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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 16th May 2011, 10:29 AM   #161
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I recommend THE STRANGE STORY OF THE QUANTUM by
Banesh Hoffmann for those of you who think science/medicine cannot advance via a path of wrong thinking.
Hmmm

"This timeless exploration of the work of the great physicists of the early 20th century employs analogies, examples, and imaginative insights rather than computations to explain the dramatic impact of quantum physics on classical theory. Topics include Pauli's exclusion principle, Schroedinger's wave equation, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and many other concepts. 1959 edition."

All of these things were still developed and eventually tested via the scientific method. More to the point they were developed to solve problems in the field of physics.

Blaming vaccines on austism is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years. Only nowhere near as good.
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:09 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Hmmm

"This timeless exploration of the work of the great physicists of the early 20th century employs analogies, examples, and imaginative insights rather than computations to explain the dramatic impact of quantum physics on classical theory. Topics include Pauli's exclusion principle, Schroedinger's wave equation, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and many other concepts. 1959 edition."

All of these things were still developed and eventually tested via the scientific method. More to the point they were developed to solve problems in the field of physics.

Blaming vaccines on austism is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years. Only nowhere near as good.


Kinda.

The point was, that even though a theory seemed completely logical, the next theory disproved it completely and logically. Again and again. And that's without an obvious profit motive.

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccin...pecial-masters


Blaming autism on vaccines is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years.

Blaming vaccines for austism is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years.

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 16th May 2011 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:35 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Kinda.

The point was, that even though a theory seemed completely logical, the next theory disproved it completely and logically. Again and again. And that's without an obvious profit motive.

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/vaccin...pecial-masters


Blaming autism on vaccines is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years.

Blaming vaccines for austism is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years.
...the hell?

I have no idea what this means.
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:44 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Kinda.

The point was, that even though a theory seemed completely logical, the next theory disproved it completely and logically. Again and again. And that's without an obvious profit motive.
Incorrect. In all cases there was a large an obvious gap or flaw in the present theory that required new ideas and theories to fill the gaps. In you case you already have theories that more than explain the issue and fit the data as well.

And again, you've already had the profit issue explained to you. So stop barking 'profit' with regards to childhood vaccines. The profits just are not there compared to other kinds of medication.

Quote:
You are still grossly misrepresenting that program.

Quote:
Blaming autism on vaccines is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years.

Blaming vaccines for austism is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years.
I don't know what you were trying to prove but all you did is agree with me.
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:50 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
...the hell?

I have no idea what this means.
A combination of bad quoting and further demonstration that he has no idea how science works. Its just another chance for him to bark 'profit! profit!'
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:54 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
A combination of bad quoting and further demonstration that he has no idea how science works. Its just another chance for him to bark 'profit! profit!'
Quote:
Blaming vaccines on austism is more along the lines of the thinking that gave us 'ether' for so many years. Only nowhere near as good.
Blaming vaccines on autism is butt backwards.
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Old 16th May 2011, 12:26 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Blaming vaccines on autism is butt backwards.
Yes. I made a mistake there. I think you actually added to the confusion with your attempt at correction.
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Old 16th May 2011, 04:03 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Well, Clayton is also a Holocaust denier, so perhaps his comment makes sense after all when placed against that context...
I'm curious why he hasn't responded to my pointing out that Wakefield patented a single dose measles vaccine........
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Old 16th May 2011, 05:03 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Well, Clayton is also a Holocaust denier, so perhaps his comment makes sense after all when placed against that context...
He's a 9/11 truther too. A trifecta!

Any bets on whether he'd like to see Obama's birth certificate?
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Old 16th May 2011, 06:12 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Walter Ego View Post
He's a 9/11 truther too. A trifecta!

Any bets on whether he'd like to see Obama's birth certificate?
Let's see the scum I'm against include neoconservatives, Cheney, big Pharma, and liars like Elie Wiesel. I'm sure they're atop your BFF bucket list.
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Old 16th May 2011, 08:54 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Let's see the scum I'm against include neoconservatives, Cheney, big Pharma, and liars like Elie Wiesel. I'm sure they're atop your BFF bucket list.

You forgot to mention the most important thing you're against: reality.
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Old 16th May 2011, 11:09 PM   #172
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If you're against big pharma you are essentially against modern medicine. What type of medicine do you approve of Clayton?
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Old 17th May 2011, 01:38 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
I'm curious why he hasn't responded to my pointing out that Wakefield patented a single dose measles vaccine........
Did you mention that this means that Wakefield stands to gain financially from any perception that the MMR vaccine is unsafe? Or does the profit motive only serve to discredit the actions of whoever Clayton Moore wants it to discredit, for some reason?

Dave
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Old 17th May 2011, 02:00 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Let's see the scum I'm against include neoconservatives, Cheney, big Pharma, and liars like Elie Wiesel. I'm sure they're atop your BFF bucket list.
OK, now he is a birther, a truther, a holocaust denier, a big pharma conspiracist, a neocon nutbar, is there a CT he doesn't believe?

Hey, Clayton, what about chemtrails? Can we add that to your gullibility index?
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Old 17th May 2011, 09:25 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
OK, now he is a birther, a truther, a holocaust denier, a big pharma conspiracist, a neocon nutbar, is there a CT he doesn't believe?

Hey, Clayton, what about chemtrails? Can we add that to your gullibility index?
Birther? Evidence?

So I guess you think

Quote:
Let's see the scum I'm against include neoconservatives, Cheney, big Pharma, and liars like Elie Wiesel. I'm sure they're atop your BFF bucket list.
all of those people are solid citizens?
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Old 17th May 2011, 09:29 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So I guess you think all of those people are solid citizens?
Your inability to comprehend, not only the points of view of others, but the feasibility of anyone having a different point of view to yours, makes it rather ironic that you're posting on a thread about autism.

Dave
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Old 17th May 2011, 09:29 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Birther? Evidence?
You're right, "birther" isn't wacko enough.

How about reptilian overlords living in the center of the earth?

Just curious as to where you would draw the line.
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Old 17th May 2011, 09:35 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Your inability to comprehend, not only the points of view of others, but the feasibility of anyone having a different point of view to yours, makes it rather ironic that you're posting on a thread about autism.

Dave
Yeah, I nominated this...
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Old 17th May 2011, 09:15 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Your inability to comprehend, not only the points of view of others, but the feasibility of anyone having a different point of view to yours, makes it rather ironic that you're posting on a thread about autism.

Dave
You're the one who would put children at risk by allowing them 22 shots before the age of 2!!!

Do you think that that 22 shot sequence was ever studied?

What child would encounter those 22 diseases before the age of 2?
Or a lifetime? How many of those diseases are life threatening?

Quote:
Birth

* Hep B: Hepatitis B vaccine (HBV); recommended to give the first dose at birth, but may be given at any age for those not previously immunized.

1-2 months

* Hep B: Second dose should be administered 1 to 2 months after the first dose.

2 months

* DTaP: Diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis vaccine
* Hib: Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine
* IPV: Inactivated poliovirus vaccine
* PCV: Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine
* Rota: Rotavirus vaccine

4 months

* DTaP
* Hib
* IPV
* PCV
* Rota

6 months

* DTaP
* Hib
* PCV
* Rota

Continue

6 months and annually

* Seasonal influenza. Beginning in the 2010-2011 flu season, the seasonal influenza vaccine will protect against H1N1 flu, as well as other flu strains.

The vaccine is recommended every year for children older than 6 months. Kids under 9 who get a flu vaccine for the first time will receive it in two separate doses a month apart.

Although children 6 months to 5 years old are still considered the group of kids who need the flu vaccine the most, updated guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) now recommend that all older kids and teens get it, too (as long as enough is available).

It's especially important for high-risk kids to be vaccinated. High-risk groups include, but aren't limited to, kids with asthma, heart problems, sickle cell anemia, diabetes, or human immunodeficiency virus (HIV).

It can take up to 2 weeks after the shot is given for the body to build up immunity against the flu.

6-18 months

* Hep B
* IPV

12-15 months

* Hib
* MMR: Measles, mumps, and rubella (German measles) vaccine
* PCV
* Varicella (chickenpox) vaccine

12-23 months

* Hep A: Hepatitis A vaccine; given as two shots at least 6 months apart

15-18 months

* DTaP

4-6 years

* DTaP
* MMR
* IPV
* Varicella

11-12 years

* HPV: Human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine, given as 3 shots over 6 months. It's recommended for girls to prevent genital warts and cervical cancers. The vaccine also may be given to boys to prevent genital warts.
* Tdap: Tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis booster
* MCV: Meningitis vaccine; with a booster dose at age
http://kidshealth.org/parent/growth/...on_chart.html#
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Old 17th May 2011, 10:34 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So I guess you think

Quote:
Let's see the scum I'm against include neoconservatives, Cheney, big Pharma, and liars like Elie Wiesel. I'm sure they're atop your BFF bucket list.
all of those people are solid citizens?
Please explain how any of those on your list are not solid citizens. Why is Big Pharma not a solid citizen for example?
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Old 17th May 2011, 10:55 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Please explain how any of those on your list are not solid citizens. Why is Big Pharma not a solid citizen for example?
Political influence in the U.S.

[quote]The top twenty pharmaceutical companies and their two trade groups, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) and Biotechnology Industry Organization, lobbied on at least 1,600 pieces of legislation between 1998 and 2004. According to the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics, pharmaceutical companies spent $900 million on lobbying between 1998 and 2005, more than any other industry. During the same period, they donated $89.9 million to federal candidates and political parties, giving approximately three times as much to Republicans as to Democrats.[1] According to the Center for Public Integrity, from January 2005 through June 2006 alone, the pharmaceutical industry spent approximately $182 million on Federal lobbying.[2] The industry has 1,274 registered lobbyists in Washington D.C. [3]

...

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Posted By:LashL


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_lobby

Is that enough Travis?

Last edited by LashL; 18th May 2011 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 17th May 2011, 10:59 PM   #182
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If we declare every industry that spends money on lobbying to be "evil" pretty much everything will be "evil."

So no, that's not enough.
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Old 17th May 2011, 11:14 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If we declare every industry that spends money on lobbying to be "evil" pretty much everything will be "evil."

So no, that's not enough.
Yeah that's a good interpretation of the link I posted.
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Old 18th May 2011, 01:03 AM   #184
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Okay......so lobbying = evil?
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Old 18th May 2011, 01:24 AM   #185
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Using anti-vaxxer standard data analysis methods, I have come to the following conclusion:

Autism rates increased after the removal of thimiserol from children's vaccines, therefore thimiserol must prevent autism in vaccinated children.
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Old 18th May 2011, 03:58 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Alareth View Post
Using anti-vaxxer standard data analysis methods, I have come to the following conclusion:

Autism rates increased after the removal of thimiserol from children's vaccines, therefore thimiserol must prevent autism in vaccinated children.
Keep that up and you'll never eat with grownups on Thanksgiving.

Do you really think decisions concerning the health of Americans should be dictated by lobbyists whose concern is profit. Is there a counterbalancing patient lobby?
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Old 18th May 2011, 04:35 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Do you really think decisions concerning the health of Americans should be dictated by lobbyists whose concern is profit.
So you've switched your stance from 'vaccines are evil because they cause autism' to 'vaccines are evil because a company wants to make a profit.'

While living in the idealist universe you've concocted in your head would be wonderful, we live in a capitalist society. Almost every company is motivated by profit. This is not enough reason to dismiss a product, especially one that makes essentially nothing when compared to major medications like say...Viagra. I don't even think it's possible to run a pharmaceutical company without seeking to make profits, how else are you going to fund research and development costs?

Quote:
Is there a counterbalancing patient lobby?
People dying/not dying tends to make a very strong counterbalance to pharmaceutical lobbying. And then there's you know...the FDA?
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Old 18th May 2011, 04:41 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Do you really think decisions concerning the health of Americans should be dictated by lobbyists whose concern is profit. Is there a counterbalancing patient lobby?
I'm in Britain, where decisions on healthcare provision are made by NICE, a body set up to provide cost-effectiveness in the NHS; in other words, to minimise the cost of healthcare, an aim diametrically opposed to the maximising of profit to pharmaceutical companies. And yet NICE backs MMR vaccination. It's almost as if it had nothing to do with the profits of pharmaceutical companies, and was only a matter of what's the most effective way of maximising the health of the population. But that can't really be true, can it?

Dave
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Old 18th May 2011, 04:50 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Is there a counterbalancing patient lobby?
There's no money in being a patient.

But yes, consumer advocate groups do have lobbyists as well.
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Old 18th May 2011, 05:29 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
So you've switched your stance from 'vaccines are evil because they cause autism' to 'vaccines are evil because a company wants to make a profit.' Decisions concerning the health of Americans isn't dictated by lobbyists, it's dictated by experimentation.

While living in the idealist universe you've concocted in your head would be wonderful, we live in a capitalist society. Almost every company is motivated by profit. This is not enough reason to dismiss a product, especially one that makes essentially nothing when compared to major medications like say...Viagra. I don't even think it's possible to run a pharmaceutical company without seeking to make profits, how else are you going to fund research and development costs?


People dying/not dying tends to make a very strong counterbalance to pharmaceutical lobbying. And then there's you know...the FDA?
Try and focus. The reason there over a thousand lobbyists isn't because isn't because their widgit is better than the other widgit. They are telling the government what should be mandatory. They are convincing the FDA that the drugs and vaccines they sell are safe. They even convinced the government to set up a court that was/is the only place persons can take legal action against vaccine makers.

4 or 5 times a day I see law firms virtually ambulance chase on TV asking for perspective victims of specific drugs that, of course, have been approved by the FDA per documentation from big pharma. I live in a small town and I can walk, less than a mile to THREE CVS drug marts and a Rite Aid. Stretch it to two miles and 2 Wallgreens and 2 or 3 others kick in.


Quote:
The top twenty pharmaceutical companies and their two trade groups, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) and Biotechnology Industry Organization, lobbied on at least 1,600 pieces of legislation between 1998 and 2004. According to the non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics, pharmaceutical companies spent $900 million on lobbying between 1998 and 2005, more than any other industry. During the same period, they donated $89.9 million to federal candidates and political parties, giving approximately three times as much to Republicans as to Democrats.[1] According to the Center for Public Integrity, from January 2005 through June 2006 alone, the pharmaceutical industry spent approximately $182 million on Federal lobbying.[2] The industry has 1,274 registered lobbyists in Washington D.C. [3]

...
Mod WarningSnipped for compliance with Rule 4. Do not copy and paste large tracts of text from other sources. Instead, just cite a short quote and post a link to the other source.
Posted By:LashL


Realizing of course that the Democrats get money, just not as much. They still owe Big Pharma.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceutical_lobby

Last edited by LashL; 18th May 2011 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 18th May 2011, 05:36 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
4 or 5 times a day I see law firms virtually ambulance chase on TV asking for perspective victims of specific drugs that, of course, have been approved by the FDA per documentation from big pharma.
Given the fact that every human being has a slightly different physiology, it's not surprising that some people have an adverse reaction to any given drug. Add to that the willingness to sue based on post hoc, propter ergo hoc reasoning in an extremely litigious society, and the lawsuits need no explanation.

There are risks to taking perscription medication. In general, the risk isn't quite as high as in crossing the street, but it is slightly more than in drinking a glass of water.

It's in the best interests of lawyers and the media to exaggerate these risks.
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Old 18th May 2011, 05:42 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Try and focus. The reason there over a thousand lobbyists isn't because isn't because their widgit is better than the other widgit. They are telling the government what should be mandatory.
And yet vaccines are not mandatory.

Quote:
They are convincing the FDA that the drugs and vaccines they sell are safe.
Actually, no. They have to go through a lot of trials and work to convince the FDA that a drug is safe. It has been argued that the FDA's requirements are so stringent that if asprin were developed today it would never make it to the market.

Quote:
They even convinced the government to set up a court that was/is the only place persons can take legal action against vaccine makers.
And the government thought it was a good idea because the lawsuit happy nature of people vs. the low profitability of vaccines would mean that the pharma companies would just drop the whole line - and then we'd have a problem.

Quote:
4 or 5 times a day I see law firms virtually ambulance chase on TV asking for perspective victims of specific drugs that, of course, have been approved by the FDA per documentation from big pharma.
The FDA's testing is not perfect, and a lot of drugs may turn out to have long-term effects. Go to Europe some time and look at their drug approval standards. A few greedy lawyers and a couple of drugs that turned out to have long term side effects in a tiny fraction of the population does not mean vaccines are causing autism.

Quote:
I live in a small town and I can walk, less than a mile to THREE CVS drug marts and a Rite Aid. Stretch it to two miles and 2 Wallgreens and 2 or 3 others kick in.
This is the USA, our drug stores sell a lot of things besides prescription and over-the-counter drugs.
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Old 18th May 2011, 05:55 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Try and focus.
So you tell me to focus, then talk about 3 different topics?

Quote:
The reason there over a thousand lobbyists isn't because isn't because their widgit is better than the other widgit. They are telling the government what should be mandatory. They are convincing the FDA that the drugs and vaccines they sell are safe.
Vaccines aren't mandatory.

Quote:
They even convinced the government to set up a court that was/is the only place persons can take legal action against vaccine makers.
Do you actually understand why this was set up? Or are you just going to attribute it to some massive conspiracy to make all Americans autistic?

Quote:
4 or 5 times a day I see law firms virtually ambulance chase on TV asking for perspective victims of specific drugs that, of course, have been approved by the FDA per documentation from big pharma.
Since every person is different, it's almost impossible not to eventually have someone who has an adverse reaction to a drug. This is why all medications have documented side effects. How many of those ambulance chasers actually win anything?

Quote:
I live in a small town and I can walk, less than a mile to THREE CVS drug marts and a Rite Aid. Stretch it to two miles and 2 Wallgreens and 2 or 3 others kick in.
Congratulations? What does that have to do with...anything?
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Old 18th May 2011, 06:00 AM   #194
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If the FDA is really in their pocket then why does the FDA refuse to license so many of the expensive drugs they produce?

You do realize that one of the reasons that prescriptions cost a lot of money is because the companies have to try and recoup all the money they spend on drugs the FDA refuses to approve.
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Old 18th May 2011, 07:52 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Congratulations? What does that have to do with...anything?
It means he only has to walk a mile to get a 12 pack of sodas or some shampoo.
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Old 18th May 2011, 09:35 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Congratulations? What does that have to do with...anything?
He just thought it was a good opportunity to brag about his walking skills.
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Old 19th May 2011, 05:18 PM   #197
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I think we scared him away!
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Old 19th May 2011, 05:42 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Vaccines aren't mandatory.
They are if you want your child to attend school.
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Old 19th May 2011, 05:51 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They are if you want your child to attend school.
Seems reasonable to me, since most schools would want to reduce any potential risk of bringing together hundreds, if not thousands, of children together in a relatively small space.

The alternative is homeschooling, which as I understand it, is still a perfectly viable and legal alternative in the US.
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Old 19th May 2011, 07:03 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They are if you want your child to attend school.
You want to enjoy the benefits of schools, you have to take some basic precautions to prevent outbreaks and epidemics

BTW, thanks for the outbreaks.
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