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Tags health conspiracies , vaccination , vaccine autism myth , vaccines

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Old 31st May 2011, 03:02 AM   #281
Tolls
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.
That's not really how they work, you know...
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:05 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. ....
I am sorry to hear that. Are they diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergers? There's quite a spectrum from a mildly Aspergers condition to what is usually labelled Autistic.
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:41 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.
Do you have any evidence it did screw up anybody's brain?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.
No. No they are not live diseases. And they do have specific dosages.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.
Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream.
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:50 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.
Could they? Sure. Did they? No.

Quote:
Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.
Not surprisingly, the anti-vaxxer doesn't know how vaccines work.

Quote:
What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain?
See, here I was hoping we would get some diseases that go directly to the brain, but alas...
Quote:
I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.
Another argument from ignorance. Most of the deadly venoms are neurotoxins, which means they affect the nerves. They don't go 'directly into the brain.' Sure, they end up in the brain, because that's sorta where your blood goes, but they generally hit your heart and lungs first unless you get bit in the carotid.

Oh, and malaria? It goes to the liver. Derp.

Surely you could have picked something that actually targets the brain? There's plenty. Heaven forbid you do some research instead of playing crackpot roulette and hope something sticks.
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:52 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post


....they are not live diseases....

.
Travis, this is a bit of a grey area to some. To quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Some vaccines contain live, attenuated microorganisms. Many of these are live viruses that have been cultivated under conditions that disable their virulent properties, or which use closely-related but less dangerous organisms to produce a broad immune response; however, some are bacterial in nature. They typically provoke more durable immunological responses and are the preferred type for healthy adults. Examples include the viral diseases yellow fever, measles, rubella, and mumps and the bacterial disease typhoid. The live Mycobacterium tuberculosis vaccine developed by Calmette and Guérin is not made of a contagious strain, but contains a virulently modified strain called "BCG" used to elicit an immune response to the vaccine. The live attenuated vaccine containing strain Yersinia pestis EV is used for plague immunization.
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:54 AM   #286
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Where is your skepticism?
I've been sceptical of your claims all along.

Quote:
You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.
Once again, I don't form opinions just by thinking. There's a thing called "research" that needs to tag along.

Quote:
Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.
If there's no indications vaccines cause autism, then no, I don't think they cause autism. That's how scepticism works: "there is no evidence cars can fly, so I do not believe they can fly". Or, "there is overwhelming evidence washing your hands makes you healthier, so I believe washing your hands makes you healthier". Your approach seems to be more along the lines of "Are you seriously saying that after a hundred years, we still haven't made flying cars?! That's an outrageous claim, of course every car built after the year 2000 must be able to fly! You've fallen prey to the lies of Big [insert politically incorrect industry here]".

Have you spotted the difference yet?
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Old 31st May 2011, 07:06 AM   #287
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Reading the comments in a Huffington Post thread about vaccines I came across a scientific journal attempting once more to link childhood vaccinations to autism. The author simply makes the point that cases of autism went up at the same time as vaccination rates. Never mind the multiple studies that showed no link between childhood vaccinations and autism.
A Positive Association found between Autism Prevalence and Childhood Vaccination uptake across the U.S. Population

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A: Current Issues
Volume 74, Issue 14, 2011, Pages 903 - 916
Author: Gayle DeLonga
The same HP thread also has people claiming that vitamin C cures polio.

It seems that eradicating the woo surrounding a disease is almost as hard as eradicating a disease.
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Old 31st May 2011, 07:47 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
Travis, this is a bit of a grey area to some. To quote from Wikipedia:
Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.
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Old 31st May 2011, 08:07 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.
Cowpox.
At least, that was how it was discovered, being the association between milkmaids and resistance to smallpox...or something along those lines. Then cowpox was used for the innoculation. Whether it still is I couldn't say without googling.
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Old 31st May 2011, 08:17 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.
Agreed but to some people this just says 'it may be weaker but how do know it's not going to make you ill'. To which the answer is 'well, it may make you ill for a while and some people may be affected badly for all sorts of reasons but the population as a whole benefits'. Unfortunately in my experience of dealing with anti-vaccination believers this just opens up a huge can of worms.
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:08 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Reading the comments in a Huffington Post thread about vaccines I came across a scientific journal attempting once more to link childhood vaccinations to autism. The author simply makes the point that cases of autism went up at the same time as vaccination rates. Never mind the multiple studies that showed no link between childhood vaccinations and autism.
A Positive Association found between Autism Prevalence and Childhood Vaccination uptake across the U.S. Population

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A: Current Issues
Volume 74, Issue 14, 2011, Pages 903 - 916
Author: Gayle DeLonga
The same HP thread also has people claiming that vitamin C cures polio.

It seems that eradicating the woo surrounding a disease is almost as hard as eradicating a disease.
You should research the parameters of the studies you value so highly.
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:27 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
Agreed but to some people this just says 'it may be weaker but how do know it's not going to make you ill'. To which the answer is 'well, it may make you ill for a while and some people may be affected badly for all sorts of reasons but the population as a whole benefits'. Unfortunately in my experience of dealing with anti-vaccination believers this just opens up a huge can of worms.
If you've read my posts you're aware that the participants of the "studies" are the healthiest 40%. It bothers me that the unhealthiest 60%, the majority, are not part of the studies. I understand the why but do the studies REALLY PROVE that vaccines are safe for the majority of the children? If there is a problem with a vaccine doesn't it stand to reason the healthier children would not be affected?
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Old 31st May 2011, 03:44 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
If there is a problem with a vaccine doesn't it stand to reason the healthier children would not be affected?
.
If the problem is the vaccine, then no, it doesn't stand to reason.

If the problem one is investigating is whether a given drug causes liver problems, does it make sense to exclude those who already have such problems?

Of course it does.

If the problem one is investigating is whether a vaccine causes general health problems, does it make sense to exclude those who already have such problems?

Of course it does.
.
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Old 31st May 2011, 04:04 PM   #294
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The problem as I see it is the word" mandatory". In my state, it is mandatory that children are immunized for various diseases if they wish to attend public schools. That is a problem.
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Old 31st May 2011, 04:06 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
The problem as I see it is the word" mandatory". In my state, it is mandatory that children are immunized for various diseases if they wish to attend public schools. That is a problem.
Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?
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Old 31st May 2011, 04:14 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Tell me about your bs facts. Show me a study of the numbers of autistic children who didn't receive vaccinations.
I'm curious, what are your falsifiability conditions? What evidence would you need to see to accept that vaccines do not cause autism? Can you give just one example of what you would accept?
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Old 31st May 2011, 04:35 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?
Measles, Chicken Pox, and Rubella were never deadly diseases in the 50s or after doctors started washing their hands.

History of Smallpox & Polio Vaccines

Quote:
England was the first country in the world to adopt COMPULSORY vaccination. After about 40 years of COMPULSORY vaccination, Britain suffered the worst smallpox epidemic in its entire history with the highest death rate in history. This is but one among thousands of instances of the failure of smallpox vaccination to prevent smallpox, but it should have been enough to convince the most case hardened advocate of vaccination of the futility of the practice. In addition to being a failure as a preventive, the vaccine produces a whole train of evil side effects and iatrogenic [drug caused] diseases. It is kept alive only because of the enormous profits that are derived from the practice. pp 431-32
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin...ames/read/8803
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Old 31st May 2011, 04:40 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?
The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...
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Old 31st May 2011, 04:52 PM   #299
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I'm going to go out on a limb and question the legitimacy of rumormillnews as a source.
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:01 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.
See, there you go again, equating possibilites with facts.

Quote:
Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.
Except they're not. Live, I mean.

Quote:
What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out.
Toxin != disease, as medical professionals who specialize in either will readily tell you. You can overdose on tap water, but that doesn't mean it's not safe to drink.

Quote:
And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=7451

IIRC, skeeters contaminate, not actively inject. Do you do research on anything you say, or does it just spew forth like a babbling brook?
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:03 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
You should research the parameters of the studies you value so highly.
Such hypocrisy.
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:06 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Measles, Chicken Pox, and Rubella were never deadly diseases in the 50s or after doctors started washing their hands.
.
In the US, from 1989 to 1991, 55,622 measles cases were reported with a total of 123 measles-associated deaths. Half of the cases and deaths were in children younger than five years of age. The most important cause of this epidemic was low vaccination rates among preschool-age children.
This means that the incidence of measles death is slightly higher than the incidence of autism -- and autism doesn't kill you.

During 2003 and the first half of 2004, CDC received reports of eight varicella-related deaths. The age of the decedents ranged from 1 to 40 years. Six of the eight deaths occurred among children and adolescents aged <20 years. But it's all about the kids, right?

From 1963-1965, a rubella epidemic swept across the globe. In the United States alone, there were about 11,000 fetal deaths and 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome, a group of birth defects that can occur in an infant when its mother is infected with rubella during pregnancy. Oddly enough, one of the problems associated with CRS is




Wait for it...






Wait for it...





A significantly higher rate of ASD.



Seriously, if you didn't try to make it up as you go along, you'd not end up looking quite as foolish.

Still quite foolish, just not quite as much.
.
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My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is.
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Last edited by TSR; 31st May 2011 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:08 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and question the legitimacy of rumormillnews as a source.
So what internet source would you recommend as a source? theman.com? NIST.com? Bigpharma.com Baptist.com? Cheney.com? Rumsfeld.com

If JoAnn started a site for ideas to make money would it be likely that most would be bogus?
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Old 31st May 2011, 05:11 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...
.
Read up on "herd immunity" and get back to us...
.
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My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is.
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Old 31st May 2011, 06:16 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...
I have a feeling most, if not all, states will allow a waiver to be issued in cases where allergies would make vaccinations dangerous to a child. Herd immunity from their vaccinated peers will protect those children, for now. The idiocy of the anti-vaxxers is severely taxing the ability of herd immunity to protect the un-vaccinated, though, so folks who can't immunize their children for legitimate medical reasons should be at the front lines fighting the anti-vaxxers and their misinformation.

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Old 31st May 2011, 07:46 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
So what internet source would you recommend as a source? theman.com? NIST.com? Bigpharma.com Baptist.com? Cheney.com? Rumsfeld.com

If JoAnn started a site for ideas to make money would it be likely that most would be bogus?
Yeah...nice, but seriously I am not going to take medical history from a site like rumormillnews. How about a site about medicine and medical history that doesn't have the word rumor in the name, and isn't a conspiracy theory website.

But given that I am a baptist pharmacist Cheney/Rumsfeld supporter who is the man and is in league with the NIST....something about JoAnn too. I don't know, anything to ignore the fact of rumormillnews being a less than legitimate source.
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Old 31st May 2011, 08:37 PM   #307
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Quote:
So what internet source would you recommend as a source? theman.com? NIST.com? Bigpharma.com Baptist.com? Cheney.com? Rumsfeld.com
Quote:
If JoAnn started a site for ideas to make money would it be likely that most would be bogus?
For the third time, you don't measure the worth of web sites just by looking at who founded them, for what purpose, whether they disagree with you, or how much money they make. You do research. As a matter of fact, start by reading up on the scientific method and how it's the best tool we have.
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Old 31st May 2011, 09:14 PM   #308
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[quote=TSR;7238553]

[url="http://www.cdc.gov/features/rubella/"]From 1963-1965, a rubella epidemic swept across the globe. In the United States alone, there were about 11,000 fetal deaths and 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome, a group of birth defects that can occur in an infant when its mother is infected with rubella during pregnancy.[/URL

Quote:
In young children, rubella is usually mild, with few noticeable symptoms. They may feel feverish and have a sore throat.
Quote:
Rubella Is Dangerous for Unborn Babies

Quote:
MMR Vaccine: Preventing Rubella Disease and Birth Defects since the 1960s
Quote:
* the first dose at 12–15 months of age and
* the second dose before entering school, at 4–6 years of age.
What did we read? Rubella is mild with children.

Rubella is dangerous to unborn babies. That means the danger lies with women at child bearing age.

So why are year old babies getting a Rubella vaccination?
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Old 1st June 2011, 01:48 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and question the legitimacy of rumormillnews as a source.
Well, it's not entirely incorrect.
Britain did suffer its worst smallpox outbreak after compulsory vaccination was introduced. It was introduced in 1853, and the worldwide epidemic was in 1871/72. So 20 years, not 40.

The vaccine didn't prevent you getting the disease, quite often. It did reduce the chance of death. There are 20th century statistics showing something like a reduction from 40% to 10%. No idea how this compares with the figures for the 1870s, though.
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Old 1st June 2011, 02:26 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Originally Posted by TSR View Post

[url="http://www.cdc.gov/features/rubella/"]From 1963-1965, a rubella epidemic swept across the globe. In the United States alone, there were about 11,000 fetal deaths and 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome, a group of birth defects that can occur in an infant when its mother is infected with rubella during pregnancy.[/URL









What did we read? Rubella is mild with children.

Rubella is dangerous to unborn babies. That means the danger lies with women at child bearing age.

So why are year old babies getting a Rubella vaccination?
Was this a serious question?
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Old 1st June 2011, 03:15 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Was this a serious question?
I think we can safely conclude that CM has no idea how vaccines work...CM just knows they're eeeevil.
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Old 1st June 2011, 03:57 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition.
There have always been waivers for those who are physically unable to handle vaccinations. Herd immunity will do a decent job of protecting them.

Quote:
There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...
And another anti-vaxxer who doesn't understand how or why vaccines work. This trend is...disturbing.
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:07 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
Measles, Chicken Pox, and Rubella were never deadly diseases in the 50s or after doctors started washing their hands
Swing and a miss. All three of these are airborne diseases, washing your hands is going to do jack diddly.
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:21 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. ....
Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington View Post
I am sorry to hear that. Are they diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergers? There's quite a spectrum from a mildly Aspergers condition to what is usually labelled Autistic.
CM - I do not wish to be intrusive but I have a child who was diagnosed Aspergers (at one point Autism was considered but then dismissed) and would like to hear your experience.
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:52 AM   #315
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You gotta love the anti-vaxxer attitude of "if it isn't deadly, it isn't a problem!". I mean, who cares about impotence, crippling joints, pnuemonia, deafness....
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Old 1st June 2011, 04:53 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
This is an incredibly awful article.
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Old 1st June 2011, 06:30 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
You gotta love the anti-vaxxer attitude of "if it isn't deadly, it isn't a problem!". I mean, who cares about impotence, crippling joints, pnuemonia, deafness....
Hey, let's face it, the flu sucks even if it doesn't cripple you. You miss a couple weeks of work and you are wishing for death while stuck in bed.

Think of the all the productivity in the economy lost to things like the flu too.
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Old 1st June 2011, 09:01 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
There have always been waivers for those who are physically unable to handle vaccinations. Herd immunity will do a decent job of protecting them.


And another anti-vaxxer who doesn't understand how or why vaccines work. This trend is...disturbing.
Actually, your comment is beyond disturbing. I am going to put my son's life at risk??
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
I will not sacrifice my son for anything.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
Your inference that you have a particular set of knowledge is misplaced arrogance. I elect to have a choice, not a mandate by you or anybody else.

I never said that vaccines create anything beyond what would affect my son. Is the general public paranoid? Yes, if the public feels vaccines are necessary and should be forced on people who don't want it.

Question: should my son die just because you want him to have a vaccine?

Last edited by kmortis; 1st June 2011 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Removed to comply with Rule 12
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Old 1st June 2011, 09:03 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by excaza View Post
There have always been waivers for those who are physically unable to handle vaccinations. Herd immunity will do a decent job of protecting them.
You do not know what you are talking about... there was no waiver.
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Old 1st June 2011, 09:05 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by ladmo View Post
Actually, your comment is beyond disturbing. I am going to put my son's life at risk??
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
I will not sacrifice my son for anything.
Edited by kmortis:  Removed personalization
Your inference that you have a particular set of knowledge is misplaced arrogance. I elect to have a choice, not a mandate by you or anybody else.

I never said that vaccines create anything beyond what would affect my son. Is the general public paranoid? Yes, if the public feels vaccines are necessary and should be forced on people who don't want it.

Question: should my son die just because you want him to have a vaccine?
You seem to have read the exact opposite of what excaza posted, which is that your son should be waived mandatory vaccination due to his physical inability to handle it, but would be protected by herd immunity in the event of those who were not at risk having had their vaccinations. In effect, it's the mandatory vaccination of others that's protecting your son, and the efforts of anti-vaccination campaigners that are placing him at risk.

Dave
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