. He was classified married with children and worked in a critical defense industry, so the military didn't want him. However he went through the National Guard routine as part of the Home Guard.

For any Brits, think of it as analogous to "Dad's Army" if you are old enough to remember that on the telly. I don't know what that one was really called.

So I think that the bill is a nonevent.

leftysergeant · 21st March 2011, 01:24 AM

Federal law does provide for a state-level military force under the command of the governor of each state, and gives only vague directions as to how they shall be organized.

They cannot be placed under federal command unless there is a general mobilization of every person capable of doing anything to support the war effort. I know that we have a Washington State Guard headquarter at Camp Murray, but I have never encountered them on any kind of operational exercise or seen them called up to fight wild fires or do flood responce.

Only the timing and place worries me about this. As deranged as Brewer is, can we count on her not trying to use such a force as her personal Schuetzstaffel? I wouldn't put it past the guanophrenic little twit.

Uncle Otto · 21st March 2011, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by Puddle Duck

For any Brits, think of it as analogous to "Dad's Army" if you are old enough to remember that on the telly. I don't know what that one was really called.

It was simply called the Home Guard. Very loosely, the German equivalent was the Volkssturm. Mostly older men and teenage boys who would not have normally been considered for military service, or those who otherwise could not go into the regular services. Here's a bit on the British version------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(United_Kingdom)

The Mutha · 21st March 2011, 05:45 AM

Texas has a State Guard. http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/ My BIL is and has been a very active member for about six years now. Dennis was an MP in the Army right out of high school, but didn't do anything militarily again until joining this group in his early 50s..

So far, they've run emergency shelters during hurricane evacuations and done crowd and parking control for events like Wings Over Houston. Whenever they're "deployed" by the State, Dennis gets paid, but it's like $200 for a week of running an emergency shelter. They don't get paid for manning events for parking and crowd control, that I'm aware of.

They don't open carry weapons while on duty, although most of them have CCLs.

Uncle Otto · 21st March 2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by The Mutha

Texas has a State Guard. http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/ My BIL is and has been a very active member for about six years now. Dennis was an MP in the Army right out of high school, but didn't do anything militarily again until joining this group in his early 50s..

So far, they've run emergency shelters during hurricane evacuations and done crowd and parking control for events like Wings Over Houston. Whenever they're "deployed" by the State, Dennis gets paid, but it's like $200 for a week of running an emergency shelter. They don't get paid for manning events for parking and crowd control, that I'm aware of.

They don't open carry weapons while on duty, although most of them have CCLs.

A lot of police departments also have unarmed Auxiliaries that perform the same types of functions. We have one in my city. I don't know if they're paid or not.

eeyore1954 · 21st March 2011, 12:13 PM

I wonder how many Governors do not have someone who is trying to get a recall going.

Alferd_Packer · 22nd March 2011, 12:06 PM

A bit of a gem from Russell Pearce:

Quote:

PEARCE: U.S. history, most of us weren’t around when the Constitution was written. But you remember we kind of existed before Congress, the states. We created the Congress, we created the federal government, by compact. Do you know what existed before the Congress, the states? Do you know, you’re not a citizen of the United States. You’re a citizen of a sovereign state. The fifty sovereign states makes up United States of America, we’re citizens of those sovereign states. It is not a delegated authority. It’s an inherent authority that states have over the federal government. [applause] It’s about time somebody gets it right!

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/21/...erism-citizen/

"What a maroon!"

leftysergeant · 22nd March 2011, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

A bit of a gem from Russell Pearce:

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/21/...erism-citizen/

"What a maroon!"

Pearce may be seeing this as a way to mobilize for the RaHoWa.

Swagomatic · 22nd March 2011, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

Pearce may be seeing this as a way to mobilize for the RaHoWa.

Things here in AZ aren't quite that bad. Believe it or not, white supremacists are still the fringe minority here - in spite of Russell Pearce's efforts to the contrary.

leftysergeant · 22nd March 2011, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Swagomatic

Things here in AZ aren't quite that bad. Believe it or not, white supremacists are still the fringe minority here - in spite of Russell Pearce's efforts to the contrary.

Have you ever heard the term "useful idiots?"

thaiboxerken · 22nd March 2011, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Swagomatic

Things here in AZ aren't quite that bad. Believe it or not, white supremacists are still the fringe minority here - in spite of Russell Pearce's efforts to the contrary.

One is your Governor, in my opinion.

Swagomatic · 22nd March 2011, 04:21 PM

I think I understand the term, but you obviously have some special meaning you want to convey, so why don't you explain it to me?

Swagomatic · 22nd March 2011, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

One is your Governor, in my opinion.

Careful now, he's only Governor when he and Jan Brewer are behind closed doors.

Piscivore · 22nd March 2011, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

Have you ever heard the term "useful idiots?"

Have you ever heard the term "you don't live here, so what the **** makes you think you know about all it, why don't go make Wisconson the subject of your precious little partisan idiotlogic battles for awhile?"

ETA: To paraphrase Yossarian: "The enemy is anyone spewing uncritical rhetoric, no matter which side he's on".

Yeah, we've got problems. Yeah, we've got some idiots and hatemongers in office... but they're our problems and our idiots, and we'll deal with them.

thaiboxerken · 22nd March 2011, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

Have you ever heard the term "you don't live here, so what the **** makes you think you know about all it, why don't go make Wisconson the subject of your precious little partisan idiotlogic battles for awhile?"

For some reason, that argument makes no logical sense.

Piscivore · 22nd March 2011, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

For some reason, that argument makes no logical sense.

"Piss off, out-of-state agitator" isn't really a logical argument.

thaiboxerken · 22nd March 2011, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

"Piss off, out-of-state agitator" isn't really a logical argument.

Then it can be dismissed, carry on.

leftysergeant · 22nd March 2011, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Swagomatic

I think I understand the term, but you obviously have some special meaning you want to convey, so why don't you explain it to me?

The white nationalists know they will never have the nubers they need to pull it off. But they can, ideally, convince a bunch of morons to fight for a cause that is not in their best interests by convincing them that they are fighting for something else. Brewer and Pearce are building a cult of personality around themselves and it is unlikely that the State Guard, under Brewer's command, would be totally staffed at the higher levels by rational people, but rather, by followersx of Brewer and Pearce.

They are dangerous.

Swagomatic · 22nd March 2011, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

The white nationalists know they will never have the nubers they need to pull it off. But they can, ideally, convince a bunch of morons to fight for a cause that is not in their best interests by convincing them that they are fighting for something else. Brewer and Pearce are building a cult of personality around themselves and it is unlikely that the State Guard, under Brewer's command, would be totally staffed at the higher levels by rational people, but rather, by followersx of Brewer and Pearce.

They are dangerous.

I agree that the idea of a state guard is absurd and unnecessary, but the notion that Jan Brewer and Russell Pearce are the leaders of some "cult of personality" is beyond ridiculous.

leftysergeant · 22nd March 2011, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Swagomatic

I agree that the idea of a state guard is absurd and unnecessary, but the notion that Jan Brewer and Russell Pearce are the leaders of some "cult of personality" is beyond ridiculous.

The concept of a State Guard is totally rational and is provided for under federal law. It can, however, be used in a dangerous way by a corrupt governor if adequate safeguards are not built into the organizing law.

Pearce and Brewer do appear to be attempting to form a cult of personality. Their flamboyant posturing is the first indicator of that.

Dangerous.

Swagomatic · 23rd March 2011, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

The concept of a State Guard is totally rational and is provided for under federal law. It can, however, be used in a dangerous way by a corrupt governor if adequate safeguards are not built into the organizing law.

Pearce and Brewer do appear to be attempting to form a cult of personality. Their flamboyant posturing is the first indicator of that.

Dangerous.

The National Guard already exists and is sufficient. This state, Arizona, does not even have enough tax revenue to properly fund K-8 education. That's the absurdity of the situation. Our economy is in the dumper, yet somehow there is money to fund a new State Guard. That kind of thing does not sell well here. Especially to the business community.

You might imagine that everyone here loves Russell Pearce and Jan Brewer, but you are dead wrong. There is no "cult of personality." In fact, I believe that for such a "cult" to exist, its leader must have a personality in the first place. I give you Jan and Russell as my primary evidence.

Piscivore · 23rd March 2011, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Swagomatic

You might imagine that everyone here loves Russell Pearce and Jan Brewer, but you are dead wrong. There is no "cult of personality." In fact, I believe that for such a "cult" to exist, its leader must have a personality in the first place. I give you Jan and Russell as my primary evidence.

Too right. Even asignifigant portion of Republicans here think Brewer is a joke. She got voted in because she was made to look like a big anti-Obama hero for signing the immigration law, but every time she opens her mouth she sticks a few more toes in.

The only "cult of personality" in this state is the one surrounding Arpaio, and that one's cracking.

10th March 2011, 08:27 AM	#3
Swagomatic Homer Simpson Analogue Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,848	Well, I thought things were strange here in the late 80's when Evan Mecham was elected and then recalled. Now, we have a governor who is three ranks above her level of incompetence and who is a hand puppet for the fringe right wing senate president. Seriously, the political atmosphere in this state is absolutely bizarre. Competent, intelligent people rarely run for office here - and who can blame them?
	__________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

17th March 2011, 09:30 PM	#5
Whiplash Acting like a maniac Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Shipwrecked and Comatose Posts: 5,389	retracted. I am leaving, for real this time. Farewell all. It's been real. Sorta.
	__________________ Ken Buddha.. a smile, two bangs, and a religion. On the ricochet.. it's gonna hit you. It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Last edited by Whiplash; 17th March 2011 at 10:30 PM.

18th March 2011, 12:07 AM	#7
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	Jan Brewer came into power when Janet Napalatino went to work for Obama, so to some extent that was not a we-the-voters doing. My perspective (trust me, always flawed) is that she was surprisingly moderate during her first term. I actually started liking her, she seemed more centrist. It seemed like some gears were turning. Then just before last election, the first one she actually had to run for office - things changed rapidly. The state Republican power brokers seemed to think she was a bit too centrist and began working to get rid of her in the Republican primary. In reaction to that, Jan started supporting this weird stuff on immigration laws and following the storyline of private prison system companies. "Bring us your rapists, murderers, etc yearning to be free". So long story and an election later, she is pretty much a puppet. Her public performance during the election has sort of made her a hostage to whatever wind blows from the Republican leadership. The real personality of government has been people like Russell Pearce. He has his own website, (sans neo-Nazi friends). http://www.russellpearce.com/ If Jan Brewer went, I doubt we would see much change. whiplash Sorry to see anyone go. I don't remember any of your posts though. I suspect would be much the same for me...
	Last edited by Kopji; 18th March 2011 at 12:10 AM.

18th March 2011, 09:27 AM	#10
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,773	Originally Posted by leftysergeant Now the guanophrenic little twit is talking about creating a State Guard, which is withn the law, but it is troubling on many levels that she would do so. The first concern, or course, is how she intends to pay for it. How will command be structured. (This is really, really, I mesan really FREAKING HUGE.) I don't see that twit of a governor doing the job you would expect of a butterbar fresh from OCS once the units are formed. That the whacktard might have some idea of comming the State Guard to support her personally should scare the crap out of every citizen who has a clue about power sharing in the pre-Gorby Soviet Union. BAD freaking dieda It does scare the crap out of me. The actual bill is less than a page long THE BILL For any reason the governor deems she can create this army funded by national guard money. It would be under her control only. My biggest fear is armed and deputized civilians patrolling the boarder with the legal authority to commit acts of vigilantly justice. You know those minute men and such are just itching to start firing south.
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,773	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

18th March 2011, 02:09 PM	#12
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,276	Originally Posted by Whiplash retracted. I am leaving, for real this time. Farewell all. It's been real. Sorta. Don't let the door...well, you know the rest.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

10th March 2011, 05:34 AM	#2
C_Felix Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Right outside Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,041	Links? I watched the video, but, that is pulpiting (is that a word?)

17th March 2011, 06:30 PM	#4
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	Seems like wishful thinking.

17th March 2011, 10:11 PM	#6
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	I thought Mecham was tossed out of office for corruption? I read the OP, watched some of the video, and kept thinking this might turn rational. No, I would not have voted for Brewer: Her policy is wrong. And if I were living in Arizona, I'd vote for recall. But I don't have to engage in smear. The woman's wrong, her policies are wrong, and that ought to be the end of it.

18th March 2011, 09:06 AM	#8
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Whiplash retracted. I am leaving, for real this time. Farewell all. It's been real. Sorta. Why? Wish you'd stay.

18th March 2011, 09:12 AM	#9
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Kopji The real personality of government has been people like Russell Pearce. He has his own website, (sans neo-Nazi friends). http://www.russellpearce.com/ If Jan Brewer went, I doubt we would see much change. Forgive the snip, but I wanted to keep it simple. Read up on this guy. While some of what he supports is good, valid, and worthwhile, there's a lot that just plain scares the hell out of me. His support for Ready, and his forwarding of mail from white supremacists isn't simply ill considered, it smacks of support for this kind of garbage. I don't think a recall of Brewer has a chance in hell, but I'd still sign on simply to voice my disapproval of her actions.

18th March 2011, 02:04 PM	#11
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by Biscuit It does scare the crap out of me. The actual bill is less than a page long THE BILL For any reason the governor deems she can create this army funded by national guard money. It would be under her control only. My biggest fear is armed and deputized civilians patrolling the boarder with the legal authority to commit acts of vigilantly justice. You know those minute men and such are just itching to start firing south. When citizens were patrolling the border they simply reported to the INS when they saw illegal entry into the country. The INS did nothing, but at least they were made aware of what was going on. This scares the hell out of me, because now, these people will not only report, but they'll have the authority to shoot, and will have the full protection of the government for vigilante acts. What the hell is Brewer thinking?

18th March 2011, 02:39 PM	#13
Roadtoad Bufo Caminus Inedibilis Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Gone. Posts: 15,738	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Don't let the door...well, you know the rest. Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel!

18th March 2011, 03:29 PM	#14
Uncle Otto Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 356	Originally Posted by Biscuit It does scare the crap out of me. The actual bill is less than a page long THE BILL For any reason the governor deems she can create this army funded by national guard money. It would be under her control only. My biggest fear is armed and deputized civilians patrolling the boarder with the legal authority to commit acts of vigilantly justice. You know those minute men and such are just itching to start firing south. What the bill doesn't say is just what this "guard" is supposed to do. They already have a state highway patrol agency. The governor's office already has control over them. This is just political grandstanding. I swear, some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen comes out of state legislatures. They pass rotten legislation and then wait until someone contests it in court. What a damned waste.
	Last edited by Uncle Otto; 18th March 2011 at 03:43 PM.

18th March 2011, 03:32 PM	#15
Swagomatic Homer Simpson Analogue Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,848	Originally Posted by Roadtoad I thought Mecham was tossed out of office for corruption? I read the OP, watched some of the video, and kept thinking this might turn rational. No, I would not have voted for Brewer: Her policy is wrong. And if I were living in Arizona, I'd vote for recall. But I don't have to engage in smear. The woman's wrong, her policies are wrong, and that ought to be the end of it. Well, there was a recall and an impeachment. The recall was successful, but Mecham was then impeached before the recall election (at least that's what I remember). Following that, Rose Mofford, the Secretary of State, became the new governor. Jan Brewer is really out of her depth. I almost feel sorry for her at times. It seems she is groping for something halfway intelligent to say. It looks like maybe the legislature has finally realized that there is real state business that must be done. Enough with the official state firearms and the private armies.
	__________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

18th March 2011, 10:32 PM	#16
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	Originally Posted by Roadtoad Forgive the snip, but I wanted to keep it simple. Read up on this guy. While some of what he supports is good, valid, and worthwhile, there's a lot that just plain scares the hell out of me. His support for Ready, and his forwarding of mail from white supremacists isn't simply ill considered, it smacks of support for this kind of garbage. I don't think a recall of Brewer has a chance in hell, but I'd still sign on simply to voice my disapproval of her actions. No problem on the snip. I'll have to look for some guidance from that bad boy upchurch on what the limits are. lol Recalling politicians is a very time honored Arizona tradition. For my first few years in Flagstaff, I don't remember any city council member going a term without having a recall... The defeat of five of Pearce's immigration bills is something of a slap in his face, and certainly some cold water on Republican leadership. I pretty much believe what the Republicans have said about it: it is not the public they are listening to on this, it is the business community. Just from their public statements, they've made the error of thinking that all business leaders agree with them. I know I hear that Republican are all big business and such, but I really don't see that as being true. Plenty of businesses have a liberal or progressive leaning.

19th March 2011, 09:48 AM	#17
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,773	Originally Posted by Uncle Otto What the bill doesn't say is just what this "guard" is supposed to do. They already have a state highway patrol agency. The governor's office already has control over them. This is just political grandstanding. I swear, some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen comes out of state legislatures. They pass rotten legislation and then wait until someone contests it in court. What a damned waste. It doesn't say what they are for, where they will get their equipment from, or who will be in it! Its just a bill that allows Brewer to use federal money to create her own army at her disposal. Could she force people to join? Would there be any training? YIKES!
Biscuit Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,773	__________________ “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

19th March 2011, 01:32 PM	#18
Uncle Otto Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 356	Originally Posted by Biscuit It doesn't say what they are for, where they will get their equipment from, or who will be in it! Its just a bill that allows Brewer to use federal money to create her own army at her disposal. Could she force people to join? Would there be any training? YIKES! Im not going to get too exited about it. The only thing I can't find online so far is just where all the funding for the National Guard comes from. I don't know if the individual states pay for any of it or not. If it's all federal money, she probably couldn't use it for such a private guard type organization to begin with. I'm just guessing though. That bill really doesn't say much of anything.

21st March 2011, 12:27 AM	#19
Puddle Duck Scholar Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Baja Arizona Posts: 72	I don't think it is a big thing. Big caveat; I'm giving info that is about 30 years old and things might have changed. There are a bunch of state forces (call them Home Guards) that exist around the country, but I no longer know which states have them. They pretty much function and are using the same template as the National Guard, but are totally state owned, and are at various levels of manning from operational units, to Cadre only, to existing only on paper. Right now Brewer controls the National Guard and can direct them for whatever she wants within the law. The thing she can't control is getting the Guard nationalized. The new guard would be pretty much the same. The funding for the new group would come from the state only and would be volunteers only. No draft. No federal money. Training would be what the state could afford. I would guess that the Feds could do the same thing to the new group (nationalize them) if they wanted to, but your guess is as good as mine. When WWII started, the National Guard was called up and shipped off. The states then formed what was called the Home Guard and dropped it into the National Guard template. They were totally state run units & were supposedly there to fill all functions of the Natl. Guard, but were funded only by the states and were filled by veterans, 4Fs, and/or any one else that would not be pulled into the military. The town where I was born formed a rifle company, and my father was the First Sergeant. He was classified married with children and worked in a critical defense industry, so the military didn't want him. However he went through the National Guard routine as part of the Home Guard. For any Brits, think of it as analogous to "Dad's Army" if you are old enough to remember that on the telly. I don't know what that one was really called. So I think that the bill is a nonevent.

21st March 2011, 01:24 AM	#20
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Federal law does provide for a state-level military force under the command of the governor of each state, and gives only vague directions as to how they shall be organized. They cannot be placed under federal command unless there is a general mobilization of every person capable of doing anything to support the war effort. I know that we have a Washington State Guard headquarter at Camp Murray, but I have never encountered them on any kind of operational exercise or seen them called up to fight wild fires or do flood responce. Only the timing and place worries me about this. As deranged as Brewer is, can we count on her not trying to use such a force as her personal Schuetzstaffel? I wouldn't put it past the guanophrenic little twit.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

21st March 2011, 04:40 AM	#21
Uncle Otto Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 356	Originally Posted by Puddle Duck For any Brits, think of it as analogous to "Dad's Army" if you are old enough to remember that on the telly. I don't know what that one was really called. It was simply called the Home Guard. Very loosely, the German equivalent was the Volkssturm. Mostly older men and teenage boys who would not have normally been considered for military service, or those who otherwise could not go into the regular services. Here's a bit on the British version------------ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(United_Kingdom)

21st March 2011, 05:45 AM	#22
The Mutha thoroughly confused, but valiantly trying... Join Date: May 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 1,504	Texas has a State Guard. http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/ My BIL is and has been a very active member for about six years now. Dennis was an MP in the Army right out of high school, but didn't do anything militarily again until joining this group in his early 50s.. So far, they've run emergency shelters during hurricane evacuations and done crowd and parking control for events like Wings Over Houston. Whenever they're "deployed" by the State, Dennis gets paid, but it's like $200 for a week of running an emergency shelter. They don't get paid for manning events for parking and crowd control, that I'm aware of. They don't open carry weapons while on duty, although most of them have CCLs.

21st March 2011, 10:33 AM	#23
Uncle Otto Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 356	Originally Posted by The Mutha Texas has a State Guard. http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/ My BIL is and has been a very active member for about six years now. Dennis was an MP in the Army right out of high school, but didn't do anything militarily again until joining this group in his early 50s.. So far, they've run emergency shelters during hurricane evacuations and done crowd and parking control for events like Wings Over Houston. Whenever they're "deployed" by the State, Dennis gets paid, but it's like $200 for a week of running an emergency shelter. They don't get paid for manning events for parking and crowd control, that I'm aware of. They don't open carry weapons while on duty, although most of them have CCLs. A lot of police departments also have unarmed Auxiliaries that perform the same types of functions. We have one in my city. I don't know if they're paid or not.

21st March 2011, 12:13 PM	#24
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,121	I wonder how many Governors do not have someone who is trying to get a recall going.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,121

22nd March 2011, 12:06 PM	#25
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,214	A bit of a gem from Russell Pearce: Quote: PEARCE: U.S. history, most of us weren’t around when the Constitution was written. But you remember we kind of existed before Congress, the states. We created the Congress, we created the federal government, by compact. Do you know what existed before the Congress, the states? Do you know, you’re not a citizen of the United States. You’re a citizen of a sovereign state. The fifty sovereign states makes up United States of America, we’re citizens of those sovereign states. It is not a delegated authority. It’s an inherent authority that states have over the federal government. [applause] It’s about time somebody gets it right! http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/21/...erism-citizen/ "What a maroon!"
	__________________ No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post

22nd March 2011, 03:10 PM	#26
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer A bit of a gem from Russell Pearce: http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/21/...erism-citizen/ "What a maroon!" Pearce may be seeing this as a way to mobilize for the RaHoWa.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

22nd March 2011, 03:50 PM	#27
Swagomatic Homer Simpson Analogue Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,848	Originally Posted by leftysergeant Pearce may be seeing this as a way to mobilize for the RaHoWa. Things here in AZ aren't quite that bad. Believe it or not, white supremacists are still the fringe minority here - in spite of Russell Pearce's efforts to the contrary.
	__________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

22nd March 2011, 04:14 PM	#28
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Swagomatic Things here in AZ aren't quite that bad. Believe it or not, white supremacists are still the fringe minority here - in spite of Russell Pearce's efforts to the contrary. Have you ever heard the term "useful idiots?"
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

22nd March 2011, 04:19 PM	#29
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	Originally Posted by Swagomatic Things here in AZ aren't quite that bad. Believe it or not, white supremacists are still the fringe minority here - in spite of Russell Pearce's efforts to the contrary. One is your Governor, in my opinion.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

22nd March 2011, 04:21 PM	#30
Swagomatic Homer Simpson Analogue Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,848	I think I understand the term, but you obviously have some special meaning you want to convey, so why don't you explain it to me?
	__________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

22nd March 2011, 04:22 PM	#31
Swagomatic Homer Simpson Analogue Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,848	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken One is your Governor, in my opinion. Careful now, he's only Governor when he and Jan Brewer are behind closed doors.
	__________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

22nd March 2011, 04:31 PM	#32
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,462	Originally Posted by leftysergeant Have you ever heard the term "useful idiots?" Have you ever heard the term "you don't live here, so what the **** makes you think you know about all it, why don't go make Wisconson the subject of your precious little partisan idiotlogic battles for awhile?" ETA: To paraphrase Yossarian: "The enemy is anyone spewing uncritical rhetoric, no matter which side he's on". Yeah, we've got problems. Yeah, we've got some idiots and hatemongers in office... but they're our problems and our idiots, and we'll deal with them.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen Last edited by Piscivore; 22nd March 2011 at 04:39 PM.

22nd March 2011, 04:38 PM	#33
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	Originally Posted by Piscivore Have you ever heard the term "you don't live here, so what the **** makes you think you know about all it, why don't go make Wisconson the subject of your precious little partisan idiotlogic battles for awhile?" For some reason, that argument makes no logical sense.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

22nd March 2011, 04:42 PM	#34
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,462	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken For some reason, that argument makes no logical sense. "Piss off, out-of-state agitator" isn't really a logical argument.
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

22nd March 2011, 04:45 PM	#35
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,965	Originally Posted by Piscivore "Piss off, out-of-state agitator" isn't really a logical argument. Then it can be dismissed, carry on.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

22nd March 2011, 04:48 PM	#36
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Swagomatic I think I understand the term, but you obviously have some special meaning you want to convey, so why don't you explain it to me? The white nationalists know they will never have the nubers they need to pull it off. But they can, ideally, convince a bunch of morons to fight for a cause that is not in their best interests by convincing them that they are fighting for something else. Brewer and Pearce are building a cult of personality around themselves and it is unlikely that the State Guard, under Brewer's command, would be totally staffed at the higher levels by rational people, but rather, by followersx of Brewer and Pearce. They are dangerous.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.