Attention, Hey Franko

[SFB]

Are you ignoring this???


http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...344#post370344

[Franko]

Quote:

Are you ignoring this???

Not intentionally, I must have just missed it …

Quote:

One last try.

Obey in "obeys the laws of phsyics" is better stated as "is consistent with". (I've said this before, but I wanted to make sure it is fresh in the mind).

Franko, try substituting "is consistent with" for "obeys" in all your arguements and see if they fall apart.

Let me help you out.

Atoms are consistent with the laws of physics.
A person is made of atoms.
A person is consistent with the laws of physics.

This adds up nicely. It makes sense. It also breaks your insanity.

Whose Insanity?

How are your semantic word games evidence of “free will”?

Quote:

It doesn't tell a person what they have to do. It only limits their possible actions.

What EXACTLY do you mean when you say TLOP isn’t telling people what to do? Aren’t “YOU” (“the people”) just your physical brain(s)? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?

What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???

Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.

I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.

[Akots]

Franko, asking for empirical evidence of free will is irellevant.

I want you to prove that the universe is deterministic, without any true random factors.

[SFB]

Franko,

In the thread I reposted:

Originally posted by scotth


"Obey has two distinct possible meanings when applied to humans and only one reasonable meaning when applied to atoms.

Don't tell me that with over 7,000 combined posts that no has pointed this out to you.

When the word "obey" is used in the phrase, "obeys the laws of physics", what is more accurately meant is the phrase, "is consistent with the known laws of physics, or our understanding of physics."

I'll elaborate this point just a bit. When Michelson & Morely carried out their comparison of the speed of light in different directions and came out with 0 difference in speed regardless of the measured direction, it was an answer contrary to what was expected. Did the light disobey the laws of physics? No. Did the light disobey the known laws of physics? Yes. What did this tell us? It told us that we didn't properly know/understand the laws of physics and our theories needed adjustment. And rephrased even more accurately, our observation of light's behaviour in this instance did not agree with our understanding of what was naturally/physically possible. Our understanding was flawed. It was fixed, by Einstein.

The common use of the word obey can only be applied to objects that have at least some intelligence and can choose to follow an order, direction, or law. In fact, in common usage, the word obey can only properly be applied to entities that possess free will.

Atom, particles, and all non intelligent entities obey the laws of physics only in the sense that the laws of physics are what we know to be possible physically. The antinym of the word obey is disobey. Disobey is deciding not to do what has been instructed.

The very word "obey" reeks of the concept of free will and it is ironic that you continually use in your illogical diatribes against it.

Do we "obey the laws of physics"? In the sense that we are consistent with what is allowable in the universe, absolutely.... otherwise we would be supernatural by defintion. In the sense that we follow TLOPs commands/orders? No, it issues none to follow.

Furthermore, in the common usage of the term obey (which by now you should begin to realize is an unfortunate term to use in relationship to science) requires also that the order/rule/direction come from a sentient, thinking entity as well.

"The laws of physics" are not that. They are just our understanding of the way the universe it put together. They do not issue any commands for someone to drive their car off a bridge, but they describe what will happen when someone decides to try it.

So, mixing those two usages of obey are a fallacy of construction. There, it is spelled out in detail for you. Print this and tape it to the top of your monitor. Read this before every post until you brain adjusts to this new way of thinking, ****stick.
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Franko:

Ugh...

The post above, which you ignore[d] obliterates your points of view. Do you not see this? Why don't you read it and understand what it says? You say your views depend on logic. Try applying logic to the above post, please. Show where the logic is wrong.

Ugh...

edited for spelling"



Care to respond???

[Franko]

Quote:

"Obey has two distinct possible meanings when applied to humans and only one reasonable meaning when applied to atoms.

I didn’t know that atoms had their own Dictionaries?

Quote:

When the word "obey" is used in the phrase, "obeys the laws of physics", what is more accurately meant is the phrase, "is consistent with the known laws of physics, or our understanding of physics."

I notice that You NEVER precisely explain what the difference is?

I have heard all of this same nonsense before:

A-Theist: We do not “Obey” the laws of physics, we are only “Influenced” by them!
Serpent: Okay, so what is the PRECISE difference between “Obey” and “Influence”?
A-Theist: Because of the “law of Semantics” if we are only Influenced we still have magic “free will” powers!

… or …

A-Theist: We do not “Obey” the laws of physics, we are only “Bound” by them!
Serpent: Okay, so what is the PRECISE difference between “Obey” and “Bound by”?
A-Theist: Because of the “law of Semantics” if we are only Bound by TLOP we still have magic “free will” powers!

… or …

A-Theist: We do not “Obey” the laws of physics, our behavior is simply “Consistent” with the laws of physics …



What EXACTLY is the EVIDENCE for your magic powers again? If you are claiming that you all of modern physics is DEAD WRONG, then present some extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claim. Whining about Syllogisms doesn’t prove that you have magic powers it only proves you are a brainwashed religious moron.

Quote:

I'll elaborate this point just a bit. When Michelson & Morely carried out their comparison of the speed of light in different directions and came out with 0 difference in speed regardless of the measured direction, it was an answer contrary to what was expected. Did the light disobey the laws of physics? No. Did the light disobey the known laws of physics? Yes. What did this tell us? It told us that we didn't properly know/understand the laws of physics and our theories needed adjustment. And rephrased even more accurately, our observation of light's behaviour in this instance did not agree with our understanding of what was naturally/physically possible. Our understanding was flawed. It was fixed, by Einstein.

Yes, I am sure we are all impressed with your “knowledge” of the speed of light and Uncle Al, but what (EXACTLY) does this have to do with your alleged magic “free will” powers?

Quote:

The common use of the word obey can only be applied to objects that have at least some intelligence and can choose to follow an order, direction, or law. In fact, in common usage, the word obey can only properly be applied to entities that possess free will.

Where is the “YOU” that possess this “free will”? Aren’t “YOU” (“the people”) just your physical brain(s)? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?

What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???

Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.

I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs.

Quote:

Atom, particles, and all non intelligent entities obey the laws of physics only in the sense that the laws of physics are what we know to be possible physically. The antinym of the word obey is disobey. Disobey is deciding not to do what has been instructed.

The very word "obey" reeks of the concept of free will and it is ironic that you continually use in your illogical diatribes against it.

So what is your evidence for magic powers religious fanatic? I still don’t see ANY?

Quote:

Do we "obey the laws of physics"? In the sense that we are consistent with what is allowable in the universe, absolutely.... otherwise we would be supernatural by defintion. In the sense that we follow TLOPs commands/orders? No, it issues none to follow.

So you are claiming that the atoms (chemicals) comprising your brain obey a different Laws of physics than other similar chemicals not part of a “living body”? Sounds like that should be pretty easy to test for.

Do trees have “free will”? How about sperm?

Quote:

Furthermore, in the common usage of the term obey (which by now you should begin to realize is an unfortunate term to use in relationship to science) requires also that the order/rule/direction come from a sentient, thinking entity as well.

"The laws of physics" are not that. They are just our understanding of the way the universe it put together. They do not issue any commands for someone to drive their car off a bridge, but they describe what will happen when someone decides to try it.

Where is the YOU that decides to drive the car off a bridge? There is no “You”, you are just a collection of atoms doing what atoms do as per the immutable Laws of Physics and the Initial State.

The Laws of Physics exist whether you know they exist or not. To claim otherwise if as absurd as claiming that the Earth use to be flat and motionless, and it wasn’t until the discovery of a math equation that it was transformed to round, and started orbiting the Sun.

Quote:

So, mixing those two usages of obey are a fallacy of construction. There, it is spelled out in detail for you. Print this and tape it to the top of your monitor. Read this before every post until you brain adjusts to this new way of thinking, ****stick.

I still see no reason why you believe you have magic “free will” powers religious fanatic. You still have presented any evidence for your magic. Your just doing a lot of whining … just like what I would expect from a pissant little A-Theist like yourself.

-------------------------

SFB – this moron is tainting you SFB, I hope you aren’t going to let him drag you down to the Abyss with him … when he goes.

Feel free to waste your time with him, but I can see why I missed this inane drivel the first time around ...

[SFB]

Franko, forget it. You did not address scotth's post nor the original thread from which it was taken, and I refuse to discuss anything else. I said in the original thread that scotth's post obliterates your views. You evade the challenge. If you are serious read the original thread and respond there. This is my last post on this thread.

Oh, and here's the link again:



http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showt...580#post370580

[Franko]

So where's the evidence for your "free willy" god then?

Atoms obey TLOP.
You are made of atoms.
You obey TLOP!

I don't see your "free willy" I just see you being a completely predictable brainwashed A-Theist.