Merged: Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[Dcdrac]

So far no proven link at all between vaccines and autism.

None of mr Moores psots have shown any evidence of it what so ever

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by pakeha

Oh dear, CM, I meant jdc324's links.
Sorry for the confusion.

As is becoming a pattern, your own latest links actually show the contrary to your premise.

So at the end of the day, just what is the link between vaxx and autism?

The link is that hundreds of thousands of toddlers become autistic shortly after receiving an MMR vaccination. Plus the medical community, after decades of supposed investigation, can't figure out why, what is it now, one toddler in 85, will become autistic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/he...udy-finds.html
Diagnoses of Autism on the Rise, Report Says

Quote:

The likelihood of a child’s being given a diagnosis of autism, Asperger syndrome or a related disorder increased more than 20 percent from 2006 to 2008, according to a report released on Thursday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Readers’ Comments

Quote:

The new report estimates that in 2008 one child in 88 received one of these diagnoses, known as autism spectrum disorders, by age 8, compared with about one in 110 two years earlier. The estimated rate in 2002 was about one in 155.

Quote:

The estimated rates in those states varied widely, from one in 210 children in Alabama to one in 47 in Utah.

Quote:

The sharpest increases appeared among Hispanic and black children, who historically have been less likely to receive an autism spectrum diagnosis than white children.

The pinks show obvious evidence that poor people would be more likely to be UNDER-VACCINATED and therefore less likely to receive an autism spectrum diagnosis.

[Dcdrac]

Mr Moore where is the evidence in a Peer reviewed scientific paper to back any of your last links assertions

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The link is that hundreds of thousands of toddlers become autistic shortly after receiving an MMR vaccination.

You know perfectly well what the standard explanation for this is. How do you get around that? I don't understand why you would even post this without explaining why the normal explanation for this is wrong.

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

So far no proven link at all between vaccines and autism.

None of mr Moores psots have shown any evidence of it what so ever

None of mr moore's posts have shown any evidence, period.

[Giordano]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Ahahhahahaha

So the body is ready to accept bicarbonate, potassium and sodium phosphates into the body through the skin and utilize them?

ahahahahha

Another attempt to hide your lack of knowledge and evidence by using derision??

To answer your question: yes the body easily accepts these chemicals by injection and utilizes them, just as they are utilized from food (although there is quite a bit more in food). And they are not just in vaccines, but in many other drugs.

Medical scientists could have simply said, "well these are natural chemicals so common sense says they are safe to inject." But they didn't stop there. They understood the limits of "common sense." They repeatedly tested these chemicals in various combinations, and in the final vaccines, and proved they are safe.

Science and proof versus dreamed up, discredited suppositions... I know which I trust.

[Capsid]

Chemicals get absorbed through the skin anyway. Nicotine patches?

[Estellea]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The link is that hundreds of thousands of toddlers become autistic shortly after receiving an MMR vaccination. Plus the medical community, after decades of supposed investigation, can't figure out why, what is it now, one toddler in 85, will become autistic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/he...udy-finds.html
Diagnoses of Autism on the Rise, Report Says

The pinks show obvious evidence that poor people would be more likely to be UNDER-VACCINATED and therefore less likely to receive an autism spectrum diagnosis.

Obvious Clay? To whom? Let's see, it couldn't be because lower socio-economic classes don't have access to appropriate medical attention to get a diagnosis, or services to receive therapies or the education to understand that their infant/toddler is not meeting milestones. Nah, can't be that right Clay?

I'm still waiting for your explanation of heavy metals in vaccines Clay. Please show me where they are in the ingredients lists for MMR and MMR-V. Why are you dodging this?

Este

[shuttlt]

Given that Clayton's arguments are basically the same as every other anti-vaxer and the response is the same as it always is, I wonder whether it wouldn't be more worthwhile for Clayton to say whether he has something to add to this well worn conversation?

Really, what's the point otherwise. Trolling?

[jdc324]

Originally Posted by Estellea

[snip]
I'm still waiting for your explanation of heavy metals in vaccines Clay. Please show me where they are in the ingredients lists for MMR and MMR-V. Why are you dodging this?

I would also like to know why Clayton is dodging this. Oh, and the post I wrote about mercury and autism...

Come to think of it, there are quite a few things that Clayton has dodged in this thread.

[Estellea]

Originally Posted by jdc324

I would also like to know why Clayton is dodging this. Oh, and the post I wrote about mercury and autism...

Come to think of it, there are quite a few things that Clayton has dodged in this thread.

Oh I know. He just starts other trollish threads to divert attention away from his scientific-ignorance, racism and a mryiad of other denialisms. Oddly, his diversionary strategy merely emphasises his proclivities.

Este

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The link is that hundreds of thousands of toddlers become autistic shortly after receiving an MMR vaccination. Plus the medical community, after decades of supposed investigation, can't figure out why, what is it now, one toddler in 85, will become autistic.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/he...udy-finds.html ...

The pinks show obvious evidence that poor people would be more likely to be UNDER-VACCINATED and therefore less likely to receive an autism spectrum diagnosis.

Hi, CM, thanks for the reply.
All these points have been covered by other posters.
What I would like to mention is that your final sentence has me puzzled- why would the poor in the USA not receive the MMR and MMR-V?

[jdc324]

Originally Posted by Estellea

No you don't Clay; you are using that source that stated "heavy metals" are in MMR and MMR-V so please tell me what those heavy metals are. Just go back to your source and identify it.

Este

I'll save Clayton the trouble of checking to see whether there was any thimerosal in MMR. I can't think of any other source of "heavy metals" that Clayton might be thinking of. Perhaps if there is something he has in mind he can let us know.

Table 3 here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228 thimerosal content is listed as 0 for MMR

This WHO page explains why it would not be used for MMR: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/co.../questions/en/ "Many licensed vaccines do not contain thiomersal. Such vaccines include vaccines in single-dose presentation or vaccines for which thiomersal would interfere with vaccine efficacy such as live vaccines including MMR, oral and inactivated polio, yellow fever, and BCG vaccine."

[Estellea]

Originally Posted by jdc324

I'll save Clayton the trouble of checking to see whether there was any thimerosal in MMR. I can't think of any other source of "heavy metals" that Clayton might be thinking of. Perhaps if there is something he has in mind he can let us know.

Table 3 here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228 thimerosal content is listed as 0 for MMR

This WHO page explains why it would not be used for MMR: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/co.../questions/en/ "Many licensed vaccines do not contain thiomersal. Such vaccines include vaccines in single-dose presentation or vaccines for which thiomersal would interfere with vaccine efficacy such as live vaccines including MMR, oral and inactivated polio, yellow fever, and BCG vaccine."

Ack, you're not supposed to be doing his work. I know the answer to my question but I want Clayton to substantiate his source's claim that MMR and MMR-V contain "heavy metals". If he can't then he should be questioning his sources (or at least a presumably honest person would).

So Clayton, the question still stands, what heavy metals are in MMR and MMR-V as you claimed?

Este

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Estellea

Ack, you're not supposed to be doing his work. I know the answer to my question but I want Clayton to substantiate his source's claim that MMR and MMR-V contain "heavy metals". If he can't then he should be questioning his sources (or at least a presumably honest person would).

So Clayton, the question still stands, what heavy metals are in MMR and MMR-V as you claimed?

Este

Ack, Clay has wandered off to pastures new, and will not be back until he thinks the heat has died down.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Ack, Clay has wandered off to pastures new, and will not be back until he thinks the heat has died down.

As usual.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by jdc324

I'll save Clayton the trouble of checking to see whether there was any thimerosal in MMR. I can't think of any other source of "heavy metals" that Clayton might be thinking of. Perhaps if there is something he has in mind he can let us know.

Table 3 here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228 thimerosal content is listed as 0 for MMR

This WHO page explains why it would not be used for MMR: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/co.../questions/en/ "Many licensed vaccines do not contain thiomersal. Such vaccines include vaccines in single-dose presentation or vaccines for which thiomersal would interfere with vaccine efficacy such as live vaccines including MMR, oral and inactivated polio, yellow fever, and BCG vaccine."

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228
Thimerosal as a Preservative

Quote:

Thimerosal, which is approximately 50% mercury by weight, has been one of the most widely used preservatives in vaccines. It is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate. Ethylmercury is an organomercurial that should be distinguished from methylmercury, a related substance that has been the focus of considerable study (see "Guidelines on Exposure to Organomercurials" and "Thimerosal Toxicity", below).

I don't give a crap what any vaccine zombie thinks. Any medical community that uses or has used a 50% mercury by weight concoction that is/was
to be injected into any child's arm is nothing but brain dead insane.


It's mercury. Freaking freaking mercury. Now go get your anthrax shots.

[Clayton Moore]

There are times when you just have understand what is toxic. Mercury in any form is toxic.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by jdc324

I'll save Clayton the trouble of checking to see whether there was any thimerosal in MMR. I can't think of any other source of "heavy metals" that Clayton might be thinking of. Perhaps if there is something he has in mind he can let us know.

Table 3 here: http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228 thimerosal content is listed as 0 for MMR

This WHO page explains why it would not be used for MMR: http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/co.../questions/en/ "Many licensed vaccines do not contain thiomersal. Such vaccines include vaccines in single-dose presentation or vaccines for which thiomersal would interfere with vaccine efficacy such as live vaccines including MMR, oral and inactivated polio, yellow fever, and BCG vaccine."

Table of Contents

Preservatives in Vaccines

Quote:

To begin, we need to answer two questions-what are preservatives and why are they used in vaccines. For our purposes, preservatives may be defined as compounds that kill or prevent the growth of microorganisms, particularly bacteria and fungi. They are used in vaccines to prevent microbial growth in the event that the vaccine is accidentally contaminated, as might occur with repeated puncture of multi-dose vials. In some cases, preservatives are added during manufacture to prevent microbial growth; with changes in manufacturing technology, however, the need to add preservatives during the manufacturing process has decreased markedly.

The United States Code of Federal Regulations (the CFR) requires, in general, the addition of a preservative to multi-dose vials of vaccines; indeed, worldwide, preservatives are routinely added to multi-dose vials of vaccine. Tragic consequences have followed the use of multi-dose vials that did not contain a preservative and have served as the impetus for this requirement. One particularly telling incident from Australia is described by Sir Graham S. Wilson in his classic book, The Hazards of Immunization

In January 1928, in the early stages of an immunization campaign against diphtheria, Dr. Ewing George Thomson, Medical Officer of Health of Bundaberg, began the injection of children with toxin-antitoxin mixture. The material was taken from an India-rubber-capped bottle containing 10 mL of TAM. On the 17th, 20th, 21, and 24th January, Dr. Thomson injected subcutaneously a total of 21 children without ill effect. On the 27th a further 21 children were injected.Of these children .eleven died on the 28th and one on the 29th. (Wilson 1967)

How do you think those children died? Infection? I freaking doubt it.

BTW I think

A milliliter is .03 fluid ounces.
10 milliliters is .3 fluid ounces

42 injections from 10 milliliters would be 0.0071428571428571428571428571428571 fluid ounces each.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228
Thimerosal as a Preservative


I don't give a crap what any vaccine zombie thinks. Any medical community that uses or has used a 50% mercury by weight concoction that is/was
to be injected into any child's arm is nothing but brain dead insane.


It's mercury. Freaking freaking mercury. Now go get your anthrax shots.

I do like these reasoned scientific arguments that you come up with. Still no link with autism.

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Any medical community that uses or has used a 50% mercury by weight concoction that is/was
to be injected into any child's arm is nothing but brain dead insane.

Chlorine is 60% by weight of salt...anyone adding salt to anything must, consequently, be brain dead insane.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

How do you think those children died? Infection? I freaking doubt it.

They died because the vaccine had no preservative in it. The result was it got contaminated.

Dr Thomson did not realise this, and so used it past its "sell by date".

It's a pretty famous case...

[Estellea]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228
Thimerosal as a Preservative


I don't give a crap what any vaccine zombie thinks. Any medical community that uses or has used a 50% mercury by weight concoction that is/was
to be injected into any child's arm is nothing but brain dead insane.


It's mercury. Freaking freaking mercury. Now go get your anthrax shots.

OK, but what do anthrax jabs have to do with mercury? And while we're at it, what heavy metals are in MMR and MMR-V as you claimed?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

There are times when you just have understand what is toxic. Mercury in any form is toxic.

Let's see, what is toxic? By Clay-logic that would also be water, sodium chloride, calcium and vitamin d. We'd better not touch any of those right Clay?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Table of Contents

Preservatives in Vaccines

How do you think those children died? Infection? I freaking doubt it.

BTW I think

A milliliter is .03 fluid ounces.
10 milliliters is .3 fluid ounces

42 injections from 10 milliliters would be 0.0071428571428571428571428571428571 fluid ounces each.

Well Clay since you were so obviously involved with the investigation of these unfortunate deaths, perhaps you would like to share the medical reports. What point are you trying to make with your maths Clay?

Este

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

There are times when you just have understand what is toxic. Mercury in any form is toxic.

Selenuim, Clayton.

Too much? you will die

Too little? then you will die.

But you cannot function without this toxin.

[Dcdrac]

Oxygen is a toxin try breathing without it

http://www.ccmtutorials.com/rs/oxygen/page16.htm

"Why is Oxygen considered toxic?

High inspired oxygen concentrations cause toxicity by causing formation of oxygen free radicals (which damage tissues), and by causing absorption atelectasis and V/Q mismatch.

The issue of oxygen toxicity has been topical for a generation, following the discovery that therapeutic oxygen causes blindness in premature babies (retrolental fibroplasias) with respiratory distress syndrome. In addition, it has been established that high inspired concentrations of oxygen may cause acute lung injury, probably due to oxygen free radical production – superoxide, hydroxyl, hydrogen peroxide and singlet O2 molecules. These agents damage biomolecules such as membrane lipids, enzymes and nucleic acids. The extent of injury appears to depend on 1. The FiO2, 2. The duration of exposure, 3. The barometric pressure under which exposure occurred. It appears that the critical FiO2 for toxicity is around 50% (1), above which lung recruitment maneuvers should be condidered (CPAP).

High concentrations of inspired oxygen may cause absorption atelectasis. In addition high FiO2 may cause increased peripheral vascular resistance in congestive heart failure leading to reduced cardiac output."

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228
Thimerosal as a Preservative


I don't give a crap what any vaccine zombie thinks. Any medical community that uses or has used a 50% mercury by weight concoction that is/was
to be injected into any child's arm is nothing but brain dead insane.


It's mercury. Freaking freaking mercury. Now go get your anthrax shots.

See, this is the type of anti-scientific nonsense that clearly shows you have NO idea about any form of chemistry.
While thimerosal might be 50% by weight mercury, its the amount of atoms you get inside you that counts, not a weight ratio.
Your scare site neither mentions that fact, nor the actual amounts of thiosermal used, nor have you adressed the fact that the vaccines you rail agaist do NOT contain thiosermal at all.
Mercury is also not toxic at any level, there is a maximum dosage which is quite well known and which would not be exceeded by the vaccines.
The incident where you claim that 12 of 21 children in 1928 is explicitly mentioned as something that could have been PREVENTED with thimoseral.

[Giordano]

Clayton,
Pretty amazing: three posts in a row, and each increasing wrong!
Some hints for future reference:

An angry rant against thiomersal is not an effective response to a post proving MMR vaccines do not have thiomersal.

An angry rant against the toxicity of other forms of mercury is not relevant to the toxicity of thiomersal.

An angry rant against a a tragic occurrence in 1928 that was due to a lack of preservative in a vaccine is not an effective argument against preservatives in vaccines.

A statement such as, "How do you think these children died? Infection? I freaking doubt it!" tends to undermine people's confidence in your medical opinions when, in fact, the children did die of infection. I guess whether you "freaking doubt" something or not is a poor way to determine the truth and to make medical decisions.

Hope that helps.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228
Thimerosal as a Preservative


I don't give a crap what any vaccine zombie thinks. Any medical community that uses or has used a 50% mercury by weight concoction that is/was
to be injected into any child's arm is nothing but brain dead insane.


It's mercury. Freaking freaking mercury. Now go get your anthrax shots.

Hi, CM.
What does this have to do autism?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

...
How do you think those children died? Infection? I freaking doubt it...

Originally Posted by Tolls

...They died because the vaccine had no preservative in it. The result was it got contaminated.

Dr Thomson did not realise this, and so used it past its "sell by date".

It's a pretty famous case...

Ouch.

[jdc324]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

There are times when you just have understand what is toxic. Mercury in any form is toxic.

Yes, there are times when you just have understand what is toxic.

What dose of mercury is toxic? (Are all forms of mercury equally toxic?)

Which forms of mercury accumulate in the human body? To what extent?


What does the toxicity of mercury have to do with autism, by the way? Didn't you read the link I gave upthread pointing out that levels of mercury in children with autism were not significantly different from levels in children developing normally? Or the evidence that showed no link between TCV and autism? There was quite a lot of evidence. If you ignored it all, then perhaps I shouldn't be surprised if you still mistakenly believe that mercury in vaccines has anything to do with autism.

[shuttlt]

Look, apart from there being no thimerosal in MMR, the absense rather than presense of thimerosal being the cause of the deaths, and when thermosal is used the dose is tiny... is there anything wrong with the case for mercury in the MMR causing autism?

[jdc324]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Look, apart from there being no thimerosal in MMR, the absense rather than presense of thimerosal being the cause of the deaths, and when thermosal is used the dose is tiny... is there anything wrong with the case for mercury in the MMR causing autism?

That's pretty much it.

(I suppose you could probably add the research that shows no significant differences in mercury levels in those with or without autism. Or all the research that has been conducted that shows no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. But they're just trivial details given your first point.)

[shuttlt]

So, apart from there being no thimerosal in MMR, the absence rather than presence of thimerosal being the cause of the deaths, when thermosal is used the dose is tiny, there being no difference in mercury levels in kids with autism and those without and all the research being against a link.... it's safe to say that the evidence isn't there yet?

I had a flu vaccination about a week ago. Can anybody recommend a natural chelating agent to restore my homeostasis?

[Tanalia]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

I had a flu vaccination about a week ago. Can anybody recommend a natural chelating agent to restore my homeostasis?

I recommend 500 to 1000 ml of dihydrogen monoxide daily.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Tanalia

I recommend 500 to 1000 ml of dihydrogen monoxide daily.

But stay away from the hydrogen hydroxide -- that stuff's two third hydrogen and will blow up your tummy...

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Yeah, but have you ever seen the health effects of oxygen?
Highly dangerous substance that, it can oxidize nearly ANYTHING, and that dihydrogenmonoxide is like almost 90% weight ratio oxygen.

[TSR]

Pffft. Hydrogen hydroxide can corrode solid iron!

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by jdc324

Yes, there are times when you just have understand what is toxic.

What dose of mercury is toxic? (Are all forms of mercury equally toxic?)

Which forms of mercury accumulate in the human body? To what extent?


What does the toxicity of mercury have to do with autism, by the way? Didn't you read the link I gave upthread pointing out that levels of mercury in children with autism were not significantly different from levels in children developing normally? Or the evidence that showed no link between TCV and autism? There was quite a lot of evidence. If you ignored it all, then perhaps I shouldn't be surprised if you still mistakenly believe that mercury in vaccines has anything to do with autism.

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Look, apart from there being no thimerosal in MMR, the absense rather than presense of thimerosal being the cause of the deaths, and when thermosal is used the dose is tiny... is there anything wrong with the case for mercury in the MMR causing autism?

Errr...
The upside is that I for one am learning a lot about the anti-vaxx arguments and what they're worth.

[Dcdrac]

Thanks to the anti vaccinne nutters we are facing a potential problem here in the UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...sation-warning

[ArmillarySphere]

I prefer methylated carbon dihydrogen hydroxide myself. That stuff works a treat against a number of illnesses.

[Tomtomkent]

Originally Posted by TSR

Pffft. Hydrogen hydroxide can corrode solid iron!

Do you have any idea how much of that substance children are exposed too? We bathe their entire tiny bodies in it!

Pluss, how terrible is the explosion risk of having massive weights of hydrogen massed with oxygen over two thirds of the planets surface!

[jdc324]

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

Thanks to the anti vaccinne nutters we are facing a potential problem here in the UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...sation-warning

The whooping cough outbreak is complicated by the issues with waning immunity after vaccination but, yeah, the anti-vaccinationists aren't helping. Hopefully the new measures (e.g. offering the vaccine to pregnant women, as per the article) will help to protect the most vulnerable. I wonder what effect the anti-vaccinationists have had on the uptake of the pertussis vaccine among pregnant women (i.e. if it weren't for them, would uptake be significantly higher?). Vaccination rates have been pretty good in children so 44% in pregnant women isn't that great.