Did Religion Kill These Kids?

Red3 · 28th April 2011, 02:08 AM

O.K, so the title might have been a bit over the top...

This link is to an article i found this morning about a mother who violently killed her three children to stop them being abused by their father (which didn't actually happen), as she thought they would be "better of in heaven". Now I'm sure there is some degree of mental instability here as "normal" parents don't slaughter their children, but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive?

To me it just seems like another example of why having the ridiculous "security blanket" belief in an afterlife is detrimental to us as individuals and as a species in general.

DC · 28th April 2011, 03:14 AM

that what this irrational and unsupported believe in an afterlife can do to people.
sad, sad.

Rasmus · 28th April 2011, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive?

Quite possibly.

If you believe in an eternal afterlife it simply follows that dying is not much of a bad thing and it might be preferred to being alive in many circumstances.

*given* the believe in the afterlife, the decision to simply kill the children and thus make it all better was entirely rational. Granted, the mother may have caused damnation and eternal hellfire for herself - but what loving mother wouldn't do that to save her own children?

Dancing David · 28th April 2011, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

O.K, so the title might have been a bit over the top...

This link is to an article i found this morning about a mother who violently killed her three children to stop them being abused by their father (which didn't actually happen), as she thought they would be "better of in heaven". Now I'm sure there is some degree of mental instability here as "normal" parents don't slaughter their children, but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive?

To me it just seems like another example of why having the ridiculous "security blanket" belief in an afterlife is detrimental to us as individuals and as a species in general.

Psychotic people do stuff regardless of their religion.

Sounds to me like you have taken psychosis and blamed it on religion.

(This is no way excuse the behavior of religious people. But some psychotic people believe strange stuff and kill people for a wide variety of reasons.)

Dancing David · 28th April 2011, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Quite possibly.

That is a big assumption. How do you know that religion played a lerger role than psychosis. If someone kills another person because they believe they are a space alien controlled by Darth Vader who is going to kill them, should I blame George Lucas?

Psychosis often reflects the culture of the individual.

Last of the Fraggles · 28th April 2011, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

O.K, so the title might have been a bit over the top...

This link is to an article i found this morning about a mother who violently killed her three children to stop them being abused by their father (which didn't actually happen), as she thought they would be "better of in heaven". Now I'm sure there is some degree of mental instability here as "normal" parents don't slaughter their children, but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive?

To me it just seems like another example of why having the ridiculous "security blanket" belief in an afterlife is detrimental to us as individuals and as a species in general.

Probably not. If she didn't believe in the afterlife she may still have thought them 'better off dead'.

Religion certainly doesn't help in these situations though.

Rasmus · 28th April 2011, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

That is a big assumption. How do you know that religion played a lerger role than psychosis.

The article doesn't seem to mentio9n a psychosis, does it?

Quote:

If someone kills another person because they believe they are a space alien controlled by Darth Vader who is going to kill them, should I blame George Lucas?

But that is a different thing altogether.

First of all, nobody goes around and tries to convince people that Star Wars is real. George Lucas is selling it as fiction.

Then, the story of Star Wars does not really hint at the possibility that your scenario could ever play out the way you described, does it? (Wrong Galaxy, for starters ...)

Quote:

Psychosis often reflects the culture of the individual.

My point is that a psychosis is not required to come to the conclusion that killing people is a good thing. Christian doctrine is enough for that.
In this case, there is a lot that seems to be wrong with the woman's alleged reasoning, but it doesn't change the fact that death is reduced to a mere inconvenience if one actually believes in the afterlife.

And yet, whenever anyone anywhere acts as if they really did believe in an afterlife, it suddenly has nothing to do with the belief of the person.

Kev The Green · 28th April 2011, 04:17 AM

I'm in a heated argument with my boss. There's a letter opener on his desk. I grab it and stab him to death. Would I still have killed him if the letter opener hadn't been there?

The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. Would that something have allowed her to justify killing her kids? It's impossible to say.

welshdean · 28th April 2011, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kev The Green

I'm in a heated argument with my boss. There's a letter opener on his desk. I grab it and stab him to death. Would I still have killed him if the letter opener hadn't been there?

The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. Would that something have allowed her to justify killing her kids? It's impossible to say.

Poor analogy. If the letter opener was a recipient of your prayers for years and had given you 'divine revelation', promising everlasting joy and salvation, then we come all the way back to religion and it's ridiculous promises and assertions. Would she have done it if she believed that there would be no afterlife and her kids would be 'dead', just plain old dead and no afterlife, therefore not 'better off'?

Yes, reliigous dogma and indoctrination is partly to blame.

jadey · 28th April 2011, 05:35 AM

It really depends on whether you believe the mother's story. Personally, I wouldn't put much trust in her testimony, especially since she tried to cover it up with burning the bodies? (There was some mention of an explosion, but the link to the story no longer works so I can't verify). She's clearly trying to portray her actions as a selfless act rather than a selfish one and attempting to use "Better off in heaven" as a justification. Given that she was in a bitter divorce and given that there was no apparent evidence for the father abusing the children, I wouldn't be surprised if her act was a more selfish "if I can't have them, nobody can". "Better off in Heaven" obviously isn't a justification, though there are probably some religious people who might empathize with that excuse. Nobody is likely to empathize with the latter excuse.

So, who knows her real motivation.

ETA: The link is working again. It was a gas explosion.

Red3 · 28th April 2011, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

First of all, nobody goes around and tries to convince people that Star Wars is real. George Lucas is selling it as fiction.

Exactly. If the woman killed the children because she thought that sending them to a completely fictional (as most would see it) place after death was in their best interests, that would be insane and she might well know it even if she was disturbed/under pressure to whatever degree. But being religious and killing them in order to send them to a place that is widely believed to be real, is not such a stretch of the imagination. Also, if she believed in Narnia or some such thing, the alarm bells would go off with friends and relatives, while being a devout/fundamental christian, they may well not.

Bikewer · 28th April 2011, 06:20 AM

Mentally-ill people often have delusions revolving around religion. Religion being strong influence in their lives at some point, one would presume.
We had a case here which we studied at some length during C.I.T. training. The fellow (a paranoid schizophrenic) thought that his parents were in fact aliens masquerading as his parents. He stabbed both of them to death....
Hard to indicate "science fiction" as causative....

Red3 · 28th April 2011, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Mentally-ill people often have delusions revolving around religion.

True, but who's to say she was mentally ill? She pleaded guilty to culpable homicide due to diminished responsibilty - that doesn't sound like she was/is mentally ill. She also tried to blow up the scene of the crime.

Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC)

Rasmus · 28th April 2011, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC)

That came from her attorneys ...

welshdean · 28th April 2011, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC)

Yep, one of them happens to be a belief in a bearded, white haired guy that sits on his arse in the clouds, smoteing all day. Makes me sick!

Red3 · 28th April 2011, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

That came from her attorneys ...

Ah, so it did. That'll teach me to scan read.

Rasmus · 28th April 2011, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Hard to indicate "science fiction" as causative....

Again, nobody runs around claiming Sci-Fi was real. do they? If we find someone who claims aliens are talking with them and giving them instructions, that is at least reason to be concerned.

If you substitute religion for sci-fi we suddenly have huge, powerful organizations devoted to promoting the view that it is all real and we give those believing them a pass instead of locking them away.

"Religion" is more than just the stories.

Rasmus · 28th April 2011, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

Ah, so it did. That'll teach me to scan read.

Nah, it's quite unclear still from the article.

The court apparently found that she has only "reduced responsibility" for her actions. It isn't made clear if that is due to her alleged disorders or just the stress she's generally been under due to the break up of her family.

Personally, from what I've read so far, she's making that stuff up. She practiically announced the death of the children to their father - why would she do that if she oly wanted to safe them rather than hurt him?

I Am The Scum · 28th April 2011, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Kev The Green

The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions.

There would be a different basis for her actions, yes. But would it guide her towards the same conclusion? I don't think I've seen a single discussion on such a matter go by in which a large number of people blatantly switch the cause-and-effect process of rational thought.

And I made no mistake in describing this woman's decision as rational. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that she actually believes these things (and she's not just making up stories to sound innocent). If she believes that her children are being abused, and that their death will lead to a much more pleasant existence, and she also has a desire for them to be as happy as possible, doesn't it make sense to execute them? I acknowledge that many here (myself included) find the belief in an afterlife to be unfounded, but that's not my point.

So to bring this back to the topic at hand, we have to question what would have happened if the belief in a positive afterlife didn't exist. I really can't say, but it's asinine to declare the woman's decision as a foregone conclusion. This is not the way the human mind works. One does not begin with an action and then formulate a basis for it. That's backwards. Every single decision you make is a product of your knowledge and beliefs.

In the absence of religious belief, would people still behave the same way? Obviously, some things would be different. I see no reason to dismiss the possibility that some of the extreme cases would be different as well.

shandyjan · 28th April 2011, 03:16 PM

The problem with psychosis is something becomes all engulfing that may have hardly been an issue beforehand. The psychosis can cause the religious mania. So the religion would have to be there in the first place, but there's no saying that without the religion a different focus may have taken over.

Dancing David · 29th April 2011, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

The article doesn't seem to mentio9n a psychosis, does it?

Her sentence was effected due to 'diminished capacity' , I would assume that means she was psychotic or developmentaly disabled.

Dancing David · 29th April 2011, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

Mentally-ill people often have delusions revolving around religion. Religion being strong influence in their lives at some point, one would presume.
We had a case here which we studied at some length during C.I.T. training. The fellow (a paranoid schizophrenic) thought that his parents were in fact aliens masquerading as his parents. He stabbed both of them to death....
Hard to indicate "science fiction" as causative....

A person I know (not through work) did something very similar.

Dancing David · 29th April 2011, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Red3

True, but who's to say she was mentally ill? She pleaded guilty to culpable homicide due to diminished responsibilty - that doesn't sound like she was/is mentally ill. She also tried to blow up the scene of the crime.

Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC)

Diminished capacity usually refers to a mental disorder, also very rarely is an individual with personality disorders not mentally ill. She may have had a stroke or other TBI as well.

I don't know British law well enough to read bewtween the lines.

Dancing David · 29th April 2011, 04:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Again, nobody runs around claiming Sci-Fi was real. do they? If we find someone who claims aliens are talking with them and giving them instructions, that is at least reason to be concerned.

If you substitute religion for sci-fi we suddenly have huge, powerful organizations devoted to promoting the view that it is all real and we give those believing them a pass instead of locking them away.

"Religion" is more than just the stories.

Um, unfortunately there are plenty of people who take aliens as seriously as religion.

Rasmus · 29th April 2011, 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Um, unfortunately there are plenty of people who take aliens as seriously as religion.

Aliens from Star Wars, too?

And either way, would you violently object if it was suggested that these people are at least bordering on the insane?

And would you blame the authors of sci-fi stories or those that encouraged people to believe it all as fact?

Kev The Green · 29th April 2011, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

There would be a different basis for her actions, yes. But would it guide her towards the same conclusion? I don't think I've seen a single discussion on such a matter go by in which a large number of people blatantly switch the cause-and-effect process of rational thought.

And I made no mistake in describing this woman's decision as rational. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that she actually believes these things (and she's not just making up stories to sound innocent). If she believes that her children are being abused, and that their death will lead to a much more pleasant existence, and she also has a desire for them to be as happy as possible, doesn't it make sense to execute them? I acknowledge that many here (myself included) find the belief in an afterlife to be unfounded, but that's not my point.

So to bring this back to the topic at hand, we have to question what would have happened if the belief in a positive afterlife didn't exist. I really can't say, but it's asinine to declare the woman's decision as a foregone conclusion. This is not the way the human mind works. One does not begin with an action and then formulate a basis for it. That's backwards. Every single decision you make is a product of your knowledge and beliefs.

In the absence of religious belief, would people still behave the same way? Obviously, some things would be different. I see no reason to dismiss the possibility that some of the extreme cases would be different as well.

This was the full quote:

Originally Posted by Kev The Green

The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. Would that something have allowed her to justify killing her kids? It's impossible to say.

Please don't edit my posts to make it look like I said something I didn't.

I never said that religion couldn't be at fault. I'm saying we shouldn't assume it is simply because it fits our preconceived notions of how religious people must think. We don't know why she killed her kids. Saying that they're in a better place is exactly what a religious person would say afterwards regardless of the reason for their murder.

There's no real reason to believe that people who believe in an afterlife are more willing to kill than those of us who don't. After all, it's the Christians who always wonder what stops Atheists from killing people.

I Am The Scum · 29th April 2011, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Kev The Green

This was the full quote:

Please don't edit my posts to make it look like I said something I didn't.

I never said that religion couldn't be at fault. I'm saying we shouldn't assume it is simply because it fits our preconceived notions of how religious people must think. We don't know why she killed her kids. Saying that they're in a better place is exactly what a religious person would say afterwards regardless of the reason for their murder.

There's no real reason to believe that people who believe in an afterlife are more willing to kill than those of us who don't. After all, it's the Christians who always wonder what stops Atheists from killing people.

You're right. I apologize for misrepresenting your position. I don't remember if it was because of skim-reading, or because the section I quoted (removed from context) was a succinct description of the idea I was criticizing.

In any case, I'll be more careful in the future.

Dancing David · 29th April 2011, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

Aliens from Star Wars, too?

And either way, would you violently object if it was suggested that these people are at least bordering on the insane?

And would you blame the authors of sci-fi stories or those that encouraged people to believe it all as fact?

My point is merely that until we know the actual mental staus of the mother, we can not really say what led her to take those actions.

sadhatter · 29th April 2011, 12:27 PM

I always have a slightly different take on this.

If religion was not actively promoted by a huge portion of the population, than anyone saying that a magic creature is talking to them, in a way only they can hear, would immediately be recognized as insane. And treated as such. Insanity would be a lot easier to spot.

In all honesty, " insane" people take the most logical position in regard to religion most of the time. I mean if i believed in an all powerful god that has in the past given instructions to people, and i suddenly hear a voice telling me to kill my children ( yes i know not what happened here, but a valid example none the less.) the penalty for not doing what it says if it is real, is eternal damnation. The penalty if it is wrong ( jail time) pales in comparison to the alternative.

Kev The Green · 29th April 2011, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

You're right. I apologize for misrepresenting your position.

No, problem, it happens. I assumed it was probably an honest mistake.

28th April 2011, 02:08 AM	#1
Red3 Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South Yorkshire U.K Posts: 748	Did Religion Kill These Kids? O.K, so the title might have been a bit over the top... This link is to an article i found this morning about a mother who violently killed her three children to stop them being abused by their father (which didn't actually happen), as she thought they would be "better of in heaven". Now I'm sure there is some degree of mental instability here as "normal" parents don't slaughter their children, but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive? To me it just seems like another example of why having the ridiculous "security blanket" belief in an afterlife is detrimental to us as individuals and as a species in general.
	__________________ "I want to be cremated, and I want my ashes blown in Uri Geller's eyes." - James Randi. IT'S A TRAP! Last edited by Red3; 28th April 2011 at 02:19 AM.

28th April 2011, 03:14 AM	#2
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,651	that what this irrational and unsupported believe in an afterlife can do to people. sad, sad.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

28th April 2011, 03:22 AM	#3
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Red3 but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive? Quite possibly. If you believe in an eternal afterlife it simply follows that dying is not much of a bad thing and it might be preferred to being alive in many circumstances. given the believe in the afterlife, the decision to simply kill the children and thus make it all better was entirely rational. Granted, the mother may have caused damnation and eternal hellfire for herself - but what loving mother wouldn't do that to save her own children?
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th April 2011, 03:29 AM	#4
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Red3 O.K, so the title might have been a bit over the top... This link is to an article i found this morning about a mother who violently killed her three children to stop them being abused by their father (which didn't actually happen), as she thought they would be "better of in heaven". Now I'm sure there is some degree of mental instability here as "normal" parents don't slaughter their children, but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive? To me it just seems like another example of why having the ridiculous "security blanket" belief in an afterlife is detrimental to us as individuals and as a species in general. Psychotic people do stuff regardless of their religion. Sounds to me like you have taken psychosis and blamed it on religion. (This is no way excuse the behavior of religious people. But some psychotic people believe strange stuff and kill people for a wide variety of reasons.)
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

28th April 2011, 03:32 AM	#5
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Rasmus Quite possibly. That is a big assumption. How do you know that religion played a lerger role than psychosis. If someone kills another person because they believe they are a space alien controlled by Darth Vader who is going to kill them, should I blame George Lucas? Psychosis often reflects the culture of the individual.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

28th April 2011, 03:44 AM	#6
Last of the Fraggles Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,355	Originally Posted by Red3 O.K, so the title might have been a bit over the top... This link is to an article i found this morning about a mother who violently killed her three children to stop them being abused by their father (which didn't actually happen), as she thought they would be "better of in heaven". Now I'm sure there is some degree of mental instability here as "normal" parents don't slaughter their children, but without the influence of religion would these kids still be alive? To me it just seems like another example of why having the ridiculous "security blanket" belief in an afterlife is detrimental to us as individuals and as a species in general. Probably not. If she didn't believe in the afterlife she may still have thought them 'better off dead'. Religion certainly doesn't help in these situations though.

28th April 2011, 04:17 AM	#7
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Dancing David That is a big assumption. How do you know that religion played a lerger role than psychosis. The article doesn't seem to mentio9n a psychosis, does it? Quote: If someone kills another person because they believe they are a space alien controlled by Darth Vader who is going to kill them, should I blame George Lucas? But that is a different thing altogether. First of all, nobody goes around and tries to convince people that Star Wars is real. George Lucas is selling it as fiction. Then, the story of Star Wars does not really hint at the possibility that your scenario could ever play out the way you described, does it? (Wrong Galaxy, for starters ...) Quote: Psychosis often reflects the culture of the individual. My point is that a psychosis is not required to come to the conclusion that killing people is a good thing. Christian doctrine is enough for that. In this case, there is a lot that seems to be wrong with the woman's alleged reasoning, but it doesn't change the fact that death is reduced to a mere inconvenience if one actually believes in the afterlife. And yet, whenever anyone anywhere acts as if they really did believe in an afterlife, it suddenly has nothing to do with the belief of the person.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th April 2011, 04:17 AM	#8
Kev The Green Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Springfield Posts: 281	I'm in a heated argument with my boss. There's a letter opener on his desk. I grab it and stab him to death. Would I still have killed him if the letter opener hadn't been there? The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. Would that something have allowed her to justify killing her kids? It's impossible to say.
	__________________ Kev "Even if you've eliminated all the rational explanations you can think of, the first irrational one you think of isn't necessarily true." "The universe doesn't care what you think."

28th April 2011, 04:30 AM	#9
welshdean 2012 6Nations Grand Slam -------CHAMPIONS------- Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye Posts: 1,398	Originally Posted by Kev The Green I'm in a heated argument with my boss. There's a letter opener on his desk. I grab it and stab him to death. Would I still have killed him if the letter opener hadn't been there? The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. Would that something have allowed her to justify killing her kids? It's impossible to say. Poor analogy. If the letter opener was a recipient of your prayers for years and had given you 'divine revelation', promising everlasting joy and salvation, then we come all the way back to religion and it's ridiculous promises and assertions. Would she have done it if she believed that there would be no afterlife and her kids would be 'dead', just plain old dead and no afterlife, therefore not 'better off'? Yes, reliigous dogma and indoctrination is partly to blame.
	__________________ Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author) Last edited by welshdean; 28th April 2011 at 04:32 AM. Reason: to clean it up a bit

28th April 2011, 05:35 AM	#10
jadey Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Merry Land Posts: 2,378	It really depends on whether you believe the mother's story. Personally, I wouldn't put much trust in her testimony, especially since she tried to cover it up with burning the bodies? (There was some mention of an explosion, but the link to the story no longer works so I can't verify). She's clearly trying to portray her actions as a selfless act rather than a selfish one and attempting to use "Better off in heaven" as a justification. Given that she was in a bitter divorce and given that there was no apparent evidence for the father abusing the children, I wouldn't be surprised if her act was a more selfish "if I can't have them, nobody can". "Better off in Heaven" obviously isn't a justification, though there are probably some religious people who might empathize with that excuse. Nobody is likely to empathize with the latter excuse. So, who knows her real motivation. ETA: The link is working again. It was a gas explosion.
	Last edited by jadey; 28th April 2011 at 05:37 AM.

28th April 2011, 06:18 AM	#11
Red3 Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South Yorkshire U.K Posts: 748	Originally Posted by Rasmus First of all, nobody goes around and tries to convince people that Star Wars is real. George Lucas is selling it as fiction. Exactly. If the woman killed the children because she thought that sending them to a completely fictional (as most would see it) place after death was in their best interests, that would be insane and she might well know it even if she was disturbed/under pressure to whatever degree. But being religious and killing them in order to send them to a place that is widely believed to be real, is not such a stretch of the imagination. Also, if she believed in Narnia or some such thing, the alarm bells would go off with friends and relatives, while being a devout/fundamental christian, they may well not.
	__________________ "I want to be cremated, and I want my ashes blown in Uri Geller's eyes." - James Randi. IT'S A TRAP!

28th April 2011, 06:20 AM	#12
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,525	Mentally-ill people often have delusions revolving around religion. Religion being strong influence in their lives at some point, one would presume. We had a case here which we studied at some length during C.I.T. training. The fellow (a paranoid schizophrenic) thought that his parents were in fact aliens masquerading as his parents. He stabbed both of them to death.... Hard to indicate "science fiction" as causative....

28th April 2011, 06:30 AM	#13
Red3 Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South Yorkshire U.K Posts: 748	Originally Posted by Bikewer Mentally-ill people often have delusions revolving around religion. True, but who's to say she was mentally ill? She pleaded guilty to culpable homicide due to diminished responsibilty - that doesn't sound like she was/is mentally ill. She also tried to blow up the scene of the crime. Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC)
	__________________ "I want to be cremated, and I want my ashes blown in Uri Geller's eyes." - James Randi. IT'S A TRAP! Last edited by Red3; 28th April 2011 at 06:45 AM.

28th April 2011, 06:52 AM	#14
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Red3 Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC) That came from her attorneys ...
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th April 2011, 06:53 AM	#15
welshdean 2012 6Nations Grand Slam -------CHAMPIONS------- Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Spitting in Andrew Wakefields eye Posts: 1,398	Originally Posted by Red3 Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC) Yep, one of them happens to be a belief in a bearded, white haired guy that sits on his arse in the clouds, smoteing all day. Makes me sick!
	__________________ Poe's Law!!! im christian if we came from apes how come were not hairy and have a big mouth and did we end up looking like we do know and besides there isnt any serious proof of apes they showd a video saying an ape was wondering around in the forest that thing looked exactly like a costume that i had saw at a store know one ever cought an ape (spelling/punctuation by original author)

28th April 2011, 06:54 AM	#16
Red3 Muse Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: South Yorkshire U.K Posts: 748	Originally Posted by Rasmus That came from her attorneys ... Ah, so it did. That'll teach me to scan read.
	__________________ "I want to be cremated, and I want my ashes blown in Uri Geller's eyes." - James Randi. IT'S A TRAP! Last edited by Red3; 28th April 2011 at 06:55 AM.

28th April 2011, 06:56 AM	#17
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Bikewer Hard to indicate "science fiction" as causative.... Again, nobody runs around claiming Sci-Fi was real. do they? If we find someone who claims aliens are talking with them and giving them instructions, that is at least reason to be concerned. If you substitute religion for sci-fi we suddenly have huge, powerful organizations devoted to promoting the view that it is all real and we give those believing them a pass instead of locking them away. "Religion" is more than just the stories.
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th April 2011, 06:59 AM	#18
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Red3 Ah, so it did. That'll teach me to scan read. Nah, it's quite unclear still from the article. The court apparently found that she has only "reduced responsibility" for her actions. It isn't made clear if that is due to her alleged disorders or just the stress she's generally been under due to the break up of her family. Personally, from what I've read so far, she's making that stuff up. She practiically announced the death of the children to their father - why would she do that if she oly wanted to safe them rather than hurt him?
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

28th April 2011, 10:05 AM	#19
I Am The Scum Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,549	Originally Posted by Kev The Green The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. There would be a different basis for her actions, yes. But would it guide her towards the same conclusion? I don't think I've seen a single discussion on such a matter go by in which a large number of people blatantly switch the cause-and-effect process of rational thought. And I made no mistake in describing this woman's decision as rational. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that she actually believes these things (and she's not just making up stories to sound innocent). If she believes that her children are being abused, and that their death will lead to a much more pleasant existence, and she also has a desire for them to be as happy as possible, doesn't it make sense to execute them? I acknowledge that many here (myself included) find the belief in an afterlife to be unfounded, but that's not my point. So to bring this back to the topic at hand, we have to question what would have happened if the belief in a positive afterlife didn't exist. I really can't say, but it's asinine to declare the woman's decision as a foregone conclusion. This is not the way the human mind works. One does not begin with an action and then formulate a basis for it. That's backwards. Every single decision you make is a product of your knowledge and beliefs. In the absence of religious belief, would people still behave the same way? Obviously, some things would be different. I see no reason to dismiss the possibility that some of the extreme cases would be different as well.

28th April 2011, 03:16 PM	#20
shandyjan Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: N/W England Posts: 2,111	The problem with psychosis is something becomes all engulfing that may have hardly been an issue beforehand. The psychosis can cause the religious mania. So the religion would have to be there in the first place, but there's no saying that without the religion a different focus may have taken over.
	__________________ Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's A dog is for life, not just for xmas!

29th April 2011, 04:25 AM	#21
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Rasmus The article doesn't seem to mentio9n a psychosis, does it? Her sentence was effected due to 'diminished capacity' , I would assume that means she was psychotic or developmentaly disabled.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

29th April 2011, 04:27 AM	#22
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Bikewer Mentally-ill people often have delusions revolving around religion. Religion being strong influence in their lives at some point, one would presume. We had a case here which we studied at some length during C.I.T. training. The fellow (a paranoid schizophrenic) thought that his parents were in fact aliens masquerading as his parents. He stabbed both of them to death.... Hard to indicate "science fiction" as causative.... A person I know (not through work) did something very similar.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

29th April 2011, 04:29 AM	#23
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Red3 True, but who's to say she was mentally ill? She pleaded guilty to culpable homicide due to diminished responsibilty - that doesn't sound like she was/is mentally ill. She also tried to blow up the scene of the crime. Edit: Actually, I just read she is alleged to "have a number of personality disorders". (BBC) Diminished capacity usually refers to a mental disorder, also very rarely is an individual with personality disorders not mentally ill. She may have had a stroke or other TBI as well. I don't know British law well enough to read bewtween the lines.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

29th April 2011, 04:30 AM	#24
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Rasmus Again, nobody runs around claiming Sci-Fi was real. do they? If we find someone who claims aliens are talking with them and giving them instructions, that is at least reason to be concerned. If you substitute religion for sci-fi we suddenly have huge, powerful organizations devoted to promoting the view that it is all real and we give those believing them a pass instead of locking them away. "Religion" is more than just the stories. Um, unfortunately there are plenty of people who take aliens as seriously as religion.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

29th April 2011, 05:05 AM	#25
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	Originally Posted by Dancing David Um, unfortunately there are plenty of people who take aliens as seriously as religion. Aliens from Star Wars, too? And either way, would you violently object if it was suggested that these people are at least bordering on the insane? And would you blame the authors of sci-fi stories or those that encouraged people to believe it all as fact?
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,138	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

29th April 2011, 05:48 AM	#26
Kev The Green Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Springfield Posts: 281	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum There would be a different basis for her actions, yes. But would it guide her towards the same conclusion? I don't think I've seen a single discussion on such a matter go by in which a large number of people blatantly switch the cause-and-effect process of rational thought. And I made no mistake in describing this woman's decision as rational. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that she actually believes these things (and she's not just making up stories to sound innocent). If she believes that her children are being abused, and that their death will lead to a much more pleasant existence, and she also has a desire for them to be as happy as possible, doesn't it make sense to execute them? I acknowledge that many here (myself included) find the belief in an afterlife to be unfounded, but that's not my point. So to bring this back to the topic at hand, we have to question what would have happened if the belief in a positive afterlife didn't exist. I really can't say, but it's asinine to declare the woman's decision as a foregone conclusion. This is not the way the human mind works. One does not begin with an action and then formulate a basis for it. That's backwards. Every single decision you make is a product of your knowledge and beliefs. In the absence of religious belief, would people still behave the same way? Obviously, some things would be different. I see no reason to dismiss the possibility that some of the extreme cases would be different as well. This was the full quote: Originally Posted by Kev The Green The mother was religious. All her actions are going to be justified by religion. But, without religion, something else would guide her actions. Would that something have allowed her to justify killing her kids? It's impossible to say. Please don't edit my posts to make it look like I said something I didn't. I never said that religion couldn't be at fault. I'm saying we shouldn't assume it is simply because it fits our preconceived notions of how religious people must think. We don't know why she killed her kids. Saying that they're in a better place is exactly what a religious person would say afterwards regardless of the reason for their murder. There's no real reason to believe that people who believe in an afterlife are more willing to kill than those of us who don't. After all, it's the Christians who always wonder what stops Atheists from killing people.
	__________________ Kev "Even if you've eliminated all the rational explanations you can think of, the first irrational one you think of isn't necessarily true." "The universe doesn't care what you think."

29th April 2011, 11:58 AM	#27
I Am The Scum Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,549	Originally Posted by Kev The Green This was the full quote: Please don't edit my posts to make it look like I said something I didn't. I never said that religion couldn't be at fault. I'm saying we shouldn't assume it is simply because it fits our preconceived notions of how religious people must think. We don't know why she killed her kids. Saying that they're in a better place is exactly what a religious person would say afterwards regardless of the reason for their murder. There's no real reason to believe that people who believe in an afterlife are more willing to kill than those of us who don't. After all, it's the Christians who always wonder what stops Atheists from killing people. You're right. I apologize for misrepresenting your position. I don't remember if it was because of skim-reading, or because the section I quoted (removed from context) was a succinct description of the idea I was criticizing. In any case, I'll be more careful in the future.

29th April 2011, 12:17 PM	#28
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,707	Originally Posted by Rasmus Aliens from Star Wars, too? And either way, would you violently object if it was suggested that these people are at least bordering on the insane? And would you blame the authors of sci-fi stories or those that encouraged people to believe it all as fact? My point is merely that until we know the actual mental staus of the mother, we can not really say what led her to take those actions.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

29th April 2011, 12:27 PM	#29
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	I always have a slightly different take on this. If religion was not actively promoted by a huge portion of the population, than anyone saying that a magic creature is talking to them, in a way only they can hear, would immediately be recognized as insane. And treated as such. Insanity would be a lot easier to spot. In all honesty, " insane" people take the most logical position in regard to religion most of the time. I mean if i believed in an all powerful god that has in the past given instructions to people, and i suddenly hear a voice telling me to kill my children ( yes i know not what happened here, but a valid example none the less.) the penalty for not doing what it says if it is real, is eternal damnation. The penalty if it is wrong ( jail time) pales in comparison to the alternative.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

29th April 2011, 07:46 PM	#30
Kev The Green Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Springfield Posts: 281	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum You're right. I apologize for misrepresenting your position. No, problem, it happens. I assumed it was probably an honest mistake.
	__________________ Kev "Even if you've eliminated all the rational explanations you can think of, the first irrational one you think of isn't necessarily true." "The universe doesn't care what you think."