Homeopathy Petition

Minadin · 3rd May 2011, 07:30 PM

If you haven't yet signed the following petition (started by the JREF), please consider doing so now:

http://www.change.org/petitions/clos...athic-remedies

Text of said petition is as follows:

Quote:

Close the FDA loophole for Homeopathic Remedies

Dear Senator,

So-called "homeopathic remedies"—actually scam medications that contain no active ingredients—are exempt from certain FDA requirements because of a law passed more than 70 years ago. We urge you to close this loophole and make manufactures of these quack remedies play by the same rules as everyone else.

Drugs have to be tested for safety before they can be sold. Supplements have to carry disclaimers, telling consumers that their claims have not been evaluated by the FDA. But homeopathic remedies may be the only health products given a free pass to say they're intended to treat disease, without any proof at all that they work.

Manufacturers take millions of dollars a year from unsuspecting customers who often think they're buying real medicine. In fact, most homeopathic products are nothing but plain sugar pills with no active ingredients.

To protect consumers, please close this loophole. Require testing for homeopathic products and disclaimers for their health claims.

Here are the facts about homeopathic remedies:

-- No Ingredients: Homeopathic remedies are so extremely dilute that most do not contain a single atom of their claimed active ingredient. The most popular homeopathic remedy, oscillococcinum, is based on a dilution of one part duck liver to 10^400 parts of water. 10^400 is the number 1 with 400 zeroes after it. To make such a dilution, you’d have to mix a single molecule of duck liver with more matter than exists in the entire known universe.

-- No Testing: Homeopathic remedies are exempted from regulations requiring drugs to prove they’re effective and accurately labeled with respect to dosage and potency. What’s more, homeopathic remedies were never even tested by their inventors to make sure they work. Homeopathic remedies are invented by a process homeopaths call “proving”: they give a substance to a healthy person, observe the symptoms it causes, and then take it on faith that homeopathic doses of the same substance will cure those symptoms. For example, coffee causes sleeplessness—that’s all homeopaths need to know in order to prescribe homeopathically-diluted coffee as sleeping pills, called “coffea cruda.” According to homeopathic principles, there’s no need to test whether it actually helps anyone sleep.

-- No Facts: Major pharmacy chains like CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid sell useless homeopathic products right alongside real medicine, with no warning to consumers. Manufacturers and retailers profit by denying customers the facts they need to make up their minds. U.S. law exempts homeopathy from certain rules that govern drugs and nutritional supplements, so manufacturers can market homeopathic remedies for the treatment of illnesses despite the fact that reputable studies show homeopathy to work no better than dummy pills made of plain sugar.

Homeopathy used to be fairly benign and silly flim-flam for $$, but recently, I have at least 3 friends who are on this retarded 'homeopathic HGC' diet that limits them to 500 calories per day. Of course, they are losing weight, but they think it's due to the drops and not the fact that they are taking in less than 1/3 of their daily caloric needs.

Homeopathy is deceptive and dangerous.

Bruce Voigt · 4th May 2011, 07:05 AM

This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device

Nutrition is the aftermath of the digestive system and is the spirit of what was eaten.
Homeopathy by passes the digestive system!
----------

Oxygen is the main ingredient of bubbles in your spittle, the foam of rough water, the fizzies in your pop, yes lets mention pop. Coca-Cola was not brought to the world as a soft drink but was introduced as a medication. Unbeknownst to them this is the reason why.

Was in with my wife when she had our child and she figured I needed the Oxygen more than her so had a chance to experience the high of pure Oxygen. This was introduce to my body through the lungs, the Oxygen of a soft drink or beer is introduced to the body by the digestive system. Now think about this for a minute;

What if we just by passed the lungs and stomach (the drug addicts do) Well the pop companies are not going to stand for that and will influence the Govt liquor board to initiate another law. In the mean time, injection sites in the schools might be something to think about!

Hey don't laugh, have you ever added pop, nicotine, beer directly to the blood and as you think about what's in that flue shot, you can quit your sneering.

Future News head lines;
The Coca-Cola Patch has eliminated World Drug Wars

Turgor · 4th May 2011, 08:31 AM

I'll gladly sign that petition. I'm taking care of my cousin's appartment and cats while he's visiting Cuba, and one of the letters he received was from a homeopath. I haven't opened it, but it looked like a confirmation of an appointment. I'm planning on asking him what he is going to see this homeopath for when he gets back (well, I'll let him settle in for a few days, I'm more interested in hearing his experiences first).

Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? I'm worried it might just make him beleive all the more, considering the outcome of a previous discussion i had with him about 9/11 truthers, who have a strong case according to him.

-----

@Bruce: Oxygen is not the main ingredient in any of those things you listed.
- Bubbles in spittle, foam on rough water: mainly nitrogen
- Bubbles in soft drinks and beer: mainly carbon dioxide

I would also strongly suggest you do not take any fizzy drink intravenously, since bubbles in your arteries lead to a very painfull death

ehcks · 4th May 2011, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device

Wait.. wait.. isn't that a medieval torture device? You attach that to a pole and put it around someone's neck and they have to move at exactly the speed you do?

Mojo · 4th May 2011, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that?

You could try explaining the dilutions. A lot of people (even those who use it) think that homoeopathy is just a sort of herbal medicine. It might be a good idea to have some evidence on hand - several people have flat out refused to believe me about the sort of dilutions it uses.

Mojo · 4th May 2011, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

I'm taking care of my cousin's appartment and cats while he's visiting Cuba, and one of the letters he received was from a homeopath.

I hope they weren't offering him prophylaxis for Leptospirosis.

Emet · 4th May 2011, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? I'm worried it might just make him beleive all the more, considering the outcome of a previous discussion i had with him about 9/11 truthers, who have a strong case according to him.

I don't know if he'd be open to reading good science, but there are several good sources about homeopathy:

http://www.homeowatch.org/

http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html

SBM has >80 articles on the subject:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=5

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i...wareness-week/

ehcks · 4th May 2011, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

I hope they weren't offering him prophylaxis for Leptospirosis.

From that article. I tried to set up the superscripts, might have missed one.

Quote:

The biggest problem with this sort of homeopathy is that there is no medicine in the medicine. This intervention used mind-bending levels of dilution. Staring with “1 x 10⁶ bacteria/ml” and using Korvsakovian [sic] dilutions (plus succession) the manufacturers produced two potencies: “200°C [sic] (200 X 1:100 dilutions) and 10 MC (10⁴ X 1:100 dilutions)”

So the most concentrated form of the medicine diluted the initial preparation to one part in 10⁴⁰⁰! The highest potency represents a dilution of one part in 10²⁰⁰⁰⁰!!

I don't have a word for how ridiculous that number is. There isn't enough space in a million universes entirely full of water to have enough water to make that level of dilution.

Those aren't dilutions, those are delusions.

Professor Yaffle · 4th May 2011, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? I'm worried it might just make him beleive all the more, considering the outcome of a previous discussion i had with him about 9/11 truthers, who have a strong case according to him.

Quote:

It doesn't all add up ...
The 'science' behind homeopathy

Homeopathic remedies are made by taking an ingredient, such as arsenic, and diluting it down so far that there is not a single molecule left in the dose that you get. The ingredients are selected on the basis of like cures like, so that a substance that causes sweating at normal doses, for example, would be used to treat sweating.

Many people confuse homeopathy with herbalism and do not realise just how far homeopathic remedies are diluted. The typical dilution is called "30C": this means that the original substance has been diluted by 1 drop in 100, 30 times. On the Society of Homeopaths site, in their "What is homeopathy?" section, they say that "30C contains less than 1 part per million of the original substance."

This is an understatement: a 30C homeopathic preparation is a dilution of 1 in 10030, or rather 1 in 1060, which means a 1 followed by 60 zeroes, or - let's be absolutely clear - a dilution of 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000.

To phrase that in the Society of Homeopaths' terms, we should say: "30C contains less than one part per million million million million million million million million million million of the original substance."

At a homeopathic dilution of 100C, which they sell routinely, and which homeopaths claim is even more powerful than 30C, the treating substance is diluted by more than the total number of atoms in the universe. Homeopathy was invented before we knew what atoms were, or how many there are, or how big they are. It has not changed its belief system in light of this information.
[snip]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...sciencenews.g2

Turgor · 4th May 2011, 09:07 AM

Thanks ehcks, Mojo and Emet. I know about the dilution, but it's probably a good idea to have some sources for it at hand. I think I can get him to read some scientific articles, he just got his degree, although it is an MA.

Many thanks for that link to SBM, I remember reading an article there before but the site had slipped my mind. I'll be doing some reading tonight

ETA: also thanks to professor Yaffle, who posted while i was typing

Bruce Voigt · 4th May 2011, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

@Bruce: Oxygen is not the main ingredient in any of those things you listed.
- Bubbles in spittle, foam on rough water: mainly nitrogen
- Bubbles in soft drinks and beer: mainly carbon dioxide

All Matter Produces Oxygen

Unknown to education and science are the true workings of fire, water, air, light, magnetism, sound, sight, cold, hot. electricity, earthquakes, tides–and I could go on and on. I ask you, without knowing the truth of such things, how in bloody H can one determine the simplicity of Homeopathy!

Turgor · 4th May 2011, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

I hope they weren't offering him prophylaxis for Leptospirosis.

Oh wow, I hope that isn't the case either. That makes me slightly worried.

Kumar · 4th May 2011, 09:37 AM

Though I am not concerned because I use lower potencies(in which molecular presence can be justified). But if science is not yet become absolute & final and so, still miss & weakness in its understandings can be possible, how can it claim non-presence & non-effectiveness for absolute? "Yet unclear" is there in many many medical practices. If so, you can also file petitions about religions, GOD worshiping and other yet unclear practices--existing in people at mass all over the world since long back and with least advesities. Just check. I don't mind & shall be happy, if potencies with molecular presence come into practice.

Minadin · 4th May 2011, 09:40 AM

So, Kumar, may I assume that you and Bruce will not be signing the petition?

Kumar · 4th May 2011, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Minadin

So, Kumar, may I assume that you and Bruce will not be signing the petition?

I do support Absolute understandings. Moreover, I shall not want that ongoing research on many possibilties with added adavantage should stop. It should also be supported by Mr Randi to encourage people to research & take award.

Emet · 4th May 2011, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Minadin

So, Kumar, may I assume that you and Bruce will not be signing the petition?

Originally Posted by Kumar

I do support Absolute understandings. Moreover, I shall not want that ongoing research on many possibilties with added adavantage should stop. It should also be supported by Mr Randi to encourage people to research & take award.

I guess you received your answer, Minadin.

catsmate1 · 4th May 2011, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

And my Ignore list grows by one.

Originally Posted by ehcks

Wait.. wait.. isn't that a medieval torture device? You attach that to a pole and put it around someone's neck and they have to move at exactly the speed you do?

You can get similar devices from a number of BDSM suppliers.

Originally Posted by Turgor

I would also strongly suggest you do not take any fizzy drink intravenously, since bubbles in your arteries lead to a very painfull death

Though they can be entertaining if introduced nasally.

RenaissanceBiker · 4th May 2011, 11:10 AM

I signed it.

Originally Posted by Kumar

But if science is not yet become absolute & final and so, still miss & weakness in its understandings can be possible, how can it claim non-presence & non-effectiveness for absolute?

We discussed science, remember? Science will never be absolute and final. That's the beauty of it. It keeps getting better and better. Homeopathy is as bad or worse than your 5 elements philosophy. Really, how do you even reconcile these two very different ideas?

Minadin · 4th May 2011, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

I do support Absolute understandings. Moreover, I shall not want that ongoing research on many possibilties with added adavantage should stop. It should also be supported by Mr Randi to encourage people to research & take award.

In a way, the petition is asking that homeopathic remedies be given the same treatment and consideration as real western science-based medicines.

If these cures are as effective as advertised, shouldn't homeopaths see this development as a big step forward for them?

Kumar · 4th May 2011, 07:53 PM

I do agree that homeopathic applications can not be equal to modern medicines. These are two different type of systems(probably energetic & materialistic) & both may hold their own status. Therefore I support both, so indicated in my signatures.

Fnord · 4th May 2011, 08:20 PM

I'm sure that the readers of the petition (U.S. Congress) will take into account the national citizenship of each signator to assess the relevance of the petition.

Fnord · 4th May 2011, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device

Done. Bogus.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

Nutrition is the aftermath of the digestive system...

No, it's a by-product.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

... and is the spirit of what was eaten.

No. Dead things have no 'spirit'.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

Homeopathy by passes the digestive system!

No. Homeopathy bypasses reality - belief in it is delusional.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

Oxygen is the main ingredient of bubbles in your spittle, the foam of rough water...

No. Nitrogen comprises about 79%, as opposed to Oxygen's 20%.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

the fizzies in your pop...

No. That's Carbon Dioxide, not Oxygen.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

... yes lets mention pop. Coca-Cola was not brought to the world as a soft drink but was introduced as a medication. Unbeknownst to them this is the reason why.

It was originally sold with Cocaine as its main ingredient - that's where the 'Coca' in 'Coca-Cola' comes from.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

Was in with my wife when she had our child and she figured I needed the Oxygen more than her so had a chance to experience the high of pure Oxygen. This was introduce to my body through the lungs, the Oxygen of a soft drink or beer is introduced to the body by the digestive system. Now think about this for a minute;

I did. Your claim is bogus. The gas in a soft drink or beer is Carbon Dioxide, which is a substance that you body wants to get rid of, not take in.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

What if we just by passed the lungs and stomach (the drug addicts do) Well the pop companies are not going to stand for that and will influence the Govt liquor board to initiate another law. In the mean time, injection sites in the schools might be something to think about!

Off your meds tonight, aren't you?

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

Hey don't laugh, have you ever added pop, nicotine, beer directly to the blood and as you think about what's in that flue shot, you can quit your sneering.

I do not sneer at misinformed and delusional people.

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

Future News head lines; The Coca-Cola Patch has eliminated World Drug Wars

Dream on ... but next time, go to sleep first.

Supermac · 5th May 2011, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt

This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device

I laughed my socks off. Does that count?

3rd May 2011, 07:30 PM	#1
Minadin Hiding his Head in the Sane Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 2,473	Homeopathy Petition If you haven't yet signed the following petition (started by the JREF), please consider doing so now: http://www.change.org/petitions/clos...athic-remedies Text of said petition is as follows: Quote: Close the FDA loophole for Homeopathic Remedies Dear Senator, So-called "homeopathic remedies"—actually scam medications that contain no active ingredients—are exempt from certain FDA requirements because of a law passed more than 70 years ago. We urge you to close this loophole and make manufactures of these quack remedies play by the same rules as everyone else. Drugs have to be tested for safety before they can be sold. Supplements have to carry disclaimers, telling consumers that their claims have not been evaluated by the FDA. But homeopathic remedies may be the only health products given a free pass to say they're intended to treat disease, without any proof at all that they work. Manufacturers take millions of dollars a year from unsuspecting customers who often think they're buying real medicine. In fact, most homeopathic products are nothing but plain sugar pills with no active ingredients. To protect consumers, please close this loophole. Require testing for homeopathic products and disclaimers for their health claims. Here are the facts about homeopathic remedies: -- No Ingredients: Homeopathic remedies are so extremely dilute that most do not contain a single atom of their claimed active ingredient. The most popular homeopathic remedy, oscillococcinum, is based on a dilution of one part duck liver to 10^400 parts of water. 10^400 is the number 1 with 400 zeroes after it. To make such a dilution, you’d have to mix a single molecule of duck liver with more matter than exists in the entire known universe. -- No Testing: Homeopathic remedies are exempted from regulations requiring drugs to prove they’re effective and accurately labeled with respect to dosage and potency. What’s more, homeopathic remedies were never even tested by their inventors to make sure they work. Homeopathic remedies are invented by a process homeopaths call “proving”: they give a substance to a healthy person, observe the symptoms it causes, and then take it on faith that homeopathic doses of the same substance will cure those symptoms. For example, coffee causes sleeplessness—that’s all homeopaths need to know in order to prescribe homeopathically-diluted coffee as sleeping pills, called “coffea cruda.” According to homeopathic principles, there’s no need to test whether it actually helps anyone sleep. -- No Facts: Major pharmacy chains like CVS, Walgreens, and Rite Aid sell useless homeopathic products right alongside real medicine, with no warning to consumers. Manufacturers and retailers profit by denying customers the facts they need to make up their minds. U.S. law exempts homeopathy from certain rules that govern drugs and nutritional supplements, so manufacturers can market homeopathic remedies for the treatment of illnesses despite the fact that reputable studies show homeopathy to work no better than dummy pills made of plain sugar. Homeopathy used to be fairly benign and silly flim-flam for $$, but recently, I have at least 3 friends who are on this retarded 'homeopathic HGC' diet that limits them to 500 calories per day. Of course, they are losing weight, but they think it's due to the drops and not the fact that they are taking in less than 1/3 of their daily caloric needs. Homeopathy is deceptive and dangerous.
	__________________ Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions. If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are. Support the democratic freedom of the people of Iran.

4th May 2011, 07:05 AM	#2
Bruce Voigt Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 212	This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device Nutrition is the aftermath of the digestive system and is the spirit of what was eaten. Homeopathy by passes the digestive system! ---------- Oxygen is the main ingredient of bubbles in your spittle, the foam of rough water, the fizzies in your pop, yes lets mention pop. Coca-Cola was not brought to the world as a soft drink but was introduced as a medication. Unbeknownst to them this is the reason why. Was in with my wife when she had our child and she figured I needed the Oxygen more than her so had a chance to experience the high of pure Oxygen. This was introduce to my body through the lungs, the Oxygen of a soft drink or beer is introduced to the body by the digestive system. Now think about this for a minute; What if we just by passed the lungs and stomach (the drug addicts do) Well the pop companies are not going to stand for that and will influence the Govt liquor board to initiate another law. In the mean time, injection sites in the schools might be something to think about! Hey don't laugh, have you ever added pop, nicotine, beer directly to the blood and as you think about what's in that flue shot, you can quit your sneering. Future News head lines; The Coca-Cola Patch has eliminated World Drug Wars
Bruce Voigt Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 212

4th May 2011, 08:41 AM	#4
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,689	Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device Wait.. wait.. isn't that a medieval torture device? You attach that to a pole and put it around someone's neck and they have to move at exactly the speed you do?
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,689

4th May 2011, 08:43 AM	#5
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Originally Posted by Turgor Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? You could try explaining the dilutions. A lot of people (even those who use it) think that homoeopathy is just a sort of herbal medicine. It might be a good idea to have some evidence on hand - several people have flat out refused to believe me about the sort of dilutions it uses.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th May 2011, 08:46 AM	#6
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Originally Posted by Turgor I'm taking care of my cousin's appartment and cats while he's visiting Cuba, and one of the letters he received was from a homeopath. I hope they weren't offering him prophylaxis for Leptospirosis.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

4th May 2011, 08:31 AM	#3
Turgor Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 276	I'll gladly sign that petition. I'm taking care of my cousin's appartment and cats while he's visiting Cuba, and one of the letters he received was from a homeopath. I haven't opened it, but it looked like a confirmation of an appointment. I'm planning on asking him what he is going to see this homeopath for when he gets back (well, I'll let him settle in for a few days, I'm more interested in hearing his experiences first). Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? I'm worried it might just make him beleive all the more, considering the outcome of a previous discussion i had with him about 9/11 truthers, who have a strong case according to him. ----- @Bruce: Oxygen is not the main ingredient in any of those things you listed. - Bubbles in spittle, foam on rough water: mainly nitrogen - Bubbles in soft drinks and beer: mainly carbon dioxide I would also strongly suggest you do not take any fizzy drink intravenously, since bubbles in your arteries lead to a very painfull death

4th May 2011, 08:54 AM	#7
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	Originally Posted by Turgor Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? I'm worried it might just make him beleive all the more, considering the outcome of a previous discussion i had with him about 9/11 truthers, who have a strong case according to him. I don't know if he'd be open to reading good science, but there are several good sources about homeopathy: http://www.homeowatch.org/ http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html SBM has >80 articles on the subject: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?cat=5 http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i...wareness-week/
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395

4th May 2011, 08:56 AM	#8
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,689	Originally Posted by Mojo I hope they weren't offering him prophylaxis for Leptospirosis. From that article. I tried to set up the superscripts, might have missed one. Quote: The biggest problem with this sort of homeopathy is that there is no medicine in the medicine. This intervention used mind-bending levels of dilution. Staring with “1 x 10⁶ bacteria/ml” and using Korvsakovian [sic] dilutions (plus succession) the manufacturers produced two potencies: “200°C [sic] (200 X 1:100 dilutions) and 10 MC (10⁴ X 1:100 dilutions)” So the most concentrated form of the medicine diluted the initial preparation to one part in 10⁴⁰⁰! The highest potency represents a dilution of one part in 10²⁰⁰⁰⁰!! I don't have a word for how ridiculous that number is. There isn't enough space in a million universes entirely full of water to have enough water to make that level of dilution. Those aren't dilutions, those are delusions.
ehcks Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,689

4th May 2011, 09:03 AM	#9
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,326	Originally Posted by Turgor Does anyone have any tips on how to proceed after that? I'm worried it might just make him beleive all the more, considering the outcome of a previous discussion i had with him about 9/11 truthers, who have a strong case according to him. Quote: It doesn't all add up ... The 'science' behind homeopathy Homeopathic remedies are made by taking an ingredient, such as arsenic, and diluting it down so far that there is not a single molecule left in the dose that you get. The ingredients are selected on the basis of like cures like, so that a substance that causes sweating at normal doses, for example, would be used to treat sweating. Many people confuse homeopathy with herbalism and do not realise just how far homeopathic remedies are diluted. The typical dilution is called "30C": this means that the original substance has been diluted by 1 drop in 100, 30 times. On the Society of Homeopaths site, in their "What is homeopathy?" section, they say that "30C contains less than 1 part per million of the original substance." This is an understatement: a 30C homeopathic preparation is a dilution of 1 in 10030, or rather 1 in 1060, which means a 1 followed by 60 zeroes, or - let's be absolutely clear - a dilution of 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000. To phrase that in the Society of Homeopaths' terms, we should say: "30C contains less than one part per million million million million million million million million million million of the original substance." At a homeopathic dilution of 100C, which they sell routinely, and which homeopaths claim is even more powerful than 30C, the treating substance is diluted by more than the total number of atoms in the universe. Homeopathy was invented before we knew what atoms were, or how many there are, or how big they are. It has not changed its belief system in light of this information. [snip] http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...sciencenews.g2
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

4th May 2011, 09:07 AM	#10
Turgor Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 276	Thanks ehcks, Mojo and Emet. I know about the dilution, but it's probably a good idea to have some sources for it at hand. I think I can get him to read some scientific articles, he just got his degree, although it is an MA. Many thanks for that link to SBM, I remember reading an article there before but the site had slipped my mind. I'll be doing some reading tonight ETA: also thanks to professor Yaffle, who posted while i was typing
	Last edited by Turgor; 4th May 2011 at 09:08 AM.

4th May 2011, 09:15 AM	#11
Bruce Voigt Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 212	Originally Posted by Turgor @Bruce: Oxygen is not the main ingredient in any of those things you listed. - Bubbles in spittle, foam on rough water: mainly nitrogen - Bubbles in soft drinks and beer: mainly carbon dioxide All Matter Produces Oxygen Unknown to education and science are the true workings of fire, water, air, light, magnetism, sound, sight, cold, hot. electricity, earthquakes, tides–and I could go on and on. I ask you, without knowing the truth of such things, how in bloody H can one determine the simplicity of Homeopathy!
Bruce Voigt Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 212

4th May 2011, 09:18 AM	#12
Turgor Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 276	Originally Posted by Mojo I hope they weren't offering him prophylaxis for Leptospirosis. Oh wow, I hope that isn't the case either. That makes me slightly worried.

4th May 2011, 09:37 AM	#13
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	Though I am not concerned because I use lower potencies(in which molecular presence can be justified). But if science is not yet become absolute & final and so, still miss & weakness in its understandings can be possible, how can it claim non-presence & non-effectiveness for absolute? "Yet unclear" is there in many many medical practices. If so, you can also file petitions about religions, GOD worshiping and other yet unclear practices--existing in people at mass all over the world since long back and with least advesities. Just check. I don't mind & shall be happy, if potencies with molecular presence come into practice.
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	__________________ Noble/Logical non-technical views only, no commitments.Live & Let Live. Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear. Can Chemical Medicines+Potentised Remedies be the solution for many unclear disorder to cover both Matter & Energy. Last edited by Kumar; 4th May 2011 at 09:40 AM.

4th May 2011, 09:40 AM	#14
Minadin Hiding his Head in the Sane Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 2,473	So, Kumar, may I assume that you and Bruce will not be signing the petition?
	__________________ Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions. If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are. Support the democratic freedom of the people of Iran.

4th May 2011, 09:42 AM	#15
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	Originally Posted by Minadin So, Kumar, may I assume that you and Bruce will not be signing the petition? I do support Absolute understandings. Moreover, I shall not want that ongoing research on many possibilties with added adavantage should stop. It should also be supported by Mr Randi to encourage people to research & take award.
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	__________________ Noble/Logical non-technical views only, no commitments.Live & Let Live. Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear. Can Chemical Medicines+Potentised Remedies be the solution for many unclear disorder to cover both Matter & Energy. Last edited by Kumar; 4th May 2011 at 09:48 AM.

4th May 2011, 10:17 AM	#16
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	Originally Posted by Minadin So, Kumar, may I assume that you and Bruce will not be signing the petition? Originally Posted by Kumar I do support Absolute understandings. Moreover, I shall not want that ongoing research on many possibilties with added adavantage should stop. It should also be supported by Mr Randi to encourage people to research & take award. I guess you received your answer, Minadin.
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395

4th May 2011, 10:43 AM	#17
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,095	Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt <verbose and widely spammed garbage snipped> And my Ignore list grows by one. Originally Posted by ehcks Wait.. wait.. isn't that a medieval torture device? You attach that to a pole and put it around someone's neck and they have to move at exactly the speed you do? You can get similar devices from a number of BDSM suppliers. Originally Posted by Turgor I would also strongly suggest you do not take any fizzy drink intravenously, since bubbles in your arteries lead to a very painfull death Though they can be entertaining if introduced nasally.

4th May 2011, 11:10 AM	#18
RenaissanceBiker Eats shoots and leaves. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: South Carolina Posts: 6,793	I signed it. Originally Posted by Kumar But if science is not yet become absolute & final and so, still miss & weakness in its understandings can be possible, how can it claim non-presence & non-effectiveness for absolute? We discussed science, remember? Science will never be absolute and final. That's the beauty of it. It keeps getting better and better. Homeopathy is as bad or worse than your 5 elements philosophy. Really, how do you even reconcile these two very different ideas?
	__________________ "Truth does not contradict truth." - St. Augustine "Faith often contradicts faith. Therefore faith is not an indication of truth." - RenaissanceBiker

4th May 2011, 11:24 AM	#19
Minadin Hiding his Head in the Sane Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 2,473	Originally Posted by Kumar I do support Absolute understandings. Moreover, I shall not want that ongoing research on many possibilties with added adavantage should stop. It should also be supported by Mr Randi to encourage people to research & take award. In a way, the petition is asking that homeopathic remedies be given the same treatment and consideration as real western science-based medicines. If these cures are as effective as advertised, shouldn't homeopaths see this development as a big step forward for them?
	__________________ Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions. If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are. Support the democratic freedom of the people of Iran.

4th May 2011, 07:53 PM	#20
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	I do agree that homeopathic applications can not be equal to modern medicines. These are two different type of systems(probably energetic & materialistic) & both may hold their own status. Therefore I support both, so indicated in my signatures.
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	__________________ Noble/Logical non-technical views only, no commitments.Live & Let Live. Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear. Can Chemical Medicines+Potentised Remedies be the solution for many unclear disorder to cover both Matter & Energy.

4th May 2011, 08:20 PM	#21
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	I'm sure that the readers of the petition (U.S. Congress) will take into account the national citizenship of each signator to assess the relevance of the petition.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

4th May 2011, 08:31 PM	#22
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device Done. Bogus. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt Nutrition is the aftermath of the digestive system... No, it's a by-product. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt ... and is the spirit of what was eaten. No. Dead things have no 'spirit'. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt Homeopathy by passes the digestive system! No. Homeopathy bypasses reality - belief in it is delusional. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt Oxygen is the main ingredient of bubbles in your spittle, the foam of rough water... No. Nitrogen comprises about 79%, as opposed to Oxygen's 20%. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt the fizzies in your pop... No. That's Carbon Dioxide, not Oxygen. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt ... yes lets mention pop. Coca-Cola was not brought to the world as a soft drink but was introduced as a medication. Unbeknownst to them this is the reason why. It was originally sold with Cocaine as its main ingredient - that's where the 'Coca' in 'Coca-Cola' comes from. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt Was in with my wife when she had our child and she figured I needed the Oxygen more than her so had a chance to experience the high of pure Oxygen. This was introduce to my body through the lungs, the Oxygen of a soft drink or beer is introduced to the body by the digestive system. Now think about this for a minute; I did. Your claim is bogus. The gas in a soft drink or beer is Carbon Dioxide, which is a substance that you body wants to get rid of, not take in. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt What if we just by passed the lungs and stomach (the drug addicts do) Well the pop companies are not going to stand for that and will influence the Govt liquor board to initiate another law. In the mean time, injection sites in the schools might be something to think about! Off your meds tonight, aren't you? Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt Hey don't laugh, have you ever added pop, nicotine, beer directly to the blood and as you think about what's in that flue shot, you can quit your sneering. I do not sneer at misinformed and delusional people. Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt Future News head lines; The Coca-Cola Patch has eliminated World Drug Wars Dream on ... but next time, go to sleep first.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.** Last edited by Fnord; 4th May 2011 at 08:33 PM.

5th May 2011, 02:25 AM	#23
Supermac Scholar Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: North East England Posts: 93	Originally Posted by Bruce Voigt This one will knock your socks off -- google- the magic magee healing device I laughed my socks off. Does that count?