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a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 01:50 AM

Now that the Opposition has agreed to the legislation, there is nothing to stop this going ahead. All cigarettes will by law have a packet that is olive green, with the colour content provided by a graphic warning about the dangers of smoking. All cigarettes will also be sold in shops from cabinets that hide them from display.

Darat · 31st May 2011, 02:02 AM

That's sounds like what the government is suggesting for England.

I've heard (on the radio) some people speaking for the "tobacco industry" who are against the idea and others for it. I don't think it will have much impact on current smokers and I wonder if it will even reduce the number of people (the young) starting to smoke?

ETA: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...70#post4156370

DC · 31st May 2011, 02:06 AM

sounds good.

lionking · 31st May 2011, 02:10 AM

Well the tobacco industry here is mightily worried that it will reduce consumption and has spent millions on an advertising campaign. Their main "argument" is that it will somehow lead to an increase in sale of illegal cigarettes. if people can't buy gigs in fancy packets they will just go and buy counterfeit ones. Or something.

DC · 31st May 2011, 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Well the tobacco industry here is mightily worried that it will reduce consumption and has spent millions on an advertising campaign. Their main "argument" is that it will somehow lead to an increase in sale of illegal cigarettes. if people can't buy gigs in fancy packets they will just go and buy counterfeit ones. Or something.

they have good reasons to, i think the goal of the law is exactly that

Darat · 31st May 2011, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Well the tobacco industry here is mightily worried that it will reduce consumption and has spent millions on an advertising campaign. Their main "argument" is that it will somehow lead to an increase in sale of illegal cigarettes. if people can't buy gigs in fancy packets they will just go and buy counterfeit ones. Or something.

If the tobacco industry is against the idea* then I suspect it will have an impact, which is good to know.

*Is a "reverse appeal to authority" a fallacy?

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 02:25 AM

They are experts on human behaviour and smoking, I will give them that. Not that they will tell you much of what their research has discovered.

ThunderChunky · 31st May 2011, 02:30 AM

Seems silly. I rarely even notice cigarettes (not a smoker) and I do not think the packaging is at all fancy.... Smokers are always being bullied these days...why not pick on sugar or saturated fat too? You think super sugar cereal is good for kids...that **** is blatantly marketed to children and comes with toys. How about frozen dinners that contain 40+ grams of fat per meal? That is worse than smoking a cig.

lionking · 31st May 2011, 02:31 AM

My cousin is CFO for Philip Morris International. He's not greatly worried, last I spoke to him. Asia is their biggest market by far, and if Australia fell off the world it would barely register. Naturally, neither he nor any of the management team smokes........

lionking · 31st May 2011, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by ThunderChunky

That is worse than smoking a cig.

I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco.

Fishstick · 31st May 2011, 03:25 AM

What's the reasoning behind making packets look generic ? I've heard similar proposals for Belgium (we already have the warnings on the front/Back that take up most of the packaging), but what is the point behind making packets generic?
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this would drive down consumption

lionking · 31st May 2011, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by Fishstick

What's the reasoning behind making packets look generic ? I've heard similar proposals for Belgium (we already have the warnings on the front/Back that take up most of the packaging), but what is the point behind making packets generic?
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this would drive down consumption

Marketing is all about establishing a brand, and lebeling is integral to brand awareness, not only to the buyer but to the buyer's friends. If it made no difference, the tobacco companies wouldn't be spending so much money opposing it.

DC · 31st May 2011, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Marketing is all about establishing a brand, and lebeling is integral to brand awareness, not only to the buyer but to the buyer's friends. If it made no difference, the tobacco companies wouldn't be spending so much money opposing it.

Wanted to say the same, but somehow i am not convinced the design of the package has an impact. I dont mind the package. i once buyed a package because i liked the design, black with silver skull and bones on it. but the cigarettes tasted very bad, so i neve buyed them anymore.

And somehow i cannot imagen a cool design might lead kids to start smoking.

but indeed, why else would they put so much effort in the design. the brand i smoke does from time to time bring out speciall designs etc.

must be they see some influence with the design.

lionking · 31st May 2011, 03:41 AM

Manufacturers spend a fortune on branding and packaging design for a reason.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 03:41 AM

I don't care what color they are but.....

commence rant.

The Chinese are going to produce megatons of this now easily forged product. The price of cigarettes will fall. The government will respond by taxing the crap out pitiful addicts and the criminal element will expand the already existing black market of tax avoiding tobacco.

People will use marijuana to stretch out their tobacco stash.

this is all true, if you don't believe me I'll claim it again.

actually, what I really believe is that Australian senior citizens should be eligible to recieve free tobacco.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 03:43 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Manufacturers spend a fortune on branding and packaging design for a reason.

yes.....they spend this money in the public interest to make it a lot harder for evil overseas people to forge tobacco products and sell them out of cars outside your schools.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

yes.....they spend this money in the public interest to make it a lot harder for evil overseas people to forge tobacco products and sell them out of cars outside your schools.

don't forget the olive industry is outraged at the colour....but obviously all you said is true too.

lionking · 31st May 2011, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

yes.....they spend this money in the public interest to make it a lot harder for evil overseas people to forge tobacco products and sell them out of cars outside your schools.

Yup. You saw right through me. I'll send the cheque back to my cousin.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco.

rubbish. Only this morning I was coughing so bad I thought I was dying...couple of bungers and I felt fine.

People too quickly dismiss the therapeutic properties of cigarettes. Plus its everyones duty to consume them to keep them out of the hands of children.

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by ThunderChunky

Seems silly. I rarely even notice cigarettes (not a smoker) and I do not think the packaging is at all fancy.... Smokers are always being bullied these days...why not pick on sugar or saturated fat too? You think super sugar cereal is good for kids...that **** is blatantly marketed to children and comes with toys. How about frozen dinners that contain 40+ grams of fat per meal? That is worse than smoking a cig.

Sure, other things are bad. Cigs aren't being banned, just less cloying. Plenty of people try to give them up and find it difficult when there is temptation everywhere. This just makes them less tempting. The proof is in the uproar being made about the new law by the manufacturers. It is also an attempt to stop children being attracted to them. The companies also use the packaging to attract the young.

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco.

Recent research suggests alcohol is also dangerous in small quantities, and that it is a major cause of cancer. Not anywhere near as much as tobacco, but much more dangerous than people generally realise.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 03:54 AM

seriously.....there is hardly any room on the packets thats not pictures of some rotting body part. Seems to me they only get to pick a colour and a font anyway. How is the schoolgirl that sells them going to tell which one I asked for.

just make them print "I'm a child molester" on them and be done with it.

lionking · 31st May 2011, 03:59 AM

As an aside, I'm watching the great Australian TV mini-series "Cloudstreet" set in the 40s and beyond. It's a wonder the actors don't ask for danger money. There are some scenes where you can barely see the characters through the smoke haze.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Sure, other things are bad. Cigs aren't being banned, just less cloying. Plenty of people try to give them up and find it difficult when there is temptation everywhere. This just makes them less tempting. The proof is in the uproar being made about the new law by the manufacturers. It is also an attempt to stop children being attracted to them. The companies also use the packaging to attract the young.

In my youth the cigarette you smoked was a statement about your self image. I smoked the ones that made you a dignified young gentlemen who drove a Jag. Some people were cowboys and other rich young Jet-setters.

Tobacco advertising was everywhere.

Have we gone far enough yet?

DC · 31st May 2011, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

In my youth the cigarette you smoked was a statement about your self image. I smoked the ones that made you a dignified young gentlemen who drove a Jag. Some people were cowboys and other rich young Jet-setters.

Tobacco advertising was everywhere.

Have we gone far enough yet?

no

Fishstick · 31st May 2011, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Marketing is all about establishing a brand, and lebeling is integral to brand awareness, not only to the buyer but to the buyer's friends. If it made no difference, the tobacco companies wouldn't be spending so much money opposing it.

That's all fine and all, but when it comes to picking out a packet of cigs, how is a generic packaging (rather than color + GIANTWARNING) going to reduce someone's consumption?

Leif Roar · 31st May 2011, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by DC

Wanted to say the same, but somehow i am not convinced the design of the package has an impact.

Raymond Loewy's redesign of the Lucky Strikes package was credited with a 20% increase in sales.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

Raymond Loewy's redesign of the Lucky Strikes package was credited with a 20% increase in sales.

who lost 20%?

Leif Roar · 31st May 2011, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

who lost 20%?

I doubt if anyone knows that. Maybe no-one. All or part of the increase could theoretically have come from attracting new smokers and from existing customers smoking more.

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

I doubt if anyone knows that. Maybe no-one. All or part of the increase could theoretically have come from attracting new smokers and from existing customers smoking more.

One of the attractions of cigarettes as a product is brand loyalty. They are always after those who don't smoke yet.

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Fishstick

That's all fine and all, but when it comes to picking out a packet of cigs, how is a generic packaging (rather than color + GIANTWARNING) going to reduce someone's consumption?

It's all about pavlovs bell, as far as I can tell. Cigarettes are highly addictive, and the brain associates the act of smoking with the packaging. Take away the shiny colours, make it drab and indistinct, the bell doesn't ring so loud. The fact that the cigarette companies oppose it so strongly indicates the packaging is an important part of maintaining the addiction. It won't make anyone give up, IIRC, so much as allow those who want to give up to do so. it also removes the image that Fool was referring to for those aspiring to be something they aren't.

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

In my youth the cigarette you smoked was a statement about your self image. I smoked the ones that made you a dignified young gentlemen who drove a Jag. Some people were cowboys and other rich young Jet-setters.

Tobacco advertising was everywhere.

Have we gone far enough yet?

Just about. No point making it illegal, but removing the image makes it much less attractive to the youngsters they are chasing. When they are presented as the grubby little things they really are, not tarted up, less people will smoke them. I have to say, I could never see what was supposed to be so rebellious about handing over your hard earned cash to people who didn't care if you lived or died.

Cuddles · 31st May 2011, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

It's all about pavlovs bell, as far as I can tell. Cigarettes are highly addictive, and the brain associates the act of smoking with the packaging. Take away the shiny colours, make it drab and indistinct, the bell doesn't ring so loud.

I'm not convinced. Smoking is largely a physical addiction, with most of the remaining part being the habit. No-one cares what the packets look like, and certainly no-one tries to show off what packet their fags are in to their friends, it's just a box that the things happen to come in. I very much doubt everyone is going to suddenly give up smoking just because the box is a different colour.

Quote:

The fact that the cigarette companies oppose it so strongly indicates the packaging is an important part of maintaining the addiction.

Not necessarily. What it indicates is that it's an important part of maintaining their personal profits. Brand recognition isn't about getting people to use the product at all, it's about getting people who already want to use a product to choose your specific brand over the competitors'. Brand recognition can cause a large placebo-type effect where people prefer the branded product over an otherwise identical one in different packaging. That's almost certainly what's at stake here - the big manufacturers are worried they're going to lose sales to cheaper ones, because their product will now have to stand solely on its own merits without any help from branding and advertising.

A particularly relevant point is that it appears imported Chinese cigarettes are already cheaper than those from the big three tobacco companies, the ones who are campaigning against the law, in Australia. It's not counterfeits they're worried about, it's that without the branding people will just buy those cheaper ones.

TragicMonkey · 31st May 2011, 06:42 AM

Just make the new wrappers out of tobacco, and smoke them instead of the cigarettes inside.

ThunderChunky · 31st May 2011, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco.

Sure there is, it's just very low. There is no "healthy" amount of tobacco, but then again there is no healthy amount of captain crunch, ice cream, or dough nuts. But, by shear number of people affected, does tobacco cause more health problems than fat or sugar or alcohol? I do not know the stats on that, but if tobacco isn't by biggest problem then this is just posturing. Sugar is marketed directly to kids with cartoons, games and toys, why don't they stop that?

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Sure, other things are bad. Cigs aren't being banned, just less cloying. Plenty of people try to give them up and find it difficult when there is temptation everywhere. This just makes them less tempting. The proof is in the uproar being made about the new law by the manufacturers. It is also an attempt to stop children being attracted to them. The companies also use the packaging to attract the young.

I do not see how uproar by tobacco companies proves much of anything. There would be uproar by sugar companies if sugar could not be marketed directly to kids too. I wish the gov would do MORE to encourage healthy decisions, but it seems they mostly just go after tobacco.

Alt+F4 · 31st May 2011, 10:38 AM

Cigaarette cases will just make a return and the tobacco industry can advertise on them. I've been keeping my chalk in an Altoids tin for years. Works great.

a_unique_person · 31st May 2011, 02:57 PM

The ban will still have the desired effect.

The Fool · 31st May 2011, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Leif Roar

I doubt if anyone knows that. Maybe no-one. All or part of the increase could theoretically have come from attracting new smokers and from existing customers smoking more.

smoking rates have been falling for a long time.....always falling....if a redesigned packaging increased a brands sales then its taking sales from others, not increasing the number of smokers..

http://www.quit.org.au/article.asp?ContentID=7240

Maurice Ledifficile · 31st May 2011, 11:04 PM

Here, half of the packaging consists of a picture. Some packs show sick lungs, some a diseased heart, others a pregnant woman smoking. There is text, like "Cigarettes hurt babies". It's supposed to be discouraging. I always wondered whether there could be a slight risk of nocebo driven health problems showing up.

Taxes make it so expensive that people buy based on price. The plain packaging won't make too much difference here. The real problem is that when tobacco companies lose income, they raise prices. When they raise prices, more people get tax-free cigarettes from the native reserves. Stolen cigarettes was a huge problem at the beginning of the high taxes on tobacco.

Maybe I shouldn't post when I'm fried.
Okaybye.

[ETA: Cigarette cases are very common around here. Natives' cigarettes come in bags...]

Leif Roar · 31st May 2011, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

smoking rates have been falling for a long time.....always falling....if a redesigned packaging increased a brands sales then its taking sales from others, not increasing the number of smokers..

Sorry, I should have mentioned that this redesign happened in the 1940ties. It's a common text-book example of industrial design.

31st May 2011, 01:50 AM	#1
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Australia to Mandate Plain Packaging for Cigarettes Now that the Opposition has agreed to the legislation, there is nothing to stop this going ahead. All cigarettes will by law have a packet that is olive green, with the colour content provided by a graphic warning about the dangers of smoking. All cigarettes will also be sold in shops from cabinets that hide them from display.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 02:02 AM	#2
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,990	That's sounds like what the government is suggesting for England. I've heard (on the radio) some people speaking for the "tobacco industry" who are against the idea and others for it. I don't think it will have much impact on current smokers and I wonder if it will even reduce the number of people (the young) starting to smoke? ETA: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...70#post4156370
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

31st May 2011, 02:06 AM	#3
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	sounds good.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st May 2011, 02:10 AM	#4
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	Well the tobacco industry here is mightily worried that it will reduce consumption and has spent millions on an advertising campaign. Their main "argument" is that it will somehow lead to an increase in sale of illegal cigarettes. if people can't buy gigs in fancy packets they will just go and buy counterfeit ones. Or something.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2011, 02:18 AM	#5
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	Originally Posted by lionking Well the tobacco industry here is mightily worried that it will reduce consumption and has spent millions on an advertising campaign. Their main "argument" is that it will somehow lead to an increase in sale of illegal cigarettes. if people can't buy gigs in fancy packets they will just go and buy counterfeit ones. Or something. they have good reasons to, i think the goal of the law is exactly that
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st May 2011, 02:23 AM	#6
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,990	Originally Posted by lionking Well the tobacco industry here is mightily worried that it will reduce consumption and has spent millions on an advertising campaign. Their main "argument" is that it will somehow lead to an increase in sale of illegal cigarettes. if people can't buy gigs in fancy packets they will just go and buy counterfeit ones. Or something. If the tobacco industry is against the idea* then I suspect it will have an impact, which is good to know. *Is a "reverse appeal to authority" a fallacy?
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

31st May 2011, 02:25 AM	#7
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	They are experts on human behaviour and smoking, I will give them that. Not that they will tell you much of what their research has discovered.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 02:30 AM	#8
ThunderChunky Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 988	Seems silly. I rarely even notice cigarettes (not a smoker) and I do not think the packaging is at all fancy.... Smokers are always being bullied these days...why not pick on sugar or saturated fat too? You think super sugar cereal is good for kids...that **** is blatantly marketed to children and comes with toys. How about frozen dinners that contain 40+ grams of fat per meal? That is worse than smoking a cig.
ThunderChunky Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 988

31st May 2011, 02:31 AM	#9
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	My cousin is CFO for Philip Morris International. He's not greatly worried, last I spoke to him. Asia is their biggest market by far, and if Australia fell off the world it would barely register. Naturally, neither he nor any of the management team smokes........
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill Last edited by lionking; 31st May 2011 at 02:33 AM.

31st May 2011, 02:35 AM	#10
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	Originally Posted by ThunderChunky That is worse than smoking a cig. I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2011, 03:25 AM	#11
Fishstick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,313	What's the reasoning behind making packets look generic ? I've heard similar proposals for Belgium (we already have the warnings on the front/Back that take up most of the packaging), but what is the point behind making packets generic? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this would drive down consumption

31st May 2011, 03:33 AM	#12
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	Originally Posted by Fishstick What's the reasoning behind making packets look generic ? I've heard similar proposals for Belgium (we already have the warnings on the front/Back that take up most of the packaging), but what is the point behind making packets generic? I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how this would drive down consumption Marketing is all about establishing a brand, and lebeling is integral to brand awareness, not only to the buyer but to the buyer's friends. If it made no difference, the tobacco companies wouldn't be spending so much money opposing it.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2011, 03:39 AM	#13
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	Originally Posted by lionking Marketing is all about establishing a brand, and lebeling is integral to brand awareness, not only to the buyer but to the buyer's friends. If it made no difference, the tobacco companies wouldn't be spending so much money opposing it. Wanted to say the same, but somehow i am not convinced the design of the package has an impact. I dont mind the package. i once buyed a package because i liked the design, black with silver skull and bones on it. but the cigarettes tasted very bad, so i neve buyed them anymore. And somehow i cannot imagen a cool design might lead kids to start smoking. but indeed, why else would they put so much effort in the design. the brand i smoke does from time to time bring out speciall designs etc. must be they see some influence with the design.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st May 2011, 03:41 AM	#14
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	Manufacturers spend a fortune on branding and packaging design for a reason.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2011, 03:41 AM	#15
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	I don't care what color they are but..... commence rant. The Chinese are going to produce megatons of this now easily forged product. The price of cigarettes will fall. The government will respond by taxing the crap out pitiful addicts and the criminal element will expand the already existing black market of tax avoiding tobacco. People will use marijuana to stretch out their tobacco stash. this is all true, if you don't believe me I'll claim it again. actually, what I really believe is that Australian senior citizens should be eligible to recieve free tobacco.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 03:43 AM	#16
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by lionking Manufacturers spend a fortune on branding and packaging design for a reason. yes.....they spend this money in the public interest to make it a lot harder for evil overseas people to forge tobacco products and sell them out of cars outside your schools.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 03:45 AM	#17
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by The Fool yes.....they spend this money in the public interest to make it a lot harder for evil overseas people to forge tobacco products and sell them out of cars outside your schools. don't forget the olive industry is outraged at the colour....but obviously all you said is true too.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 03:46 AM	#18
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	Originally Posted by The Fool yes.....they spend this money in the public interest to make it a lot harder for evil overseas people to forge tobacco products and sell them out of cars outside your schools. Yup. You saw right through me. I'll send the cheque back to my cousin.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2011, 03:48 AM	#19
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by lionking I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco. rubbish. Only this morning I was coughing so bad I thought I was dying...couple of bungers and I felt fine. People too quickly dismiss the therapeutic properties of cigarettes. Plus its everyones duty to consume them to keep them out of the hands of children.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 03:51 AM	#20
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Originally Posted by ThunderChunky Seems silly. I rarely even notice cigarettes (not a smoker) and I do not think the packaging is at all fancy.... Smokers are always being bullied these days...why not pick on sugar or saturated fat too? You think super sugar cereal is good for kids...that **** is blatantly marketed to children and comes with toys. How about frozen dinners that contain 40+ grams of fat per meal? That is worse than smoking a cig. Sure, other things are bad. Cigs aren't being banned, just less cloying. Plenty of people try to give them up and find it difficult when there is temptation everywhere. This just makes them less tempting. The proof is in the uproar being made about the new law by the manufacturers. It is also an attempt to stop children being attracted to them. The companies also use the packaging to attract the young.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 03:53 AM	#21
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Originally Posted by lionking I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco. Recent research suggests alcohol is also dangerous in small quantities, and that it is a major cause of cancer. Not anywhere near as much as tobacco, but much more dangerous than people generally realise.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 03:54 AM	#22
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	seriously.....there is hardly any room on the packets thats not pictures of some rotting body part. Seems to me they only get to pick a colour and a font anyway. How is the schoolgirl that sells them going to tell which one I asked for. just make them print "I'm a child molester" on them and be done with it.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 03:59 AM	#23
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,986	As an aside, I'm watching the great Australian TV mini-series "Cloudstreet" set in the 40s and beyond. It's a wonder the actors don't ask for danger money. There are some scenes where you can barely see the characters through the smoke haze.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2011, 04:03 AM	#24
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by a_unique_person Sure, other things are bad. Cigs aren't being banned, just less cloying. Plenty of people try to give them up and find it difficult when there is temptation everywhere. This just makes them less tempting. The proof is in the uproar being made about the new law by the manufacturers. It is also an attempt to stop children being attracted to them. The companies also use the packaging to attract the young. In my youth the cigarette you smoked was a statement about your self image. I smoked the ones that made you a dignified young gentlemen who drove a Jag. Some people were cowboys and other rich young Jet-setters. Tobacco advertising was everywhere. Have we gone far enough yet?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 04:07 AM	#25
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	Originally Posted by The Fool In my youth the cigarette you smoked was a statement about your self image. I smoked the ones that made you a dignified young gentlemen who drove a Jag. Some people were cowboys and other rich young Jet-setters. Tobacco advertising was everywhere. Have we gone far enough yet? no
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

31st May 2011, 04:09 AM	#26
Fishstick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,313	Originally Posted by lionking Marketing is all about establishing a brand, and lebeling is integral to brand awareness, not only to the buyer but to the buyer's friends. If it made no difference, the tobacco companies wouldn't be spending so much money opposing it. That's all fine and all, but when it comes to picking out a packet of cigs, how is a generic packaging (rather than color + GIANTWARNING) going to reduce someone's consumption?

31st May 2011, 04:36 AM	#27
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Originally Posted by DC Wanted to say the same, but somehow i am not convinced the design of the package has an impact. Raymond Loewy's redesign of the Lucky Strikes package was credited with a 20% increase in sales.
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

31st May 2011, 05:04 AM	#28
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Leif Roar Raymond Loewy's redesign of the Lucky Strikes package was credited with a 20% increase in sales. who lost 20%?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

31st May 2011, 05:14 AM	#29
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Originally Posted by The Fool who lost 20%? I doubt if anyone knows that. Maybe no-one. All or part of the increase could theoretically have come from attracting new smokers and from existing customers smoking more.
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

31st May 2011, 05:55 AM	#30
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Originally Posted by Leif Roar I doubt if anyone knows that. Maybe no-one. All or part of the increase could theoretically have come from attracting new smokers and from existing customers smoking more. One of the attractions of cigarettes as a product is brand loyalty. They are always after those who don't smoke yet.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 05:59 AM	#31
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Originally Posted by Fishstick That's all fine and all, but when it comes to picking out a packet of cigs, how is a generic packaging (rather than color + GIANTWARNING) going to reduce someone's consumption? It's all about pavlovs bell, as far as I can tell. Cigarettes are highly addictive, and the brain associates the act of smoking with the packaging. Take away the shiny colours, make it drab and indistinct, the bell doesn't ring so loud. The fact that the cigarette companies oppose it so strongly indicates the packaging is an important part of maintaining the addiction. It won't make anyone give up, IIRC, so much as allow those who want to give up to do so. it also removes the image that Fool was referring to for those aspiring to be something they aren't.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 06:01 AM	#32
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,466	Originally Posted by The Fool In my youth the cigarette you smoked was a statement about your self image. I smoked the ones that made you a dignified young gentlemen who drove a Jag. Some people were cowboys and other rich young Jet-setters. Tobacco advertising was everywhere. Have we gone far enough yet? Just about. No point making it illegal, but removing the image makes it much less attractive to the youngsters they are chasing. When they are presented as the grubby little things they really are, not tarted up, less people will smoke them. I have to say, I could never see what was supposed to be so rebellious about handing over your hard earned cash to people who didn't care if you lived or died.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

31st May 2011, 06:30 AM	#33
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,676	Originally Posted by a_unique_person It's all about pavlovs bell, as far as I can tell. Cigarettes are highly addictive, and the brain associates the act of smoking with the packaging. Take away the shiny colours, make it drab and indistinct, the bell doesn't ring so loud. I'm not convinced. Smoking is largely a physical addiction, with most of the remaining part being the habit. No-one cares what the packets look like, and certainly no-one tries to show off what packet their fags are in to their friends, it's just a box that the things happen to come in. I very much doubt everyone is going to suddenly give up smoking just because the box is a different colour. Quote: The fact that the cigarette companies oppose it so strongly indicates the packaging is an important part of maintaining the addiction. Not necessarily. What it indicates is that it's an important part of maintaining their personal profits. Brand recognition isn't about getting people to use the product at all, it's about getting people who already want to use a product to choose your specific brand over the competitors'. Brand recognition can cause a large placebo-type effect where people prefer the branded product over an otherwise identical one in different packaging. That's almost certainly what's at stake here - the big manufacturers are worried they're going to lose sales to cheaper ones, because their product will now have to stand solely on its own merits without any help from branding and advertising. A particularly relevant point is that it appears imported Chinese cigarettes are already cheaper than those from the big three tobacco companies, the ones who are campaigning against the law, in Australia. It's not counterfeits they're worried about, it's that without the branding people will just buy those cheaper ones.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

31st May 2011, 06:42 AM	#34
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,301	Just make the new wrappers out of tobacco, and smoke them instead of the cigarettes inside.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

31st May 2011, 10:28 AM	#35
ThunderChunky Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 988	Originally Posted by lionking I suggest you do a bit of research. There are safe consumption levels of sugar and even alcohol. There is no safe consumption level for tobacco. Sure there is, it's just very low. There is no "healthy" amount of tobacco, but then again there is no healthy amount of captain crunch, ice cream, or dough nuts. But, by shear number of people affected, does tobacco cause more health problems than fat or sugar or alcohol? I do not know the stats on that, but if tobacco isn't by biggest problem then this is just posturing. Sugar is marketed directly to kids with cartoons, games and toys, why don't they stop that? Originally Posted by a_unique_person Sure, other things are bad. Cigs aren't being banned, just less cloying. Plenty of people try to give them up and find it difficult when there is temptation everywhere. This just makes them less tempting. The proof is in the uproar being made about the new law by the manufacturers. It is also an attempt to stop children being attracted to them. The companies also use the packaging to attract the young. I do not see how uproar by tobacco companies proves much of anything. There would be uproar by sugar companies if sugar could not be marketed directly to kids too. I wish the gov would do MORE to encourage healthy decisions, but it seems they mostly just go after tobacco.
ThunderChunky Muse Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 988