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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 19th May 2011, 10:47 PM   #201
Travis
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Clayton what does the FDA do that makes you think they are in the pocket of Big Pharma? And I mean what actions by the FDA makes you think this?
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:06 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They are if you want your child to attend school.
That's bullplop. I recall a few years ago having a debate with my wife about vaccines for our kids. We had to choose whether to accept or decline the vaccine. point being we had to CHOOSE whether or not to vaccinate.
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:15 AM   #203
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That's bullplop. I recall a few years ago having a debate with my wife about vaccines for our kids. We had to choose whether to accept or decline the vaccine. point being we had to CHOOSE whether or not to vaccinate.
What does that have to with having to show a record of your child's shots to the school nurse to make sure all the required shots have been received?
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:17 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That's bullplop. I recall a few years ago having a debate with my wife about vaccines for our kids. We had to choose whether to accept or decline the vaccine. point being we had to CHOOSE whether or not to vaccinate.
Care to elucidate on that debate?
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:32 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
What does that have to with having to show a record of your child's shots to the school nurse to make sure all the required shots have been received?
Ah, you think there is nothing outside the US of everything.
One of those. Right.
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:38 AM   #206
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*cough*
Originally Posted by travis View Post
clayton what does the fda do that makes you think they are in the pocket of big pharma? And i mean what actions by the fda makes you think this?
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:39 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Care to elucidate on that debate?
Sure. The myth was at the time that the MMR vaccine combo could cause autism. The debate was do it or not. Said debate was carried in favour of vaccination by science, and also by the vacuous anti-vax arguments. So my two beautiful daughters were vaccinated with, I believe, a 5 fold vaccine.
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Old 20th May 2011, 02:34 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Ah, you think there is nothing outside the US of everything.
One of those. Right.
That's why, I presume, he didn't have anything to say about why NICE recommends MMR vaccination despite their interests being very different to those of the pharmaceutical companies. Since NICE is outside the USA, it doesn't exist.

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Old 20th May 2011, 04:24 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They are if you want your child to attend school.
So home school your kid.
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Old 20th May 2011, 04:31 AM   #210
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He'll have to home school his kids because sooner or later they'll enter biology and physics classes that will teach them stuff that contradicts his worldview.


Or grandchildren in Clayton's case.
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Old 20th May 2011, 07:12 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Sure. The myth was at the time that the MMR vaccine combo could cause autism. The debate was do it or not. Said debate was carried in favour of vaccination by science, and also by the vacuous anti-vax arguments. So my two beautiful daughters were vaccinated with, I believe, a 5 fold vaccine.
So you chanced it knowing you could get the vaccines individually a couple months apart? Insurance wouldn't pay for it?

So you believe their should be no childhood illnesses?

And 20 vaccines or more is absolutely a good thing for a baby under 2 years old with an immature immune system? And who the medical community says shouldn't take an aspirin before adulthood?
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Old 20th May 2011, 07:22 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So you chanced it knowing you could get the vaccines individually a couple months apart? Insurance wouldn't pay for it?
No chance was involved, just science.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So you believe their should be no childhood illnesses?
Where did I or anyone else say that?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
And 20 vaccines or more is absolutely a good thing for a baby under 2 years old with an immature immune system? And who the medical community says shouldn't take an aspirin before adulthood?
Yup, vaccines are a good thing. Aspirin is not a vaccine. What's your point?
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:16 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No chance was involved, just science.


Where did I or anyone else say that?


Yup, vaccines are a good thing. Aspirin is not a vaccine. What's your point?
I'm not allowed to criticize any posts so I can't answer you.
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:20 AM   #214
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Quote:
And 20 vaccines or more is absolutely a good thing for a baby under 2 years old with an immature immune system?
Babies need the protection given by vaccines because they have an immature immune system.
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:37 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm not allowed to criticize any posts so I can't answer you.
You're not allowed personal attacks. You can criticize an argument to your heart's content.


Oh, and did I miss your answer to Dave Rogers question, namely why NICE recommends MMR vaccination despite their interests being very different to those of the pharmaceutical companies?
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:46 AM   #216
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AHEM!
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
*cough*
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Clayton what does the FDA do that makes you think they are in the pocket of Big Pharma? And I mean what actions by the FDA makes you think this?

I mean seriously.
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:49 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm not allowed to criticize any posts so I can't answer you.
Where did you get that idea? You can criticize his arguments as much as you can. Just leave the personal jabs out of it.
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:50 AM   #218
Clayton Moore
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
You're not allowed personal attacks. You can criticize an argument to your heart's content.


Oh, and did I miss your answer to Dave Rogers question, namely why NICE recommends MMR vaccination despite their interests being very different to those of the pharmaceutical companies?
I made no personal attack.
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:56 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm not allowed to criticize any posts so I can't answer you.
You're in luck, we have a cross vacant >>>> T
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Old 20th May 2011, 08:59 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I made no personal attack.
Good, then you're free to answer my question.

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Old 20th May 2011, 09:04 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
What does that have to with having to show a record of your child's shots to the school nurse to make sure all the required shots have been received?
Unfortunately in Indiana a parent can opt out of ALL immunizations by citing "religious objection."

A school child may not be required to undergo any immunization when the child's parent objects on religious grounds. A religious objection must be:
(1) Made in writing;
(2) Signed by the child's parent; and
(3) Delivered to the child's teacher or to the individual who might order an immunization.

Even more unfortunate is that now we've extended that "opt out" option to daycare.

Other states also have religious objection exclusions to required immunizations, something I wish more EDUCATED parents would lobby against.
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Old 20th May 2011, 11:42 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I made no personal attack.
Reread what twinstead said.

Try answering the questions posed to you.
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Old 20th May 2011, 12:31 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
They are if you want your child to attend school.
Why would we want our kids to attend school? They'll just fill their heads with nonsense like "Muslim terrorists carrried out 9/11" and "the Nazis started WWII" and "the moon landings really happened."

Next, they'll be teaching them that Obama is human, when he's clearly a reptilian overlord in disguise!

*spit*
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Old 20th May 2011, 01:01 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
You're not allowed personal attacks. You can criticize an argument to your heart's content.


Oh, and did I miss your answer to Dave Rogers question, namely why NICE recommends MMR vaccination despite their interests being very different to those of the pharmaceutical companies?
Did NICE run a study that compared the autism rate of children under 2 years old who received 20 or more vaccines to the autism rate of children under 2 years old who did not receive any vaccines?
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Old 20th May 2011, 01:10 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Did NICE run a study that compared the autism rate of children under 2 years old who received 20 or more vaccines to the autism rate of children under 2 years old who did not receive any vaccines?
Of course not, they just approved it, donned their monocles, and ran to the bank with comically large sacks of money from the vaccine producing supercompanies.
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Old 20th May 2011, 03:31 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
You want to enjoy the benefits of schools, you have to take some basic precautions to prevent outbreaks and epidemics.
I can agree with your premise but in my state education is compulsory up to the 8 grade. If someone were against the vaccines, they could then do home schooling.
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Old 20th May 2011, 04:52 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
You want to enjoy the benefits of schools, you have to take some basic precautions to prevent outbreaks and epidemics
Before vaccines childhood diseases weren't considered outbreaks or epidemics anymore than the common cold.

The Small Pox and Polio vaccines were strides in medicine most of the others are not.

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 20th May 2011 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 20th May 2011, 05:22 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Before vaccines childhood diseases weren't considered outbreaks or epidemics anymore than the common cold.
Ash the good old days when children dying was a matter of course and nothing to get bothered about. I miss those days.
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Old 20th May 2011, 05:29 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Ash the good old days when children dying was a matter of course and nothing to get bothered about. I miss those days.
yeah, the polio kids with the leg braces were having massive lulz...
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Old 20th May 2011, 05:57 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
yeah, the polio kids with the leg braces were having massive lulz...
Iron lungs were a hoot.
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Old 20th May 2011, 06:29 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Before vaccines childhood diseases weren't considered outbreaks or epidemics anymore than the common cold.

The Small Pox and Polio vaccines were strides in medicine most of the others are not.
Except that things like the Measles, Rubella and Pertussis were way worse than the common cold.

By what criteria are you deciding that the Small Pox and Polio vaccines were "good" and all the others were "not?"

And...once again. Would you please answer my question: What actions by the FDA makes you think they are bought off?
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Old 22nd May 2011, 11:42 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
Of course not, they just approved it, donned their monocles, and ran to the bank with comically large sacks of money from the vaccine producing supercompanies.
Sacks with giant dollar signs on them.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 01:07 AM   #233
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I'm betting they were twirling mustaches as well.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 01:44 AM   #234
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Accidentally knocked their top hats off as they ran in the door.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 04:59 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Did NICE run a study that compared the autism rate of children under 2 years old who received 20 or more vaccines to the autism rate of children under 2 years old who did not receive any vaccines?
Translation: "I haven't got a clue, but because it's a counter-argument I'm going to try to confuse the issue in the hope that everyone will quietly forget about it."

Clayton, I think we can assume that the eminent members of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence have access to the medical press and are able to read, and will therefore be familiar with the studies that show that no increase in autism has been observed as a result of MMR vaccination. Since their brief is to determine what healthcare should be provided in order to give maximum benefit for a given cost, which is very obviously in no way aligned to the financial interests of the pharmaceutical companies, why do you think they have chosen to recommend universal MMR vaccination?

Dave
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Old 23rd May 2011, 07:00 AM   #236
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What, you mean the Big Pharma controlled FDA doesn't hold authoritarian control in all countries?
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Old 23rd May 2011, 07:08 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
What, you mean the Big Pharma controlled FDA doesn't hold authoritarian control in all countries?
Yes, that's exactly what I've been ordered to say.

Dave
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Old 27th May 2011, 04:06 AM   #238
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Bump.
It seems that the anti-vaccine nuts are getting their way; there's been a ten-fold increase in measles cases in the UK this year with increases also noted in France and Belgium. More here and here.
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Old 27th May 2011, 07:17 AM   #239
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How can that be when all they need is proper nutrition and sanitation?
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Old 27th May 2011, 07:34 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
How can that be when all they need is proper nutrition and sanitation?
You know. I don't understand that argument even if its premise was correct. What do we do with all those people who haven't got proper nutrition and sanitation? Are they better off be-measled?

You don't even have to go to third world countries to find malnutrition and unsanitary living conditions. You don't have to go further than Plumstead common. (Or Sergel's Square in Stockholm) What about the homeless and the people who have fallen between the cracks in countries that no longer offer psychiatric care placements? What about the perfectly ordinary benefit recipient or minimum wage earner with a weekly food budget of 12 and a council that won't offer a bin scheme and also won't clean up after the gulls have been at the rubbish sacks?

What do we do until we can - which we apparently can't now, for some reason, and councils are expected to save further millions of pounds next year - provide every citizen with proper nutrition and sanitation?

Even if the premise was true - we don't have 100% coverage of nutrition and sanitation for our entire populations. There are always some people who fall through the cracks for long lengths of time. Are they just supposed to mump it? Because those of us who can afford proper nutrition and sanitary conditions aren't willing to trade off a 0.00000001% risk against a one in 15 risk?

Nice.

And academic, since the previous near erradication of these diseases - these killer diseases, these maiming diseases, these disfiguring and painful diseases - was down to vaccines and the proper infrastructure to administer them.
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