Merged: Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

1 in 84?
Think he was lying?

You do realize that little boys are much more vulnerable than little girls.

Hi Clayton,

If you think that you wrote a thoughtful, sensible response to my post, you are wrong. I never even hinted that I thought President Clinton was lying, so why you'd ask that I have no idea. And the non-sequitur about gender; I just have no idea why you'd ask that.

When person after person after person tells you that you are being nonsensical for years and years and years, doesn't it give you just a bit of pause?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by carlitos

Hi Clayton,

If you think that you wrote a thoughtful, sensible response to my post, you are wrong. I never even hinted that I thought President Clinton was lying, so why you'd ask that I have no idea. And the non-sequitur about gender; I just have no idea why you'd ask that.

When person after person after person tells you that you are being nonsensical for years and years and years, doesn't it give you just a bit of pause?

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

Where do I find this monolithic medical science? ''Gobs of whatever''. Sorry, you lost me there, I'm not used to these advanced medical terms. Where did you study immunology?

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

It doesn't make any freaking difference what I don't know about viruses and how the immune system works.

Don't you see the problem here? It does make a huge difference, because you make statements all the time that contradict what is known about viruses and how the immune system works. Why should anyone believe you, over the experts who do understand these things, when based on your statements in your posts, you are clearly wrong in your core premises, you don't understand the basic biology, you misunderstand the documented epidemiology, and as a result you propose causes of autism that the people who do understand these things know are fundamentally impossible.

I know from your prior posts that you worked with (work with?) computers. If someone repeatedly attributed a problem with their Windows OS to a Linux software glitch, and refused to believe you that was not possible, wouldn't you dismiss their judgement? That is what you are doing here.

I'm not suggesting you simply believe me. I'm a biologist, but not an expert immunologist. I'm not asking that you simply defer to "the experts." As I've urged you before, read up on basic biology, on viruses, and on the immune system. After, tell us if you still believe your current theories, and if so, why. Or do you think all the basic biology books are also in on the conspiracy?

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The drug/vaccine industry is playing the same game of lies and deception that big tobacco played decades ago.

I'm demanding to know why medical science can't figure out why millions of toddlers all over the world are relatively suddenly becoming autistic.

Medical science is saying that they can't figure out the cause.
That has to be a lie.

You're a science person. How many relatively recent internal environmental contacts do babies all over the world share?

Medical science is saying that the cause can't be vaccines.
If medical science says it can't figure out the cause how can they rule out something as IN FREAKING VASIVE as vaccines into tiny children?

We've been through this all before. Medical science doesn't understand what causes a lot of diseases. Mental diseases remain among the hardest to understand. Why do you think that medicine must understand autism, and why must it be hiding that knowledge?

And of all the possible causes, vaccination is the one most convincingly shown to not be involved in causing autism. Vaccination is also not invasive: it is the nature way the body protects against disease. Why are you so stuck on this?

You want a relatively recent environmental contact babies have that correlates with autism? How about the suggestion elsewhere on this thread: disposable diapers? Here, look at the recent, dramatic growth in use of disposable absorbent diapers:
http://www.stealingshare.com/media/i...y/102Today.gif

Doesn't that match a lot of the growth of autism? And think about this: the newer absorbent diapers have sodium polyacrylate in them! Think about that! A relatively new chemical, wet and pressed against the sensitive skin of these babies for minutes or hours at a time, perhaps being absorbed! And a similar chemical, acrylamide, is a known neurotoxin. Why aren't you considering that this might be the cause of autism?

To make it clear, I have no reason to think that disposable diapers are a cause of autism or any risk at all. I don't know if it has ever been investigated. But I know that vaccines are not a risk of autism, because they have been thoroughly investigated. Why can't you even consider that there might be another cause?

[Tomtomkent]

So the nub is that Medical Science should, according to Clayton just KNOW why something happens.

How?

What process takes place to establish this, and what time scale SHOULD it take?

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

Here is another example of why it is important to understand basic biology and medicine before making up theories. You inject gobs of whatever into anyone's arm, and it is almost certainly NOT going to end up in the gastrointestinal tract. Almost certainly it will end up in the urine (with very few exceptions).

For the biologists here, you are telling us the problem with our Windows OS is our Linux kernel. It shatters your credibility.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Here is another example of why it is important to understand basic biology and medicine before making up theories. You inject gobs of whatever into anyone's arm, and it is almost certainly NOT going to end up in the gastrointestinal tract. Almost certainly it will end up in the urine (with very few exceptions).

For the biologists here, you are telling us the problem with our Windows OS is our Linux kernel. It shatters your credibility.

You and your high faluting blood stream...

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?...ed=0CC4QgQMwAA

But perhaps you would like to show any evidence you have that ONLY vaccinated childrend develope autism.

Thanks for the link!


Unless there's something more recent that falsifies these conclusions, I reckon this study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.01425.x/full

should put the vaccine-autism link to bed.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

...
Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

Wrong again.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by pakeha

Thanks for the link!


Unless there's something more recent that falsifies these conclusions, I reckon this study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.01425.x/full

should put the vaccine-autism link to bed.



Wrong again.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.01425.x/full

Quote:

Methods:  This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD-10 guidelines.

Results:  The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.

Conclusions:  The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

[Tomtomkent]

Most UNLIKELY?

So the vaccine stopped. Autism spectrum disorders continued to climb. Is that right Clayton?

[dafydd]

Quote:
Methods:  This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD-10 guidelines.

Results:  The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.

Conclusions:  The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.


They tested it on groups of Roman soldiers?

[Tomtomkent]

I love the bit about how withdrawing the vaccine would be unlikely to reduce incidence rates. It REALLY helps Claytons assertions. Perhaps this is Claytons way of admitting his error? It does, after all,directly contradict all his previous posts.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Tomtomkent

I love the bit about how withdrawing the vaccine would be unlikely to reduce incidence rates. It REALLY helps Claytons assertions. Perhaps this is Claytons way of admitting his error? It does, after all,directly contradict all his previous posts.

He probably hasn't noticed, given that he knows zilch about immunology.

[pakeha]

Reading poor old CM's reaction to the study I linked caused a number of reactions.
Yes.
When they subsided it dawned on me just what the source is of the fellow's objection to vaccinations.



No, CM, she's not in charge of the infantile vax programme, I promise you!!!

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by pakeha

Reading poor old CM's reaction to the study I linked caused a number of reactions.
Yes.
When they subsided it dawned on me just what the source is of the fellow's objection to vaccinations.


http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6619/nursejlx.jpg
No, CM, she's not in charge of the infantile vax programme, I promise you!!!

I wonder if CM knows who the character is.

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Giordano

Here is another example of why it is important to understand basic biology and medicine before making up theories. You inject gobs of whatever into anyone's arm, and it is almost certainly NOT going to end up in the gastrointestinal tract. Almost certainly it will end up in the urine (with very few exceptions).

Raise your hand if you're surprised that Clayton Moore skipped over this post without responding.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by carlitos

Raise your hand if you're surprised that Clayton Moore skipped over this post without responding.

We are all suffering from upper arm paralysis at the moment. CM doesn't seem to realize that you have to introduce gobs of whatever into the gastrointestinal tract via the esophagus. I learned that in school.

[Tomblvd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

STUNDIE!

Edited by Tricky:

Edited for civility.

[dafydd]

Edited by Tricky:

Edited for response to modded post.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...5.01425.x/full

What about the bit you did not highlight?

Quote:

and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by abaddon

What about the bit you did not highlight?

Oh the bit he DID was SOOOOOOO good...

[I am Bigfoot]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

You might be interested to know that child murderers antivaxxers have funded studies to prove a link between vaccines and autism. Not only did they fail spectacularly, they've typically failed to even set up a halfway decent experiment.


And they failed to find a link between autism and vaccines.

I'd find you a link, but you'd just ignore it anyways.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by dafydd

Oh yes it does.



Why? And if you have no medical knowledge then how do you know that it is a lie?

The less knowledge, the more certainty.

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

But not, say, the cure for cancer.

Quote:

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

People who would have their pants sued off if someone, anyone, were able to provide a conclusive link. Heck, they might even face charges. Plus private organizations with no vested interest in the matter.

I note that you don't actually say who's funding these studies, because it would mean you have to provide evidence.

Quote:

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

Very scientific.

[ElMondoHummus]

I don't know why you all are ripping on Clayton so much. To me, he's revealed a new way of eating. From now on, I'll just inject gobs of my dinner into my arm, and I'll have total confidence it'll still come out the right place.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

I don't know why you all are ripping on Clayton so much. To me, he's revealed a new way of eating. From now on, I'll just inject gobs of my dinner into my arm, and I'll have total confidence it'll still come out the right place.

My lady friend and I just injected ourselves with a smoked trout and rocket salad. Delicious.

[Giordano]

Clayton,

I assume you've been reading more on biology and on the immune system to clarify your theories about vaccines. If you haven't seen it yet, Wikipedia has an excellent article on immunology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune_system

[CORed]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

Has anyone nominated this for a Stundie yet?

ETA: Somebody has

[TSR]

Originally Posted by CORed

Has anyone nominated this for a Stundie yet?

Yes.

[CORed]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

Think about it. You inject gobs of whatever into a baby's arm. Where's it going to wind up?


gastrointestinal tract

Originally Posted by dafydd

Where do I find this monolithic medical science? ''Gobs of whatever''. Sorry, you lost me there, I'm not used to these advanced medical terms. Where did you study immunology?

The contention that something injected into the arm will end up in the gastrointestinal tract shows a truly monumental ignorance of basic anatomy, too.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by CORed

The contention that something injected into the arm will end up in the gastrointestinal tract shows a truly monumental ignorance of basic anatomy, too.

Edited by jhunter1163:

Edited for Rule 0.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Hey. When the world's Medical science says that they can't figure out the cause of millions of toddlers, world wide, becoming autistic, they're flat out lying.

An interesting claim. You, of course, have some sort of evidence for this ?

Quote:

Who do you think pays for the "It isn't vaccines causing Autism." studies?

Amaze us. Who ?

Quote:

Think about it.

Letting laymen muse about stuff is rarely a recipe for getting to the truth.

Quote:

gastrointestinal tract

And how, may I ask, does it do this; and how is that related to autism ?

It's amazing how little we think about those diseases nowadays, chiefly because vaccination has gotten rid of them, that we're down to blaming it for stuff we don't like. First off, present evidence that autism is caused by vaccines, and second, once you've done that, demonstrate that said cases are worth letting polio and cholera run rampant again.

[000063]

Telling their readers/viewers to "think for themselves" and "learn for themselves" is a common CT trick, and it only works as long as their audience doesn't realize that they are using it as an excuse to not actually present evidence. Clayton uses it more than most, since just about every single claim he makes, ever, turns out to be incorrect.

[Clayton Moore]

I would suggest people talk to the parents of autistic children for whats what with the cause of autism.

And of course think for yourself.

When you see the shills shilling their latest drug cure or vaccine on TV don't you kinda think Snake Oil Salesman?

When they go through at high speed of a list possible contraindications including possible sudden

wait for it

wait for it


DEATH don't you kinda think WTF?


Then you hear another commercial soliciting sick/dying people who took a specific drug or had a specific procedure and offering legal assistance to get you the financial compensation you deserve.

[jaydeehess]

Actually substances in the blood stream that the body finds need to get rid of can take one or both of two routes.
One path is filtering by the glomuari in the kidneys and passing into the urine.
The other route is metabolism in the liver and having byproducts pass along the bile duct to the small intestine

Some things go both ways, caffine for eg is metabolised in the liver but byproducts largely pass back into the blood then are excreted in urine.
Tetracycline is excreted directly in the urine to a small extent but mostly is handled by the liver and passed into the intestines.

However if a substance causes problems with the small intestine or colon one could also expect liver issues and perhaps problems along the biliary tract including the spleen
Substances that are excreted in the urine and are toxic usually cause renal issues For eg tetracycline that is past its "due date" is known to cause Franconi syndrome which selectively causes the nephrons of the kidney to basically plug up and stop allowing reuptake of such things as water, glucose, and potassium back into the bloodstream from the filtrate coming from the glomuari

Alcohol has little effect on the GI tract but can kill the liver which is responsible for turning it back into sugar(despite the fact that the liver is a rarety in that it can regrow damaged tissue, as can the intestinal linings)
Unfortunately no kidney tissue ever can regenerate as far as I know.

Diseases that medsci has no idea as to the cause, i can think of one right off the bat; monoclonal gammopathy.
This is the cloning of whole immunoglobulins and often light chain proteins which go into immunoglobulin creation. These serve no function but do cause problems by building up into amyloid plaques that can block organ function. (and is a precursor to multiple myeloma and a form of luekemia) There is no definitive cause for most cases

I don't think there is a known reason why multiple scerlosis is more common in colder climates either

Odd thing is that there are a multitude of known viral causes of disease and a great deal of medsci research as to the immune system response to many of them which allows that benign versions of viruses or just the surface proteins of them to cause exactly the same immune response as the live virus. An immune system can then be, insome cases, primed for rapid and overwhelming reponse should it be subject to the live virus

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by jaydeehess

Actually substances in the blood stream that the body finds need to get rid of can take one or both of two routes.
One path is filtering by the glomuari in the kidneys and passing into the urine.
The other route is metabolism in the liver and having byproducts pass along the bile duct to the small intestine

Some things go both ways, caffine for eg is metabolised in the liver but byproducts largely pass back into the blood then are excreted in urine.
Tetracycline is excreted directly in the urine to a small extent but mostly is handled by the liver and passed into the intestines.

However if a substance causes problems with the small intestine or colon one could also expect liver issues and perhaps problems along the biliary tract including the spleen
Substances that are excreted in the urine and are toxic usually cause renal issues For eg tetracycline that is past its "due date" is known to cause Franconi syndrome which selectively causes the nephrons of the kidney to basically plug up and stop allowing reuptake of such things as water, glucose, and potassium back into the bloodstream from the filtrate coming from the glomuari

Alcohol has little effect on the GI tract but can kill the liver which is responsible for turning it back into sugar(despite the fact that the liver is a rarety in that it can regrow damaged tissue, as can the intestinal linings)
Unfortunately no kidney tissue ever can regenerate as far as I know.

Diseases that medsci has no idea as to the cause, i can think of one right off the bat; monoclonal gammopathy.
This is the cloning of whole immunoglobulins and often light chain proteins which go into immunoglobulin creation. These serve no function but do cause problems by building up into amyloid plaques that can block organ function. (and is a precursor to multiple myeloma and a form of luekemia) There is no definitive cause for most cases

I don't think there is a known reason why multiple scerlosis is more common in colder climates either

Odd thing is that there are a multitude of known viral causes of disease and a great deal of medsci research as to the immune system response to many of them which allows that benign versions of viruses or just the surface proteins of them to cause exactly the same immune response as the live virus. An immune system can then be, insome cases, primed for rapid and overwhelming reponse should it be subject to the live virus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_...field_response

Quote:

Dr Wakefield said at the time."[44] He said, "If you give three viruses together, three live viruses, then you potentially increase the risk of an adverse event occurring, particularly when one of those viruses influences the immune system in the way that measles does."[42] He suggested parents should opt for single jabs against measles, mumps and rubella, separated by gaps of one year.

http://www.naturalnews.com/035513_An...es_autism.html

Quote:

Dr. Andrew Wakefield reveals real story behind vaccines, autism and more

Tuesday, April 10, 2012 by: NaturalNews

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/3/prweb9262180.htm

Quote:

Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s Co-Author on Controversial Lancet “MMR Paper” Exonerated of All Charges of Professional Misconduct
Prof. John Walker-Smith won his appeal today against the GMC, the UK’s medical regulatory board that had ruled against both him and Andrew Wakefield for their roles in the 1998 Lancet MMR paper, which raised questions about a link to autism. The complete victory means that Walker-Smith has been returned to the status of a fully licensed physician in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vac...8_Lancet_paper

Quote:

Background
Further information: MMR vaccine safety
Concerns about the Urabe strain


The Urabe strain remains in use in a number of countries; MMR with the Urabe strain is much cheaper to manufacture than with the Jeryl Lynn strain,[30] and a strain with higher efficacy along with a somewhat higher rate of mild side effects may still have the advantage of reduced incidence of overall adverse events.[28]
Revaccination campaign

In the wake of measles outbreaks which occurred in England in 1992, and on the basis of analyses of seroepidemiological data combined with mathematical modeling, British Health authorities predicted a major resurgence of measles in school age children. Two strategies were then examined: either to target vaccination at all children without a history of prior measles vaccination or to immunize all children irrespective of vaccination history.[31] I[COLOR="rgb(255, 0, 255)"]n November 1994, the latter option was chosen [/color]and a national measles and rubella vaccination campaign, described as "one of the most ambitious vaccination initiatives that Britain has undertaken" was commenced:[32] within one month, 92% of the 7.1 million schoolchildren in England aged 5–16 years received measles and rubella (MR) vaccine.[33]

The highlighted is medicine?

Quote:

Italy

In 2012 a court in Italy ruled that MMR jabs caused a boy's autism. Substantial damages were also awarded to his parents from the Italian Ministry of Health. The parents are taking the case to a civil court to claim more from the Italian government.[116]

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The highlighted is medicine?

More medicine than Wakefield.

You know he's not allowed to practice medicine, having been found to have:

"<been> paid to conduct the study by solicitors representing parents who believed their children had been harmed by MMR".

Ordered investigations "without the requisite paediatric qualifications" including colonoscopies, colon biopsies and lumbar punctures ("spinal taps") on his research subjects without the approval of his department's ethics board and contrary to the children's clinical interests, when these diagnostic tests were not indicated by the children's symptoms or medical history.

"Act[ed] 'dishonestly and irresponsibly' in failing to disclose ... how patients were recruited for the study".

"Conduct[ed] the study on a basis which was not approved by the hospital's ethics committee."

Purchased blood samples – for £5 each – from children present at his son's birthday party.

Quite the role model you've chosen there, champ.

[000063]

Ironic that the guy he's using as support is exactly the sort of ambulance chaser he was just decrying.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I would suggest people talk to the parents of autistic children for whats what with the cause of autism. ...

Why is it that you want us to get the info from everyone except actual medical and scientific professionals?

And why are you not backing up your "gobs of stuff" comment?

[Mudcat]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I would suggest people talk to the parents of autistic children for whats what with the cause of autism.

Why? These parents are most likely not medical professionals or wiser on how their children are autistic.

Originally Posted by CM

And of course think for yourself.

But only if we're going to agree with you?

Originally Posted by CM

Then you hear another commercial soliciting sick/dying people who took a specific drug or had a specific procedure and offering legal assistance to get you the financial compensation you deserve.

You do realize those are mostly shams, right?