How do we know dolphins are so intelligent?

GreyWanderer · 6th March 2003, 10:04 AM

The subject says it all.

6th March 2003, 10:07 AM

Because they don't watch television?

6th March 2003, 10:16 AM

You can read up on some dolphin "achievements" here.

http://www.uga.edu/srel/ecoviews10-8-00.htm

6th March 2003, 10:20 AM

If they're so dang smart, why can't they figure out that hanging out with tuna is a bad idea?

KIDDING.

scotth · 6th March 2003, 10:24 AM

The ability to be trained to do some surprisingly complex tasks is a big clue.

There has been a large amount of research on the subject.

You may find this of particular interest.
http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html

6th March 2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GreyWanderer
The subject says it all.

They can recognise themselves in mirrors for a kick off.

scotth · 6th March 2003, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

They can recognise themselves in mirrors for a kick off.

OMG, I am gonna agree with an II post.

Actually, my link is a very nice summary of research done on the just that using the "mirror mark" test.

Interesting stuff.

GreyWanderer · 6th March 2003, 11:03 AM

Thanks everyone. This answered my question.

Skeptical Greg · 6th March 2003, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

They can recognise themselves in mirrors for a kick off.

How was this determined?.. ( seriously interested )

scotth · 6th March 2003, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes

How was this determined?.. ( seriously interested )

Follow the link I posted.

Skeptical Greg · 6th March 2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scotth

Follow the link I posted.

Thanks.

Interesting read..

neutrino_cannon · 6th March 2003, 04:25 PM

Well, it certainly isn't on the basis of brain/mass ratio, otherwise we would consider moles and sharks very intelligent.

Humphreys · 7th March 2003, 04:49 AM

If they are so intelligent, how come they keep getting caught in those fishing nets?

Skeptical Greg · 7th March 2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Humphreys
If they are so intelligent, how come they keep getting caught in those fishing nets?

Reminds me about the joke regarding the Seafood Restaurant at the " Sea World" type, amusement park.

The person was contemplating the idea that they were dining on a " slow learner "...

Segnosaur · 7th March 2003, 12:32 PM

"If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in Igloos?"
- Cartman

serratia · 7th March 2003, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Segnosaur
"If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in Igloos?"
- Cartman

"intelligent and friendly on rye bread...with some mayonnaise..."

- ibid.

7th March 2003, 01:46 PM

If dolphins are so smart, then why...

Oh, wait a minute.

7th March 2003, 02:08 PM

Once again proving the famous "There's an Onion article for every topic" theory...

Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs -- "Oh ****," Says Humanity

A related quote:

"Humans think that they're smarter than dolphins because they've developed war, the atom bomb, and culture, while all dolphins do is swim around all day and have sex. Dolphins think that they're smarter than humans for the exact same reasons."
-- Douglas Adams

Underemployed · 7th March 2003, 02:10 PM

Paraphrasing from Douglas Adams' So Long And Thanks For All The Fish:

"Humans consider themselves more intelligent for inventing cars, money and wars instead of swimming about all day having a good time. Dolphins consider themselves more intelligent for doing the exact opposite."

I certainly wouldn't mind a spell as a dolphin. But having seen a few documentaries on the real lives of dolphins in the wild they are certainly no better off than we are, and are quite capable of being extremely mean to one another. Which in itself could be a sign of intelligence...

7th March 2003, 02:13 PM

I think my paraphrase got more to the heart of the issue than yours...though I can see why you might be averse to quoting it more faithfully...

Soapy Sam · 7th March 2003, 03:38 PM

How smart, actually, do you have to be to recognise yourself in a mirror? I mean on a good day, I get it right more often than chance would predict and gods know I'm pretty thick.

How good is dolphin vision, anyway? I thought they used echo location to identify things. I can't see close up vision being that useful to dolphins. It's not like they do a lot of close up fine work, shaving and stuff.

I agree with Larry Niven, that if they have shown one piece of survival oriented intelligence , it's that they don't ever kill humans if there are witnesses, an error that may shortly bring about the end of 350 million years of shark evolution.

Jim_MDP · 8th March 2003, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam

I agree with Larry Niven, that if they have shown one piece of survival oriented intelligence , it's that they don't ever kill humans if there are witnesses, an error that may shortly bring about the end of 350 million years of shark evolution.

"Cradle" ?

Baker · 10th March 2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

The studies began in 1998 at the New York Aquarium with two captive-bred bottlenose dolphins. A control was first established by marking the dolphins with a marker filled with water rather than ink. After several repetitions, they were marked with circles and triangles and then sham marked once again.

In 16 video-taped repetitions, each dolphin repeatedly swam directly to the mirror to investigate the place where it had been marked, often twisting and turning to expose the proper spot.

Fascinating story I heard the military uses dolphins for setting mines under enemy ships and subs among other task.

sadluxation · 11th March 2003, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rwald
Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs -- "Oh ****," Says Humanity

A related quote:

"Humans think that they're smarter than dolphins because they've developed war, the atom bomb, and culture, while all dolphins do is swim around all day and have sex. Dolphins think that they're smarter than humans for the exact same reasons."
-- Douglas Adams

Did rwald post this on porpoise? Nyk, nyk, nyk...

11th March 2003, 06:11 PM

What, it doesn't get your seal of approval?

11th March 2003, 08:02 PM

The info on the mirror test is interesting, but I have some questions. Presumably, the dolphins were familiar with the mirror and had been given time to check it out. Then someone draws on them with a pen with only water for ink, leaving no mark. The dolphins went to the mirror? Then someone draws on them and leaves a mark of some kind and the dolphins look in the mirror again. Was there anything about the test design that may have given the dolphins the idea that when someone uses a pen or sham pen on them they are supposed to go to the mirror? What was the purpose of the sham pen? If the dolphins were looking for a mark from the pen, wouldn't this confuse them? Did they behave differently to the sham marking?

I've seen footage of a test like this and I did get the impression the dolphins were looking at themselves in the same way we do. I'm just curious about how we interpret this behaviour.

6th March 2003, 10:04 AM	#1
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	How do we know dolphins are so intelligent? The subject says it all.
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	__________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord Of The Rings

6th March 2003, 10:07 AM	#2
Guest Posts: n/a	Because they don't watch television?
Guest Posts: n/a

6th March 2003, 10:16 AM	#3
apocalypse Guest Posts: n/a	You can read up on some dolphin "achievements" here. http://www.uga.edu/srel/ecoviews10-8-00.htm
apocalypse Guest Posts: n/a

6th March 2003, 10:20 AM	#4
Guest Posts: n/a	If they're so dang smart, why can't they figure out that hanging out with tuna is a bad idea? KIDDING.
Guest Posts: n/a

6th March 2003, 10:24 AM	#6
Interesting Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Re: How do we know dolphins are so intelligent? Quote: Originally posted by GreyWanderer The subject says it all. They can recognise themselves in mirrors for a kick off.
Interesting Ian Guest Posts: n/a

6th March 2003, 10:24 AM	#5
scotth Atheist Political Candidate Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: DFW, TX area Posts: 1,801	The ability to be trained to do some surprisingly complex tasks is a big clue. There has been a large amount of research on the subject. You may find this of particular interest. http://www.jhu.edu/~newslett/05-3-01/Science/2.html

6th March 2003, 10:31 AM	#7
scotth Atheist Political Candidate Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: DFW, TX area Posts: 1,801	Re: Re: How do we know dolphins are so intelligent? Quote: Originally posted by Interesting Ian They can recognise themselves in mirrors for a kick off. OMG, I am gonna agree with an II post. Actually, my link is a very nice summary of research done on the just that using the "mirror mark" test. Interesting stuff.

6th March 2003, 11:03 AM	#8
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	Thanks everyone. This answered my question.
GreyWanderer Thinker Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 140	__________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord Of The Rings

6th March 2003, 12:10 PM	#9
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Re: Re: How do we know dolphins are so intelligent? Quote: Originally posted by Interesting Ian They can recognise themselves in mirrors for a kick off. How was this determined?.. ( seriously interested )
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

6th March 2003, 12:11 PM	#10
scotth Atheist Political Candidate Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: DFW, TX area Posts: 1,801	Re: Re: Re: How do we know dolphins are so intelligent? Quote: Originally posted by Diogenes How was this determined?.. ( seriously interested ) Follow the link I posted.

6th March 2003, 12:40 PM	#11
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Re: Re: Re: Re: How do we know dolphins are so intelligent? Quote: Originally posted by scotth Follow the link I posted. Thanks. Interesting read..
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

6th March 2003, 04:25 PM	#12
neutrino_cannon Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Seventh circle of limbo Posts: 2,574	Well, it certainly isn't on the basis of brain/mass ratio, otherwise we would consider moles and sharks very intelligent.
	__________________ "Man would have been too happy, if, limiting himself to the visible objects which interested him, he had employed, to perfect his real sciences, his laws, his morals, his education, one half-the efforts he has put into his researches on the Divinity" -Percy Bysshe Shelley, The Necessity of Atheism

7th March 2003, 04:49 AM	#13
Humphreys Supercalifragilisticskepticalidocious Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Above some Mexicans. Posts: 1,613	If they are so intelligent, how come they keep getting caught in those fishing nets?

7th March 2003, 06:06 AM	#14
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past 'Resume Speed' Posts: 12,873	Quote: Originally posted by Humphreys If they are so intelligent, how come they keep getting caught in those fishing nets? Reminds me about the joke regarding the Seafood Restaurant at the " Sea World" type, amusement park. The person was contemplating the idea that they were dining on a " slow learner "...
	__________________ " Somewhere between Jesus dying on the cross, and a giant bunny hiding eggs,there seems to be a gap in information. " Stan - Southpark Prove your computer is not a wimp ! Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

7th March 2003, 12:32 PM	#15
Segnosaur Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 6,070	"If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in Igloos?" - Cartman
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I cheered when then the WTC came down. - UndercoverElephant (a.k.a. JustGeoff) I cheer Bin Laden... - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Bin Laden delivered justice - JustGeoff (a.k.a. UndercoverElephant) Men shop for lingerie the way kids shop for breakfast cereal... they will buy something they know nothing about, just to get the prize inside. - Jeff Foxworthy

7th March 2003, 01:40 PM	#16
serratia New Blood Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7	Quote: Originally posted by Segnosaur "If dolphins are so smart, why do they live in Igloos?" - Cartman "intelligent and friendly on rye bread...with some mayonnaise..." - ibid.
serratia New Blood Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 7

7th March 2003, 01:46 PM	#17
Guest Posts: n/a	If dolphins are so smart, then why... Oh, wait a minute.
Guest Posts: n/a

7th March 2003, 02:08 PM	#18
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	Once again proving the famous "There's an Onion article for every topic" theory... Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs -- "Oh ****," Says Humanity A related quote: "Humans think that they're smarter than dolphins because they've developed war, the atom bomb, and culture, while all dolphins do is swim around all day and have sex. Dolphins think that they're smarter than humans for the exact same reasons." -- Douglas Adams
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

7th March 2003, 02:10 PM	#19
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	Paraphrasing from Douglas Adams' So Long And Thanks For All The Fish: "Humans consider themselves more intelligent for inventing cars, money and wars instead of swimming about all day having a good time. Dolphins consider themselves more intelligent for doing the exact opposite." I certainly wouldn't mind a spell as a dolphin. But having seen a few documentaries on the real lives of dolphins in the wild they are certainly no better off than we are, and are quite capable of being extremely mean to one another. Which in itself could be a sign of intelligence...
Underemployed Muse Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 764	__________________ There is no punchy, conclusive final sentence for this post.

7th March 2003, 02:13 PM	#20
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	I think my paraphrase got more to the heart of the issue than yours...though I can see why you might be averse to quoting it more faithfully...
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

7th March 2003, 03:38 PM	#21
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	How smart, actually, do you have to be to recognise yourself in a mirror? I mean on a good day, I get it right more often than chance would predict and gods know I'm pretty thick. How good is dolphin vision, anyway? I thought they used echo location to identify things. I can't see close up vision being that useful to dolphins. It's not like they do a lot of close up fine work, shaving and stuff. I agree with Larry Niven, that if they have shown one piece of survival oriented intelligence , it's that they don't ever kill humans if there are witnesses, an error that may shortly bring about the end of 350 million years of shark evolution.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

8th March 2003, 11:59 PM	#22
Jim_MDP Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 2,565	Quote: Originally posted by Soapy Sam I agree with Larry Niven, that if they have shown one piece of survival oriented intelligence , it's that they don't ever kill humans if there are witnesses, an error that may shortly bring about the end of 350 million years of shark evolution. "Cradle" ?
	__________________ ---------------------- "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

10th March 2003, 02:16 PM	#23
Baker Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,121	From scotth's link Quote: The studies began in 1998 at the New York Aquarium with two captive-bred bottlenose dolphins. A control was first established by marking the dolphins with a marker filled with water rather than ink. After several repetitions, they were marked with circles and triangles and then sham marked once again. In 16 video-taped repetitions, each dolphin repeatedly swam directly to the mirror to investigate the place where it had been marked, often twisting and turning to expose the proper spot. Fascinating story I heard the military uses dolphins for setting mines under enemy ships and subs among other task.
Baker Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,121

11th March 2003, 08:10 AM	#24
sadluxation Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London Posts: 336	Quote: Originally posted by rwald Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs -- "Oh ****," Says Humanity A related quote: "Humans think that they're smarter than dolphins because they've developed war, the atom bomb, and culture, while all dolphins do is swim around all day and have sex. Dolphins think that they're smarter than humans for the exact same reasons." -- Douglas Adams Did rwald post this on porpoise? Nyk, nyk, nyk...
	__________________ The World Famous and Award Winning (not to mention, modest) Skeptics in the Pub now on Facebook Nothing is better than homoeopathy!

11th March 2003, 06:11 PM	#25
rwald Guest Posts: n/a	What, it doesn't get your seal of approval?
rwald Guest Posts: n/a

11th March 2003, 08:02 PM	#26
spoonhandler Guest Posts: n/a	The info on the mirror test is interesting, but I have some questions. Presumably, the dolphins were familiar with the mirror and had been given time to check it out. Then someone draws on them with a pen with only water for ink, leaving no mark. The dolphins went to the mirror? Then someone draws on them and leaves a mark of some kind and the dolphins look in the mirror again. Was there anything about the test design that may have given the dolphins the idea that when someone uses a pen or sham pen on them they are supposed to go to the mirror? What was the purpose of the sham pen? If the dolphins were looking for a mark from the pen, wouldn't this confuse them? Did they behave differently to the sham marking? I've seen footage of a test like this and I did get the impression the dolphins were looking at themselves in the same way we do. I'm just curious about how we interpret this behaviour.
spoonhandler Guest Posts: n/a