[Moderated] Money - Page 6

Piscivore · 25th March 2011, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Oualawouzou

(Je continue en anglais, histoire de ne pas exclure la majorité de la communauté de la discussion, mais je suis prêt à retourner au français au besoin.)

Money is one tool some use to assert dominance over a group, but money isn't necessary to dominance. Dominance has advantages for the one on top, even with money out of the picture: liberty, personal glory (never underestimate the human ego!), choice of sexual mates...

Take money out of the picture, and the urge to dominate will still be there. There will be people that will prevent you from getting food unless you run off and bring them back a beer. There will be people that will prevent you from getting a beer until you cut some wood and bring it back to light their fire. Then, when you do bring back the beer to the first thug, he will let you take only half of the food you want until you bring him back a second beer. And while you're gone, he'll be having fun with your now-ex-girlfriend because she'd rather be with the guy who can supply her with food rather than with the guy who is being bullied around.

That's human nature. No system that relies first and foremost on humans being good to each other without incentive has ever worked when applied to anything bigger than a very small community from which troublesome individuals can be expelled.

This is exactly right. Getting rid of "money" would no more cure social inequality than getting rid of firearms would cure violence.

AdMan · 25th March 2011, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Tu as bien compris le principe de la survie du singe, l'humain qui a choisi de vivre en collectivité plutôt que de vivre seul. L'entraide a permis au singe de survivre et sa nature est de partager.

Gaetan! NO MONEY!

I think we should do like the monkeys/nous devrions faire comme les singes and give up the money right away. What do you think we should wait for? If we don't give up the money now, who will get it going? Don't you think we need to set an example? Give everyone our money is what we should do, like the monkeys. Do you agree?

NO MONEY!

Foolmewunz · 25th March 2011, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Remember when you are in Rome you got to live like the roman ,what you do is to open their eyes and change the world.

Unless your, say, Hannibal... or maybe the Vandals or Visigoths or Huns. Then, you just kill as many Romans as you can and take all their no-money-free-stuff. And their land. Oh, and the women .... can't forget the women.

timhau · 26th March 2011, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

This is exactly right. Getting rid of "money" would no more cure social inequality than getting rid of firearms would cure violence.

But it would ure firearm violence.

Until someone with access to a machine workshop spends a couple of minutes making a hand cannon, that is.

Foolmewunz · 26th March 2011, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Unless your, say, Hannibal... or maybe the Vandals or Visigoths or Huns. Then, you just kill as many Romans as you can and take all their no-money-free-stuff. And their land. Oh, and the women .... can't forget the women.

Your /= you're. Maroon!

Skeptic · 26th March 2011, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Oualawouzou

(Je continue en anglais, histoire de ne pas exclure la majorité de la communauté de la discussion, mais je suis prêt à retourner au français au besoin.)

Wait, I speak this language!

"J'aime la langue francaise" = "I love the tall French girl", right?

Gaetan · 27th March 2011, 10:13 AM

Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week.

RoboTimbo · 27th March 2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week.

Evidence? Other than you just saying it, I mean.

Piscivore · 27th March 2011, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week.

No. Money is simply the most efficient medium of exchange we have for trading work for goods.

And if you have to work two days to afford a damn chocolate bar, you need to get off the internet and get a real job.

Chaos · 27th March 2011, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week.

Well, if they don´t get paid for their chocolate, they aren´t going to make any chocolate. So in that sense they will work less, but I don´t think that´s a good thing.

Travis · 27th March 2011, 02:49 PM

An informal poll of how work will be divided in this utopia reveals a few flaws. First off there are an awful lot of Spartan warriors. But half of the Spartan warriors want to just chop up Persians all day and the other half want to blow up aliens. We have a surprising number of "nymphomaniacs" but only one doctor. Well we had two doctors but the one that knew what he was doing got fed up by our large number of Ax Twirlers and quit and now spends his time debating with a squirrel on a stump (we keep trying to tell him it is really a lawn ornament but he doesn't care). The other doctor has doubtful competency as most of her "remedies" involve tossing salt in the air while screaming like a banshee.

We also have no baker. We have a gal that used to be a baker but she now paints knock offs of Monet with kitchen condiments. They're actually pretty interesting but she demands forty barrels of lard for them and we have no lard in such quantities. Probably would help if we had someone that knew how to make more lard.....or barrels for that matter.

Now we need bread and since we don't want to disturb the condiment painter we grabbed the guy that used to teach at the school and forced him at gun point to make bread. This worked until he allied himself with the Spartans at which point we were put to work making wooden rocking chairs. Then the Spartans with guns allied with us after we which we slaughtered our former masters.

There was much bloodshed but still no bread......or lard. With the weaklings now exterminated we engaged to try and procure some of the stuff we no longer had. Turned out a guy in the next town over had loads of lard but wanted only bread for it. A guy in the town over from that had loads of bread but only wanted blue jeans for it. Nobody really had any blue jeans. At some point a bright spark thought that maybe we could quantify the value of labor on some sort of exchange medium that could then be used to "barter" with the other towns. We tried stamped cats at first but they ran away. Then we tried chiseled staffs but they proved too unwieldy. Eventually we settled on printed cloth because it was small and mass producible. We got a guy to make a machine to print them by promising him some of them to keep. He then used them to buy those condiment paintings to impress his girlfriend.

Gaetan · 15th April 2011, 12:26 PM

Another good point with the no money system is that when people do volontary work for others instead of working for themself there is a rise of spirituality of peoples on this planet.

RoboTimbo · 15th April 2011, 12:27 PM

This is some new use for the word "good" with which I was previously unfamiliar.

Sledge · 16th April 2011, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Piscivore

That is English, just a bit over your head maybe, I'm sorry.

A society without money is soon ruled by bullies. Here's why:
<SNIP>

Isn't this the point where the villagers decide something must be done, so they consult the old man? The old man tells them to go to the border and buy guns, only the villagers don't have any money, so the old man gives them his valuables. At the border town, the villagers meet a gunslinger who points out they'd be better off hiring gunmen, and it all ends up with a shoot out and noble deaths for four of our heroes.

Gaetan: I am at present medically unfit for work. What happens to me in your society?

Gaetan · 17th April 2011, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

Isn't this the point where the villagers decide something must be done, so they consult the old man? The old man tells them to go to the border and buy guns, only the villagers don't have any money, so the old man gives them his valuables. At the border town, the villagers meet a gunslinger who points out they'd be better off hiring gunmen, and it all ends up with a shoot out and noble deaths for four of our heroes.

Gaetan: I am at present medically unfit for work. What happens to me in your society?

If you are unfit to work you just don't have to work. With no money system this include no borders anymore so that natural resources be available for earth citizen profit and not only to few companies.

dafydd · 17th April 2011, 11:33 AM

If anyone here does not want their money I will pm them my account number.

dafydd · 17th April 2011, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

I foresee a great deal of fist fights breaking out in your utopia, Gaetan.

The Utopian police would have their hands full.

dafydd · 17th April 2011, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

My favorite job is counterfeiting. How much work am I going to have?

I'm a musician Gaetan. Our van is full of us and equipment. We have no room for goats,pigs,sheep,chickens,crates of eggs or sacks full of vegetables. Furthermore,I am a busy man and I do not have the time to barter said produce. Money is the ideal solution,there is nothing better.

RoboTimbo · 17th April 2011, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

If you are unfit to work you just don't have to work. With no money system this include no borders anymore so that natural resources be available for earth citizen profit and not only to few companies.

Half the people who work for me are unfit to work. What are we going to do with them? Since I'm a Wise Man, do I get to decide their fate?

dafydd · 17th April 2011, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Half the people who work for me are unfit to work. What are we going to do with them? Since I'm a Wise Man, do I get to decide their fate?

Wait a minute buddy,who said you could be a wise man? I'll fight you for the post. This Utopia ain't big enough for the both of us! Something has just struck me. I wonder if the Utopian police would be paid in donuts?

RoboTimbo · 17th April 2011, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Wait a minute buddy,who said you could be a wise man? I'll fight you for the post. This Utopia ain't big enough for the both of us! Something has just struck me. I wonder if the Utopian police would be paid in donuts?

I've got dibs on Oceania. You get your choice of Eurasia or Eastasia.

dafydd · 17th April 2011, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

I've got dibs on Oceania. You get your choice of Eurasia or Eastasia.

So I can have Bangkok? It's a deal.

dafydd · 17th April 2011, 03:17 PM

What would the Freemen On The Land do in this Utopia? What if they refused to contract into the barter system? They would all become robber barons.

Blue Mountain · 17th April 2011, 07:21 PM

Gaetan, in your barter society utopia, who strings and maintains the wires that bring the internet to your home? Who makes the fibre-optic cable on which the internet backbone is carried? Who invents and builds the lasers that are needed to light the fibre? Who builds the expensive and ultra-clean facilities that manufacture the chips that go into the routers that move the packets around the internet? Who builds and maintains the electrical grid that powers the internet?

Any society more advanced than hunter-gatherers has evolved some form of currency. And I wouldn't be surprised if certain hunter-gatherer societies had a medium of exchange, especially if they started trading with neighbours.

dtugg · 18th April 2011, 12:20 AM

It is too bad that such a system is unworkable. Not working while morons give me everything that I want would be awesome.

dafydd · 18th April 2011, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by dtugg

It is too bad that such a system is unworkable. Not working while morons give me everything that I want would be awesome.

You would be a monarch.

Gaetan · 18th April 2011, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

Wait a minute buddy,who said you could be a wise man? I'll fight you for the post. This Utopia ain't big enough for the both of us! Something has just struck me. I wonder if the Utopian police would be paid in donuts?

With no money system, crimes for profit will be nonsence and useless, think about all resources saved in closing prisons, think about all resources saved by not having peoples tracking money, think about all resources saved by not having borders between countries in military affairs.

NewtonTrino · 18th April 2011, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With no money system, crimes for profit will be nonsence and useless, think about all resources saved in closing prisons, think about all resources saved by not having peoples tracking money, think about all resources saved by not having borders between countries in military affairs.

Think about scratching around in the dirt trying to make a living because their is no economy.

dafydd · 18th April 2011, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With no money system, crimes for profit will be nonsence and useless, think about all resources saved in closing prisons, think about all resources saved by not having peoples tracking money, think about all resources saved by not having borders between countries in military affairs.

That would be fine if the entire population of the planet were selfless saints. There are many people whom I want to stay in prison for as long as possible. You were asked a question earlier on,and I will ask it again. Have you ever actually met another human being? I think that are trolling,you don't really believe this guff.

Gaetan · 18th April 2011, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by dafydd

That would be fine if the entire population of the planet were selfless saints. There are many people whom I want to stay in prison for as long as possible. You were asked a question earlier on,and I will ask it again. Have you ever actually met another human being? I think that are trolling,you don't really believe this guff.

Trolls are peoples with no arguments writing thousands of posts and losing time of others.

Another good point with no money system is that the reason why some countries are poor is that they have no money to buy resources necessary to build their infrastructures, they have men power and all we have to do is to give them resources free and machineries to build roads, cities.

Beelzebuddy · 18th April 2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

all we have to do is to give them resources free and machineries to build roads, cities.

You can do that even with a monetary system. That is what "free" implies.

AdMan · 18th April 2011, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Trolls are peoples with no arguments writing thousands of posts and losing time of others.

Another good point with no money system is that the reason why some countries are poor is that they have no money to buy resources necessary to build their infrastructures, they have men power and all we have to do is to give them resources free and machineries to build roads, cities.

Gaetan, you loon, is it time to give our money away yet?? It's taking much too long for you to decide that the time is right!! You need to decide NOW!

NO MONEY!! Yeah!!

Gaetan · 18th April 2011, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

You can do that even with a monetary system. That is what "free" implies.

You can but you won't do it because it cost money and countries rathers selling to pay their deficit instead of doing this.

Gaetan · 18th April 2011, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Gaetan, you loon, is it time to give our money away yet?? It's taking much too long for you to decide that the time is right!! You need to decide NOW!

NO MONEY!! Yeah!!

With money people are under the possession of evil and we got to get rid of it to get free.

AdMan · 18th April 2011, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With money people are under the possession of evil and we got to get rid of it to get free.

Why are you telling me for? NO EVIL MONEY!!!

Beelzebuddy · 18th April 2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With money people are under the possession of evil and we got to get rid of it to get free.

Ah, I see. "Money is the root of all evil," and all that, eh wot?

Well, no. The actual quote is "the love of money is the root of all evil." The love, not the money. Getting rid of money won't magically all make us better people, it won't catapult us into the post-scarcity society you seem to be imagining. If prisons and Soviet Russia is any indication, all that'll happen is people will start using other things as money.

Incidentally, there's a better, secular version of the same sentiment: "I've got mine, so the hell with you." Communicates the attitude directly, rather than referring to it. Easier to understand.

Sledge · 18th April 2011, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Half the people who work for me are unfit to work. What are we going to do with them? Since I'm a Wise Man, do I get to decide their fate?

As someone unfit to work, it would be best I am a Wise Man so the rest of you can get on with producing my our food, shelter, electricity, video games, etc. Welcome to Sledgetopia, people.

RoboTimbo · 22nd April 2011, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

With money people are under the possession of evil and we got to get rid of it to get free.

Evidence? Other than you just saying it, I mean.

Gaetan · 22nd April 2011, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo

Evidence? Other than you just saying it, I mean.

Just and equitable come from devil

With the devil you have to be just and equitable. With God, there is no equity, you have to forgive and cancel the debt of others. Charity and voluntary work come from God, with God there is no remunaration for a service.The work remunarated comes from devil. You commit a fault against the devil and it is never forgiven. A fault committed against God is immediatly forgiven. With the devil it is every one for himself, with God you should share with others. With god you have to be just and equitable for others but you don't ask for justice and equity for yourself. Money is used to establish the equity so it is the monopoly of devil.

RoboTimbo · 22nd April 2011, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Gaetan

Just and equitable come from devil

With the devil you have to be just and equitable. With God, there is no equity, you have to forgive and cancel the debt of others. Charity and voluntary work come from God, with God there is no remunaration for a service.The work remunarated comes from devil. You commit a fault against the devil and it is never forgiven. A fault committed against God is immediatly forgiven. With the devil it is every one for himself, with God you should share with others. With god you have to be just and equitable for others but you don't ask for justice and equity for yourself. Money is used to establish the equity so it is the monopoly of devil.

I don't think that you're translating the word "evidence" correctly.

25th March 2011, 04:29 PM	#201
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,462	Originally Posted by Oualawouzou (Je continue en anglais, histoire de ne pas exclure la majorité de la communauté de la discussion, mais je suis prêt à retourner au français au besoin.) Money is one tool some use to assert dominance over a group, but money isn't necessary to dominance. Dominance has advantages for the one on top, even with money out of the picture: liberty, personal glory (never underestimate the human ego!), choice of sexual mates... Take money out of the picture, and the urge to dominate will still be there. There will be people that will prevent you from getting food unless you run off and bring them back a beer. There will be people that will prevent you from getting a beer until you cut some wood and bring it back to light their fire. Then, when you do bring back the beer to the first thug, he will let you take only half of the food you want until you bring him back a second beer. And while you're gone, he'll be having fun with your now-ex-girlfriend because she'd rather be with the guy who can supply her with food rather than with the guy who is being bullied around. That's human nature. No system that relies first and foremost on humans being good to each other without incentive has ever worked when applied to anything bigger than a very small community from which troublesome individuals can be expelled. This is exactly right. Getting rid of "money" would no more cure social inequality than getting rid of firearms would cure violence.
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

25th March 2011, 10:30 PM	#202
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,182	Originally Posted by Gaetan Tu as bien compris le principe de la survie du singe, l'humain qui a choisi de vivre en collectivité plutôt que de vivre seul. L'entraide a permis au singe de survivre et sa nature est de partager. Gaetan! NO MONEY! I think we should do like the monkeys/nous devrions faire comme les singes and give up the money right away. What do you think we should wait for? If we don't give up the money now, who will get it going? Don't you think we need to set an example? Give everyone our money is what we should do, like the monkeys. Do you agree? NO MONEY!
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,182	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

25th March 2011, 10:31 PM	#203
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,520	Originally Posted by Gaetan Remember when you are in Rome you got to live like the roman ,what you do is to open their eyes and change the world. Unless your, say, Hannibal... or maybe the Vandals or Visigoths or Huns. Then, you just kill as many Romans as you can and take all their no-money-free-stuff. And their land. Oh, and the women .... can't forget the women.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

26th March 2011, 04:29 AM	#204
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,673	Originally Posted by Piscivore This is exactly right. Getting rid of "money" would no more cure social inequality than getting rid of firearms would cure violence. But it would ure firearm violence. Until someone with access to a machine workshop spends a couple of minutes making a hand cannon, that is.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips

26th March 2011, 06:20 AM	#205
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 20,520	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Unless your, say, Hannibal... or maybe the Vandals or Visigoths or Huns. Then, you just kill as many Romans as you can and take all their no-money-free-stuff. And their land. Oh, and the women .... can't forget the women. Your /= you're. Maroon!
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele Don't you wish someone had slapped baby Hitler really really hard? [i] Dr. Buzzo 02/13 [i]

26th March 2011, 08:26 AM	#206
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by Oualawouzou (Je continue en anglais, histoire de ne pas exclure la majorité de la communauté de la discussion, mais je suis prêt à retourner au français au besoin.) Wait, I speak this language! "J'aime la langue francaise" = "I love the tall French girl", right?

27th March 2011, 10:13 AM	#207
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

27th March 2011, 10:33 AM	#208
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 21,869	Originally Posted by Gaetan Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week. Evidence? Other than you just saying it, I mean.

27th March 2011, 10:50 AM	#209
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,462	Originally Posted by Gaetan Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week. No. Money is simply the most efficient medium of exchange we have for trading work for goods. And if you have to work two days to afford a damn chocolate bar, you need to get off the internet and get a real job.
	__________________ Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Take his fish away and tell him he's lucky just to be alive, and he'll figure out how to catch another one for you to take tomorrow. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

27th March 2011, 12:55 PM	#210
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Gaetan Don't you find it ridiculous to have to pay for a bar of chocolat, think about all the men power lost in tracking money will be saved in not using money, peoples would just have to work 2 days a week. Well, if they don´t get paid for their chocolate, they aren´t going to make any chocolate. So in that sense they will work less, but I don´t think that´s a good thing.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

27th March 2011, 02:49 PM	#211
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,943	An informal poll of how work will be divided in this utopia reveals a few flaws. First off there are an awful lot of Spartan warriors. But half of the Spartan warriors want to just chop up Persians all day and the other half want to blow up aliens. We have a surprising number of "nymphomaniacs" but only one doctor. Well we had two doctors but the one that knew what he was doing got fed up by our large number of Ax Twirlers and quit and now spends his time debating with a squirrel on a stump (we keep trying to tell him it is really a lawn ornament but he doesn't care). The other doctor has doubtful competency as most of her "remedies" involve tossing salt in the air while screaming like a banshee. We also have no baker. We have a gal that used to be a baker but she now paints knock offs of Monet with kitchen condiments. They're actually pretty interesting but she demands forty barrels of lard for them and we have no lard in such quantities. Probably would help if we had someone that knew how to make more lard.....or barrels for that matter. Now we need bread and since we don't want to disturb the condiment painter we grabbed the guy that used to teach at the school and forced him at gun point to make bread. This worked until he allied himself with the Spartans at which point we were put to work making wooden rocking chairs. Then the Spartans with guns allied with us after we which we slaughtered our former masters. There was much bloodshed but still no bread......or lard. With the weaklings now exterminated we engaged to try and procure some of the stuff we no longer had. Turned out a guy in the next town over had loads of lard but wanted only bread for it. A guy in the town over from that had loads of bread but only wanted blue jeans for it. Nobody really had any blue jeans. At some point a bright spark thought that maybe we could quantify the value of labor on some sort of exchange medium that could then be used to "barter" with the other towns. We tried stamped cats at first but they ran away. Then we tried chiseled staffs but they proved too unwieldy. Eventually we settled on printed cloth because it was small and mass producible. We got a guy to make a machine to print them by promising him some of them to keep. He then used them to buy those condiment paintings to impress his girlfriend.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy Last edited by Travis; 27th March 2011 at 02:51 PM.

15th April 2011, 12:26 PM	#212
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Another good point with the no money system is that when people do volontary work for others instead of working for themself there is a rise of spirituality of peoples on this planet.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

15th April 2011, 12:27 PM	#213
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 21,869	This is some new use for the word "good" with which I was previously unfamiliar.

16th April 2011, 08:12 PM	#214
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Piscivore That is English, just a bit over your head maybe, I'm sorry. A society without money is soon ruled by bullies. Here's why: <SNIP> Isn't this the point where the villagers decide something must be done, so they consult the old man? The old man tells them to go to the border and buy guns, only the villagers don't have any money, so the old man gives them his valuables. At the border town, the villagers meet a gunslinger who points out they'd be better off hiring gunmen, and it all ends up with a shoot out and noble deaths for four of our heroes. Gaetan: I am at present medically unfit for work. What happens to me in your society?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

17th April 2011, 10:18 AM	#215
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Originally Posted by Sledge Isn't this the point where the villagers decide something must be done, so they consult the old man? The old man tells them to go to the border and buy guns, only the villagers don't have any money, so the old man gives them his valuables. At the border town, the villagers meet a gunslinger who points out they'd be better off hiring gunmen, and it all ends up with a shoot out and noble deaths for four of our heroes. Gaetan: I am at present medically unfit for work. What happens to me in your society? If you are unfit to work you just don't have to work. With no money system this include no borders anymore so that natural resources be available for earth citizen profit and not only to few companies.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

17th April 2011, 11:33 AM	#216
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	If anyone here does not want their money I will pm them my account number.

17th April 2011, 11:38 AM	#217
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri I foresee a great deal of fist fights breaking out in your utopia, Gaetan. The Utopian police would have their hands full.

17th April 2011, 11:47 AM	#218
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo My favorite job is counterfeiting. How much work am I going to have? I'm a musician Gaetan. Our van is full of us and equipment. We have no room for goats,pigs,sheep,chickens,crates of eggs or sacks full of vegetables. Furthermore,I am a busy man and I do not have the time to barter said produce. Money is the ideal solution,there is nothing better.

17th April 2011, 01:46 PM	#219
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 21,869	Originally Posted by Gaetan If you are unfit to work you just don't have to work. With no money system this include no borders anymore so that natural resources be available for earth citizen profit and not only to few companies. Half the people who work for me are unfit to work. What are we going to do with them? Since I'm a Wise Man, do I get to decide their fate?

17th April 2011, 02:50 PM	#220
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo Half the people who work for me are unfit to work. What are we going to do with them? Since I'm a Wise Man, do I get to decide their fate? Wait a minute buddy,who said you could be a wise man? I'll fight you for the post. This Utopia ain't big enough for the both of us! Something has just struck me. I wonder if the Utopian police would be paid in donuts?
	Last edited by dafydd; 17th April 2011 at 02:51 PM.

17th April 2011, 03:12 PM	#221
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 21,869	Originally Posted by dafydd Wait a minute buddy,who said you could be a wise man? I'll fight you for the post. This Utopia ain't big enough for the both of us! Something has just struck me. I wonder if the Utopian police would be paid in donuts? I've got dibs on Oceania. You get your choice of Eurasia or Eastasia.

17th April 2011, 03:15 PM	#222
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by RoboTimbo I've got dibs on Oceania. You get your choice of Eurasia or Eastasia. So I can have Bangkok? It's a deal.

17th April 2011, 03:17 PM	#223
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	What would the Freemen On The Land do in this Utopia? What if they refused to contract into the barter system? They would all become robber barons.

17th April 2011, 07:21 PM	#224
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 3,636	Gaetan, in your barter society utopia, who strings and maintains the wires that bring the internet to your home? Who makes the fibre-optic cable on which the internet backbone is carried? Who invents and builds the lasers that are needed to light the fibre? Who builds the expensive and ultra-clean facilities that manufacture the chips that go into the routers that move the packets around the internet? Who builds and maintains the electrical grid that powers the internet? Any society more advanced than hunter-gatherers has evolved some form of currency. And I wouldn't be surprised if certain hunter-gatherer societies had a medium of exchange, especially if they started trading with neighbours.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

18th April 2011, 12:20 AM	#225
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	It is too bad that such a system is unworkable. Not working while morons give me everything that I want would be awesome.

18th April 2011, 01:46 AM	#226
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by dtugg It is too bad that such a system is unworkable. Not working while morons give me everything that I want would be awesome. You would be a monarch.

18th April 2011, 01:34 PM	#227
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Originally Posted by dafydd Wait a minute buddy,who said you could be a wise man? I'll fight you for the post. This Utopia ain't big enough for the both of us! Something has just struck me. I wonder if the Utopian police would be paid in donuts? With no money system, crimes for profit will be nonsence and useless, think about all resources saved in closing prisons, think about all resources saved by not having peoples tracking money, think about all resources saved by not having borders between countries in military affairs.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

18th April 2011, 03:53 PM	#228
NewtonTrino Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bothell, WA Posts: 3,782	Originally Posted by Gaetan With no money system, crimes for profit will be nonsence and useless, think about all resources saved in closing prisons, think about all resources saved by not having peoples tracking money, think about all resources saved by not having borders between countries in military affairs. Think about scratching around in the dirt trying to make a living because their is no economy.

18th April 2011, 04:17 PM	#229
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,478	Originally Posted by Gaetan With no money system, crimes for profit will be nonsence and useless, think about all resources saved in closing prisons, think about all resources saved by not having peoples tracking money, think about all resources saved by not having borders between countries in military affairs. That would be fine if the entire population of the planet were selfless saints. There are many people whom I want to stay in prison for as long as possible. You were asked a question earlier on,and I will ask it again. Have you ever actually met another human being? I think that are trolling,you don't really believe this guff.

18th April 2011, 05:21 PM	#230
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Originally Posted by dafydd That would be fine if the entire population of the planet were selfless saints. There are many people whom I want to stay in prison for as long as possible. You were asked a question earlier on,and I will ask it again. Have you ever actually met another human being? I think that are trolling,you don't really believe this guff. Trolls are peoples with no arguments writing thousands of posts and losing time of others. Another good point with no money system is that the reason why some countries are poor is that they have no money to buy resources necessary to build their infrastructures, they have men power and all we have to do is to give them resources free and machineries to build roads, cities.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

18th April 2011, 06:16 PM	#231
Beelzebuddy Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,717	Quote: all we have to do is to give them resources free and machineries to build roads, cities. You can do that even with a monetary system. That is what "free" implies.

18th April 2011, 07:05 PM	#232
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,182	Originally Posted by Gaetan Trolls are peoples with no arguments writing thousands of posts and losing time of others. Another good point with no money system is that the reason why some countries are poor is that they have no money to buy resources necessary to build their infrastructures, they have men power and all we have to do is to give them resources free and machineries to build roads, cities. Gaetan, you loon, is it time to give our money away yet?? It's taking much too long for you to decide that the time is right!! You need to decide NOW! NO MONEY!! Yeah!!
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,182	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

18th April 2011, 07:23 PM	#233
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy You can do that even with a monetary system. That is what "free" implies. You can but you won't do it because it cost money and countries rathers selling to pay their deficit instead of doing this.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

18th April 2011, 07:27 PM	#234
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340	Originally Posted by AdMan Gaetan, you loon, is it time to give our money away yet?? It's taking much too long for you to decide that the time is right!! You need to decide NOW! NO MONEY!! Yeah!! With money people are under the possession of evil and we got to get rid of it to get free.
Gaetan Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,340

18th April 2011, 07:31 PM	#235
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,182	Originally Posted by Gaetan With money people are under the possession of evil and we got to get rid of it to get free. Why are you telling me for? NO EVIL MONEY!!!
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,182	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan