Bin Laden Dead Truthers Mourn

[tempesta29]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Let's see them. Also, explain why they are more credible than the reports that bin Laden was killed on Sunday.

They are more "credible" because they are wholly supported, endorsed, and written by the US government, which is the source that spoon feeds mainstream media.

If you think the US government is credible then you truly are a fool.

[Justin39640]

Originally Posted by tempesta29

They are more "credible" because they are wholly supported, endorsed, and written by the US government, which is the source that spoon feeds mainstream media.

If you think the US government is credible then you truly are a fool.

Yet, not one of OBL's associates are calling foul? Even with all its America bashing, Al Jazeera thinks it's real.

[The Platypus]

Originally Posted by tempesta29

They are more "credible" because they are wholly supported, endorsed, and written by the US government, which is the source that spoon feeds mainstream media.

If you think the US government is credible then you truly are a fool.

The gov't and media has their flaws no doubt, but I'd still say they are far more credible than some brainwashed CT cult member, that is ranting and reciting nonsense, which they got from within the cult in the form of mostly homemade websites and youtube videos with ironic names and slogans.

What's foolish is calling people "a fool" to try and manipulate them into your side. What kind of "fool" would even fall for such tricks?

It is far more foolish to trust people like you than the gov't or media... Why should I trust a word you or your cult says? Because you will call me names if i don't?

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by tempesta29

They are more "credible" because they are wholly supported, endorsed, and written by the US government, which is the source that spoon feeds mainstream media.

If you think the US government is credible then you truly are a fool.

...that doesn't make sense.

You believe bin Laden had kidney failure because the all-knowing government says so, and at the same time you think anyone who says the government is credible is a fool?

[Unsecured Coins]

Al Jazeera made this broadcast earlier today, and then retracted it

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Army of One]

Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins

Al Jazeera made this broadcast earlier today, and then retracted it

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Justin39640]

Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins

Al Jazeera made this broadcast earlier today, and then retracted it

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

haha
Is that supposed to be the Mid East's Alex Jones? I hope they get a bite with that one lol.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Unsecured Coins

Al Jazeera made this broadcast earlier today, and then retracted it

I have a feeling that an Arabic speaker would find that video less convincing.

Has there been any video of how Hitler reacted to the news yet?

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: Ok, why did I even bother to ask that question?

[Justin39640]

Originally Posted by Myriad

I have a feeling that an Arabic speaker would find that video less convincing.

Has there been any video of how Hitler reacted to the news yet?

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: Ok, why did I even bother to ask that question?

LMAO that was a good one. MJ's death is still my favorite Hitler reaction though. I can't watch the actual movie anymore without cracking up during that scene.

[Sam.I.Am]

Originally Posted by 000063

Do sailors tend to be more spiritual than other branches of the AF?

I can't honestly answer that seeing as I wasn't around the other services to make a comparison.

I can say that from a logical point of view that generally speaking navies are more exposed to the forces of nature so it stands to reason that they would have more of a sense of spirituality out on the water than some guy in a tent in a field (for example). Excluding combat situations a soldiers job is relatively safe while a sailor is always subject to the forces of nature, and the sea doesn't care who you are or what you're doing, it'll kill you dead if you do it wrong.

There has always been a sense of killing ships and not the men on them. For centuries the code of the sea has been no matter who it is or why they are there if someone is in distress at sea you go and help them no matter what (short of getting yourself killed in the process of course). You can settle the costs later on.

This caused a dilemma back in the early 20th century when submarines became viable platforms of war. They had no real means of rescuing the men after they sunk the ships from beneath them. Even calling for help by radio might reveal their position and place them at risk of getting killed. Many senior people in most navies were against even developing such a platform as "Sneaky and underhanded".

It's one of the reasons why Germany did so well in the North Atlantic at the start of both world wars. They had decided that developing and building submarines was fine by them while Britain's admiralty were stuck in the 19th century mind frame of ships duking it out with battleships and whatnot in a more classic surface naval battle.

There were even several treaties made after WWI that limited the size (in tons) and number of submarines a nation was allowed to have. Germany and Japan ignored those agreements which is why they started off so strong. You can't design and build a boat from scratch in a few months and even the US went almost a decade after WWI without building one new submarine. The only thing that saved them years worth of time was the fact that the engines designed for submarines (the items with the longest lead times) were also well suited for other applications so the naval shipyards maintained the tooling and skills needed to construct them.

If you're more interested in these subjects there is a good book on it called US Submarines through 1945 that goes into details on these and other relevant historical facts. Google books has some of it online here.

[Jackanory]

Originally Posted by alienentity

Why was he moved to a ship anyway? Anyone know?

For any number of reasons. Part of the secrecy of the mission. The ship could have been the Command & Control centre for mission. Securest place. Could have been the SEAL teams base. Could have been the helicopter/pilots base. Could have held the DNA lab. Medical facilities to treat the injured onboard helicopters (OBL's wife and daughter? SEALs?). Take your pick. It was probably anticipated that OBL would be dead and therefore would require the burial at sea within the 24hrs. A ship at sea would surely be the logical solution. Don't see what the hoo ha is all about. Deserved what he got. Good riddence and a huge pat on the back for the brave pilots and SEALs who did us all a great service.

[Jackanory]

Originally Posted by twinstead

A coastline within catapult range would be a good plan b though

And no net

[TruthMakesPeace]

Originally Posted by 000063

He was shooting back, and refused to surrender. Even cops will shoot to kill in those circumstances. That's not an assassination or a kill team.

According to the White House, Bin Laden was UNARMED.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/w...ta?_s=PM:WORLD

JSOC (Dept. of Offense) had Bin Laden surrounded. Why didn't they bring him in alive as the U.S. Marshals (Dept. of Justice) do? "Bringing him to justice" means just that, in a Court of Law. Not a mafia style hit squad. Bin Laden was never officially charged with 9/11 by the DoJ or FBI, only by the Press and Presidents. He was a suspect of other crimes, and should have been brought in alive to face charges, and serve a life sentence. In the 1980's the CIA funded BIn Laden against the Russians in Afghanistan. He walks with a cane. Anyone could catch him. White House confirms Bin Laden was UNARMED, so there was no excuse for killing him. What "threatening gestures" did unarmed Bin Laden make, flipping the bird? Why quickly hide the body to "sleep wid da fishes"? He could not be allowed to testify or plead not guilty to 9/11. Even Charles Manson got a trial. What example of American Justice does this give to the world?

[000063]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

According to the White House, Bin Laden was UNARMED.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-03/w...ta?_s=PM:WORLD

Congratulations. You debunked my post from two days ago when the facts were still coming out and several sources had claimed he was armed and fighting back, now proven to be false. Bra-vo.

Quote:

SOC (Dept. of Offense) had Bin Laden surrounded.

Article does not say that, passive-aggressive little nickname.

Quote:

Why didn't they bring him in alive as the U.S. Marshals (Dept. of Justice) do?

Because they're soldiers, not cops. They think he's a threat, he goes down. This was a counter-terrorist op, not a SWAT team storming a hostage situation.

Quote:

"Bringing him to justice" means just that, in a Court of Law. Not a mafia style hit squad.

Emotive language.

Quote:

Bin Laden was never officially charged with 9/11 by the DoJ or FBI, only by the Press and Presidents.

Due to the "proof" the FBI says they have being classified. You can't honestly convict a man on info you can't reveal in court. That's actually evidence against the conspiracy, since it would've been easy to cook up a little more evidence that they could declassify. Or just link the terrorists directly to Afghanistan and Iraq, then plant a WMD or two in Baghdad.

Quote:

He was a suspect of other crimes, and should have been brought in alive to face charges, and serve a life sentence. In the 1980's the CIA funded BIn Laden against the Russians in Afghanistan.

Yes, and they also funded Saddam. Look how that went.

Quote:

He walks with a cane. Anyone could catch him.

Unrelated correlation between the two points.

Quote:

White House confirms Bin Laden was UNARMED, so there was no excuse for killing him. What "threatening gestures" did unarmed Bin Laden make, flipping the bird?

Good question. Maybe one of the soldiers made a little judgement call, I dunno. Wouldn't blame 'im for losing a certain amount of objectivity.

Quote:

Why quickly hide the body to "sleep wid da fishes"?

His home country didn't want him, he's not going to be buried on American soil, and calling around to find a country that would take him would be a waste of time, and a sea burial is allowed in Islamic law when the body is at risk of being disturbed. It's called showing respect to the enemies of the US, something Truthers seem to have trouble comprehending. I suspect it's because their egos are often such that they lack the empathy to comprehend that people can justifiably have different opinions than them on things.

Quote:

He could not be allowed to testify or plead not guilty to 9/11.

He's had nine+ years to plead his innocence, yet he stopped doing that a while ago, the same way he did with the 1998 Embassy bombing.

[000063]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

...that doesn't make sense.

You believe bin Laden had kidney failure because the all-knowing government says so, and at the same time you think anyone who says the government is credible is a fool?

Remember, only the parts of the official story that support Truthers are credible. Everything else is lies.

[Jackanory]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

(snipped the terrorist apology spiel)

What example of American Justice does this give to the world?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...33e01470a8.jpg

Why does it revolve around 'American' justice? OBL didn't abide by American justice. Nor did he follow the codes of the Geneva convention.

He expected his fate......unlike those on 911, 7/7 etc etc etc etc.

Two bullets to the head was a waste of brass. He should have been waterboarded 184 times to within an inch of his life then skinned from head to toe and covered in salt and vinegar whilst being force fed pork. Then roasted over a spit nice and slowly then dropped about 100 floors.

Only then should he have been washed, placed in a blanket and dropped at sea. At least he got that. At least he was in one whole piece when he got that. Many of those he has blown or cruched to pieces didnt get the same.

He got all the American justice he deserved.

[tempesta29]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

...that doesn't make sense.

You believe bin Laden had kidney failure because the all-knowing government says so, and at the same time you think anyone who says the government is credible is a fool?

I never said the government said this.

[tempesta29]

Quote:

The U.S. official said bin Laden was shot when he made a threatening move.

LOL.

Yeah I'm sure this frail old man made a threatening move toward the Navy SEALs. Give me a ******* break.

Swearing must be completely masked in public sections of the forum.

Posted By:Lisa Simpson

[CompusMentus]

Originally Posted by Sabretooth

Google searches on this guy are 95% CT sites, the other 5% is someone mentioning he helped create some books with Tom Clancy.

His website makes him sound bigger than life itself. I'm calling shenanigans.

You might be right.......
Some interesting, ongoing exchanges on Pieczenik's Wikipedia entry. His page has been tagged for deletion. See HERE for more enlightening discussion on this.

Compus

[AJM8125]

Originally Posted by tempesta29

LOL.

Yeah I'm sure this frail old man made a threatening move toward the Navy SEALs. Give me a ******* break.

Swearing must be completely masked in public sections of the forum.

Posted By:Lisa Simpson

When the "frail old man" is a self declared enemy combatant and wanted terrorist who is rightly assumed to be armed and very dangerous makes a threatening move, you put a bullet through his brain and one through his heart, just for good measure.

There are several ways a person can arm themselves without it being apparent, btw.

[Triterope]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

What example of American Justice does this give to the world?

That if you wage war on American civilians, one day American elite troops will show up at your front door, kill you dead in front of your family, and then feed you to sharks.

And if you don't approve of that, you can get bent.

[Sam.I.Am]

Originally Posted by Triterope

That if you wage war on American civilians, one day American elite troops will show up at your front door, kill you dead in front of your family, and then feed you to sharks.

And if you don't approve of that, you can get bent.

Sometimes you need to show your enemies that, while you don't like to do it, you can speak their language if you have no other recourse. Pakistan, Bin Laden and his people were told in no uncertain terms what we expected and what to expect if the situation didn't change and Bin Laden remained a free man. I wouldn't ever expect Bin Laden to give up peacefully but Pakistan had every opportunity to either help or at least not hinder our pursuit of Bin Laden. They chose to not only hinder our efforts but to actively hide him within one of their cities. They're lucky we didn't just go in with a 2,000 lb bomb dropped smack dab in the center of his compound by a stealth bomber and claim that we had no idea what they were talking about. Luckily for them we wanted to limit civilian casualties and maybe get some intel out of it if possible.

"Hey Pakistan, that's a nice neighborhood you had there. Someone must've been building a bomb in there and it went off. Sorry to hear about that."...

[TruthMakesPeace]

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

Sometimes you need to show your enemies that, while you don't like to do it, you can speak their language if you have no other recourse. ...They're lucky we didn't just go in with a 2,000 lb bomb dropped smack dab in the center of his compound by a stealth bomber and claim that we had no idea what they were talking about.

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement. That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans. True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man. The Texas Rangers get their man. And they bring them in alive. They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive. Tear gas. Noise technology. Knock-out gas. Just waiting him out. There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head, and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN! It only makes America look bad to the world. We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by Triterope

That if you wage war on American civilians, one day American elite troops will show up at your front door, kill you dead in front of your family, and then feed you to sharks.

And if you don't approve of that, you can get bent.

I'll drink to that!!

[Caper]

Originally Posted by Sam.I.Am

They chose to not only hinder our efforts but to actively hide him within one of their cities.

I've been thinking alot about whether or not Bin Laden was helped by the Pakistani military. I don't think he was. It wouldn't suprise me and if he was shielded, it had to be by VERY few people. If I think of it from Bin Laden's perspective, I just couldn't trust letting people who could so easily contact American government personal and get a cool 25 mill and a no life in the states. I just don't think he would even risk that play... though he seemed to take a risk living where he did..... I don't know... maybe.

[Reactor drone]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement. That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans. True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man. The Texas Rangers get their man. And they bring them in alive. They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive. Tear gas. Noise technology. Knock-out gas. Just waiting him out. There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head, and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN! It only makes America look bad to the world. We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

You seem to be confused about the difference between law enforcement operations and military operations. This was a military operation in a war and opposition leaders are frequently targeted for destruction in wars in much the same way as you would destroy any enemy warfighting assets.

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement.

It's a good thing you're not in any kind of position of authority that requires critical thinking skills.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans.

Specualtion at best. How do you know what drives someone to become a terrorist? Do you have some inside knowledge?

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man.

Don't lie like that.
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/08/tw...t-in-st-louis/

OOPS. Suspect killed in gunfight with US Marshals.

http://www.newser.com/story/112211/u...-shootout.html

OOPS! Here's another.
http://www.newser.com/story/112211/u...-shootout.html

Now, how about you stop lying?

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

The Texas Rangers get their man.

OOPS!!
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2009...aying-suspect/

Oh, you mean like this?
http://www.baylor.edu/lariat/news.ph...ory&story=8710

Yeah, maybe you should stop trying to poison the well. It's not working well. In fact, it makes you look exactly like a liar.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

And they bring them in alive.

I posted 4 links with 5 minutes of google searches that prove that sometimes they do not.

Logical fallacy noted, and buried at sea.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

Again, conclusion from false assumption.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive.

Yep.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Tear gas.

Possibly.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Noise technology.

If you're reffering to LRADs, they don't work too well behind walls, and not in clear sight.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Knock-out gas.

Sorry, James Bond wasn't available, so we made due with what we had.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Just waiting him out.

Yep, because suspects never kill themselves.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head,

Unless he was trying to become an armed man. Or made a move like he had a gun in his coat/tunic/ whateverthe**** they wear.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN!

She tried to attack a US Military officer. They don't carry tazers for obvious reasons. She's lucky she didn't get shot in the face.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

It only makes America look bad to the world terrorists.

FTFY.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Yep, hence why we didn't parade his dead body through the streets, or display his death images all over the world.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

Sorry, my idea of justice is a little less than yours. But, like I said at the beginning, who gives a rats nuts?

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could?

Because they did.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive.

Yep, if he didn't decide to turn a gun on himself.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill,

Yep, they gave the order to kill him if needed. It's called the ROE, or Rules of Engagement.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11.

Most likely would have plead guilty. He's kind of a coward like that. But, we have enough evidence to prosecute him for other crimes that would have guaranteed the death penalty.

9/11 didn't matter as much.

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

Yep, if they decided to persue that route, but it's doubtfull, as they had plenty of evidence to execute him for when found guilty.

[Redtail]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement. That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans. True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man. The Texas Rangers get their man. And they bring them in alive. They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive. Tear gas. Noise technology. Knock-out gas. Just waiting him out. There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head, and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN! It only makes America look bad to the world. We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

... Did you just compare SEALs to law enforcement?

[R.Mackey]

... probably watched RoboCop at an impressionable age...

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement. That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans. True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man. The Texas Rangers get their man. And they bring them in alive. They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive. Tear gas. Noise technology. Knock-out gas. Just waiting him out. There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head, and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN! It only makes America look bad to the world. We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

Exactly. Maybe our new society/current leadership needs to watch some old westerns.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by Caper

I've been thinking alot about whether or not Bin Laden was helped by the Pakistani military. I don't think he was. It wouldn't suprise me and if he was shielded, it had to be by VERY few people. If I think of it from Bin Laden's perspective, I just couldn't trust letting people who could so easily contact American government personal and get a cool 25 mill and a no life in the states. I just don't think he would even risk that play... though he seemed to take a risk living where he did..... I don't know... maybe.

I am curious about the apparent use of stealth helicopters. I've seen it claimed that this was to avoid detection by Pakistan itself. That seems to indicate all or most of the Pakistani military was not made aware of the operation. If that's true, I can't help but wonder if it's because of concern that someone within the Pakistani government or military might warn Osama bin Laden of the impending raid.

[Myriad]

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

I am curious about the apparent use of stealth helicopters. I've seen it claimed that this was to avoid detection by Pakistan itself. That seems to indicate all or most of the Pakistani military was not aware of the operation. If that's true, I can't help but wonder if it's because of concern that someone within the Pakistani government or military might warn Osama bin Laden of the impending raid.

I don't wonder about that in the slightest.


Respectfully,
Myriad

[Oz1976]

Originally Posted by tempesta29

LOL.

Yeah I'm sure this frail old man made a threatening move toward the Navy SEALs. Give me a ******* break.

Swearing must be completely masked in public sections of the forum.

Posted By:Lisa Simpson

I would like to know your definition of "old"...he was only 54...if 54 is "old" now, man the US is REALLY in trouble if we raise the social security/retirement age to 67....gonna be alot of more frail, older people still in the work place. You act like he was in a wheelchair being pushed around his 72 virgins.

[Oz1976]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement. That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans. True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man. The Texas Rangers get their man. And they bring them in alive. They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive. Tear gas. Noise technology. Knock-out gas. Just waiting him out. There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head, and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN! It only makes America look bad to the world. We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

I assume in this "waiting out period", the pakistani government and people have no qualms about a bunch of American SF's setting up shop in the streets ya?

[Sam.I.Am]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

We're lucky you are not in Law Enforcement. That is the kind of lying, sneaky thinking and criminal behavior that creates terrorists and endangers innocent Americans. True Americans never stoop so low. We obey the laws while enforcing the laws. The U.S. Marshals always find a way to get their man. The Texas Rangers get their man. And they bring them in alive. They may have to think a little harder, be quicker, and be better trained. But they do it the right way.

There are SO many ways Bin Laden could have been taken alive. Tear gas. Noise technology. Knock-out gas. Just waiting him out. There was zero reason to shoot an unarmed man in the head, and an unarmed woman in the legs. AN UNARMED WOMAN! It only makes America look bad to the world. We are better than that. As leaders, we must hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior, to show what is truly justice, both at home and abroad.

Obama said "justice has been done" - and he's a Harvard Law School graduate. He should know better. Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

I figure you have to be trolling but just a few points.

1) SEALs aren't law enforcement and I doubt that they see themselves that way. They most certainly aren't Texas Rangers, you watch way too many reruns on TV.

2) Texas Rangers do from time to time kill their targets during apprehension as do any other police force the world over. There is no law enforcement agency on the face of this earth that doesn't allow for deadly force to protect oneself and other innocent people from being killed or having bodily harm done to them.

3) Justice is what people decide it is. In a perfect world Bin Laden would have been brought in without a scratch and tried in front of a jury. We don't live in a perfect world and Bin Laden had no reason to go willingly. We all know that, as did the men who went in after him. He had a long history of violence from the early 80's until the day he died and there's no way that that wasn't taken into account during his attempted capture.

4) I never claimed to be a law enforcement officer but I am aware that if I put up a fight that they will do whatever is required to take me into custody and that if I'm wanted for the violent murder of someone that they will always assume that I'm armed and dangerous until they know (not suspect but know) otherwise and react accordingly. That means a door broken down in the middle of the night with guns drawn is perfectly legal and if I even appear to be reaching for a weapon I can expect pretty much the same results that Bin Laden had.

Finally, that "Lying, sneaky behavior and criminal behavior" as you put it is exactly what was required to finally locate and try to capture Bin Laden and was done after over a decade of trying other less severe methods. Every law enforcement agency has someone above them telling them what is and is not legal. For civilian agencies it's usually the District Attorney's job to approve (or secure approval through a judge) to go outside the normal methods when the situation calls for it. In this case the SEALs had the approval of the President of the United States (which is all that they needed) who clearly didn't do this on a lark with no input from our own legal system. Under our laws the takedown was entirely legal.

The only questionable aspect about the whole thing is the fact that it took place in Pakistan without their express permission. That's a matter for the diplomats to hash out. I personally don't think that Pakistan will do more than give it lip service within their own borders for the extremists in their midst. They do have an avenue available to them in the form of the UN if they want to take it beyond that but I seriously doubt that they will do so because it will put their own country under the magnifying glass.

[Redtail]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Exactly. Maybe our new society/current leadership needs to watch some old westerns.

... Do you know the difference between real life & a movie? Let me put it this way, if you were to fall off of a tall building, Ryan Renolds would just cringe. Patrick Stewart? He has never been in outer space. The average mma middle weight would beat 7 shades of crap out of Matt Damon.

[Furcifer]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Justice is not lynching, execution without a trial. Justice is bringing in fugitives alive, to face trial before a judge and jury.

So why didn't the SEALS do that when they could? Even an armed troop of Boy Scouts using knock out gas could have simply waited him out, and brought him in alive. The answer seems to be that the White House gave orders to kill, and did not WANT him to ever testify, because he would plead not guilty to 9/11. Then the DoJ would have to provide evidence he had anything to do with planning 9/11.

I'm guessing as soon as the Seals saw weapons they couldn't bring him in alive.

Hopefully in the next few days, after the debriefing, the orders will be made public. I'm willing to bet however the mission was to take the house and apprehend Osama at all costs, dead or alive. They had enough intelligence to know he wasn't coming peacefully, but I'd guess they were "authorized" to use lethal force if any threat was identified.

What don't you get about this? It seems pretty simple to me. You can't hide behind armed gunman and not be considered a threat. Whether he had a weapon or not is irrelevant. As long as anyone in that place was moving they were a threat. The best way to keep people from moving it to put a bullet in their brain. Apparently that's exactly what they did.

[TruthMakesPeace]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

Conspiracy Theorists rejoice.

Here's a news report that Bin Laden's wife, 29 year old Amal Ahmed Abdul Fatah was the lady the soldier shot in the leg, and is recovering. She is from Yemen and married Bin Laden in 1997 at the age of 15. She and two other wives are in Pakistani custody, and they are interviewing them.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15...YW1hYmlubGFkZQ

Bin Laden was shot UNARMED. He was a minimal threat to a Navy SEAL. Apparently the plane was to kill Bin Laden, so he could not talk or plead innocent to 9/11.

On Alex Jones, Dr. Steve Pieczenik said that Bin Laden was dead of Marfan's disease in 2001, and that he was frozen on ice waiting for a political need for his death. So that is dubious, and they lose points.
http://911blogger.com/news/2011-05-0...comment-249220

If the perpetrators were to fake Bin Laden's death, they sure could have made it so much simpler. For example, Bin Laden could have been hiding alone or with a couple guards. Not with 23 kids and 3 wives all around, who would have to corroborate the story. Bin Laden's son Hazim died. Faking all that is too far fetched, even for a Truther like me.

[The Doc]

Originally Posted by TruthMakesPeace

Here's a news report that Bin Laden's wife, 29 year old Amal Ahmed Abdul Fatah was the lady the soldier shot in the leg, and is recovering. She is from Yemen and married Bin Laden in 1997 at the age of 15. She and two other wives are in Pakistani custody, and they are interviewing them.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15...YW1hYmlubGFkZQ

Bin Laden was shot UNARMED. Obviously he could no be allowed to talk or plead innocent to 9/11.

First and foremost, Bin Laden has confessed to 9/11 on multiple occasions, both in planned al-Qaeda media releases (for example, in 2004, 2007 and on various audio tapes) and in a tape recovered by US forces in 2001. Other high ranking persons in al-Qeada have made similar claims repeatedly.

To any thinking person, the guilt of Osama Bin Laden's and his role in the 9/11 attacks are clear. The arguments to the contrary have long since been proven wrong. I'm sorry if you disagree, but you're wrong, and no one owes it to you to try and explain it any further. If you don't understand it by now, you never will, and attempting to convince you otherwise would be a fantastic waste of time.

Second, your pathetic apologist argument in defense of bin Laden is just ridiculous. Intelligence analysts had assumed for a long time (based on reports and historical behavior) that Osama was always in reach of a suicide vest or other explosives. The violence of action exhibited by the DEVGRU SEALs during the raid in Abbottabad was absolutely necessary to ensure the safety of all U.S. personnel involved.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by The Doc

First and foremost, Bin Laden has confessed to 9/11 on multiple occasions, both in planned al-Qaeda media releases (for example, in 2004, 2007 and on various audio tapes) and in a tape recovered by US forces in 2001. Other high ranking persons in al-Qeada have made similar claims repeatedly.

To any thinking person, the guilt of Osama Bin Laden's and his role in the 9/11 attacks are clear. The arguments to the contrary have long since been proven wrong. I'm sorry if you disagree, but you're wrong, and no one owes it to you to try and explain it any further. If you don't understand it by now, you never will, and attempting to convince you otherwise would be a fantastic waste of time.

Second, your pathetic apologist argument in defense of bin Laden is just ridiculous. Intelligence analysts had assumed for a long time (based on reports and historical behavior) that Osama was always in reach of a suicide vest or other explosives. The violence of action exhibited by the DEVGRU SEALs during the raid in Abbottabad was absolutely necessary to ensure the safety of all U.S. personnel involved.

I don't see anyone defending bin laden. I do hear people questioning what our SEALs were ordered to do and why.