Jon Ronson's "The Psychopath Test"

INRM · 23rd May 2011, 08:08 PM

Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic?

Scott Sommers · 23rd May 2011, 08:24 PM

This topic has been talked about ad nauseum. Many of the Truthers here and on other forums talk openly about being treated by doctors, having hallucinations and taking medication. There is a Truth/Holocaust denier who is a regular on this forum who speaks about his having been involuntrily committed. Others here have talkde here and and on other forums about their treatment for alcohol and drug disorders. This is so common here, it is routine. In fact, this situation is so prevelant among members of the 'Truth' community, they themselves speak openly about it.

So it's not an issue of labeling people as mentally ill because they are advocates for a 9/11 Truth. Some sizable portion of those involved in this were labeled as such for reasons independent of their belief system

Sword_Of_Truth · 23rd May 2011, 10:29 PM

Newsflash for you, INRM; those who "question the official story" are mentally ill and narcissistic.

Dave Rogers · 24th May 2011, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by INRM

Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic?

If so, it's inaccurate. Some of them are just plain stupid.

Dave

little grey rabbit · 24th May 2011, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

There is a Truth/Holocaust denier who is a regular on this forum who speaks about his having been involuntrily committed.

Who is this miscreant? I am not really a Truther per se, anyone who wants to attack Americans has my support.
[some may find the following lyrics "Kill Americans" distasteful - discretion advised]
http://artists.letssingit.com/tism-l...ricans-cchfm25

Au contraire, Scott, if you wanted to have another lash, I'ld even hold your coat.

000063 · 24th May 2011, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Newsflash for you, INRM; those who "question the official story" are mentally ill and narcissistic.

No, that's just skepticism. It's when they continue to do so in spite of all the verifying evidence that they're probably nutjobs.

Scott Sommers · 24th May 2011, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by little grey rabbit

Who is this miscreant? I am not really a Truther per se, anyone who wants to attack Americans has my support.
[some may find the following lyrics "Kill Americans" distasteful - discretion advised]
http://artists.letssingit.com/tism-l...ricans-cchfm25

Au contraire, Scott, if you wanted to have another lash, I'ld even hold your coat.

I am confused by your response. In fact, there are several members of the Conspiracy Forum that I know of who fit this description - really.

little grey rabbit · 24th May 2011, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

I am confused by your response. In fact, there are several members of the Conspiracy Forum that I know of who fit this description - really.

Nothing would surprise me more than you should be demonstrating your dishonesty yet again

However charitably I shall with-hold judgement while you pony up the list of Holocaust Denier/Truthers on this forum who say they have been involuntarily committed.

No hurry.

Scott Sommers · 24th May 2011, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by little grey rabbit

Nothing would surprise me more than you should be demonstrating your dishonesty yet again

However charitably I shall with-hold judgement while you pony up the list of Holocaust Denier/Truthers on this forum who say they have been involuntarily committed.

No hurry.

I suppose you're right. There are 2 people I am thinking of who have posted here that roughly fit the description. As you point out, they were not involuntarily committed, but one of them has written elsewhere about being treated by physicians for alcohol/drug problems and the other talked elsewhere about being medicated for paranoid thoughts he was having. Are there others?

Sorry about that. I'm not very good with details. All this talk about faking the Internet and Nazis hiding inside a hollow Moon has me disoriented about things. I appreciate your help straightening out the facts on this.

timhau · 24th May 2011, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by INRM

Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic?

Actually, reality itself is a big scam designed to make Truthers look bad.

ETA: And Holocaust deniers too, of course. I don't want anyone to feel left out.

The Platypus · 24th May 2011, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by INRM

Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic?

Reality is a better explanation.

Just about everyone that has encountered 9/11, CT kooks can easily see that many of you are genuinely mentally ill, narcissistic, etc. Besides that, y'all run around obsessively regurgitating crazy claims from laughable sources, and backing them up only by employing juvenile antics, total dishonesty, and every snake oil salesman tactic there is. Foaming at the mouth desperate to recruit everyone into your delusions under the guise of "saving" and "awakening" us all, like a bunch crazed programmed cult drones. These things sure make you look crazy to me. But to y'all, the cult is never wrong about anything, ever, which makes you look crazy as well. So when people say this, out comes this cult damage control mechanism, that everyone only says y'all are crazy because they trying to unfairly label you as crazy just because you "question" 9/11, as a way to discredit you.

and how crazy you look goes up again...

This is just using crazy to cover up more crazy and akin to how liars cover their lies, with more lies. There's nothing weird here at all, it's not everyone and everything else, it's all you. Either y'all are crazy, or your just so sucked into this cult, so over-invested, that you have to cling ever tighter to the delusions, rather than let the delusions all collapse and admit to yourself that you've bet the farm on the wrong horse.

Y'all can't to admit that to yourselves though because most of you are in too deep, and have done so much damage to yourselves and sacrificed so much, and thus, the cult can never be wrong, ever, about anything... Y'all have given up all reality, turned traitor on your own people, now siding with every enemy. You've disrespected innocent victims, lied constantly and said extremely disgusting things over what is a horrible tragedy not a game. You've made sick disgusting accusations about everyone, and much more. Allot of y'all have turned on friends and family members, and isolated yourselves because you are so obsessed with spewing this nonsense. You've stopped thinking for yourself and now y'all just run around in private, in the public and on the internet making fools of yourselves obsessively trying to recruit for this cult. Most times, the 9/11 CT has lead to buying into another CT and another and another... Turning back can't happen, because it's too hard now to admit how wrong y'all have been. That y'all have been fools because you are so stupid and/or gullible you've been brainwashed by one of the dumbest lunatic fringe cults in the world via weak and obvious lies on the internet from other crazy and shady idiots.

INRM · 25th May 2011, 07:46 PM

Would anybody label the truthers as narcissistic -- not the people proposing the theories, but the people believing them.

That doesn't seem right

Scott Sommers · 26th May 2011, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by INRM

Would anybody label the truthers as narcissistic -- not the people proposing the theories, but the people believing them.

That doesn't seem right

I am not a medical doctor, nor am I trained in psychiatric diagnosis at any level. I have talked with hundreds of Truthers on Facebook and am familiar with many, many more. In fact, I have had some form of contact with almost everyone who attends the 9/11 Truth demonstrations held in New York by We Are Change.

I don't know what a narcissist is. I am not familiar with the meaning of the word in its psychiatric sense. If this is meant to ask are mst Truthers mentall ill people. I would have say that in my lay judgement, definately not. Are Truthers disturbed people in the lay sense of the word? Definately.

I have said many times that Truthers in the USA are part of a right-wing backlash. They increasingly represent young, unsuccessful white men. Most of the Truthers I am aware of in the USA are Christians. Many believe or suspect that Obama is the anti-Christ or at least connected to the anti-Christ One World Government.

You would not be able to talk to them without feeling these are disturbed people. They have trouble with their friends and family. They are unpleasant. I don't like most of them, although I think some are trustworthy people.

How's that?

Joey McGee · 26th May 2011, 12:28 AM

The thing about viruses is that they affect tend to effect those with with weaker immune systems. Memetic viruses are the exact same. A relatively healthy person can still catch the twoof virus, it's just that they'll probably reject it sooner than later.

At a certain point, sane society needs to talk honestly about what the problem is with the truthers. Obviously we're going to see some whining about ad homineming, but really, people are just trying to figure out how to help you. We do laugh and we do mock but I think at the end of the day, it's just sad.

Cl1mh4224rd · 26th May 2011, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Joey McGee

The thing about viruses is that they affect tend to effect those with with weaker immune systems. Memetic viruses are the exact same. A relatively healthy person can still catch the twoof virus, it's just that they'll probably reject it sooner than later.

Interesting. One might be able to also apply herd immunity. Some people are naturally immune, others can become immune, while still others will always be susceptible. You're not going to wipe out conspiracy theories, but you can limit their spread by developing the critical thinking skills of some majority of the population ("vaccinating"). The susceptible folks will then have less chance of exposure to conspiracy theories.

The big problem with applying herd immunity to bad ideas nowadays is the Internet. It allows for easier and direct exposure to these bad ideas. Sure, the susceptible will still be the only ones to catch the disease, but the infection rate would still be much higher than it could be...

*sigh*

Oh well...

cwalner · 26th May 2011, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

Would anybody label the truthers as narcissistic -- not the people proposing the theories, but the people believing them.

That doesn't seem right

INRM, 9/11 truthers (and almost any other CT follower) see themselves as privy to some secret knowledge that everybody else is too stupid or asleep to see ("wake up sheeple!!").

That is a behaviour consistent with narcissism.

Combine that with the fact that people who believe in one CT, tend to believe in many of them. This indicates the difference is with the personality of the believer, not the validity of the belief.

Therefore it is valid to make the claim that 9/11 truthers exhibit narcissistic behaviour.

INRM · 27th May 2011, 03:21 PM

CWalner,

It could be evidence of narcissism, but the fact that they are trying to disseminate the information -- is that consistent with narcissism.

cwalner · 27th May 2011, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

CWalner,

It could be evidence of narcissism, but the fact that they are trying to disseminate the information -- is that consistent with narcissism.

absolutely. They want others to pay attention to them.

INRM · 28th May 2011, 06:30 PM

cwalner

Well, people like Alex Jones, maybe though I sincerely doubt that all 9/11 truthers would be narcissists.

cwalner · 28th May 2011, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

cwalner

Well, people like Alex Jones, maybe though I sincerely doubt that all 9/11 truthers would be narcissists.

Of course, not all are. What am I saying is that one critical piece of the CT mindset (9/11 or any other) is the belief that the CT'er has special knowledge or can see patterns that others can't

That very belief is a form of narcissism, so it is very valid to claim that CT'ers display narcissistic personality traits. Where you are getting confused, is that you think all narcissists are at the extreme end (such as Alex Jones, Donald Trump, or (to give an example of a non-CT narcissist) Dennis Rodman). Like all personality traits, narcissism is not binary, but is a spectrum. For example, many celebrities probably have at least a small degree of narcissism (its what drives them to seek the attention of being a celebrity). This is a similar degree that I would posit is the case for most rank and file CTers.

Scott Sommers · 28th May 2011, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by cwalner

Of course, not all are. What am I saying is that one critical piece of the CT mindset (9/11 or any other) is the belief that the CT'er has special knowledge or can see patterns that others can't

That very belief is a form of narcissism, so it is very valid to claim that CT'ers display narcissistic personality traits. Where you are getting confused, is that you think all narcissists are at the extreme end (such as Alex Jones, Donald Trump, or (to give an example of a non-CT narcissist) Dennis Rodman). Like all personality traits, narcissism is not binary, but is a spectrum. For example, many celebrities probably have at least a small degree of narcissism (its what drives them to seek the attention of being a celebrity). This is a similar degree that I would posit is the case for most rank and file CTers.

This is interesting. You are not defining narcissism as a pathology but as a personality characteristic that exists in a distribution and only those at the extreme as pathological. The question might be, is narcissism necessary to believe in a 9/11 conspiracy? Is narcissism necessary to believe in any idea for which the evidence is overwhelmingly in a different direction? So you are making the issue of irrational belief separate from the issue of logical reasoning skills. A person with perfectly normal or even above average reasoning skills and understanding of logic may fall victim to irrational beliefs because of some mechanism that involves narcissism.

TS- · 28th May 2011, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic?

You realize the problem you run into here, is that you're proposing a paranoid-sounding theory as an explanation for criticism. Because of this paradox, you would actually seem to be supporting Ronson's point.

nzric · 30th May 2011, 02:42 AM

My interpretation from the book was that Ronson wasn't taking aim at the truthers. His focus was more on why the media decided that some 'milder' Truther claims were seen as newsworthy (for instance when they hint at vague, shadowy conspiracy) but others like the 'no planes' claim or the "truther as messiah" one weren't.

Also, he was focusing on the idea of psychopathy. He made it fairly clear that someone doesn't have to be psychopath to be deranged.

23rd May 2011, 08:08 PM	#1
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Jon Ronson's "The Psychopath Test" Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic?
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Last edited by INRM; 23rd May 2011 at 08:09 PM.

23rd May 2011, 08:24 PM	#2
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	This topic has been talked about ad nauseum. Many of the Truthers here and on other forums talk openly about being treated by doctors, having hallucinations and taking medication. There is a Truth/Holocaust denier who is a regular on this forum who speaks about his having been involuntrily committed. Others here have talkde here and and on other forums about their treatment for alcohol and drug disorders. This is so common here, it is routine. In fact, this situation is so prevelant among members of the 'Truth' community, they themselves speak openly about it. So it's not an issue of labeling people as mentally ill because they are advocates for a 9/11 Truth. Some sizable portion of those involved in this were labeled as such for reasons independent of their belief system
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy

24th May 2011, 02:05 AM	#4
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In a world lit only by fire. Posts: 17,894	Originally Posted by INRM Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic? If so, it's inaccurate. Some of them are just plain stupid. Dave
	__________________ "We will punish the murderer together. Our punishment will be more generosity, more tolerance and more democracy." - Fabian Stang, Mayor of Oslo SSKCAS, covert member

24th May 2011, 05:16 AM	#6
000063 Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Not America. Posts: 4,738	Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth Newsflash for you, INRM; those who "question the official story" *are* mentally ill and narcissistic. No, that's just skepticism. It's when they continue to do so in spite of all the verifying evidence that they're probably nutjobs.
	__________________ No, I'd like you to answer the question in two, simple, coherent sentences. ... That's how you present credible arguments in written form. -ergo, on me giving him a 2 digit number I can think of two reasons why bedunkers are often so loathe to explain their theories using plain, concise language--words even. - ergo

24th May 2011, 05:26 AM	#7
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by little grey rabbit Who is this miscreant? I am not really a Truther per se, anyone who wants to attack Americans has my support. [some may find the following lyrics "Kill Americans" distasteful - discretion advised] http://artists.letssingit.com/tism-l...ricans-cchfm25 Au contraire, Scott, if you wanted to have another lash, I'ld even hold your coat. I am confused by your response. In fact, there are several members of the Conspiracy Forum that I know of who fit this description - really.
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy

23rd May 2011, 10:29 PM	#3
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Newsflash for you, INRM; those who "question the official story" *are* mentally ill and narcissistic.

24th May 2011, 05:10 AM	#5
little grey rabbit Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,167	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers There is a Truth/Holocaust denier who is a regular on this forum who speaks about his having been involuntrily committed. Who is this miscreant? I am not really a Truther per se, anyone who wants to attack Americans has my support. [some may find the following lyrics "Kill Americans" distasteful - discretion advised] http://artists.letssingit.com/tism-l...ricans-cchfm25 Au contraire, Scott, if you wanted to have another lash, I'ld even hold your coat.

24th May 2011, 05:29 AM	#8
little grey rabbit Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,167	Originally Posted by Scott Sommers I am confused by your response. In fact, there are several members of the Conspiracy Forum that I know of who fit this description - really. Nothing would surprise me more than you should be demonstrating your dishonesty yet again However charitably I shall with-hold judgement while you pony up the list of Holocaust Denier/Truthers on this forum who say they have been involuntarily committed. No hurry.

24th May 2011, 06:23 AM	#9
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by little grey rabbit Nothing would surprise me more than you should be demonstrating your dishonesty yet again However charitably I shall with-hold judgement while you pony up the list of Holocaust Denier/Truthers on this forum who say they have been involuntarily committed. No hurry. I suppose you're right. There are 2 people I am thinking of who have posted here that roughly fit the description. As you point out, they were not involuntarily committed, but one of them has written elsewhere about being treated by physicians for alcohol/drug problems and the other talked elsewhere about being medicated for paranoid thoughts he was having. Are there others? Sorry about that. I'm not very good with details. All this talk about faking the Internet and Nazis hiding inside a hollow Moon has me disoriented about things. I appreciate your help straightening out the facts on this.
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy Last edited by Scott Sommers; 24th May 2011 at 06:25 AM.

24th May 2011, 06:38 AM	#10
timhau NWO Litter Technician Join Date: May 2004 Location: East of Sweeden Posts: 9,694	Originally Posted by INRM Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic? Actually, reality itself is a big scam designed to make Truthers look bad. ETA: And Holocaust deniers too, of course. I don't want anyone to feel left out.
	__________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me. - Emo Philips Last edited by timhau; 24th May 2011 at 06:40 AM.

24th May 2011, 08:53 AM	#11
The Platypus Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,787	Originally Posted by INRM Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic? Reality is a better explanation. Just about everyone that has encountered 9/11, CT kooks can easily see that many of you are genuinely mentally ill, narcissistic, etc. Besides that, y'all run around obsessively regurgitating crazy claims from laughable sources, and backing them up only by employing juvenile antics, total dishonesty, and every snake oil salesman tactic there is. Foaming at the mouth desperate to recruit everyone into your delusions under the guise of "saving" and "awakening" us all, like a bunch crazed programmed cult drones. These things sure make you look crazy to me. But to y'all, the cult is never wrong about anything, ever, which makes you look crazy as well. So when people say this, out comes this cult damage control mechanism, that everyone only says y'all are crazy because they trying to unfairly label you as crazy just because you "question" 9/11, as a way to discredit you. and how crazy you look goes up again... This is just using crazy to cover up more crazy and akin to how liars cover their lies, with more lies. There's nothing weird here at all, it's not everyone and everything else, it's all you. Either y'all are crazy, or your just so sucked into this cult, so over-invested, that you have to cling ever tighter to the delusions, rather than let the delusions all collapse and admit to yourself that you've bet the farm on the wrong horse. Y'all can't to admit that to yourselves though because most of you are in too deep, and have done so much damage to yourselves and sacrificed so much, and thus, the cult can never be wrong, ever, about anything... Y'all have given up all reality, turned traitor on your own people, now siding with every enemy. You've disrespected innocent victims, lied constantly and said extremely disgusting things over what is a horrible tragedy not a game. You've made sick disgusting accusations about everyone, and much more. Allot of y'all have turned on friends and family members, and isolated yourselves because you are so obsessed with spewing this nonsense. You've stopped thinking for yourself and now y'all just run around in private, in the public and on the internet making fools of yourselves obsessively trying to recruit for this cult. Most times, the 9/11 CT has lead to buying into another CT and another and another... Turning back can't happen, because it's too hard now to admit how wrong y'all have been. That y'all have been fools because you are so stupid and/or gullible you've been brainwashed by one of the dumbest lunatic fringe cults in the world via weak and obvious lies on the internet from other crazy and shady idiots.
	__________________ I'll go with the qualified experts, over some ranting guy on the internet that claims he has "the truth". Always beware of those that overuse, capitalize and blanket themselves in them word "truth". I may not always know the truth, but i do know when i'm being lied too. Last edited by The Platypus; 24th May 2011 at 09:02 AM.

25th May 2011, 07:46 PM	#12
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	Would anybody label the truthers as narcissistic -- not the people proposing the theories, but the people believing them. That doesn't seem right
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

26th May 2011, 12:12 AM	#13
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by INRM Would anybody label the truthers as narcissistic -- not the people proposing the theories, but the people believing them. That doesn't seem right I am not a medical doctor, nor am I trained in psychiatric diagnosis at any level. I have talked with hundreds of Truthers on Facebook and am familiar with many, many more. In fact, I have had some form of contact with almost everyone who attends the 9/11 Truth demonstrations held in New York by We Are Change. I don't know what a narcissist is. I am not familiar with the meaning of the word in its psychiatric sense. If this is meant to ask are mst Truthers mentall ill people. I would have say that in my lay judgement, definately not. Are Truthers disturbed people in the lay sense of the word? Definately. I have said many times that Truthers in the USA are part of a right-wing backlash. They increasingly represent young, unsuccessful white men. Most of the Truthers I am aware of in the USA are Christians. Many believe or suspect that Obama is the anti-Christ or at least connected to the anti-Christ One World Government. You would not be able to talk to them without feeling these are disturbed people. They have trouble with their friends and family. They are unpleasant. I don't like most of them, although I think some are trustworthy people. How's that?
	__________________ for the original publication Who Still Believes in 9/11 Conspiracies? for Google Books Becoming Taiwan: From Colonialism to Democracy

26th May 2011, 12:28 AM	#14
Joey McGee Transcendental Naturalist Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,133	The thing about viruses is that they affect tend to effect those with with weaker immune systems. Memetic viruses are the exact same. A relatively healthy person can still catch the twoof virus, it's just that they'll probably reject it sooner than later. At a certain point, sane society needs to talk honestly about what the problem is with the truthers. Obviously we're going to see some whining about ad homineming, but really, people are just trying to figure out how to help you. We do laugh and we do mock but I think at the end of the day, it's just sad.
	__________________ How do I know that this is so? By looking! Last edited by Joey McGee; 26th May 2011 at 12:30 AM.

26th May 2011, 10:41 AM	#15
Cl1mh4224rd Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 6,618	Originally Posted by Joey McGee The thing about viruses is that they affect tend to effect those with with weaker immune systems. Memetic viruses are the exact same. A relatively healthy person can still catch the twoof virus, it's just that they'll probably reject it sooner than later. Interesting. One might be able to also apply herd immunity. Some people are naturally immune, others can become immune, while still others will always be susceptible. You're not going to wipe out conspiracy theories, but you can limit their spread by developing the critical thinking skills of some majority of the population ("vaccinating"). The susceptible folks will then have less chance of exposure to conspiracy theories. The big problem with applying herd immunity to bad ideas nowadays is the Internet. It allows for easier and direct exposure to these bad ideas. Sure, the susceptible will still be the only ones to catch the disease, but the infection rate would still be much higher than it could be... sigh Oh well...

26th May 2011, 12:19 PM	#16
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	Originally Posted by INRM Would anybody label the truthers as narcissistic -- not the people proposing the theories, but the people believing them. That doesn't seem right INRM, 9/11 truthers (and almost any other CT follower) see themselves as privy to some secret knowledge that everybody else is too stupid or asleep to see ("wake up sheeple!!"). That is a behaviour consistent with narcissism. Combine that with the fact that people who believe in one CT, tend to believe in many of them. This indicates the difference is with the personality of the believer, not the validity of the belief. Therefore it is valid to make the claim that 9/11 truthers exhibit narcissistic behaviour.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

27th May 2011, 03:21 PM	#17
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	CWalner, It could be evidence of narcissism, but the fact that they are trying to disseminate the information -- is that consistent with narcissism.
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

27th May 2011, 09:15 PM	#18
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	Originally Posted by INRM CWalner, It could be evidence of narcissism, but the fact that they are trying to disseminate the information -- is that consistent with narcissism. absolutely. They want others to pay attention to them.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

28th May 2011, 06:30 PM	#19
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490	cwalner Well, people like Alex Jones, maybe though I sincerely doubt that all 9/11 truthers would be narcissists.
INRM Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,490

28th May 2011, 07:27 PM	#20
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,708	Originally Posted by INRM cwalner Well, people like Alex Jones, maybe though I sincerely doubt that all 9/11 truthers would be narcissists. Of course, not all are. What am I saying is that one critical piece of the CT mindset (9/11 or any other) is the belief that the CT'er has special knowledge or can see patterns that others can't That very belief is a form of narcissism, so it is very valid to claim that CT'ers display narcissistic personality traits. Where you are getting confused, is that you think all narcissists are at the extreme end (such as Alex Jones, Donald Trump, or (to give an example of a non-CT narcissist) Dennis Rodman). Like all personality traits, narcissism is not binary, but is a spectrum. For example, many celebrities probably have at least a small degree of narcissism (its what drives them to seek the attention of being a celebrity). This is a similar degree that I would posit is the case for most rank and file CTers.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

28th May 2011, 08:46 PM	#21
Scott Sommers Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,643	Originally Posted by cwalner Of course, not all are. What am I saying is that one critical piece of the CT mindset (9/11 or any other) is the belief that the CT'er has special knowledge or can see patterns that others can't That very belief is a form of narcissism, so it is very valid to claim that CT'ers display narcissistic personality traits. Where you are getting confused, is that you think all narcissists are at the extreme end (such as Alex Jones, Donald Trump, or (to give an example of a non-CT narcissist) Dennis Rodman). Like all personality traits, narcissism is not binary, but is a spectrum. For example, many celebrities probably have at least a small degree of narcissism (its what drives them to seek the attention of being a celebrity). This is a similar degree that I would posit is the case for most rank and file CTers. This is interesting. You are not defining narcissism as a pathology but as a personality characteristic that exists in a distribution and only those at the extreme as pathological. The question might be, is narcissism necessary to believe in a 9/11 conspiracy? Is narcissism necessary to believe in any idea for which the evidence is overwhelmingly in a different direction? So you are making the issue of irrational belief separate from the issue of logical reasoning skills. A person with perfectly normal or even above average reasoning skills and understanding of logic may fall victim to irrational beliefs because of some mechanism that involves narcissism.
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28th May 2011, 09:54 PM	#22
TS- Scholar Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 78	Originally Posted by INRM Here's an interesting if not weird idea: What if Jon Ronson's critique of 9/11 truthers is some kind of way of labeling people who question the official story of 9/11 as being mentally ill or narcissistic? You realize the problem you run into here, is that you're proposing a paranoid-sounding theory as an explanation for criticism. Because of this paradox, you would actually seem to be supporting Ronson's point.
TS- Scholar Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 78

30th May 2011, 02:42 AM	#23
nzric Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 214	My interpretation from the book was that Ronson wasn't taking aim at the truthers. His focus was more on why the media decided that some 'milder' Truther claims were seen as newsworthy (for instance when they hint at vague, shadowy conspiracy) but others like the 'no planes' claim or the "truther as messiah" one weren't. Also, he was focusing on the idea of psychopathy. He made it fairly clear that someone doesn't have to be psychopath to be deranged.
nzric Thinker Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 214	__________________ A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.