Merged: Vaccine/autism CT discussion

[excaza]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The idiocy is the belief that children, after what, 600,000 years are now becoming autistic because they are genetically disposed to. Inherited brain dysfunction. That's nutso. World wide inherited autism.

The idiocy is the belief that children after what, 600,000 years are now developing ADD because they are genetically disposed to. Inherited brain dysfunction. That's nutso. World wide inherited ADD.

You don't see the flaw at all in your logic?

Quote:

What do kids with autism have in common? Start with that and get back to planet Earth?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8FwBSITW-4

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

What do kids with autism have in common? Start with that and get back to planet Earth?

My God...they all drink WATER!

Quick, everyone! Stop drinking water!

[aggle-rithm]

Originally Posted by Travis

But how many kids get diagnosed as "mentally retarded" now? Since that almost never happens anymore I declare that vaccines have eliminated it.

They've also completely wiped out melancholia and dementia praecox.

[Grassy Knowlington]

It is difficult, to say the least, to convince someone (particularly a mother) that their child's illness or disability cannot necessarily be blamed on an event such as innoculation rather than accept that it's just one of those things that we are all at risk of to a greater or lesser degree.

Vaccinations do have side effects, that is why manufacturers have to state that there is risk on the product labelling. A drug is approved if it can be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt that the benefit outweighs the risk, but that still leaves risk. It is a fact that drugs have been released that have resulted in appalling outcomes - e.g. Thalidomide.

Take all of the above facts, add heart-rending anecdotes that a child was diagnosed autistic after some vaccine shots (yes, I know these events are coincidental), claims of curing the apparently incurable through diet or bicarbonate of soda or whatever, and you end up with a hell of an uphill battle to educate and get acceptance by some that we need to act collectively for the benefit of all even at personal risk to us or our children.

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Go spread those lies somewhere else. In the fifties I think there were over a million cases a year of measles and about 500 deaths a year. 60 years later I'm sure most of those lives would be saved by modern medicine.

'Modern medicine' would include vaccinations.

Originally Posted by Arisia

Children are born autistic, or on the autism spectrum, and subtle signs are there months before MMR vaccination takes place. Less subtle signs tend to show up around the time the MMR vaccination takes place, that doesn't mean the MMR vaccine has any connection to autism.
As for the vaccinations against HPV, my daughter got them, and like the vast majority of young women, she had no side effects whatsoever.
Humanity has eradicated one disease from the human population so far, small pox, due mostly to a vaccination program. We are so close to doing the same with other deadly diseases like polio, and we were getting there with measles, until this idiocy.

Unfortunately, human stupidity is the most resilient parasite of all.

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

My God...they all drink WATER!

Quick, everyone! Stop drinking water!

I...I can't! What have they done to me! Help!

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

Well, iron lung sound a lot like Iron Man, so it's gotta be cool, right?

Yes...it was especially...cool...how he could...only talk when...the machine...put air through...his mouth.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Go spread those lies somewhere else. In the fifties I think there were over a million cases a year of measles and about 500 deaths a year. 60 years later I'm sure most of those lives would be saved by modern medicine.

The same modern medicine you are denying.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

They've also completely wiped out melancholia and dementia praecox.

Bad bile and dark humor also seem to have been eradicated.


(except in alt-med circles)

[tsig]

Originally Posted by 000063

'Modern medicine' would include vaccinations.

Unfortunately, human stupidity is the most resilient parasite of all.

I...I can't! What have they done to me! Help!

Beer.

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

The idiocy is the belief that children, after what, 600,000 years are now becoming autistic because they are genetically disposed to.

200 000. There were no humans around 600 000 years ago.

Edit to add

Quote:

Go spread those lies somewhere else. In the fifties I think there were over a million cases a year of measles and about 500 deaths a year. 60 years later I'm sure most of those lives would be saved by modern medicine.

I couldn't care less what you think. This is a sceptic's forum, we try to base our posts on verified facts. The facts in this case are that the diseases prevented by vaccines still take lives -- like most any disease. In fact, nothing in the world has a 100% survival rate.

[000063]

Originally Posted by tsig

Beer.

Yeah, that's a good idea! I'll drink beer, and then harder and harder liquor, and eventually I won't need to drink anything at all! It's like a breatharian, except with just liquid! Thanks, tsig!

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

200 000. There were no humans around 600 000 years ago.

Edit to add
I couldn't care less what you think. This is a sceptic's forum, we try to base our posts on verified facts. The facts in this case are that the diseases prevented by vaccines still take lives -- like most any disease. In fact, nothing in the world has a 100% survival rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Evolution

Quote:

Homo sapiens idaltu (roughly translated as "elder wise human"), the other known subspecies, is now extinct.[16] Homo neanderthalensis, which became extinct 30,000 years ago, has sometimes been classified as a subspecies, "Homo sapiens neanderthalensis"; genetic studies now suggest that the functional DNA of modern humans and Neanderthals diverged 500,000 years ago.

Tell me about your bs facts. Show me a study of the numbers of autistic children who didn't receive vaccinations.

[Travis]

Unfortunately Clayton, countries with systems that could tabulate autism are also countries where all the kids get vaccines. That doesn't mean there are no kids with autism in places with no vaccines. There's just no one there to diagnose them with autism.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human#Evolution

.
... the very first para of which states:

Quote:

Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago, reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.

.
Foot bullet much?
.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Tell me about your bs facts. Show me a study of the numbers of autistic children who didn't receive vaccinations.

.
Maurice Hilleman developed the MMR vaccine starting in 1963.

The term "autism" was first used in 1911 by Eugen Bleuler.

Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger (among others) were diagnosing autism in the 1940s.

None of these gentlemen's patients could possibly have received the MMR vaccine, and yet each was diagnosed with having ASD.

Of course, then there's this, but there are lots of big words in that so let me simplify: the physical / genetic / chemical composition of an autistic brain is different than that of a non-autistic brain. Unless you can demonstrate that these differences are caused by vaccines (and further, why the vast majority of children receiving vaccines do *not* show these differences,) your lies about vaccines are shown to be just that.
.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

200 000. There were no humans around 600 000 years ago.

Edit to add
I couldn't care less what you think. This is a sceptic's forum, we try to base our posts on verified facts. The facts in this case are that the diseases prevented by vaccines still take lives -- like most any disease. In fact, nothing in the world has a 100% survival rate.

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

That's not really how they work, you know...

[Grassy Knowlington]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. ....

I am sorry to hear that. Are they diagnosed as Autistic or Aspergers? There's quite a spectrum from a mildly Aspergers condition to what is usually labelled Autistic.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Do you have any evidence it did screw up anybody's brain?

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

No. No they are not live diseases. And they do have specific dosages.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

Vaccines are not injected into the bloodstream.

[excaza]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Could they? Sure. Did they? No.

Quote:

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

Not surprisingly, the anti-vaxxer doesn't know how vaccines work.

Quote:

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain?

See, here I was hoping we would get some diseases that go directly to the brain, but alas...

Quote:

I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

Another argument from ignorance. Most of the deadly venoms are neurotoxins, which means they affect the nerves. They don't go 'directly into the brain.' Sure, they end up in the brain, because that's sorta where your blood goes, but they generally hit your heart and lungs first unless you get bit in the carotid.

Oh, and malaria? It goes to the liver. Derp.

Surely you could have picked something that actually targets the brain? There's plenty. Heaven forbid you do some research instead of playing crackpot roulette and hope something sticks.

[Grassy Knowlington]

Originally Posted by Travis

....they are not live diseases....

.

Travis, this is a bit of a grey area to some. To quote from Wikipedia:

Quote:

Some vaccines contain live, attenuated microorganisms. Many of these are live viruses that have been cultivated under conditions that disable their virulent properties, or which use closely-related but less dangerous organisms to produce a broad immune response; however, some are bacterial in nature. They typically provoke more durable immunological responses and are the preferred type for healthy adults. Examples include the viral diseases yellow fever, measles, rubella, and mumps and the bacterial disease typhoid. The live Mycobacterium tuberculosis vaccine developed by Calmette and Guérin is not made of a contagious strain, but contains a virulently modified strain called "BCG" used to elicit an immune response to the vaccine. The live attenuated vaccine containing strain Yersinia pestis EV is used for plague immunization.

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

Where is your skepticism?

I've been sceptical of your claims all along.

Quote:

You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

Once again, I don't form opinions just by thinking. There's a thing called "research" that needs to tag along.

Quote:

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out. And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

If there's no indications vaccines cause autism, then no, I don't think they cause autism. That's how scepticism works: "there is no evidence cars can fly, so I do not believe they can fly". Or, "there is overwhelming evidence washing your hands makes you healthier, so I believe washing your hands makes you healthier". Your approach seems to be more along the lines of "Are you seriously saying that after a hundred years, we still haven't made flying cars?! That's an outrageous claim, of course every car built after the year 2000 must be able to fly! You've fallen prey to the lies of Big [insert politically incorrect industry here]".

Have you spotted the difference yet?

[Kestrel]

Reading the comments in a Huffington Post thread about vaccines I came across a scientific journal attempting once more to link childhood vaccinations to autism. The author simply makes the point that cases of autism went up at the same time as vaccination rates. Never mind the multiple studies that showed no link between childhood vaccinations and autism.

A Positive Association found between Autism Prevalence and Childhood Vaccination uptake across the U.S. Population

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A: Current Issues
Volume 74, Issue 14, 2011, Pages 903 - 916
Author: Gayle DeLonga

The same HP thread also has people claiming that vitamin C cures polio.

It seems that eradicating the woo surrounding a disease is almost as hard as eradicating a disease.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington

Travis, this is a bit of a grey area to some. To quote from Wikipedia:

Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.

[Tolls]

Originally Posted by Travis

Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.

Cowpox.
At least, that was how it was discovered, being the association between milkmaids and resistance to smallpox...or something along those lines. Then cowpox was used for the innoculation. Whether it still is I couldn't say without googling.

[Grassy Knowlington]

Originally Posted by Travis

Okay, they are not the disease that they are being inoculated against. Sometimes it does work to provoke an immunological response to a deadly virus by exposure to another similar but less deadly virus. I believe that was how the Smallpox vaccine worked.

Agreed but to some people this just says 'it may be weaker but how do know it's not going to make you ill'. To which the answer is 'well, it may make you ill for a while and some people may be affected badly for all sorts of reasons but the population as a whole benefits'. Unfortunately in my experience of dealing with anti-vaccination believers this just opens up a huge can of worms.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Reading the comments in a Huffington Post thread about vaccines I came across a scientific journal attempting once more to link childhood vaccinations to autism. The author simply makes the point that cases of autism went up at the same time as vaccination rates. Never mind the multiple studies that showed no link between childhood vaccinations and autism.

A Positive Association found between Autism Prevalence and Childhood Vaccination uptake across the U.S. Population

Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health, Part A: Current Issues
Volume 74, Issue 14, 2011, Pages 903 - 916
Author: Gayle DeLonga

The same HP thread also has people claiming that vitamin C cures polio.

It seems that eradicating the woo surrounding a disease is almost as hard as eradicating a disease.

You should research the parameters of the studies you value so highly.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Grassy Knowlington

Agreed but to some people this just says 'it may be weaker but how do know it's not going to make you ill'. To which the answer is 'well, it may make you ill for a while and some people may be affected badly for all sorts of reasons but the population as a whole benefits'. Unfortunately in my experience of dealing with anti-vaccination believers this just opens up a huge can of worms.

If you've read my posts you're aware that the participants of the "studies" are the healthiest 40%. It bothers me that the unhealthiest 60%, the majority, are not part of the studies. I understand the why but do the studies REALLY PROVE that vaccines are safe for the majority of the children? If there is a problem with a vaccine doesn't it stand to reason the healthier children would not be affected?

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

If there is a problem with a vaccine doesn't it stand to reason the healthier children would not be affected?

.
If the problem is the vaccine, then no, it doesn't stand to reason.

If the problem one is investigating is whether a given drug causes liver problems, does it make sense to exclude those who already have such problems?

Of course it does.

If the problem one is investigating is whether a vaccine causes general health problems, does it make sense to exclude those who already have such problems?

Of course it does.
.

[ladmo]

The problem as I see it is the word" mandatory". In my state, it is mandatory that children are immunized for various diseases if they wish to attend public schools. That is a problem.

[beren]

Originally Posted by ladmo

The problem as I see it is the word" mandatory". In my state, it is mandatory that children are immunized for various diseases if they wish to attend public schools. That is a problem.

Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Tell me about your bs facts. Show me a study of the numbers of autistic children who didn't receive vaccinations.

I'm curious, what are your falsifiability conditions? What evidence would you need to see to accept that vaccines do not cause autism? Can you give just one example of what you would accept?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by beren

Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?

Measles, Chicken Pox, and Rubella were never deadly diseases in the 50s or after doctors started washing their hands.

History of Smallpox & Polio Vaccines

Quote:

England was the first country in the world to adopt COMPULSORY vaccination. After about 40 years of COMPULSORY vaccination, Britain suffered the worst smallpox epidemic in its entire history with the highest death rate in history. This is but one among thousands of instances of the failure of smallpox vaccination to prevent smallpox, but it should have been enough to convince the most case hardened advocate of vaccination of the futility of the practice. In addition to being a failure as a preventive, the vaccine produces a whole train of evil side effects and iatrogenic [drug caused] diseases. It is kept alive only because of the enormous profits that are derived from the practice. pp 431-32

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin...ames/read/8803

[ladmo]

Originally Posted by beren

Why is it a problem that is against the law to spread deadly disease?

Also, should parents have the right to kill their children through neglect?

The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...

[fullflavormenthol]

I'm going to go out on a limb and question the legitimacy of rumormillnews as a source.

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I know personally the parents of maybe 10 young children including my granddaughters. 3 of the little boys are autistic. Where is your skepticism? You actually think 22 different vaccines couldn't screw up a baby's brain.

See, there you go again, equating possibilites with facts.

Quote:

Vaccines aren't freaking pills with a specific dosage. Vaccines are live diseases, injected into a baby.

Except they're not. Live, I mean.

Quote:

What freaking disease goes directly into the blood stream and directly into the brain? I guess the closest thing in nature would be snake venom and we all know how that works out.

Toxin != disease, as medical professionals who specialize in either will readily tell you. You can overdose on tap water, but that doesn't mean it's not safe to drink.

Quote:

And then there's mosquitoes injecting malaria into the bloodstream.

http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=7451

IIRC, skeeters contaminate, not actively inject. Do you do research on anything you say, or does it just spew forth like a babbling brook?

[000063]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

You should research the parameters of the studies you value so highly.

Such hypocrisy.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Measles, Chicken Pox, and Rubella were never deadly diseases in the 50s or after doctors started washing their hands.

.
In the US, from 1989 to 1991, 55,622 measles cases were reported with a total of 123 measles-associated deaths. Half of the cases and deaths were in children younger than five years of age. The most important cause of this epidemic was low vaccination rates among preschool-age children. This means that the incidence of measles death is slightly higher than the incidence of autism -- and autism doesn't kill you.

During 2003 and the first half of 2004, CDC received reports of eight varicella-related deaths. The age of the decedents ranged from 1 to 40 years. Six of the eight deaths occurred among children and adolescents aged <20 years. But it's all about the kids, right?

From 1963-1965, a rubella epidemic swept across the globe. In the United States alone, there were about 11,000 fetal deaths and 20,000 infants born with congenital rubella syndrome, a group of birth defects that can occur in an infant when its mother is infected with rubella during pregnancy. Oddly enough, one of the problems associated with CRS is




Wait for it...






Wait for it...





A significantly higher rate of ASD.



Seriously, if you didn't try to make it up as you go along, you'd not end up looking quite as foolish.

Still quite foolish, just not quite as much.
.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by fullflavormenthol

I'm going to go out on a limb and question the legitimacy of rumormillnews as a source.

So what internet source would you recommend as a source? theman.com? NIST.com? Bigpharma.com Baptist.com? Cheney.com? Rumsfeld.com

If JoAnn started a site for ideas to make money would it be likely that most would be bogus?

[TSR]

Originally Posted by ladmo

The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...

.
Read up on "herd immunity" and get back to us...
.

[Arisia]

Originally Posted by ladmo

The false dychotomy of assuming the spreadingof a disease if not inoculated is notated. My child was allergic to certain vaccines due to an anaphylaxis condition. There was no way I would give him the required vaccine just so a paranoid condition could be satisfied. He never contracted any of the diseases the vaccines were targeting...

I have a feeling most, if not all, states will allow a waiver to be issued in cases where allergies would make vaccinations dangerous to a child. Herd immunity from their vaccinated peers will protect those children, for now. The idiocy of the anti-vaxxers is severely taxing the ability of herd immunity to protect the un-vaccinated, though, so folks who can't immunize their children for legitimate medical reasons should be at the front lines fighting the anti-vaxxers and their misinformation.