Merged: Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Safe-Keeper]

Do you have the entire forum on ignore? Care to address our responses any time soon?

Quote:

Because they're a waste of time.

Every time a CT-er acts this way, I'm just completely stumped as to what their motives are. They have to know they're shooting themselves in the foot, convincing no one. There have to be at least a good deal of them who are not trolls.

Put those two together, and you get... what?

CM, if you're not a troll, what do you hope to accomplish with your behaviour?

[Clayton Moore]

AUTISM AND VACCINES AROUND THE WORLD: Vaccine Schedules, Autism Rates, and Under 5 Mortality. Generation Rescue, Inc. April 2009.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...irGYyrTV2S0WgA

And yet two liars discuss in January 2011.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40930256...accine-autism/

[Clayton Moore]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40930256...accine-autism/

Bowel disease?

[Safe-Keeper]

Troll, then. Also:

Quote:

Bwahahahaha! You haven't read your own link!

"However, the mainstream medical and scientific communities have consistently found no link between routine childhood vaccines and autism."

I love it when this happens .

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/ne...ross-the-globe

Quote:

These low rates are likely to be the result of the methods used, experts say.

You really should read your sources, to avoid looking so much like a fool.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

allow me to describe the effects of cancer treatment...

Thanks for sharing your experience. I only hope that that people take it to heart!

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Because they're a waste of time.

Do you mean you never even bothered to look?
I'd have thought that Minnesota link was well worth reading.
Especially given the parameters of the studies.
I read and watch eveything you post, CM.
I'm sorry you don't feel the need to accord me the same treatment.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://sfari.org/news-and-opinion/ne...ross-the-globe

That's from 2009. Things have moved along since then, as my links showed.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

AUTISM AND VACCINES AROUND THE WORLD: Vaccine Schedules, Autism Rates, and Under 5 Mortality. Generation Rescue, Inc. April 2009.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...irGYyrTV2S0WgA

And yet two liars discuss in January 2011.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40930256...accine-autism/

Again, this old stuff.

Wakefield again? After the link I posted about Wakefield?
I'm surprised, CM. This comes from not reading others' sources of information.

I can't help noticing you haven't addressed the issues with your wiki link.

Vaccinations and autism are two very serious subjects.
I feel they merit our taking the trouble to read the latest in their research.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Split from the "what do you guys believe?" thread here.

Posted By:LashL

The proof of the pudding that there are conspiracies at high levels of society is media's insistence that there are NONE.

Let's see. Big pharma and the mainstream media insist vaccines are absolutely safe but close to NONE of the vaccines are tested with a control group. They have convinced much of the American public that questioning the safety of vaccines is criminal.

Yet commercial after commercial airs up front and personal that if you've taken DRUG X, Y, or Z contact my law firm. Now you know those drugs, I think ZOLOFT is the star of the newer ripe for litigation drugs, were supposed to be tested with a control group! What happened.

And the media pretty much crucifies anyone who dares suggest a link between autism and vaccines. Why would the media trust and speak out for an industry/community with such a poor drug testing track record?

http://www.aapsonline.org/testimony/mandvac.htm

Quote:

The vaccine approval process has also been contaminated by flawed or incomplete clinical trials, and government officials have chosen to ignore negative results. For example, the CDC was forced to withdraw its recommendation of the rotavirus vaccine within one year of approval. Yet public documents obtained by AAPS show that the CDC was aware of alarmingly high intussuception rates months before the vaccine was approved and recommended.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotavirus_vaccine

Quote:

In 1998 a rotavirus vaccine (RotaShield, by Wyeth) was licensed for use in the United States. Clinical trials in the United States, Finland, and Venezuela had found it to be 80 to 100% effective at preventing severe diarrhea caused by rotavirus A, and researchers had detected no statistically significant serious adverse effects. The manufacturer of the vaccine, however, withdrew it from the market in 1999, after it was discovered that the vaccine may have contributed to an increased risk for intussusception, or bowel obstruction, in one of every 12,000 vaccinated infants. The experience provoked debate about the relative risks and benefits of a rotavirus vaccine.[9]

Sounds like the CDC violated the trust of the parents of infants.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.aapsonline.org/testimony/mandvac.htm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotavirus_vaccine



Sounds like the CDC violated the trust of the parents of infants.

This has been gone over before.
Surely you understand that the material in that post is out of date, CM.
Please update your information.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by pakeha

That's from 2009. Things have moved along since then, as my links showed.

Yes, the numbers have risen.

How do you rationalize the low numbers of France and Germany?

They culturally stigmatized by autism like the South Koreans?

[Redtail]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Yes, the numbers have risen.

How do you rationalize the low numbers of France and Germany?

They culturally stigmatized by autism like the South Koreans?

What percentage of children in France & Germany vaccinated?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Redtail

What percentage of children in France & Germany vaccinated?

http://ecdc.europa.eu/en/activities/...s/germany.aspx

I've read that vaccines are not mandatory in Germany but that doesn't seem to be true. See above.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...irGYyrTV2S0WgA

Table 2: Number of Mandatory Vaccines and
under 5 Mortality rates for top 30 countries.

United States 36 mandatory vaccines

Germany 22 mandatory vaccines

France 17 mandatory vaccines



Mortality Rates

United States 7.8 mandatory vaccines

Germany 5.4 mandatory vaccines

France 5.2 mandatory vaccines



Mortality Rate Worldwide
Rank

United States 34
France 11
Germany 14


2 of the countries on the list with the lowest mortality rate, Iceland and Sweden with the lowest under 5 mortality rate have the lowest number of mandatory vaccines, 11.

[TSR]

And in every one of the countries listed, the parents put nappies on their babies.

Why aren't you whining about changing *that*?

It's obviously common sense that you need nappies changed, CM...

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Yes, the numbers have risen.

How do you rationalize the low numbers of France and Germany?

They culturally stigmatized by autism like the South Koreans?

I see you still resolutely refuse to read other posters' sources of information.
Why is that, CM?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

...2 of the countries on the list with the lowest mortality rate, Iceland and Sweden with the lowest under 5 mortality rate have the lowest number of mandatory vaccines, 11.

What does this have to do with autism, CM?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by pakeha

I see you still resolutely refuse to read other posters' sources of information.
Why is that, CM?




What does this have to do with autism, CM?

Split Thread: Vaccine/autism CT discussion


It would seem the title would allow the discussion of the overall danger of vaccines since autism and death of children under 5 seem to have a link with the number of mandatory vaccines.

[pakeha]

^
I love the sound of goal-posts shifting...

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...irGYyrTV2S0WgA

Generation Rescue, Jenny McCarthy's autism organization, is dedicated to recovery for children with autism spectrum disorders by providing guidance and ...

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Split Thread: Vaccine/autism CT discussion


It would seem the title would allow the discussion of the overall danger of vaccines since autism and death of children under 5 seem to have a link with the number of mandatory vaccines.

Right, but what does that have to do with the /autism CT part of the thread?

Isn't it amazing... You were asked one thing about kids in Gemany and France. You didn't have an answer, so you roll the goal posts and talk about SOMETHING ELSE in Germany and France. Something else that has nothing to do with the vaccine/autism relationship.

But if you are willing to talk about anything that relates to EITHER vaccines OR autism, why do you think this "growing number" of autistic children you have been unable to cite or offer meaningful evidence for, are not related to the known factors in autism, instead of you imaginary factor?

Why not auto immune response? Viral infection? Genetic Markers? Environmental factors?

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Split Thread: Vaccine/autism CT discussion


It would seem the title would allow the discussion of the overall danger of vaccines since autism and death of children under 5 seem to have a link with the number of mandatory vaccines.

Have you no shame, CM?
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Right, but what does that have to do with the /autism CT part of the thread?

Isn't it amazing... You were asked one thing about kids in Gemany and France. You didn't have an answer, so you roll the goal posts and talk about SOMETHING ELSE in Germany and France. Something else that has nothing to do with the vaccine/autism relationship.

But if you are willing to talk about anything that relates to EITHER vaccines OR autism, why do you think this "growing number" of autistic children you have been unable to cite or offer meaningful evidence for, are not related to the known factors in autism, instead of you imaginary factor?

Why not auto immune response? Viral infection? Genetic Markers? Environmental factors?

You have a freaking mouse. You answer the question about the kids in Gemany and France. I've never noticed you being shy about interjecting your 2 cents.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by pakeha

Have you no shame, CM?
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT

No, CM simply has no ability to actually research any of the crap about which zie is convinced zie is right.

The rest of us, having this ability, can see CM's nappies "arguments" for what they are -- or rather for what they are full of.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

Why not auto immune response? Viral infection? Genetic Markers? Environmental factors?

BTW none of those could have a worldwide impact.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

BTW none of those could have a worldwide impact.

... because?
Setting aside the fact that you are wrong, what about the fact that we *still* don't know most of how viruses do what they do -- they aren't even alive be the usual definition...


TTK didn't mention the nappie factor: why do you continue to ignore it? Do you *want* those kids to die from autism?

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

You have a freaking mouse. You answer the question about the kids in Gemany and France. I've never noticed you being shy about interjecting your 2 cents.

Why is it you ignore posts pertinent to the OP yet go off on tangents about infant mortality?
Yet when called to task on your assumptions, you ignore facts and become snappish and ask posters to do your own work for you.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

You have a freaking mouse. You answer the question about the kids in Gemany and France. I've never noticed you being shy about interjecting your 2 cents.

How would my addressing a question (that is not conflicting with my burden of evidence by the way) make any baring on your quoting the question then posting something else in response instead?


You realise by not addressing data that conflicts with your OP we have no choice but to assume you have no response (and that your OP is therefore shown to be flawed)? Jolly good. That is the stance we shall take.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

BTW none of those could have a worldwide impact.

Oh really?

Why?

Do people elsewhere in the world not have immune responses then? Do their bodies perhaps not produce white blood cells? Do anit-hystomines work differently by your geographical location? Are you ABSOLUTELY sure about that? Perhaps we should check they have eyeballs too. Or tongues. The same goes for genetic markers by the way.

How about viral effects? Do you seem to believe that the viruses connected to autism are not encountered globally? Do you have any data to support this? No? Oh dear.

[Tomblvd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

So you ignore every point in both of my posts?

Really?

What a coward.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

...You realise by not addressing data that conflicts with your OP we have no choice but to assume you have no response (and that your OP is therefore shown to be flawed)? Jolly good. That is the stance we shall take.

Not so fast, Tomtomkent, not so fast.
I'm sure CM will come up with some interesting evidence to back up the Vax-autism link.
Perhaps even something not gleaned from a television commercial.

[Dcdrac]

He does this on his holocasut did not happen thread too, no hard evidence just whacko nonesense

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Who would do this hiding and why?

Follow the money.

Quote:

Vaccine court is the popular term which refers to the Office of Special Masters of the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, which administers a no-fault system for litigating vaccine injury claims. These claims against vaccine manufacturers cannot normally be filed in state or federal civil courts, but instead must be heard in the Court of Claims, sitting without a jury.

Can anyone posting on this thread argue honestly that people like myself are anti vaccine? Isn't it clear that we are anti vaccine overload?

The vaccine industry wants to bundle vaccines into tiny bodies. Wake up.

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Follow the money.

You have no idea and want us to find your proof for you. Got it.

Quote:

Can anyone posting on this thread argue honestly that people like myself are anti vaccine? Isn't it clear that we are anti vaccine overload?

The vaccine industry wants to bundle vaccines into tiny bodies. Wake up.

Yes, people can argue that you are an anti-vaxxer.

You aren't against saturation of certain types of vaccines, but their use, period. Much like on the Holcaust thread you claim not to be a denier, yet question, deny, and gainsay every fact presented by the mysterious, monolithic "Team Holocaust", as you dub them.

But hey, feel free to pretend that you randomly decided to dredge up a post two pages back which you had previously ignored when asked to prove your most recent claim.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Follow the money.



Can anyone posting on this thread argue honestly that people like myself are anti vaccine? Isn't it clear that we are anti vaccine overload?

The vaccine industry wants to bundle vaccines into tiny bodies. Wake up.

Could we get this back on track?
The thread is about the vaccine-autism link.

Your wake up call is completely off-base, CM.
Remember what I posted about India?

[Dcdrac]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Follow the money.



Can anyone posting on this thread argue honestly that people like myself are anti vaccine? Isn't it clear that we are anti vaccine overload?

The vaccine industry wants to bundle vaccines into tiny bodies. Wake up.

MMR has saved thousands of lives, when Wakefireld put out his phoney research uptake dropped there was an increase in measles and mumps in the UK as a result, he did real harm

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

MMR has saved thousands of lives, when Wakefireld put out his phoney research uptake dropped there was an increase in measles and mumps in the UK as a result, he did real harm

So explain the bowel problems associated with autism for us?

Did Wakefield ever say he was against vaccines?

[Dcdrac]

There are no problems associated with MMR and autism, that has been proved time and time again studies pointed out you to you from across the globe you have ignored.

and do not put up another strawman Wakefiled carried out a flawed unethical unsceintfic study that got hammered when it was looked at closely

[Dcdrac]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog...n/mmr_qa.shtml

Is there a link between autism and bowel disease?

There is growing recognition that many autistic people suffer from bowel symptoms that cause very real pain and distress. What is certainly not clear is whether it is the autism that can cause bowel problems or the bowel problems that can help cause autism.

It is known that people with neurological problems, like autism, are particularly likely to experience these gut symptoms. This may be because the brain and the gut are closely connected through the nervous system. Autism involves the incorrect functioning of parts of the brain, and therefore it would not be surprising if this led in some cases to the bowel not functioning correctly.

In addition, the bowel problems may be exacerbated by the autistic behaviour affecting the diet of the person. People with autism can sometimes develop very strong food preferences - such as only eating one type of food, or only food of a certain colour - which can itself produce bowel problems.

It is also inevitable that some people with autism will suffer from bowel diseases such as Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, which can sometimes be very serious. This does not mean that these conditions are linked with autism. It is just that some people will be unfortunate enough to be affected by both, because bowel conditions are found across the population.

The question of whether there are also unusual biological abnormalities in the bowels of some autistic people is one that is currently being investigated. Some researchers claim to have seen unusual immune cell patterns or distinctive microscopic features in the bowel tissue of some autistic patients. Recent work has also suggested that there may be differences in the immune systems of people with autism, and so it might be possible that this could affect the gut. It is not known yet if these differences will be confirmed, and if so, whether they are specific to autism or also found in other conditions.

If a link between such bowel disease and autism were proven it would not in itself support the existence of a link between MMR and autism. If the bowel disease was indeed new and had not existed before the introduction of MMR this might point towards a link. There is no convincing evidence that this is the case. Indeed, researchers have reported finding such bowel problems in autistic children who have never had MMR.

[Dcdrac]

Also consider this

Improved Nutrition Relieves Bowel Problems & Infections

Improving nutrition by use of HCl and an enzyme supplement, and by judicious supplementation of amino acids and other nutrients, relieves bowel problems and overcomes infection.

http://www.autismfile.com/diet-nutri...ems-infections

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

Did Wakefield ever say he was against vaccines?

"I'm not a racist, but..."

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Can anyone posting on this thread argue honestly that people like myself are anti vaccine?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Wake up.

Typical religious zealotry.

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

BTW none of those could have a worldwide impact.

AIDS, last I checked, was a world-wide problem. It started in Africa. Your argument is invalid.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Mudcat

AIDS, last I checked, was a world-wide problem. It started in Africa. Your argument is invalid.

So you think autism is contagious?