Merged: Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Giordano]

Clayton,

You're just not getting it. You've obviously never seen a baby with a 104 C fever, let alone convulsions. Almost all the parents here have! I also bet you've never even spent 24 hours taking care of a healthy baby.

You have dreamt-up a completely impossible scenario. If vaccines caused as wide an epidemic of fever-induced convulsions as you propose, every parent would have seen it, every parent would have been horrified and frightened by it, and every parent would have contacted their doctor immediately. Give up- you don't have a clue about this...

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

You are assuming that the child only has a fever when awake? A fever high enough to cause a seizure is not a low grade one, but is likely running at least 104 degrees F.




If a baby has a fever does she not sleep in spite of the fever? If the fever causes a seizure how long will it last? Why wouldn't the baby fuss a little and go back to sleep?

Is the baby conscious during the seizure? What symptoms would make the parents aware the sleeping, now awake, baby had had a seizure?

You really should know the answers to those questions before you parade yourself as an expert.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Clayton,

You're just not getting it. You've obviously never seen a baby with a 104 C fever, let alone convulsions. Almost all the parents here have! I also bet you've never even spent 24 hours taking care of a healthy baby.

You have dreamt-up a completely impossible scenario. If vaccines caused as wide an epidemic of fever-induced convulsions as you propose, every parent would have seen it, every parent would have been horrified and frightened by it, and every parent would have contacted their doctor immediately. Give up- you don't have a clue about this...

The made little sense. It hardly deserves a response.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The made little sense. It hardly deserves a response.

Which consept is hard for you to understand?

That parents watch their children? That infants do not sleep for twelve hours a day in a single block? That fevers apparently only happen in the times when the baby is asleep and unobserved, and leaves no noticible symptoms after the fit?

That the sheer numbers of fevers and fits you propose based on this being a common response to immunisation would mean that the chances of the majority of fits going unobserved is pretty much an impossibility.

None of that makes any sense to you at all?

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The made little sense. It hardly deserves a response.

Translation: I have painted myself into a corner and have no hope for rescue.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The made little sense.

The irony is strong with this one.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

It hardly deserves a response.

Because you have none.

I have two kids, and the frequency of our appearance at A&E is factual evidence of the reality of responsible parents doing what must be done as a responsible parent.

How was that detected? Simple. You listen to the monitor, or you take a sick child into your bed at night, or you observe them in the daytime.

Parents are not stupid.

You are clearly not a parent.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The made little sense. It hardly deserves a response.

Yet, you made one.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by abaddon

The irony is strong with this one.


Because you have none.

I have two kids, and the frequency of our appearance at A&E is factual evidence of the reality of responsible parents doing what must be done as a responsible parent.

How was that detected? Simple. You listen to the monitor, or you take a sick child into your bed at night, or you observe them in the daytime.

Parents are not stupid.

You are clearly not a parent.

Parents are not stupid.
And yet when parents report that their children exhibited the permanent symptoms of autism shortly after receiving a MMR vaccine they are not so smart?


A&E?



You are clearly not a parent.

Must have missed my mention that my older son is a special education teacher.

[Clayton Moore]

A&E? Accident and Emergency?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

A&E? Accident and Emergency?

Gosh, did CM finally figure out that most of the world does not live in the US?

Probably not.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

[b]
Must have missed my mention that my older son is a special education teacher.

Hard to find amidst all the uninformed posts you make.

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Parents are not stupid.
And yet when parents report that their children exhibited the permanent symptoms of autism shortly after receiving a MMR vaccine they are not so smart?


A&E?



You are clearly not a parent.

Must have missed my mention that my older son is a special education teacher.

Yes, I didn't notice that, nor did you mention it over the past few posts when I specifically brought the subject up. Sorry.

Honestly, I don't mean to offend you (I'll only mention you haven't been reciprocally so generous in the Holocaust denial thread), but it still doesn't make sense to me... Were you in the military or somehow otherwise not available for childcare (long hours at work, responsible for your own parents, etc.) during periods of your children's early years? Didn't your son (or his younger sibling- he couldn't be your older son without at least one brother-right) ever have a fever? Didn't they have teething pains? A bad cold? Didn't you ever have sleepless nights nursing them during these illnesses?

I still don't see how you, as a parent, can even imagine that kids could go through febrile convulsions and you wouldn't notice. But, maybe your children weren't "fussy." If so, you should know it is rare; most kids sleep fitfully even when they aren't having fits (pun intended).

In any case, you invented out of whole cloth a vaccine-induced epidemic that never occurred and goes against all existing evidence to support your pet theory.

[Tomtomkent]

Parents who correlate autism with MMR are not stupid. They are just provably wrong.

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Parents are not stupid.
And yet when parents report that their children exhibited the permanent symptoms of autism shortly after receiving a MMR vaccine they are not so smart?

I'm certain you have been told before, correlation does not imply causation. It's a well known fact children receive immunizations at the same age they first begin to function socially at a level where autism spectrum disorders (or any mental disorder) would be noticeable.

Quote:

Must have missed my mention that my older son is a special education teacher.

When you tell him your various conspiracy theories, does he laugh at you or is he polite enough to wait till later?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Yes, I didn't notice that, nor did you mention it over the past few posts when I specifically brought the subject up. Sorry.

Honestly, I don't mean to offend you (I'll only mention you haven't been reciprocally so generous in the Holocaust denial thread), but it still doesn't make sense to me... Were you in the military or somehow otherwise not available for childcare (long hours at work, responsible for your own parents, etc.) during periods of your children's early years? Didn't your son (or his younger sibling- he couldn't be your older son without at least one brother-right) ever have a fever? Didn't they have teething pains? A bad cold? Didn't you ever have sleepless nights nursing them during these illnesses?

I still don't see how you, as a parent, can even imagine that kids could go through febrile convulsions and you wouldn't notice. But, maybe your children weren't "fussy." If so, you should know it is rare; most kids sleep fitfully even when they aren't having fits (pun intended).

In any case, you invented out of whole cloth a vaccine-induced epidemic that never occurred and goes against all existing evidence to support your pet theory.

Of course they had fevers. But you jump around as if seizures were normal happenstance or that they left some sort of detectable residue.

Have you read that a common after affect of a vaccine is a fever?

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Of course they had fevers. But you jump around as if seizures were normal happenstance or that they left some sort of detectable residue.

Have you read that a common after affect of a vaccine is a fever?

Nobody has suggested anything of the kind. Everybody is giving you good reasons why your claim that somewhere in the region of 50% would go undeteced, is utter bunk of the stupidest kind.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Robrob

I'm certain you have been told before, correlation does not imply causation. It's a well known fact children receive immunizations at the same age they first begin to function socially at a level where autism spectrum disorders (or any mental disorder) would be noticeable.




When you tell him your various conspiracy theories, does he laugh at you or is he polite enough to wait till later?

Most people don't take the time to question anything they are told by the media and it's corporate network.

How many times have you heard "he's the doctor?"

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Nobody has suggested anything of the kind. Everybody is giving you good reasons why your claim that somewhere in the region of 50% would go undeteced, is utter bunk of the stupidest kind.

If your child has a fever, is sleeping and has a febrile seizure, how would you know he had a seizure if you didn't witness it?

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

If your child has a fever, is sleeping and has a febrile seizure, how would you know he had a seizure if you didn't witness it?

Given that children spend far less than 50% of their time unobserved, how do they know to only have seizures when no parent is going to be around to see or hear?

Children do not sleep when you sleep, to your pattern. The majority of their sleeping time is observed, by parents keeping an eye on them. Children who are showing other symptoms sleep in the same room. If the kid has a siezure and thrashes around, chokes, or makes other noises, the parents either hear it in the room or on the monitor.

Why do you assume there would be no other symptoms that would cause the condition to be reported?

On no level does your supposition make any sense unless you are apparently accussing all parents of your own level of ineptitude.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Most people don't take the time to question anything they are told by the media and it's corporate network.

How many times have you heard "he's the doctor?"

Which has no implication on your false correlation.

[Clayton Moore]

Giordano, why would non related 1 1/2 year old children become autistic over night worldwide? What would be the common denominator?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Given that children spend far less than 50% of their time unobserved, how do they know to only have seizures when no parent is going to be around to see or hear?

Children do not sleep when you sleep, to your pattern. The majority of their sleeping time is observed, by parents keeping an eye on them. Children who are showing other symptoms sleep in the same room. If the kid has a siezure and thrashes around, chokes, or makes other noises, the parents either hear it in the room or on the monitor.

Why do you assume there would be no other symptoms that would cause the condition to be reported?

On no level does your supposition make any sense unless you are apparently accussing all parents of your own level of ineptitude.

You need to read your posts.

how do they know to only have seizures when no parent is going to be around to see or hear?

??
I never said anything close to that.


Why do you assume there would be no other symptoms that would cause the condition to be reported?

I asked you

Quote:

If your child has a fever, is sleeping and has a febrile seizure, how would you know he had a seizure if you didn't witness it?

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Giordano, why would non related 1 1/2 year old children become autistic over night worldwide?

.
Which night was that?

Where is your *proof* that this happened "overnight"?
.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

What would be the common denominator?

.
Risk factors include genetics, prenatal and perinatal factors (such as meconium in the amniotic fluid) and neuroanatomical abnormalities (esp. of the frontal and temporal lobes).

Your turn: Why did the diagnostic rate for ASD continue to rise in the UK after 1998 when the innoculation reate dropped from ~92% to below 80%? In Japan, MMR use has been discontinued altogether since 1992, and yet diagnostic rates there continue to rise as well.
.

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Hard to find amidst all the uninformed posts you make.

Of course given his other areas of interests one must take the claim about his son with a grain of salt.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

You need to read your posts.

how do they know to only have seizures when no parent is going to be around to see or hear?

You are assuming the requirement of proof. Where's your evidence?

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I never said anything close to that.

Yup, you did.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

Why do you assume there would be no other symptoms that would cause the condition to be reported?

Because I have two children and I am sensitive to their troubles.

Originally Posted by Justinian2

I asked you

Yet presented no answer.

[excaza]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

What would be the common denominator?

How many times are you going to keep asking this? Until someone says vaccines?

[beren]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Giordano, why would non related 1 1/2 year old children become autistic over night worldwide? What would be the common denominator?

The common denominator is being 1 1/2. Look, it is right there in your post.

As for "over night" that is a lie.

[Tomtomkent]

It is a correlation to the mmr jab. The same correlation could be made to a change of diet, sleeping habits, or spending more time with other kids.

There is no evidence to support the link to MMR. The only peer review study to claim this was a stinking heap of poop that relied on falsified data.

But why bother saying that. This is a guy who is apparently aware of how many seizures kids have had, which have gone unreported because nobody was aware of them.

So... er... whats the evidence they happened if nobody noticed them?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

It is a correlation to the mmr jab. The same correlation could be made to a change of diet, sleeping habits, or spending more time with other kids.

There is no evidence to support the link to MMR. The only peer review study to claim this was a stinking heap of poop that relied on falsified data.

But why bother saying that. This is a guy who is apparently aware of how many seizures kids have had, which have gone unreported because nobody was aware of them.

So... er... whats the evidence they happened if nobody noticed them?

I asked you

Quote:

Quote:
If your child has a fever, is sleeping and has a febrile seizure, how would you know he had a seizure if you didn't witness it?

I don't know of any. That was the point of my asking you.

Quote:

But why bother saying that. This is a guy who is apparently aware of how many seizures kids have had, which have gone unreported because nobody was aware of them.

I am aware that febrile seizures are caused by fevers and don't necessarily occur when parents are watching their child.

It's like I'm hearing the French are coming the French are coming.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I don't know of any. That was the point of my asking you.

So you are suggesting an amount of events have occured, on the precept that NOBODY CAN POSSIBLY KNOW, despite:
a) Parenting habits of most families making this incredibly unlikely,
b) You having no evidence anywhere near the estimated number of events having occured.

and best of all:
c) There not being any possibility of evidence, because nobody would be aware of it having happened.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I am aware that febrile seizures are caused by fevers and don't necessarily occur when parents are watching their child.
.

Yet somehow, with out the seizures leaving any trace or other symptom, you know how many have gone unobserved, undetected and unreported? How? Does your magic 8Ball give you the information?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

So you are suggesting an amount of events have occured, on the precept that NOBODY CAN POSSIBLY KNOW, despite:
a) Parenting habits of most families making this incredibly unlikely,
b) You having no evidence anywhere near the estimated number of events having occured.

and best of all:
c) There not being any possibility of evidence, because nobody would be aware of it having happened.



Yet somehow, with out the seizures leaving any trace or other symptom, you know how many have gone unobserved, undetected and unreported? How? Does your magic 8Ball give you the information?

I know that there are 24 hours in a day and fevers don't tell time. Nor do febrile seizures.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I know that there are 24 hours in a day and fevers don't tell time. Nor do febrile seizures.

So how can you assume they happen when there is nobody around to witness them? Let alone make a claim of how many have happened, when, by your own description, nobody would be aware that they have happened?

Why would it matter what time as the majority of modern parents pay attention to a child showing other symptoms and would maximise their chances of becoming aware?

You have plucked an estimate of 50% from the air, and have no way of justifying it.

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I know that there are 24 hours in a day and fevers don't tell time. Nor do febrile seizures.

That would be the imaginary seizures no one saw or recorded but you "know" are responsible for your CT claims?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Do you think a parent wouldn't notice their child's legs twitching, their eyes opening, their breathing becoming irregular, vomiting and foaming at the mouth as they "sleep?"

I have to ask you again: have you ever had children yourself? I ask because parents become extremely attuned to their child's normal behavior, awake and asleep, and you or your spouse are typically within 20 feet of the child for most of the first 5 years of their life. You can recognize your own child's cry, and it will immediately wake you up. It took me years after my own children grew up to sleep soundly again. And you expect parents to routinely not notice the seizures you describe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Febrile_seizure




Causes

Quote:

The direct cause of a febrile seizure is not known; however, it is normally precipitated by a recent upper respiratory infection or gastroenteritis. A febrile seizure is the effect of a sudden rise in temperature (>39°C/102°F) rather than a fever that has been present for a prolonged length of time.[2] As well as this, parents caring for children who may be febrile, wrap them up in warm blankets in an attempt to comfort the child, unknowingly increasing their fever and therefore the problem.

Febrile seizures occurring in children between the ages of 6 months and about 6 years can be due to a hypersensitive hypothalamus in the brain. The hypothalamus is responsible for homeostatic core temperature regulation, (amongst other factors) and in younger children it is still a developing portion of the brain, meaning it is susceptible to hypersensitive reactions to slight raises in body temperature.

Febrile seizures represent the meeting point between a low seizure threshold (genetically and age-determined; some children have a greater tendency to have seizures under certain circumstances) and a trigger, which is fever. The genetic causes of febrile seizures are still being researched. Some mutations that cause a neuronal hyperexcitability (and could be responsible for febrile seizures) have already been discovered.

Symptoms

Quote:

During simple febrile seizures, the body will become stiff and the arms and legs will begin twitching. The patient loses consciousness, although their eyes remain open. Breathing can be irregular. They may become incontinent (wet or soil themselves); they may also vomit or have increased secretions (foam at the mouth). The seizure normally lasts for less than five minutes.

May in this instance means may or may not.

Can in this instance means may or may not.



A febrile seizure is the effect of a sudden rise in temperature (>39°C/102°F) rather than a fever that has been present for a prolonged length of time.

Kinda looks like a sudden rise in temperature doesn't jive with a concerned parent on high alert.

[Clayton Moore]

It will be difficult to refute this.

http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=29...943967096BFDA0


http://gdsajj.wordpress.com/2011/01/...retract-story/

January 30, 2011
Dr. Wakefield Demands British Medical Journal Retract Report.

Quote:

Filed under: HOME — nwqfk @ 3:15 p01
Tags: dr. andrew wakefield vindicated, Dr. Wakefield Autism, Dr. Wakefield Fraud, Dr. Wakefield retraction, Dr. Wakefield vaccines, Dr. Wakefield verdict, Dr. Wakefild case, Dr. Wakefiled Lancet, Dr.Wakefield Study

Dr. Wakefield Demands British Medical Journal Retract Story. Documents prove innocence from allegations of vaccine autism data fraud. SEE VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH DR. WAKEFIELD BELOW.

I have but one question for the pro vaccine individuals out there who come to read these findings.
Why does something like this involve NOT A DRUG BUT A VACCINE? Why is it ALWAYS vaccines that are in the center of lies and deceit by government, the corporate media and the pharmaceutical companies?
WHY?

Wasn’t it the Lame Stream Corporate Media who said after they burned Dr. Wakefield to the proverbial cross of world exposure that “the vaccine / autism question was over once and for all”? Not only were THEY wrong but, these recent FACTS have opened up an even bigger can of worms for the vaccine pushers.

Bullet Points
1.) Documents Prove Dr. Wakefield’s Innocence / Freelance Journalist’s Guilt.

2.) British Medical Journal Board Member On Board Of the Drug Company That Makes The Very Vaccine in Question.

3.) Freelance Journalist Brian Deer Connected to Rupert Murdock Media Machine. Rupert Murdock Financially Connected To the Vaccine Industry. Please read.

4.) Brian Deer Falsified HIS NAME To Get Access To Grieving Mother Connected To Research Report.

5.) The British Medical Journal DID NOT CHECK BRIAN DEER’S FACTS. WHY?

7.) Dr. Wakefield’s Studies HAVE BEEN REPLICATED in over 30 + government and university studies / field research going all the way back to the 1930′s!

8.) Judge In Wakefield Kangaroo Court Major Stockholder In Company That Made Vaccine. Mouthed Off to The Media… “Vaccines SHOULD BE FORCED ON POPULATION!”

9.) Dr. Wakefield Says Children Will Suffer The Most From This Witch Hunt.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

It will be difficult to refute this.

http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=29...943967096BFDA0


http://gdsajj.wordpress.com/2011/01/...retract-story/

January 30, 2011
Dr. Wakefield Demands British Medical Journal Retract Report.

So, what's happened in the 11 months since? Has the claim been substantiated?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

It will be difficult to refute this.

http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=29...943967096BFDA0


http://gdsajj.wordpress.com/2011/01/...retract-story/

January 30, 2011
Dr. Wakefield Demands British Medical Journal Retract Report.

http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=29...943967096BFDA0

At 1 hr. 10 minutes some salient facts are provided.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Febrile_seizure




Causes






Symptoms




May in this instance means may or may not.

Can in this instance means may or may not.



A febrile seizure is the effect of a sudden rise in temperature (>39°C/102°F) rather than a fever that has been present for a prolonged length of time.

Kinda looks like a sudden rise in temperature doesn't jive with a concerned parent on high alert.

Clearly you were not a concerned parent, but were more interested in beer and football.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=29...943967096BFDA0

At 1 hr. 10 minutes some salient facts are provided.

Again, it's 11 months old - what has happened since then?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

Again, it's 11 months old - what has happened since then?

You have a PC and a mouse?