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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 17th December 2012, 02:21 PM   #3121
Reality Check
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
I'm sure that the parents of the millions of children who did not became autistic after MMR vaccinations know what they are talking about too.
So what?
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:23 PM   #3122
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
Actually, this has been done as a result of MMR withdrawal in Japan and autism rates actually increased after MMR was no longer given.

Tough luck Clay.

ETA: Eventually the monovalent vaccines were used and mumps and rubella incidence has gone up steadily since the withdrawal of MMR due to changes in vaccine recommendations.

Este
There's also the studies discussed here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2908388/ which address both rates of autism and age of onset.

"...investigators did not observe a clustering of autism diagnoses relative to the time that children received MMR vaccine, nor did they observe a difference in age at autism diagnosis between those vaccinated and not vaccinated or between those vaccinated before or after 18 months of age"

"...an increase in autism diagnoses despite stable MMR vaccination rates"

"...the increase in the number of autism diagnoses did not correlate with MMR vaccination rates"

"Autism rates increased coincident with a decrease in MMR vaccination rates."

"Of 309 children hospitalized for autistic disorders, no clustering occurred relative to the time of MMR vaccination."

"The authors observed no differences in the relative risk of autism between those who did and those who did not receive MMR vaccine. Among autistic children, no relationship between date of vaccination and development of autism was observed."

"The authors observed no differences in age at vaccination between autistic and nonautistic children, which suggests that early age of MMR vaccine exposure was not a risk factor for autism."

Clayton doesn't seem to understand the the questions he's seeking answers to have already been asked and answered by researchers. If he bothered to actually look at the evidence which is constantly spoon-fed to him on this thread he'd be well-aware of the research that has already been conducted: research that renders his proposed study redundant. He probably won't read what I'm about to post, either.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...rse-of-autism/

Quote:
Prior studies using home movies have shown that signs of autism can be detected between 8-12 months. A study looking at head circumference found statistical differences prior to 12 months. And one study looking at movements found differences between 4-6 months. So it seems the consensus of current evidence is that objective and detectable signs of autism emerge between 6-12 months. This study does not support detection prior to 6 months, but other studies do suggest this might be possible.
I do wonder what Clayton might make of the claim that "the consensus of current evidence is that objective and detectable signs of autism emerge between 6-12 months" in light of the US vaccination schedule. I won't expect him to click on any links I provide, but I will point out that MMR, according to the schedule, should be given at 12-15 months. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/...-iz-babies.pdf
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:46 PM   #3123
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw


Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.
No Clayton; I don't watch YooToob videos to obtain scientific data. I've read the OAP transcripts; I've read a good deal of Wakefield's GMC FTP transcripts and you simply do not have any data to support your claim that MMR causes autism nor that hundreds of thousands of parents claim so nor that heavy metals are in MMR. Come up with studies Clayton; I'm not interested in silly videos.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
Actually they don't. A well known "autism mum" has three daughters who are autistic; the first two were vaccinated; the third was not. Mum still blames vaccines. Better than blaming their own genes in their minds.

Este
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:00 PM   #3124
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post

Actually they don't. A well known "autism mum" has three daughters who are autistic; the first two were vaccinated; the third was not. Mum still blames vaccines. Better than blaming their own genes in their minds.

Este
Link?
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:04 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Link?
While you're killing time waiting for that link, there are some in #3085 for you to take a look at.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:08 PM   #3126
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
By the way, why aren't you answering Bram Kaandorp regarding your little "Death Sentence" dramatic tootsie roll you left on the carpet? Left speechless? Are you afraid to touch it?
Thank you. Someone notices.

Got an answer, Clayton?
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:41 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
Thank you. Someone notices.

Got an answer, Clayton?
More than one. I await CM's response with interest.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:49 PM   #3128
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I'm sure the parent's whose two of three triplets became autistic after mmr vaccinations know what they are talking about..
There are many parents in the world who are convinced their children became ill due to witchcraft. Do they know what they are talking about?

Honestly Clayton, you've returned to this argument over and over again: some tiny percent of parents believe vaccines caused autism in their children. Why would their anedoctal opinion have any validity, given their lack of knowledge of medicine, disease, and statistics, compared to the conclusions of doctors and scientists who have actually done detailed, large studies?? Having that pointed out to you over and over again, how on earth can you believe this is such a convincing point that you bother to repeat it?
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Old 17th December 2012, 04:03 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw


Really? Take the time to view this.

We as humans have no way to process Mercury.
See 15 minutes into the video.
Wrong- we process and excrete mercury in many different ways that help remove it from the body. See the past hundred years of scientific study. Here's one summary:

http://enhs.umn.edu/current/5103_spr.../mercdose.html

You would easily have found this information if you bothered to actually research the question rather than wasting your time watching a biased YouTube video.

As I've warned you before, the websites you cite are lying to you.
Remember the old saying, "Fool me once shame on you...?"
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Old 17th December 2012, 05:17 PM   #3130
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Link?
http://kimstagliano.blogspot.com/200...07-versus.html
And Ms. Stagliano did not have a flu jab when she was pregnant; she was speaking in general. She is blaming her childhood vaccines on the unvaccinated child's autism. Anti-vaxx ignorance knows no depths.

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Old 17th December 2012, 05:20 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
Thank you. Someone notices.

Got an answer, Clayton?
Don't hold your breath. Clayton doesn't correct his errors nor apologise for insulting an entire population of people and their families.

Este
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Old 17th December 2012, 05:31 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
Don't hold your breath. Clayton doesn't correct his errors nor apologise for insulting an entire population of people and their families.

Este
Maybe Clayton thinks that my brother should just strangle his daughter?
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Old 19th December 2012, 12:11 PM   #3133
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
http://kimstagliano.blogspot.com/200...07-versus.html
And Ms. Stagliano did not have a flu jab when she was pregnant; she was speaking in general. She is blaming her childhood vaccines on the unvaccinated child's autism. Anti-vaxx ignorance knows no depths.

Este
Quote:
OK, I'll let you think about this. Below is the recommended vaccination schedule for babies born in 2007 versus babies born in 1983. Each vaccine is tested individually for safety. The vaccines are not tested as a sum introduction to developing immune systems over a period of mere months. Too much water will screw up your system. You'd never take a Tylenol with a Motrin and an aspirin, although on their own, each pill works well.

How about too many vaccines? Autism rates are now at 1 in 150 from 1 in 10,000 a few decades ago. And don't forget peanut allergies, asthma, ADHD, severe mental illness like 5 year olds with bi-polar have risen dramatically too.
Thanks for the stupid, not, link.
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Old 19th December 2012, 12:17 PM   #3134
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Check out page 56 of the December 2012 issue of Scientific American. Is Drug Research Trustworthy?

I'm sure Vaccine Research is also behaving just as badly or worse.
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Old 19th December 2012, 12:20 PM   #3135
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Do you think an argument made from incredulity is reason enough to put children and infants at risk of serious harm or death acceptable, Clayton? If so, why?
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Old 19th December 2012, 12:58 PM   #3136
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Clayton, why aren't you responding to polite, relevant posts that have been addressed to you? Don't you want to engage in honest debate? You might find the evidence you've been pointed to and the questions you've been asked inconvenient but I think it's rather rude to ignore them - and it makes it harder to have a proper discussion if people pick and choose which posts to respond to and which to ignore. (Particularly when those posts being ignored contain important evidence that is relevant to one or more strands of the discussion, or questions that would, if answered, make a viewpoint clear.)
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:15 PM   #3137
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Check out page 56 of the December 2012 issue of Scientific American. Is Drug Research Trustworthy?

I'm sure Vaccine Research is also behaving just as badly or worse.
Why?
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:27 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Why?
I think what Clayton is doing is referring to the problems with drug company-funded research (the kind of thing documented in Ben Goldacre's Bad Pharma) and insinuating that because there are issues with research sponsored by Big Pharma there must be issues with the research people cite in this thread on vaccination. Which, as far as I can tell, tends to be work conducted by independent researchers (e.g. the research on MMR and autism that we keep posting and Clayton keeps ignoring).

I think there was some fairly detailed discussion of this earlier in the thread, where the nature of the research demonstrating that there was no link between MMR and autism was covered. Of course, that won't stop Clayton repeating canards that have already been debunked. There appears to be nothing that will.
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:36 PM   #3139
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Thanks, jdc324.
At the end of the day, CM's arguments seem based more on rumour and innuendo than anything else, don't they?
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Old 19th December 2012, 01:38 PM   #3140
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Thanks, jdc324.
At the end of the day, CM's arguments seem based more on rumour and innuendo than anything else, don't they?
Well, to be fair, what else could they be based on?

It's not like there's any evidence supporting his position.
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Old 19th December 2012, 02:53 PM   #3141
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Surely the only way to progress this is to find out why it is that Clayton believes vaccines cause autism? The arguments in favor of a link appear to me to be justifications after the fact using any anecdotes and quotes that can be found. I take it this isn't Clayton's only fringe belief?
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Old 19th December 2012, 03:08 PM   #3142
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Surely the only way to progress this is to find out why it is that Clayton believes vaccines cause autism? The arguments in favor of a link appear to me to be justifications after the fact using any anecdotes and quotes that can be found. I take it this isn't Clayton's only fringe belief?
Correct. Holocaust denial too.
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Old 19th December 2012, 03:19 PM   #3143
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That's atypical. Normally anti-vaxers are coiming from a more new-age/homeopathy/electric fields kind of place. Holocaust denial is a new one on me. Presumably the link is the victim/conspiracy angle.

If you ask me, which you haven't, lots of the fringe posters enjoy dramatizing their lives with some narrative involving secret knowledge, magic, and conspiracies etc. Does Clayton actually want to be convinced by something less exciting?
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Old 19th December 2012, 03:23 PM   #3144
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
That's atypical. Normally anti-vaxers are coiming from a more new-age/homeopathy/electric fields kind of place. Holocaust denial is a new one on me. Presumably the link is the victim/conspiracy angle.

If you ask me, which you haven't, lots of the fringe posters enjoy dramatizing their lives with some narrative involving secret knowledge, magic, and conspiracies etc. Does Clayton actually want to be convinced by something less exciting?
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...33904&page=141
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Old 19th December 2012, 03:27 PM   #3145
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Correct. Holocaust denial too.
Also 9/11 truther.
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Old 19th December 2012, 03:41 PM   #3146
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Thanks for the link. He clearly has no great interest in the correctness of any of the facts or logic in either thread. Either a troll or something very like one. I'm impressed by the number of threads he's started.
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Old 19th December 2012, 06:56 PM   #3147
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Thanks for the stupid, not, link.
Perhaps then her admission that her unvaccinated daughter has autism but blames her own childhood vaccines and even more stupidly claims vitamin K contributed escaped you? Or is this again a situation of hearing something you find inconvenient? I also see you haven't responded to the many publications that have been presented to you. Why is that Clay? Is the non-YooToob format throwing you for a loop?
For starters, no MMR in Japan, no monovalent measles, mumps and rubella for three years but an entire city's children was audited and autism prevalence still rose. Could you please offer an explanation for that? Could you please tell me what heavy metals are in MMR? Thanks.

Este
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Old 19th December 2012, 08:05 PM   #3148
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Why?
Reading helps you learn.
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Old 19th December 2012, 08:09 PM   #3149
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Reading helps you learn.
Then get on it. Times a wastin'.
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Old 19th December 2012, 08:46 PM   #3150
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Reading helps you learn.
Good point! So, did you get a chance to read that Wikipedia article on the immune system that I recommended to you many months ago? It's very informative and would help you understand how the anti-vax sites are making stuff up, distorting information, and are lying to you. The immune system is also absolutely amazing; I think you will find the article very interesting!
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Old 20th December 2012, 11:26 AM   #3151
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Reading helps you learn.
Excellent! Then you would have no problem answering my questions (which I believe I asked you before). So read the paper Clinical Significance of Measles and then post an equivalent review from PubMed that shows the MMR vaccine is more dangerous than measles.

And then when you are done with that, you can read this table on thimerosal amounts in vaccines in the American pediatric schedule. Then tell us which on that this are only available with thimerosal. That means that none of the vaccines that have the word "free" in the thimerosal column.

Note that several of the influenza vaccines do not have thimerosal, so it is not influenza vaccine.
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Old 20th December 2012, 12:44 PM   #3152
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Think of it this way


http://voices.yahoo.com/dpt-vaccine-...81.html?cat=71

Your body has a pretty effective defense system to deal with ingested or inhaled toxic materials. But you as an adult wouldn't make a habit if ingesting or inhaling even minute amounts of

Quote:
diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis adsorbed, the chemicals in the list of DPT vaccine ingredients includes formaldehyde, aluminum phosphate, ammonium sulfate, and thimerosal, and animal by products of washed sheep RBCs.
Yet you would encourage that this type of toxin collection be injected into an infants body? Possibly 8 times in one session?

http://www.healthoma.com/what-is-tet...-it-dangerous/

Now for a short common sense quiz.

If you or your baby/child ingested some dirt do you think a tetanus shot was necessary?
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Old 20th December 2012, 12:48 PM   #3153
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I note you revert to argument from incredulity and decided to dodge the plethora of questions that you are incapable of answering.

I honestly feel bad that people out there still side with Wakefield's craziness, despite his being revealed as a scammer, liar, and fraud, who threw the health and welfare of children under the bus just so he could pad his wallet some more.
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Old 20th December 2012, 01:34 PM   #3154
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Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
I note you revert to argument from incredulity and decided to dodge the plethora of questions that you are incapable of answering.

I honestly feel bad that people out there still side with Wakefield's craziness, despite his being revealed as a scammer, liar, and fraud, who threw the health and welfare of children under the bus just so he could pad his wallet some more.
I note, by your lack of response, that you feel that inhaling and ingesting germs is just as dangerous as receiving them through a puncture of the skin.

The plethora of questions I've received are nothing more than an attempt to confuse the issue.

Are you a doctor? is a favorite

Last edited by Clayton Moore; 20th December 2012 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 20th December 2012, 01:49 PM   #3155
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I note CM you still know nothing about medicine nor Biology
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Old 20th December 2012, 01:53 PM   #3156
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Clayton, does anything link all these various things that you feel mainstream opinion is wrong about - MMR, 9/11, the holocaust? Is it just a random collection of ideas, or is there a common thread?
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Old 20th December 2012, 02:06 PM   #3157
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Quote:
If you or your baby/child ingested some dirt do you think a tetanus shot was necessary?
Tetanus is an anaerobic bacterium. It wouldn't survive in the gut but does in a deep puncture wound.
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Old 20th December 2012, 02:08 PM   #3158
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Originally Posted by Dcdrac View Post
I note CM you still know nothing about medicine nor Biology
I doubt if you know much about either either.

Why are germs more dangerous through the skin?

All my life I've been told a puncture wound is much more dangerous than the average cut.
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Old 20th December 2012, 02:09 PM   #3159
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Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
Tetanus is an anaerobic bacterium. It wouldn't survive in the gut but does in a deep puncture wound.
Bingo.
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Old 20th December 2012, 02:11 PM   #3160
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Clayton, does anything link all these various things that you feel mainstream opinion is wrong about - MMR, 9/11, the holocaust? Is it just a random collection of ideas, or is there a common thread?
All three concern in your face bald face lies.
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