Merged: Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

There are many vaccines that babies are getting that just don't make sense.

...to you.

Quote:

The relatively new cancer vaccine that caused the immediate death of 4 young children.

Oh God! That's MUCH worse than the long, slow death of thousands of young children from the actual cancer!

ETA: OK, we're talking cervical cancer. It usually hits later in life, but does kill 79000 women a year in India.

Quote:

What are the vaccine damages done to children without death as a result?

I have a nasty scar on my arm from the smallpox vaccine.

[Arisia]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

...
I have a nasty scar on my arm from the smallpox vaccine.

Ditto. Of course, CM will claim that's far worse than the actual disease.

[Clayton Moore]

I have little regard for vaccine robots.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I have little regard for vaccine robots.

I suppose this is your way to bow out of the debate while saving face then? It is far easier than to deal with the evidence against you or at least people calling out your less than stellar sources.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol

I suppose this is your way to bow out of the debate while saving face then? It is far easier than to deal with the evidence against you or at least people calling out your less than stellar sources.

Do you have a list, in sequence, of the first 22-25 vaccines a baby/toddler gets in the USA before she is two years old?

[Travis]

And what would be your point when provided with this list?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Travis

And what would be your point when provided with this list?

That's not how it works.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

That's not how it works.

But it is how it works, because for all the sources you have provided you haven't provided anything that shows that those vaccines are actually harmful.

BUT...that has nothing to do with your statement dismissing those who disagree with you. You see my issue is with the way you are making an argument, and yet refusing to engage those who come up with a counterpoint to your argument. Do you understand? Here is a source by the way, and it means nothing to you.

So why is it you come to a forum based on debate and refuse to engage with those who provide a counterpoint?

EDIT: If you feel that members are being unfair, and ridiculous, then the solution is to break off the argument...not engaging in one while refusing to engage in one.

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I have little regard for vaccine robots.

I see you've chosen to ignore the fact that the investigation into the HPV vaccine trials in India showed that those deaths blamed on the vaccine were nothing to do with the vaccine.

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Tolls

I see you've chosen to ignore the fact that the investigation into the HPV vaccine trials in India showed that those deaths blamed on the vaccine were nothing to do with the vaccine.

Oh, come on. Four deaths in a country with only a billion people? What are the odds of THAT happening! It HAD to be the vaccines!

[Tomblvd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I have little regard for vaccine robots.

That's not how it works.

Of course not. In your world "how it works" is that you make assertion after assertion, only to have them proven wrong or questioned. You then disappear for a few days and upon your return, pretend the entire discussion never happened.

But it isn't helping. It only shows how ill-informed you are.

[Grassy Knowlington]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I have little regard for vaccine robots.

What is a "vaccine robot"?

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington

What is a "vaccine robot"?

They don't exist. But, just in case someone invents one, he wants them to know that he has little regard for them.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Do you have a list, in sequence, of the first 22-25 vaccines a baby/toddler gets in the USA before she is two years old?

You're claiming vaccines are harmful so you should have looked at the evidence before making the claim.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington

What is a "vaccine robot"?

A robot with a needle.

[Tomblvd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Do you have a list, in sequence, of the first 22-25 vaccines a baby/toddler gets in the USA before she is two years old?

If you are going to lecture people on the safety and necessity of vaccines, shouldn't you already know that?

If not, why should anyone believe a word you say?

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Tomblvd

If you are going to lecture people on the safety and necessity of vaccines, shouldn't you already know that?

If not, why should anyone believe a word you say?

That's not how it works.

[Arisia]

Just watched BBC World News America, and they had a story about vaccination programs in Sierra Leone. At the end of the report, they had a quote from a worker for a global vaccination program, that 1.7 million children die of vaccine-preventable diseases every year. I assume most of those deaths are in the Third World at this point, but we shouldn't be complacent in the First World, and we really should try harder to expand vaccination programs in every part of the world.

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

Do you have a list, in sequence, of the first 22-25 vaccines a baby/toddler gets in the USA before she is two years old?

Yes. Do you have a point?
Edit: more here.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomblvd

If you are going to lecture people on the safety and necessity of vaccines, shouldn't you already know that?

If not, why should anyone believe a word you say?

I did. I needed an agreed upon starting point.

[TSR]

.
And now you have one -- the CDC recommends less than half the number you claim, the vast majority of which diseases can result in death.

What now?
.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by TSR

.
And now you have one -- the CDC recommends less than half the number you claim, the vast majority of which diseases can result in death.

What now?
.

http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/...chedule-pr.pdf

I see more than 22 doses by the age of TWO in the summaries below the chart

[TSR]

.
You didn't ask for individual doses of the various vaccines, you asked for vaccines.

Regardless, what's next?
.

[Safe-Keeper]

I think Clayton is going by the anti-vaxxer assumption that it's dangerous to be given too many vaccines at a time. This has, to my layman knowledge, not been demonstrated.

[Tomblvd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html/...chedule-pr.pdf

I see more than 22 doses by the age of TWO in the summaries below the chart

And?

Go on......

[Tomblvd]

....and finish the thought, come on Clayton, we know you can do it.

[Safe-Keeper]

Do you realize how many different gases newborn babies inhale within the first two DAYS of their life?

[Giordano]

Even with the longer life expectancy vaccines have given me, I'm not sure I will last long enough to see Clayton Moore get to the point. Please, CM, just put forward your argument in one post and let it be quickly beaten to death by the facts, rather than torture it over days in this fashion...

Okay, I will walk open eyed into your cleverly baited trap; children get a very modest series of vaccines (and booster immunizations) spread over 24 months. I presume CM views this as a veritable biological onslaught that will leave that child a weakened, hollow, destroyed shell of a human being (a view acquired, no doubt, though perusing anti-vax websites).

Do you have any idea the number of antigens that child is exposed to in the environment in the first month of his life, compared to the few they will see through vaccinations? This is how one's immune system is trained "naturally." There are bacteria and viruses, dirt and dust, protozoa and pollen, all around babies (even those hidden away at home). Just being born usually means being exposed to the bacteria in Mom's feces. The child's B and T cells, macrophages and dendritic cells leap into action to catalog the thousands or millions of these antigens, and to respond if required.

The vaccine schedule you are concerned about simply makes certain that among the countless antigens that the child will be exposed to in the first two years of their life are ten very important ones: the ones from dangerous disease organisms, but without the dangerous diseases themselves. Then, if they are exposed to the actual disease later, they will be protected.

Do you think 10 more antigens can somehow exhaust the kid's immune system, compared to the 10000 antigens the kid gets from digging in the backyard? Finally, please don't tell me vaccines have mercury and dead fetuses in them; I've seen that argument refuted many times before; vaccines are a lot more pure than 99% of the things a baby will be putting in their mouth the first two years of their life. CM: I think you are a bright person, but with the wrong crusade.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Even with the longer life expectancy vaccines have given me, I'm not sure I will last long enough to see Clayton Moore get to the point. Please, CM, just put forward your argument in one post and let it be quickly beaten to death by the facts, rather than torture it over days in this fashion...

The fact is that HIV in the US was narrowed down to a single immigrant from Haiti. And HIV is a disease. Autism is a condition that has relatively recently appeared in increasing numbers globally/world wide to children/toddlers around the age of 2 usually younger.

Cause unknown.
But it is not vaccines.

Probable cause of the increases?
Better diagnosis capability.
Like conditions now being diagnosed as within the autism spectrum.
Children predisposed towards autism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_autism

Quote:

Heritability contributes about 90% of the risk of a child developing autism, but the genetics of autism are complex and typically it is unclear which genes are responsible.

Even if the above 90% is correct how can it be triggered globally? What is happening to the baby in Japan, New York, Australia, and London?

Something is causing a significant increase in cases of autism within a narrow window of about 6 months to a year.

[Tomblvd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The fact is that HIV in the US was narrowed down to a single immigrant from Haiti. And HIV is a disease. Autism is a condition that has relatively recently appeared in increasing numbers globally/world wide to children/toddlers around the age of 2 usually younger.

Cause unknown.
But it is not vaccines.

Probable cause of the increases?
Better diagnosis capability.
Like conditions now being diagnosed as within the autism spectrum.
Children predisposed towards autism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_autism


Even if the above 90% is correct how can it be triggered globally? What is happening to the baby in Japan, New York, Australia, and London?

Something is causing a significant increase in cases of autism within a narrow window of about 6 months to a year.

And Clayton quickly changes the subject........

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

I don't care a freaking tinker's damn about whether Autism causes vaccines.

Quote:

Something is causing a significant increase in cases of autism within a narrow window of about 6 months to a year.

Is your account used by several different people?

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The fact is that HIV in the US was narrowed down to a single immigrant from Haiti. And HIV is a disease. Autism is a condition that has relatively recently appeared in increasing numbers globally/world wide to children/toddlers around the age of 2 usually younger.

Cause unknown.
But it is not vaccines.

Probable cause of the increases?
Better diagnosis capability.
Like conditions now being diagnosed as within the autism spectrum.
Children predisposed towards autism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_autism


Even if the above 90% is correct how can it be triggered globally? What is happening to the baby in Japan, New York, Australia, and London?

Something is causing a significant increase in cases of autism within a narrow window of about 6 months to a year.

I have a sneaking suspicion that children exist globally.

[Giordano]

Indeed, CM does like to change the subject. I'm not even certain what the HIV reference is meant to imply. But sticking with the apparent "increase" in autism: clearly a lot of it can be attributed to better diagnosis; perhaps all of it. But let's go with CM's argument that to some extent there is a real increase in this disease that began a few decades ago. Reading the rest of this thread, and knowing the broad scientific consensus, it is clear that one thing NOT responsible is vaccination. I could make a better argument that an increase in global carbon dioxide, or in cell phone use, or in the grey squirrel population (none of which have been tested in regard to autism), is responsible than the increase in vaccinations (which has been tested and eliminated as a cause). CM, if you care about these children, then you should be urging parents to support research into other possible causes, not getting upset about vaccination.

[Travis]

Do people eat more fish now than in the past? Heck who knows what could be correlated with the rise in Autism.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Indeed, CM does like to change the subject. I'm not even certain what the HIV reference is meant to imply. But sticking with the apparent "increase" in autism: clearly a lot of it can be attributed to better diagnosis; perhaps all of it. But let's go with CM's argument that to some extent there is a real increase in this disease that began a few decades ago. Reading the rest of this thread, and knowing the broad scientific consensus, it is clear that one thing NOT responsible is vaccination. I could make a better argument that an increase in global carbon dioxide, or in cell phone use, or in the grey squirrel population (none of which have been tested in regard to autism), is responsible than the increase in vaccinations (which has been tested and eliminated as a cause). CM, if you care about these children, then you should be urging parents to support research into other possible causes, not getting upset about vaccination.

The HIV reference was to show the value of record keeping and the ability to identify virus strains. Science.

BTW Autism is a condition not a disease.

Inherited tendencies toward a condition do not appear world wide.

The only thing/body intrusion all these children have in common in their environment are the vaccines.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

...The only thing/body intrusion all these children have in common in their environment are the vaccines.

Well that and living in a society with trained professionals who are able to diagnose autism, but lets forget all about that.

Did you know that in societies without doctors and modern medicine there will be no diagnosis of cancer.

[Travis]

Clearly the path to immortality is to outlaw doctors.

[fullflavormenthol]

Originally Posted by Travis

Clearly the path to immortality is to outlaw doctors.

Well if they can't diagnose a disease than it doesn't exist....

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The HIV reference was to show the value of record keeping and the ability to identify virus strains. Science.

BTW Autism is a condition not a disease.

Inherited tendencies toward a condition do not appear world wide.

The only thing/body intrusion all these children have in common in their environment are the vaccines.

Wow. There are children that don't drink water? Or eat food? Or you know loads of other common factors.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Travis

Wow. There are children that don't drink water? Or eat food? Or you know loads of other common factors.

You think children getting autism is some sort of joke. Good job.