Merged: "The Word"/Reason/Wisdom, not "Jesus" in the usual sense, is The Way to Salvation/God

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by DC

gjpogiatzis is God's lover?

Did they both feel the Earth move?

[Sawbones79]

Oh, and I just have to protest against seeing lord Batman mentioned amongst such rabble as Harry Potter and, Cthulhu forbid, "Twilight" characters.
On a more serious note, a cursory glance at the OP gives at least a slight reason to suspect that the poster is somewhat mentally unbalanced. Though I'm personally inclined to answer that mass of words with mockery (as above), it's really not a nice thing to do if the poster is actually mentally ill. Any advice from long-time posters on how to answer those posts that seem clearly deranged?

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Sawbones79

Oh, and I just have to protest against seeing lord Batman mentioned amongst such rabble as Harry Potter and, Cthulhu forbid, "Twilight" characters.
On a more serious note, a cursory glance at the OP gives at least a slight reason to suspect that the poster is somewhat mentally unbalanced. Though I'm personally inclined to answer that mass of words with mockery (as above), it's really not a nice thing to do if the poster is actually mentally ill. Any advice from long-time posters on how to answer those posts that seem clearly deranged?

I will emphatically agree that it is inappropriate to mock people with illnesses. On the other hand, I am not convinced that there is enough evidence to even bring the issue up. I watched a few minutes of the opening poster's video and have read all his posts in this thread. Yes, he is passionate about his topic. The unusual formatting could be the result of technological issues rather than mental issues.


ETA: OK, I just spent some time on his website and I do find the Santa=Satan and Obama is the Anti-Christ stuff a bit chilling. See for yourselves: http://www.primaryproofsofchristianity.com/ But, again, not everyone who believes that Obama is a supernatural being bent on destroying the Earth is mentally ill - for instance 24% of Republicans and 14% of Independents responded "yes" when a Mar 2010 Harris poll asked if it were possible that President Obama is the Anti-Christ.

I'm going to need more evidence before I swing over to your side and suggest that we ask posters to limit the mockery.

[Sawbones79]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I will emphatically agree that it is inappropriate to mock people with illnesses. On the other hand, I am not convinced that there is enough evidence to even bring the issue up. I watched a few minutes of the opening poster's video and have read all his posts in this thread. Yes, he is passionate about his topic. The unusual formatting could be the result of technological issues rather than mental issues.

I probably over-reacted I guess. Back to the topic at hand, then.
If I understand it correctly, the OP is making a statement implying that religious dogma per se isn't what'll get you into heaven, and that you should carefully consider your morals and lifestyle in order to reach a state of wisdom and goodness?

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Sawbones79

I probably over-reacted I guess. Back to the topic at hand, then.
If I understand it correctly, the OP is making a statement implying that religious dogma per se isn't what'll get you into heaven, and that you should carefully consider your morals and lifestyle in order to reach a state of wisdom and goodness?

I thought that too until I poked around his Facebook site and personal website (see ETA in my previous post). We are talking to a Saved-by-the-blood-of-Jesus hard-core Christian who thought he could sneak in with vague claims that all religions hold truths about the world. He's here to tell us about the Bible, which he has studied very hard for three years!

Newsflash, Sparky: the Bible is full of contradictions, nonsense, and myths. It contains more post-dictions than pre-dictions and fails miserably by any objective standard. Go peddle craziness somewhere else, we are not buying it here.

[HansMustermann]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I will emphatically agree that it is inappropriate to mock people with illnesses.

I guess it's up to me to be the resident flaming a-hole who doesn't see anything wrong with mocking the mentally ill who come preaching.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for their getting a subsidized treatment or whatever they need for it. But stupid ideas do need to be mocked, as do the people who preach them. Not for being mentally ill, but for coming preaching something stupid instead of going to a doctor. And generally, I see no reason to let someone stumble in and think that the crazy guy spewing nonsense is perfectly on par with the other guy actually having the data and evidence, and you can just take your pick which to believe, just because nobody wants to hurt the crazy guy's feelings.

[Sawbones79]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I guess it's up to me to be the resident flaming a-hole who doesn't see anything wrong with mocking the mentally ill who come preaching.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for their getting a subsidized treatment or whatever they need for it. But stupid ideas do need to be mocked, as do the people who preach them. Not for being mentally ill, but for coming preaching something stupid instead of going to a doctor. And generally, I see no reason to let someone stumble in and think that the crazy guy spewing nonsense is perfectly on par with the other guy actually having the data and evidence, and you can just take your pick which to believe, just because nobody wants to hurt the crazy guy's feelings.

Agree on the part about meeting and refuting delusional ideas, I hadn't considered how a discussion might seem to an outside observer so to speak.
However, I need to point out that mocking a mentally ill patient for preaching something stupid instead of seeing a doctor isn't really different from mocking them for the illness as, in cases of severe psychiatric disease, the behaviour in itself is part of the illness. Berating a psychotic for speaking gibberish is kind of like berating a paraplegic for sitting down, you're criticising a behaviour that's not subject to choice.
But, as Ladewig pointed out, I personally jumped the gun on the mental health issue in this thread, and I apologize to the OP for that.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by HansMustermann

I guess it's up to me to be the resident flaming a-hole who doesn't see anything wrong with mocking the mentally ill who come preaching.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm all for their getting a subsidized treatment or whatever they need for it. But stupid ideas do need to be mocked, as do the people who preach them. Not for being mentally ill, but for coming preaching something stupid instead of going to a doctor. And generally, I see no reason to let someone stumble in and think that the crazy guy spewing nonsense is perfectly on par with the other guy actually having the data and evidence, and you can just take your pick which to believe, just because nobody wants to hurt the crazy guy's feelings.

Yes, stupid ideas need to be mocked, but it is also usful to set priorities. Helping a severley mentally-ill person seek help is far, far more importnat than pointing out the absurdities in far-fetched theories and delusions [DISCLAIMER: I am still not convincd that this poster falls into the mentally ill category at all. I personally AM willing to mock his ideas. If he were to claim that he knows what God wants for us because he is God, then I would whistle a different tune]

America is not what one would call the Promised Land when it comes to seeking and receiving help for mental illness, therefore it is all the more important to help that person see a professional. [DISCLAIMER 2: amateurs are not qualified to diagnose mental illnesses in person much less over the internet. What I am merely suggesting is encouraging people who have a difficult time perceiving reality to see a medical professional. Everyone should see a doctor on a regular basis, in those cases I am simply suggesting that said people see a doctor sooner rather than later]. Mocking delusional people is as boorish as seeing a chemo-therapy patient and saying "ha,ha, that guy has no hair at all."

ETA: there. Now that I've said all that, let's get back to the mocking! Obviously, President Obama's foreign sounding name helps kooks subscribe to the Anti-Christ theory. Does his race play a factor?

[HansMustermann]

So... he's just typing in fingers?

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

in all religions, "salvation" is from suffering & "sin". But what "sin" is and what "good" is is the big mystery. Socrates was the wisest b/c he knew he knew nothing and was inquiring about the "good" everyday.

the word "salvation" in Greek is related to the word "safe"; in the Psalms, King David is constantly praising God for "saving" him from "the bloody man," "the lion's mouth," etc. All might seem quiet on the western front now! But "when they say peace, peace, sudden destruction."-1Thess.5:3. So I urge you friends "boast not of tomorrow, you know not what the day may bring."-Pro.27:1. Marcus Aurelius states that the chief virtue is to live each day as if it is your last. What is your priority in life? Socrates says there is NO BETTER THING than to examine himself and others about GOODNESS & all the other subjects of which he speaks in Plato's Dialogues, and that "life without this sort of examination is not worth living." Seek "WISDOM-a tree of life."-Pro.3:18 New Age=Age of HarryPotters/Batmans/Vampires/Werewolves like in "Twilight." "Seek meekness & RIGHTEOUSNESS that ye may be hid in the day of the Lord's anger."-Zeph.2:3 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."-Phil.2:12

I apologize for all those who have read this from me before. Yeah, look none of the above is real. Jesus died because he was a cult leader who got sideways with the Romans and the Sanhedrim and was either too stupid or too crazy to un**** himself. Forgive the profanity but let's face it, if the Romans were displeased enough to get out the 2x4's, the nails and the post- hole-digger to turn you into a public art project, there's no other word for it. You're **********. And when I say ********** what I mean is he got nailed to the tree as part of a public relations event, stabbed in the gut and died. After dying he stayed dead.

Marcus Aurelius, yeah there's a guy to take life lessons from. Are you sure he wasn't giving that advice to the cast of the afternoon show at the Coliseum? In their case it was good advice as he was having them killed for the amusement of the crowd.

I know it's hard to take but maybe you should consider giving up the imaginary friend.

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I tried watching it but had to give up because the music and poor sound quality made it too difficult to hear what was being said.

1) if all religions are based on love, why do so many religious people passionately hate people of other religions?

2) after the unifying nature of God's Love is recognized and people accept it, how will women be treated (i.e. will they be equals or not)? Follow up question, how will homosexuals be treated?

3) after the unifying nature of God's Love is recognized and people accept it, will the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest remain at current levels? If not, will any narrowing be voluntary or will government taxes be a factor?

1) Love & hatred are intimately connected, and the intensification of one intensifies the other. Nietzsche, Beyond Good & Evil: "It is not their love of men but the impotence of their love that keeps Christians from...burning us"! Dostoevsky, Bro. Karamazov: "the more intensely I hate an individual, the more intense is my love for humanity!"

2) in the ideal city, as portrayed in Plato's Republic Book Five, which our world has clearly been moving towards, the females are educated as and have the same roles in society as the males. in that city, homosexuals would be accepted, as we can see acceptance of them has been increasing.

3) the wide availability of access to Internet, tv, movies, etc. and of education for all is rapidly equalizing all people, the "rich" with the "poor". More people are learning "The Secret" to all power than knew it in the past.

[gjpogiatzis]

Which god, you ask me? The Bible defines God as "THE ALL IN ALL"(Col.3:11), as does the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao te Ching ("Tao" used interchangeably with "Heaven & Earth"), etc. Spinoza: "There is nothing that is not God [i.e. God is all that is]"

You can conceive God as the IMAGINARY personification of all that is "good" & "beautiful" in the world, like Don Quixote's Dulcinea. Imaginary doesn't mean it should be rejected! "Madness is sure to great wits near allied"-John Dryden. "Madness is the source of the greatest blessing to mankind, for the madmen are the prophets of God"-Plato in Phaedrus. "The lunatic, the lover, & the poet are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold...[due to Third Eye]"-Shakespeare, Midsummer Night's Dream. Famous madmen: Hamlet/Shakespeare, Don Quixote/Cervantes (on his deathbed, Cervantes said DQ represents himself), Dostoevsky the epileptic, Paul the epileptic, Jesus who is "mad & demon possessed"(John 10:20), Lady Gaga ("gaga" means "crazy"), etc.:
1) Nietzsche, Beyond Good & Evil 1.4: "For us, the falsity of a judgment is still no objection to that judgment— that’s where our new way of speaking sounds perhaps most strange. The question is the extent to which it makes demands on life, sustains life, maintains the species, perhaps even creates species. And as a matter of principle we are ready to assert that the falsest judgments (to which a priori synthetic judgments belong) are the most indispensable to us, that without our allowing logical fictions to count, without a way of measuring reality against the purely invented world of the unconditional and self-identical, without a constant falsification of the world through numbers, human beings could not live—that if we managed to give up false judgments, it would amount to a renunciation of life, a denial of life.* To concede the fictional nature of the conditions of life means, of course, taking a dangerous stand against the customary feelings about value. A philosophy which dares to do that is for this reason alone already standing beyond good and evil." He goes on to give an example of what ideas he means in Pt.1.10: " “the IMMORTAL SOUL,” perhaps “the old GOD,” in short, ideas according to which life could be lived better, that is, more powerfully and more cheerfully than according to “modern ideas”". So Nietzsche actually wasn't rejecting "God", he only substitutes for "God" the "Ubermensch"("Superman"). In Zarathustra, he says to make a "god" out of "your seven demons".

2) (from Man of La Mancha musical)
To each his Dulcinea
That he alone can name...
To each a secret hiding place
Where he can find the haunting face
To light his secret flame.
For with his Dulcinea Beside him so to stand,
A man can do quite anything,
Outfly the bird upon the wing,
Hold moonlight in his hand.
Yet if you build your life on dreams
It's prudent to recall,
A man with moonlight in his hand
Has nothing there at all.
There is no Dulcinea,
She's made of flame and air,
And yet how lovely life would seem
If ev'ry man could weave a dream
To keep him from despair.
To each his Dulcinea...
Though she's naught but flame and air!


So one can love "God" as an imaginary personification of all beautiful things, like St. Francis:

The Canticle of the Sun
by Francis of Assisi

Most high, all powerful, all good Lord! All praise is yours, all glory, all honor, and all blessing. To you, alone, Most High, do they belong. No mortal lips are worthy to pronounce your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures, especially through my lord Brother Sun, who brings the day; and you give light through him. And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendor! Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars; in the heavens you have made them, precious and beautiful.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air, and clouds and storms, and all the weather, through which you give your creatures sustenance.

Be praised, My Lord, through Sister Water; she is very useful, and humble, and precious, and pure.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brother Fire, through whom you brighten the night. He is beautiful and cheerful, and powerful and strong.

Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth, who feeds us and rules us, and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Be praised, my Lord, through those who forgive for love of you; through those who endure sickness and trial. Happy those who endure in peace, for by you, Most High, they will be crowned.

Be praised, my Lord, through our Sister Bodily Death, from whose embrace no living person can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Happy those she finds doing your most holy will. The second death can do no harm to them.

Praise and bless my Lord, and give thanks, and serve him with great humility.

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by Sawbones79

Oh, and I just have to protest against seeing lord Batman mentioned amongst such rabble as Harry Potter and, Cthulhu forbid, "Twilight" characters.
On a more serious note, a cursory glance at the OP gives at least a slight reason to suspect that the poster is somewhat mentally unbalanced. Though I'm personally inclined to answer that mass of words with mockery (as above), it's really not a nice thing to do if the poster is actually mentally ill. Any advice from long-time posters on how to answer those posts that seem clearly deranged?

Well I guess then you haven't noticed who is the other most famous literary creation who transforms into a big black bat (Dracula), to understand why I would mention Batman alongside "Twilight" vampires & werewolves.

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by Sawbones79

I probably over-reacted I guess. Back to the topic at hand, then.
If I understand it correctly, the OP is making a statement implying that religious dogma per se isn't what'll get you into heaven, and that you should carefully consider your morals and lifestyle in order to reach a state of wisdom and goodness?

The "religious dogma" only gets you into "heaven" insofar as it impacts your lifestyle. "What shall it profit a man if he say he have faith but not works? Shall faith save him?...I'll show you my faith by my works...Faith without works is dead...faith without works is like the body without the SPIRIT."-James 2:13-23. "He who BELIEVES in me will do greater works than I did"-John14:12. Faith is not easy to attain, as Kierkegaard emphasizes in Fear & Trembling. Abraham "hoped AGAINST HOPE that he could become a father of many nations."-Rom.4:21 It is only that faith that "SAVES" you, for the people who learn the truth that all these texts are teaching gain "power over the nations" (Revelation 2:26). "To those who pursue glory [FAME], honor, & immortality, to them ETERNAL LIFE"-Rom.2:7, like Lady Gaga who sings "I want the fame" in her song "Fame Monster". The more you study these texts (not just the Bible), the more your faith will increase in what these texts are teaching: "FAITH cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."-Rom.10:17.

And the Bible might SEEM false, but note well that Paul says he is a "DECEIVER, yet TRUE"!(2Cor.6:8) like Jesus with his parables to blind people, and Plato with his "noble lie" which is not really a lie!

[dafydd]

Nurse!!!!!!

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

Well I guess then you haven't noticed who is the other most famous literary creation who transforms into a big black bat (Dracula), to understand why I would mention Batman alongside "Twilight" vampires & werewolves.

Is it because the Bible and comic books are both works of fiction?

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

Which god, you ask me? The Bible defines God as "THE ALL IN ALL"(Col.3:11), as does the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao te Ching ("Tao" used interchangeably with "Heaven & Earth"), etc. Spinoza: "There is nothing that is not God [i.e. God is all that is]"

You can conceive God as the IMAGINARY personification of all that is "good" & "beautiful" in the world, like Don Quixote's Dulcinea. Imaginary doesn't mean it should be rejected! "Madness is sure to great wits near allied"-John Dryden. "Madness is the source of the greatest blessing to mankind, for the madmen are the prophets of God"-Plato in Phaedrus. "The lunatic, the lover, & the poet are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold...[due to Third Eye]"-Shakespeare, Midsummer Night's Dream. Famous madmen: Hamlet/Shakespeare, Don Quixote/Cervantes (on his deathbed, Cervantes said DQ represents himself), Dostoevsky the epileptic, Paul the epileptic, Jesus who is "mad & demon possessed"(John 10:20), Lady Gaga ("gaga" means "crazy"), etc.:
1) Nietzsche, Beyond Good & Evil 1.4: "For us, the falsity of a judgment is still no objection to that judgment— that’s where our new way of speaking sounds perhaps most strange. The question is the extent to which it makes demands on life, sustains life, maintains the species, perhaps even creates species. And as a matter of principle we are ready to assert that the falsest judgments (to which a priori synthetic judgments belong) are the most indispensable to us, that without our allowing logical fictions to count, without a way of measuring reality against the purely invented world of the unconditional and self-identical, without a constant falsification of the world through numbers, human beings could not live—that if we managed to give up false judgments, it would amount to a renunciation of life, a denial of life.* To concede the fictional nature of the conditions of life means, of course, taking a dangerous stand against the customary feelings about value. A philosophy which dares to do that is for this reason alone already standing beyond good and evil." He goes on to give an example of what ideas he means in Pt.1.10: " “the IMMORTAL SOUL,” perhaps “the old GOD,” in short, ideas according to which life could be lived better, that is, more powerfully and more cheerfully than according to “modern ideas”". So Nietzsche actually wasn't rejecting "God", he only substitutes for "God" the "Ubermensch"("Superman"). In Zarathustra, he says to make a "god" out of "your seven demons".

2) (from Man of La Mancha musical)
To each his Dulcinea
That he alone can name...
To each a secret hiding place
Where he can find the haunting face
To light his secret flame.
For with his Dulcinea Beside him so to stand,
A man can do quite anything,
Outfly the bird upon the wing,
Hold moonlight in his hand.
Yet if you build your life on dreams
It's prudent to recall,
A man with moonlight in his hand
Has nothing there at all.
There is no Dulcinea,
She's made of flame and air,
And yet how lovely life would seem
If ev'ry man could weave a dream
To keep him from despair.
To each his Dulcinea...
Though she's naught but flame and air!


So one can love "God" as an imaginary personification of all beautiful things, like St. Francis:

The Canticle of the Sun
by Francis of Assisi

Most high, all powerful, all good Lord! All praise is yours, all glory, all honor, and all blessing. To you, alone, Most High, do they belong. No mortal lips are worthy to pronounce your name.

Be praised, my Lord, through all your creatures, especially through my lord Brother Sun, who brings the day; and you give light through him. And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendor! Of you, Most High, he bears the likeness.

Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars; in the heavens you have made them, precious and beautiful.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air, and clouds and storms, and all the weather, through which you give your creatures sustenance.

Be praised, My Lord, through Sister Water; she is very useful, and humble, and precious, and pure.

Be praised, my Lord, through Brother Fire, through whom you brighten the night. He is beautiful and cheerful, and powerful and strong.

Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth, who feeds us and rules us, and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs.

Be praised, my Lord, through those who forgive for love of you; through those who endure sickness and trial. Happy those who endure in peace, for by you, Most High, they will be crowned.

Be praised, my Lord, through our Sister Bodily Death, from whose embrace no living person can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Happy those she finds doing your most holy will. The second death can do no harm to them.

Praise and bless my Lord, and give thanks, and serve him with great humility.

You know this is all made up nonsense right. I mean this whole god thing is a long running practical joke. It's all made up. There's no one to serve with humility and no one to pray to.

[gjpogiatzis]

To Craig4: You appear to have missed the point of my post. On the one hand, I agreed with you about the "made up" by using the word "IMAGINARY", but on the other, I spoke of how "the falsity of a judgment is still no objection to that judgment" as Nietzsche says.

To dafydd: You're quite funny (I'm being sincere). Perhaps you should join Joker at Arkham or Asylum, or maybe Daffy Duck on Looney Tunes?

[Brainache]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

...
Famous madmen: Hamlet/Shakespeare, Don Quixote/Cervantes (on his deathbed, Cervantes said DQ represents himself), Dostoevsky the epileptic, Paul the epileptic, Jesus who is "mad & demon possessed"(John 10:20), Lady Gaga ("gaga" means "crazy"), etc.: ...

Lady Gaga?

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by Brainache

Lady Gaga?

she constantly is hinting that her "third eye" is open, which produces strange visions not apparent to the ordinary person, such as a "crazy" person would have http://vigilantcitizen.com/musicbusi...minati-puppet/. But notice Joel 2:12,28: "Turn to me w/all your heart, w/FASTING [unlocks psychic abilities] & weeping...& I will pour out My Spirit...dream dreams & see VISIONS." Num.12:6"if there is a prophet among u, I will speak to him in dreams & visions." 1 Cor.3:18: "Be a fool ["loco"-"crazy" in the Spanish translation] to be wise." "enlightenment"/kundalini awakening (baptism of the Holy Spirit) at its worst is said by Carl Jung to be equivalent to schizophrenia. http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...-8&q=kundalini

"The lunatic, the lover, & the poet [singer] are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold..." -the poet Shakespeare, A Midsummer Night's Dream

[alfaniner]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

actually "The Word" is LOVE

WORD
WORE
WOVE
LOVE

You may have something there.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

actually "The Word" is LOVE, as the Beatles say,

It was Yes, actually.

There's a word, and the word is love and it's right for me,
It's right for me, and the word is love.

But don't let that interrupt the flow.

Dave

[Brainache]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

It was Yes, actually.

There's a word, and the word is love and it's right for me,
It's right for me, and the word is love.

But don't let that interrupt the flow.

Dave

Consider the flow interrupted:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

("Tao" used interchangeably with "Heaven & Earth")

No.

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

No.

Yes. Instead of just assuming a person is wrong, you should ask the person why he thinks the way he does. Look at Tao te Ching Ch.5 v.1 for instance, in its various translations. http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap05.htm#top "God" (The Tao) is the "all in all"(Col.3:11), "Heaven & Earth" comprehending all that is.

[Hokulele]

No.

[psionl0]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

Yes. Instead of just assuming a person is wrong, you should ask the person why he thinks the way he does. Look at Tao te Ching Ch.5 v.1 for instance, in its various translations. http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap05.htm#top "God" (The Tao) is the "all in all"(Col.3:11), "Heaven & Earth" comprehending all that is.

A debate between you and Paul Bethke (from that other thread) could prove enlightening.

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by psionl0

A debate between you and Paul Bethke (from that other thread) could prove enlightening.

I sent him an invitation to the thread at your suggestion. I'll see if he replies.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

There is only one Word:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Word up!

Thank you, my wise teacher.

Originally Posted by Craig4

...

Marcus Aurelius, yeah there's a guy to take life lessons from. ...

Actually the Meditations are well worth reading.

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

... On the one hand, I agreed with you about the "made up" by using the word "IMAGINARY", but on the other, I spoke of how "the falsity of a judgment is still no objection to that judgment" as Nietzsche says.

...

Since studying Nietzsche is my part-time hobby, I have to object to him being quoted in one-liners outside of his own context. He's hard enough to understand even when you read him carefully.

eta: You quote a passage from BG&E, then say: "He goes on to give an example of what ideas he means in Pt.1.10: " “the IMMORTAL SOUL,” perhaps “the old GOD,” in short, ideas according to which life could be lived better, that is, more powerfully and more cheerfully than according to “modern ideas”". So Nietzsche actually wasn't rejecting "God", he only substitutes for "God" the "Ubermensch"("Superman"). In Zarathustra, he says to make a "god" out of "your seven demons".

Now that I see you have pasted together several works and come to what seem like hasty conclusions, I'm less confident that you have read him carefully.

Feel free to start a separate thread about Nietzsche. But I'm interested in reading him for his own sake, not for reaching conclusions that can be summed up in a few one-liners.

[gjpogiatzis]

I do carefully study the context, but I can only quote so much at once. In post #52 I gave more context than the later post in which I mentioned only one line.

[calebprime]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

I do carefully study the context, but I can only quote so much at once. In post #52 I gave more context than the later post in which I mentioned only one line.

Let me read section 10 of BG&E today, and I'll try to make sense of it. I've got a bunch of other stuff to do. I'll come back later.

Mainly, he's disagreeing with Kant.

[Sawbones79]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

The "religious dogma" only gets you into "heaven" insofar as it impacts your lifestyle. "What shall it profit a man if he say he have faith but not works? Shall faith save him?...I'll show you my faith by my works...Faith without works is dead...faith without works is like the body without the SPIRIT."-James 2:13-23. "He who BELIEVES in me will do greater works than I did"-John14:12. Faith is not easy to attain, as Kierkegaard emphasizes in Fear & Trembling. Abraham "hoped AGAINST HOPE that he could become a father of many nations."-Rom.4:21 It is only that faith that "SAVES" you, for the people who learn the truth that all these texts are teaching gain "power over the nations" (Revelation 2:26). "To those who pursue glory [FAME], honor, & immortality, to them ETERNAL LIFE"-Rom.2:7, like Lady Gaga who sings "I want the fame" in her song "Fame Monster". The more you study these texts (not just the Bible), the more your faith will increase in what these texts are teaching: "FAITH cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."-Rom.10:17.

And the Bible might SEEM false, but note well that Paul says he is a "DECEIVER, yet TRUE"!(2Cor.6:8) like Jesus with his parables to blind people, and Plato with his "noble lie" which is not really a lie!

A little clarification needed: Do you consider this higher state you call heaven to be an enlightment reachable as a living person, or the more christian (or muslim, for that part) view with "heaven" as a reward after death?

[gjpogiatzis]

You reach enlightenment as a living person. This "enlightenment" state is what Hegel calls "Absolute Knowledge" at the end of the Phenomenology of the Spirit in which the self knows itself to be all existence, just as Krishna identifies himself with all things in the Bhagavad Gita & Christ is called "the all in all"-Col.3:11; or what Paul calls being "filled with ALL the fulness of God"-Eph.3:19. Hegel says "History intellectually comprehended is the Golgotha(crucifixion place) of the Absolute Spirit", for one of the stages he discusses in the section on "Religion" for arriving at this state is seeking "God" in the BEAUTY of nature & human works of fine art, music, and especially the written WORD. Doubtless he is borrowing this notion from the "ladder of love" to "God"/"The Beautiful Itself" in the middle of Plato's Symposium.

Here is a short video I made on Plato's Symposium, in which Diotima teaches that to come to know God "The Beautiful Itself" "the Highest MYSTERY" and live the life most worth living, you must follow the "ladder of love" by falling in LOVE with, in this order, all beautiful: bodies, souls/minds, pursuits/laws (like Psalm 1 speaks of always delighting in the "law" of the Lord), and studies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHVIhHb92I. Sorry if it is hard to hear, but the insights Plato shares which I discuss in this video are so important that you should make the extra effort to listen. "Joined to the infinite Spirit, he finds INEXHAUSTIBLE JOY"!-Bhagavad Gita. I pray that your joy may be full.

Then again, we cannot be "raised in the likeness of his resurrection" unless we are "planted in the likeness of his DEATH" (Rom.6), but what "DEATH" means is the big MYSTERY. Paul says in 1 Cor.15, THE chapter on the resurrection, "I die DAILY"! Consider that the Bible, Shakespeare, etc. identify death with sleep, so the resurrection into "Heaven" is related to DREAMING. The symbol for enlightenment in Hinduism, OM, represents a combo of the dream state & waking state, in other words, dreaming while you are awake, which is incidentally how Kant defines a "LUNATIC"! Shakespeare: "the lunatic, the lover, & the poet are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold..." The Bible & other books exhort you to deny the flesh's desires by fasting & watching ("no sleep") because these are shamanistic techniques for communing with the Spirit world/the deeper layers of the Mind. Lao-Tzu, author of the Tao te Ching, was often found in DEATH-like TRANCES. "Grasping the reality beyond the senses, he thinks there is NO GREATER GAIN"-Bhagavad Gita 5.21.

[Pure Argent]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

Consider that the Bible, Shakespeare, etc. identify death with sleep, so the resurrection into "Heaven" is related to DREAMING.

And also, apparently, EXCESSIVE USE of CAPITALIZED LETTERING.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

Here is a short video I made on Plato's Symposium, in which Diotima teaches that to come to know God "The Beautiful Itself" "the Highest MYSTERY" and live the life most worth living, you must follow the "ladder of love" by falling in LOVE with, in this order, all beautiful: bodies, souls/minds, pursuits/laws (like Psalm 1 speaks of always delighting in the "law" of the Lord), and studies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHVIhHb92I. Sorry if it is hard to hear, but the insights Plato shares which I discuss in this video are so important that you should make the extra effort to listen.

No.You know who should make an extra effort? You.

If you want your message to be heard then redo the video. First, drop the music. The topic is interesting enough that music is not necessary at all. Second, get the volume right. It is not all that difficult.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis

You reach enlightenment as a living person. This "enlightenment" state is what Hegel calls "Absolute Knowledge" at the end of the Phenomenology of the Spirit in which the self knows itself to be all existence, just as Krishna identifies himself with all things in the Bhagavad Gita & Christ is called "the all in all"-Col.3:11; or what Paul calls being "filled with ALL the fulness of God"-Eph.3:19. Hegel says "History intellectually comprehended is the Golgotha(crucifixion place) of the Absolute Spirit", for one of the stages he discusses in the section on "Religion" for arriving at this state is seeking "God" in the BEAUTY of nature & human works of fine art, music, and especially the written WORD. Doubtless he is borrowing this notion from the "ladder of love" to "God"/"The Beautiful Itself" in the middle of Plato's Symposium.

Here is a short video I made on Plato's Symposium, in which Diotima teaches that to come to know God "The Beautiful Itself" "the Highest MYSTERY" and live the life most worth living, you must follow the "ladder of love" by falling in LOVE with, in this order, all beautiful: bodies, souls/minds, pursuits/laws (like Psalm 1 speaks of always delighting in the "law" of the Lord), and studies. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHVIhHb92I. Sorry if it is hard to hear, but the insights Plato shares which I discuss in this video are so important that you should make the extra effort to listen. "Joined to the infinite Spirit, he finds INEXHAUSTIBLE JOY"!-Bhagavad Gita. I pray that your joy may be full.

Then again, we cannot be "raised in the likeness of his resurrection" unless we are "planted in the likeness of his DEATH" (Rom.6), but what "DEATH" means is the big MYSTERY. Paul says in 1 Cor.15, THE chapter on the resurrection, "I die DAILY"! Consider that the Bible, Shakespeare, etc. identify death with sleep, so the resurrection into "Heaven" is related to DREAMING. The symbol for enlightenment in Hinduism, OM, represents a combo of the dream state & waking state, in other words, dreaming while you are awake, which is incidentally how Kant defines a "LUNATIC"! Shakespeare: "the lunatic, the lover, & the poet are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold..." The Bible & other books exhort you to deny the flesh's desires by fasting & watching ("no sleep") because these are shamanistic techniques for communing with the Spirit world/the deeper layers of the Mind. Lao-Tzu, author of the Tao te Ching, was often found in DEATH-like TRANCES. "Grasping the reality beyond the senses, he thinks there is NO GREATER GAIN"-Bhagavad Gita 5.21.

It's called metaphor. It's not the code to reality.

Or, as someone with a better way with words puts it:

Quote:

"It's a fatal thing to take literature and art too seriously if you lack judgment." (Richard Aldington, inSoft Answers)

[calebprime]

If I say I'm reminded of Dr. Bronner, it's only because of the breathless torrent of ideas leading to all-one!

I'm rather fond of Dr. Bronner, and I like his soap. It smells good.

http://iconocla.st/dr.bronner/

[Sawbones79]

So, if I understand your thesis correctly, it's basically a transcendent philosophy supported by a line of sources you consider interlinked by their obvious or hidden meaning. May I ask how you choose sources and quotes?

[X]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

The smart money (okay, the crazy money) is on Hexadecimal. She has style.

She did, but it wasn't her. Mike the TV said those words.

Originally Posted by Lowpro

Wait wait wait, what that a Reboot reference? I haven't seen that show since it aired on Cartoon Network.

Yes, yes it was. Couldn't resist.

[gjpogiatzis]

Originally Posted by Sawbones79

So, if I understand your thesis correctly, it's basically a transcendent philosophy supported by a line of sources you consider interlinked by their obvious or hidden meaning. May I ask how you choose sources and quotes?

How are you defining "transcendent"? That "God" is outside the world? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_(philosophy)

The sources I quote the most are the texts which I have studied the most: many of the most famous authors/books, especially: the Bible, Plato, the Tao te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, Buddhist texts, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, etc. as you can see from my Facebook wall where I incessantly quote from these books: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1598178443 (feel free to send me a friend request). The college I went to, St. John's College in MD & NM, is very unique: there are no majors; all the students there are required to study "The Great Books" of Western Civilization in philosophy/religion, literature, mathematics, astronomy, sciences, history, etc. + music & languages (Ancient Greek & French): www.sjca.edu shows the reading list. They are all closely interrelated; if you study the texts together very closely for as long as I have, "the truth will come to you at last, that ALL IS ONE & ONE IS ALL, to be a rock & not to roll!"-Led Zeppelin, "Stairway to HEAVEN" The more famous the text or music is, in general the more important it is to study: Thomas Aquinas says that THE MOST PERFECT INTELLECT is the one which possesses "THE MOST UNIVERSAL forms"; to know "God"-"the all in all"-you have to understand most of all the cultural works which most shaped and which are the best expressions of our civilization. Hegel, the most famous of the modern German philosophers along with Kant & Nietzsche, says at the end of the Phenomenology of the Spirit of the HIGHEST STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS- "ABSOLUTE KNOWLEDGE," in which the self knows itself to be all existence, as Krishna defines himself in the Bhagavad Gita- that "HISTORY INTELLECTUALLY COMPREHENDED IS THE GOLGOTHA [CRUCIFIXION-PLACE] OF THE ABSOLUTE SPIRIT."