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Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 09:58 AM

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I AGREE

OK I'm ready to go on a rampage about this ad, it so angered me.

That's all I got right now but I'll post updates on my progress voicing my disgust to J&J.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 10:14 AM

I sent this email to J&J: "I am particularly disturbed by your TV ad implying nurses believe superstition "stacks the deck". (4 leaf clover ED ad). As a member of the science based medicine community and as a nurse, I believe promoting this message is insulting. You are sending the message that DESPITE nursing being science based we are still clinging to superstitious nonsense. BTW, prayer has been shown to have no effect on healing either so this isn't about offending my beliefs. This is about demeaning nurses by implying we believe in superstition and magic."

Please send them your own comments if you are so inclined.
https://secure-www.jnj.com/wps/wcm/jsp/contactUs.jsp

And perhaps we can get some interest in this issue from our colleagues by spreading the word here. Thanks.

madurobob · 8th June 2011, 10:16 AM

Is it that the nurse says she believes in "stacking the deck" and what she is really conveying is that she believes silly superstitions in addition to science?

I don't think that's the only way to interpret it. My first reaction was that it was meant to show a human aspect - compassion - in addition to medical knowledge. Or, put another way, since nurses spend more time with patients than anyone else they need to have excellent interpersonal skills in additional to years of medical training... and that's why we need to support nurses.

ETA: But, I have to admit I'd probably be less on the fence here if it had been a crucifix rather than a shamrock.

DallasDad · 8th June 2011, 10:29 AM

If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Rasmus · 8th June 2011, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by DallasDad

If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

madurobob · 8th June 2011, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by DallasDad

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Yup - same boat.

It is easy to see how someone might be offended. So easy, Johnson & Johnson should have picked up on it as well.

madurobob · 8th June 2011, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.

Monketey Ghost · 8th June 2011, 10:43 AM

Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it.

Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.

Emet · 8th June 2011, 10:50 AM

Here's J&J's Discover Nursing site:

http://www.discovernursing.com/

JohnnyG · 8th June 2011, 10:52 AM

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

Psi Baba · 8th June 2011, 10:53 AM

I first saw that commercial a week or two ago, and also immediately took it as supporting superstition. I was quite surprised to see that, actually. I see the point about showing the compassion aspect, which certainly is an important part of all that nurses do, but I think that could have easily been depicted without the use of a lucky charm. In the ad, the patient doesn't appear to be conscious and so is not likely aware that the nurse placed his keyfob in his hand. Showing her holding his hand should have been sufficient. If they had shown the man's face mouthing the words, "thank you," or something like that, you could argue that the nurse figured the object had meaning to him even if not to her, and that's where the compassion figures in. But the way it plays out, it doesn't come off that way.

Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under and says,
"Here, hold onto this . . . you know, just to stack the deck."

Emet · 8th June 2011, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

You'd be surprised what folks go on rampages about.

I'm a vet. When this movie was released, letters to the editor started pouring in to JAVMA about the vet being depicted in a bad light. I think he was the bad guy in the film.

nimzov · 8th June 2011, 11:01 AM

Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.

Monketey Ghost · 8th June 2011, 11:02 AM

In fact, I don't mean to be a hater, but nurses just love the kind of stuff we ridicule here.

JohnnyG · 8th June 2011, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under and says,
"Here, hold onto this . . . you know, just to stack the deck."

But she isn't handing him a lucky charm, she is giving him back HIS lucky charm that fell out of his pocket.
I don't think a company that makes science-based medical products would make an ad endorsing lucky charms. It certainly wasn't the best choice to demonstrate compassion, but I doubt they intended to endorse anything supernatural. The fact that some take it that way is more a reflection of their own hypersensitivity than evidence J&J thinks nurses should support woo.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Rasmus

I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?

Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

In fact, I don't mean to be a hater, but nurses just love the kind of stuff we ridicule here.

You forgot your smiley:

You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by madurobob

Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.

You don't have to really be looking. You merely need to be sensitized to rational and irrational thinking.

Rasmus · 8th June 2011, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.

Yes, the ad makes the most sense if i assume that they are at least openly approving of the woo.

I often notice a tendency to always assume that whatever was just said or displayed didn't come from a blithering idiot - but sometimes, that is the best explanation

Monketey Ghost · 8th June 2011, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You forgot your smiley:

You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.

I am serious. But it's only my experience. In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14.

In fact, and this is only my experience, nurses are among the most superstitious people I've ever met. And for all the education it requires, many of them are box-of-rocks stupid in areas other than their expertise.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:04 PM

I think perhaps what is being missed by some here is the problem that actually led to me being involved in the skeptical community in the first place. That is the problem of fighting against 'bad' medicine. I've spent 20 years fighting anti-vaxers and snake oil medicine. It's a serious problem in health care. This is one of the worst industries for being plagued with magical beliefs. Perhaps that's why this ad particularly irked me. It promotes 'bad' medicine.

TragicMonkey · 8th June 2011, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under

I'm pretty sure patients aren't allowed to carry much of anything into an operating room with them. There are rules about sterilization and similar. You don't want a sudden convulsion to drop your lucky charm straight into your opened-up chest, after all. That would be....less than lucky.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

I am serious. But it's only my experience. In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14.

In fact, and this is only my experience, nurses are among the most superstitious people I've ever met. And for all the education it requires, many of them are box-of-rocks stupid in areas other than their expertise.

Your anecdotal experience needs a dose of reality. Let me suggest an alternative I've had to deal with in my career as well. Not all nurses are professional nurses. A good many of them are blue collar workers for lack of a better description. I've heard the term "we are our own worst enemy" more than once describing the image nurses have.

I started with a 2 year degree in a 35 bed hospital in a very small town in Colorado. From there I've had jobs in multiple settings all over the country and obtained a masters degree. In that experience I've seen nurses at every level from scientists with PhDs to uncurious patient babysitters.

So whatever your experience is, it simply does not apply to such a broad profession. OTOH, in all walks of life, especially in the US, skeptics and other critical thinkers are in the minority or haven't you noticed? So to find them in the minority among the nurses you work with does not surprise me. I just don't think nurses warrant being singled out as being more superstitious than any other group.

And, I'm pretty sure you'd have a different opinion if you were around mostly ICU nurses or any other specialty or advanced practice nurses where higher education and critical thinking is more a part of the job.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it.

Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.

[nostalgia sidetrack] Interesting little look into my brain many years before I was a more formal skeptic, in that very first job my coworkers were always commenting on the full Moon if we had a particularly busy night. In a 35 bed hospital you do everything from OB to hospice care. So I mapped out the births for a year compared to the lunar cycles and shared it with my co-workers. There was no correlation, it wasn't even close. I never thought about the fact I must have been born a natural skeptic.[/sidetrack]

Pup · 8th June 2011, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.

Yep. The "stacking the deck" message was what blew it for me. Any other kind of bland Hallmark-type message would have worked and implied she was only doing something to comfort him: "also believe in... (pick one) love, compassion, hope, caring, understanding, etc."

But "stacking the deck" implies that the lucky charm won't just comfort him, it will actually tip the outcome in his favor. Yes, some nurses do believe in that kind of thing, but to me, it's not showing the best side of the profession, and it's certainly not the best thing to endorse in an ad that's supposed to be speaking for all of them in a non-controversial, positive way.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

Except for the "stacking the deck" comment.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by nimzov

Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.

Yeah, and lots of medical schools support acupuncture!

Look at the facts. In the 70s there was a study that claimed to have found an measurable effect on hemoglobin after therapeutic touch. So you could forgive nurses for adopting the belief that touch was effective. But I think most of us that bother to think about such things are aware of the teenager who got a published study showing there was no effect.

But this illustrates one reason it is important to object to this ad. Like I said, snake oil medicine is an especially pervasive problem in medicine and we should object to it wherever it might be being promoted.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

But she isn't handing him a lucky charm, she is giving him back HIS lucky charm that fell out of his pocket.
I don't think a company that makes science-based medical products would make an ad endorsing lucky charms. It certainly wasn't the best choice to demonstrate compassion, but I doubt they intended to endorse anything supernatural. The fact that some take it that way is more a reflection of their own hypersensitivity than evidence J&J thinks nurses should support woo.

I would have much less problem with the ad if it didn't include the "stack the deck" comment. If this were about supporting a patient's beliefs, then the compassion message would dominate and it would make sense. But by saying the nurse believes in "stacking the decK" it became about believing the superstition, not being compassionate.

Truthfully, if I saw that dorky keychain in a patient's pocket, I doubt I would have thought of it as something special to the patient. It wasn't even a real clover. It was a dorky keychain. But that may just have been an attempt by the producers to use something clear to the cameras and unlikely to offend any specific group. A cross would offend some and be seen as promoting Christianity. A rabbit's foot would offend PETA and they are a noisy bunch.

JohnnyG · 8th June 2011, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Except for the "stacking the deck" comment.

I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

madurobob · 8th June 2011, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You don't have to really be looking. You merely need to be sensitized to rational and irrational thinking.

Well, probably more like sensitized to the specific issue of woo and nurses. You'd have to very sensitive to issues of woo and nursing to be upset with an advertisement for drawing a distinction between compassion and science in nursing. Until this thread I hadn't considered that nurses might be considered more woo-prone that average.

I took "stacking the deck" to mean "using compassion in addition to cold, hard science based medicine". But given what I've heard about nurses here I may need to revise my opinion. If there is a problem with woo beliefs in nursing, this advert did nothing to help.

fls · 8th June 2011, 01:15 PM

For what it's worth, I had the same reaction when I first saw the commercial a few weeks ago. The impression given is that you demonstrate compassion by buying into vague magical beliefs. To point out that practices which aren't evidence-based are not likely to be useful really means that you are uncaring.

Linda

Loss Leader · 8th June 2011, 01:31 PM

I saw the ad and found it strange. J&J has had a lot of success with "issue" ads that don't directly sell their products. But this one did not work for the reasons stated.

CaveDave · 8th June 2011, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by madurobob

Is it that the nurse says she believes in "stacking the deck" and what she is really conveying is that she believes silly superstitions in addition to science?

I don't think that's the only way to interpret it. My first reaction was that it was meant to show a human aspect - compassion - in addition to medical knowledge. Or, put another way, since nurses spend more time with patients than anyone else they need to have excellent interpersonal skills in additional to years of medical training... and that's why we need to support nurses.

ETA: But, I have to admit I'd probably be less on the fence here if it had been a crucifix rather than a shamrock.

Originally Posted by DallasDad

If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly.

Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.

Originally Posted by madurobob

Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science.

I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.

I fully agree.

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it.

Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.

Originally Posted by nimzov

Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.

This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

Cheers,

Dave

lionking · 8th June 2011, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?

CaveDave · 8th June 2011, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pup

Yep. The "stacking the deck" message was what blew it for me. Any other kind of bland Hallmark-type message would have worked and implied she was only doing something to comfort him: "also believe in... (pick one) love, compassion, hope, caring, understanding, etc."

But "stacking the deck" implies that the lucky charm won't just comfort him, it will actually tip the outcome in his favor. Yes, some nurses do believe in that kind of thing, but to me, it's not showing the best side of the profession, and it's certainly not the best thing to endorse in an ad that's supposed to be speaking for all of them in a non-controversial, positive way.

Perhaps, some are overlooking the POSSIBILITY that patient outcome MAY also be influenced (to even a SMALL degree) by patient mental state, attitude, and confidence in the course of treatment?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Except for the "stacking the deck" comment.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I would have much less problem with the ad if it didn't include the "stack the deck" comment. If this were about supporting a patient's beliefs, then the compassion message would dominate and it would make sense. But by saying the nurse believes in "stacking the decK" it became about believing the superstition, not being compassionate.

Truthfully, if I saw that dorky keychain in a patient's pocket, I doubt I would have thought of it as something special to the patient. It wasn't even a real clover. It was a dorky keychain. But that may just have been an attempt by the producers to use something clear to the cameras and unlikely to offend any specific group. A cross would offend some and be seen as promoting Christianity. A rabbit's foot would offend PETA and they are a noisy bunch.

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

Originally Posted by madurobob

Well, probably more like sensitized to the specific issue of woo and nurses. You'd have to very sensitive to issues of woo and nursing to be upset with an advertisement for drawing a distinction between compassion and science in nursing. Until this thread I hadn't considered that nurses might be considered more woo-prone that average.

I took "stacking the deck" to mean "using compassion in addition to cold, hard science based medicine". But given what I've heard about nurses here I may need to revise my opinion. If there is a problem with woo beliefs in nursing, this advert did nothing to help.

FWIW

Cheers,

Dave

fls · 8th June 2011, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by CaveDave

This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

Cheers,

Dave

That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/

However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada.

Linda

Pup · 8th June 2011, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?

We don't really know why she was doing what she was doing. If the ad was meant to show that she thought she was "stacking the deck" in the patient's favor by trying to bring him luck, I see the harm as probably similar to what Skeptic Ginger sees: it implied she might not be as focussed on evidence-based treatments as she claimed, if she thought the charm would do any good as a charm.

@CaveDave

If the message was meant to imply she was giving him the lucky charm because he believed in it and she wanted to help his morale, then I think that needed to be made clearer, with something non-supernatural like a photo of a loved one from his wallet for example, or (probably more offensive for different reasons) handing a cross or rosary to one person and a symbol of some other religion to another.

Actually, I thought that he was semi-conscious and therefore not aware of what she was handing him, which probably made me more apt to interpret it as something for luck, not for his morale. Without re-watching it, I don't recall him giving any thank-you reaction, but I may have missed it.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th June 2011, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyG

I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.

No way. The comment follows directly after 'relying on science' and focusing in on the charm.

Dr. Keith · 8th June 2011, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by CaveDave

I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science"

I have an anecdote to add to this observation and some thoughts on where it comes from, at least in this case:

The most religious person in my family is a pediatrician. I used to bristle a bit at her insistence that Jesus is the source of her strength mainly because she was so logical on so many other topics. I mean, she taught me the phrase "zebra chaser" for those who ignore Occam's razor and nothing gets her riled up more than anti-vaxers. Over time I have found that her job is very trying for her and she doesn't get a lot of support from her immediate family. It is tough for her to have kids die in her care and I don't think she feels like her family should have to deal with it. For her, Jesus is the answer to this problem. I don't think it is the best answer, but I understand her reasons and I would never try to take that away from her.

She takes a very scientific approach to her treatment of patients and feels that God has helped her to acquire those skills for these people and it is her duty to live up to that potential. To do less would be to ignore the obvious gifts she was given. But at the end of the day, when she gets to go home to her healthy kids after telling another mother that her child will die in the hospital, she needs to unload that burden to whatever fantasy is willing to take it.

Dissecting the synoptic gospels or exposing the inconsistencies of Genesis seem a bit petty in that context.

JohnnyG · 8th June 2011, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

No way. The comment follows directly after 'relying on science' and focusing in on the charm.

Do you really think J&J is trying to advocate lucky charms as an impoartant aspect of nursing?

8th June 2011, 10:14 AM	#2
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	I sent this email to J&J: "I am particularly disturbed by your TV ad implying nurses believe superstition "stacks the deck". (4 leaf clover ED ad). As a member of the science based medicine community and as a nurse, I believe promoting this message is insulting. You are sending the message that DESPITE nursing being science based we are still clinging to superstitious nonsense. BTW, prayer has been shown to have no effect on healing either so this isn't about offending my beliefs. This is about demeaning nurses by implying we believe in superstition and magic." Please send them your own comments if you are so inclined. https://secure-www.jnj.com/wps/wcm/jsp/contactUs.jsp And perhaps we can get some interest in this issue from our colleagues by spreading the word here. Thanks.
	__________________ (Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.) Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 8th June 2011 at 10:15 AM.*

8th June 2011, 10:16 AM	#3
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,580	Is it that the nurse says she believes in "stacking the deck" and what she is really conveying is that she believes silly superstitions in addition to science? I don't think that's the only way to interpret it. My first reaction was that it was meant to show a human aspect - compassion - in addition to medical knowledge. Or, put another way, since nurses spend more time with patients than anyone else they need to have excellent interpersonal skills in additional to years of medical training... and that's why we need to support nurses. ETA: But, I have to admit I'd probably be less on the fence here if it had been a crucifix rather than a shamrock.
	__________________ Insert witty phrase or out of context post by another member here. Last edited by madurobob; 8th June 2011 at 10:19 AM.

8th June 2011, 10:29 AM	#4
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 690	If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly. Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way.
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 690

8th June 2011, 10:34 AM	#5
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	Originally Posted by DallasDad If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly. Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way. I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science?
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	__________________ "Well, the religious community could not just make it up." - JetLeg

8th June 2011, 10:35 AM	#6
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,580	Originally Posted by DallasDad Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way. Yup - same boat. It is easy to see how someone might be offended. So easy, Johnson & Johnson should have picked up on it as well.
	__________________ Insert witty phrase or out of context post by another member here.

8th June 2011, 10:40 AM	#7
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,580	Originally Posted by Rasmus And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science? Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse.
	__________________ Insert witty phrase or out of context post by another member here.

8th June 2011, 10:43 AM	#8
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,812	Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it. Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

8th June 2011, 10:50 AM	#9
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	Here's J&J's Discover Nursing site: http://www.discovernursing.com/
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8th June 2011, 10:52 AM	#10
JohnnyG Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 256	I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science. I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh.
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8th June 2011, 10:53 AM	#11
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,209	I first saw that commercial a week or two ago, and also immediately took it as supporting superstition. I was quite surprised to see that, actually. I see the point about showing the compassion aspect, which certainly is an important part of all that nurses do, but I think that could have easily been depicted without the use of a lucky charm. In the ad, the patient doesn't appear to be conscious and so is not likely aware that the nurse placed his keyfob in his hand. Showing her holding his hand should have been sufficient. If they had shown the man's face mouthing the words, "thank you," or something like that, you could argue that the nurse figured the object had meaning to him even if not to her, and that's where the compassion figures in. But the way it plays out, it doesn't come off that way. Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under and says, "Here, hold onto this . . . you know, just to stack the deck."
	Last edited by Psi Baba; 8th June 2011 at 10:55 AM.

8th June 2011, 10:58 AM	#12
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	Originally Posted by JohnnyG I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh. You'd be surprised what folks go on rampages about. I'm a vet. When this movie was released, letters to the editor started pouring in to JAVMA about the vet being depicted in a bad light. I think he was the bad guy in the film.
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8th June 2011, 11:01 AM	#13
nimzov Muse Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Montréal Posts: 919	Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch.
	Last edited by nimzov; 8th June 2011 at 11:02 AM.

8th June 2011, 11:02 AM	#14
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,812	In fact, I don't mean to be a hater, but nurses just love the kind of stuff we ridicule here.
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8th June 2011, 11:12 AM	#15
JohnnyG Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 256	Originally Posted by Psi Baba Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under and says, "Here, hold onto this . . . you know, just to stack the deck." But she isn't handing him a lucky charm, she is giving him back HIS lucky charm that fell out of his pocket. I don't think a company that makes science-based medical products would make an ad endorsing lucky charms. It certainly wasn't the best choice to demonstrate compassion, but I doubt they intended to endorse anything supernatural. The fact that some take it that way is more a reflection of their own hypersensitivity than evidence J&J thinks nurses should support woo.
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8th June 2011, 11:56 AM	#16
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by Rasmus I would - why should the ad have a lucky charm rather than any other object the patient could have dropped? And why would compassion need to be contrasted with science? Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher.
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8th June 2011, 11:57 AM	#17
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost In fact, I don't mean to be a hater, but nurses just love the kind of stuff we ridicule here. You forgot your smiley: You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it.
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8th June 2011, 12:00 PM	#18
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by madurobob Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse. You don't have to really be looking. You merely need to be sensitized to rational and irrational thinking.
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8th June 2011, 12:02 PM	#19
Rasmus Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,139	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher. Yes, the ad makes the most sense if i assume that they are at least openly approving of the woo. I often notice a tendency to always assume that whatever was just said or displayed didn't come from a blithering idiot - but sometimes, that is the best explanation
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8th June 2011, 12:03 PM	#20
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,812	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger You forgot your smiley: You have no basis for that insulting stereotype if you were serious. Nurses are no more nor less irrational than any other profession with an equivalent level of science in it. I am serious. But it's only my experience. In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14. In fact, and this is only my experience, nurses are among the most superstitious people I've ever met. And for all the education it requires, many of them are box-of-rocks stupid in areas other than their expertise.
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8th June 2011, 12:04 PM	#21
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	I think perhaps what is being missed by some here is the problem that actually led to me being involved in the skeptical community in the first place. That is the problem of fighting against 'bad' medicine. I've spent 20 years fighting anti-vaxers and snake oil medicine. It's a serious problem in health care. This is one of the worst industries for being plagued with magical beliefs. Perhaps that's why this ad particularly irked me. It promotes 'bad' medicine.
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8th June 2011, 12:06 PM	#22
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,281	Originally Posted by Psi Baba Imagine if a doctor handed you a scrip and a four-leaf clover, or he hands you one while you're on the operating table just before being put under I'm pretty sure patients aren't allowed to carry much of anything into an operating room with them. There are rules about sterilization and similar. You don't want a sudden convulsion to drop your lucky charm straight into your opened-up chest, after all. That would be....less than lucky.
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8th June 2011, 12:16 PM	#23
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost I am serious. But it's only my experience. In the hospital where I work there are no room 13's. Dead serious, the room numbers go from 12 to 14. In fact, and this is only my experience, nurses are among the most superstitious people I've ever met. And for all the education it requires, many of them are box-of-rocks stupid in areas other than their expertise. Your anecdotal experience needs a dose of reality. Let me suggest an alternative I've had to deal with in my career as well. Not all nurses are professional nurses. A good many of them are blue collar workers for lack of a better description. I've heard the term "we are our own worst enemy" more than once describing the image nurses have. I started with a 2 year degree in a 35 bed hospital in a very small town in Colorado. From there I've had jobs in multiple settings all over the country and obtained a masters degree. In that experience I've seen nurses at every level from scientists with PhDs to uncurious patient babysitters. So whatever your experience is, it simply does not apply to such a broad profession. OTOH, in all walks of life, especially in the US, skeptics and other critical thinkers are in the minority or haven't you noticed? So to find them in the minority among the nurses you work with does not surprise me. I just don't think nurses warrant being singled out as being more superstitious than any other group. And, I'm pretty sure you'd have a different opinion if you were around mostly ICU nurses or any other specialty or advanced practice nurses where higher education and critical thinking is more a part of the job.
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8th June 2011, 12:23 PM	#24
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it. Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts. [nostalgia sidetrack] Interesting little look into my brain many years before I was a more formal skeptic, in that very first job my coworkers were always commenting on the full Moon if we had a particularly busy night. In a 35 bed hospital you do everything from OB to hospice care. So I mapped out the births for a year compared to the lunar cycles and shared it with my co-workers. There was no correlation, it wasn't even close. I never thought about the fact I must have been born a natural skeptic.[/sidetrack]
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8th June 2011, 12:24 PM	#25
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,626	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Exactly. How about a picture of his kids or something. If I wasn't a sensitized skeptic, yes the "we care" message might have dominated, but the "stack the deck" is the clincher. Yep. The "stacking the deck" message was what blew it for me. Any other kind of bland Hallmark-type message would have worked and implied she was only doing something to comfort him: "also believe in... (pick one) love, compassion, hope, caring, understanding, etc." But "stacking the deck" implies that the lucky charm won't just comfort him, it will actually tip the outcome in his favor. Yes, some nurses do believe in that kind of thing, but to me, it's not showing the best side of the profession, and it's certainly not the best thing to endorse in an ad that's supposed to be speaking for all of them in a non-controversial, positive way.
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8th June 2011, 12:24 PM	#26
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by JohnnyG I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science. I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh. Except for the "stacking the deck" comment.
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8th June 2011, 12:30 PM	#27
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by nimzov Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch. Yeah, and lots of medical schools support acupuncture! Look at the facts. In the 70s there was a study that claimed to have found an measurable effect on hemoglobin after therapeutic touch. So you could forgive nurses for adopting the belief that touch was effective. But I think most of us that bother to think about such things are aware of the teenager who got a published study showing there was no effect. But this illustrates one reason it is important to object to this ad. Like I said, snake oil medicine is an especially pervasive problem in medicine and we should object to it wherever it might be being promoted.
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8th June 2011, 12:36 PM	#28
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by JohnnyG But she isn't handing him a lucky charm, she is giving him back HIS lucky charm that fell out of his pocket. I don't think a company that makes science-based medical products would make an ad endorsing lucky charms. It certainly wasn't the best choice to demonstrate compassion, but I doubt they intended to endorse anything supernatural. The fact that some take it that way is more a reflection of their own hypersensitivity than evidence J&J thinks nurses should support woo. I would have much less problem with the ad if it didn't include the "stack the deck" comment. If this were about supporting a patient's beliefs, then the compassion message would dominate and it would make sense. But by saying the nurse believes in "stacking the decK" it became about believing the superstition, not being compassionate. Truthfully, if I saw that dorky keychain in a patient's pocket, I doubt I would have thought of it as something special to the patient. It wasn't even a real clover. It was a dorky keychain. But that may just have been an attempt by the producers to use something clear to the cameras and unlikely to offend any specific group. A cross would offend some and be seen as promoting Christianity. A rabbit's foot would offend PETA and they are a noisy bunch.
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8th June 2011, 12:42 PM	#29
JohnnyG Critical Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 256	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Except for the "stacking the deck" comment. I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage.
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8th June 2011, 12:43 PM	#30
madurobob Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blue Heaven, NC Posts: 5,580	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger You don't have to really be looking. You merely need to be sensitized to rational and irrational thinking. Well, probably more like sensitized to the specific issue of woo and nurses. You'd have to very sensitive to issues of woo and nursing to be upset with an advertisement for drawing a distinction between compassion and science in nursing. Until this thread I hadn't considered that nurses might be considered more woo-prone that average. I took "stacking the deck" to mean "using compassion in addition to cold, hard science based medicine". But given what I've heard about nurses here I may need to revise my opinion. If there is a problem with woo beliefs in nursing, this advert did nothing to help.
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8th June 2011, 01:15 PM	#31
fls Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,236	For what it's worth, I had the same reaction when I first saw the commercial a few weeks ago. The impression given is that you demonstrate compassion by buying into vague magical beliefs. To point out that practices which aren't evidence-based are not likely to be useful really means that you are uncaring. Linda
	__________________ God:a capricious creative or controlling force said to be the subject of a religion. Evidence is anything that tends to make a proposition more or less true.-Loss Leader SCAM will now be referred to as DIM (Demonstrably Ineffective Medicine) Look how nicely I'm not reminding you you're dumb.-Happy Bunny When I give an example, do not assume I am excluding every other possible example. Thank you.

8th June 2011, 01:31 PM	#32
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,890	I saw the ad and found it strange. J&J has had a lot of success with "issue" ads that don't directly sell their products. But this one did not work for the reasons stated.
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8th June 2011, 01:32 PM	#33
CaveDave Semicentenarian Troglodyte Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Buddy Holly's home, Surrounded by tumbleweeds, duststorms, and tornados. Posts: 1,760	Originally Posted by madurobob Is it that the nurse says she believes in "stacking the deck" and what she is really conveying is that she believes silly superstitions in addition to science? I don't think that's the only way to interpret it. My first reaction was that it was meant to show a human aspect - compassion - in addition to medical knowledge. Or, put another way, since nurses spend more time with patients than anyone else they need to have excellent interpersonal skills in additional to years of medical training... and that's why we need to support nurses. ETA: But, I have to admit I'd probably be less on the fence here if it had been a crucifix rather than a shamrock. Originally Posted by DallasDad If you hadn't pointed out it could be interpreted as the nurse supporting superstitition, I wouldn't have thought of it. I interpreted the action as showing compassion, trying to make the patient feel better, etc., even if the nurse found the ideas silly. Now I'm conflicted. Someone could easily interpret it the first way. Originally Posted by madurobob Well, that is more cultural. We always talk about "cold hard science" and "human warmth". You have to really be looking to be offended to take issue with that alone in this ad. Its a selling point - the ad is selling the idea of nursing and compassion is something everyone can recognize as a good quality in a nurse. Originally Posted by JohnnyG I didn't take it to mean that the nurse believes in superstition, but when she noticed the four leaf clover she realized that the patient may be a believer. She puts it in his hand for his reassurance, not because she is superstitious. The ad is basically saying that compassion is an important part of nursing in addition to science. I think this ad is a trivial thing to go on a rampage about. If Johnson & Johnson were marketing a four leaf clover for the enhanced treatment of ER patients, yes...I'll stand with you. But this? Meh. I fully agree. Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost Rn's believe in all sorts of paranormal crapola. Full-moon effect, number 13, you name it and an idiot nurse believes it. Sorry but it's true. I've done informal polls quietly, and listened. Yesterday a bunch of Rn's were sitting around at the nurse's station babbling about their experiences with haunted houses and ghosts. Originally Posted by nimzov Quite a few nurses organisations support therapeutic touch. This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science" Cheers, Dave
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8th June 2011, 01:46 PM	#34
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,983	Originally Posted by JohnnyG I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage. Same here. What harm was the nurse doing?
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8th June 2011, 01:51 PM	#35
CaveDave Semicentenarian Troglodyte Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Buddy Holly's home, Surrounded by tumbleweeds, duststorms, and tornados. Posts: 1,760	Originally Posted by Pup Yep. The "stacking the deck" message was what blew it for me. Any other kind of bland Hallmark-type message would have worked and implied she was only doing something to comfort him: "also believe in... (pick one) love, compassion, hope, caring, understanding, etc." But "stacking the deck" implies that the lucky charm won't just comfort him, it will actually tip the outcome in his favor. Yes, some nurses do believe in that kind of thing, but to me, it's not showing the best side of the profession, and it's certainly not the best thing to endorse in an ad that's supposed to be speaking for all of them in a non-controversial, positive way. Perhaps, some are overlooking the POSSIBILITY that patient outcome MAY also be influenced (to even a SMALL degree) by patient mental state, attitude, and confidence in the course of treatment? Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Except for the "stacking the deck" comment. Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I would have much less problem with the ad if it didn't include the "stack the deck" comment. If this were about supporting a patient's beliefs, then the compassion message would dominate and it would make sense. But by saying the nurse believes in "stacking the decK" it became about believing the superstition, not being compassionate. Truthfully, if I saw that dorky keychain in a patient's pocket, I doubt I would have thought of it as something special to the patient. It wasn't even a real clover. It was a dorky keychain. But that may just have been an attempt by the producers to use something clear to the cameras and unlikely to offend any specific group. A cross would offend some and be seen as promoting Christianity. A rabbit's foot would offend PETA and they are a noisy bunch. Originally Posted by JohnnyG I took the "stacking the deck" comment to apply to the compassionate side of nursing, not specifically the lucky charm. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think taking this as an endorsement of woo is a stretch and there are much better places to focus your rage. Originally Posted by madurobob Well, probably more like sensitized to the specific issue of woo and nurses. You'd have to very sensitive to issues of woo and nursing to be upset with an advertisement for drawing a distinction between compassion and science in nursing. Until this thread I hadn't considered that nurses might be considered more woo-prone that average. I took "stacking the deck" to mean "using compassion in addition to cold, hard science based medicine". But given what I've heard about nurses here I may need to revise my opinion. If there is a problem with woo beliefs in nursing, this advert did nothing to help. FWIW Cheers, Dave
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8th June 2011, 01:58 PM	#36
fls Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 10,236	Originally Posted by CaveDave This is also quite true. I have noticed that medical people, especially Physicians, tend to be more prone to Religion and other Superstitious Beliefs more often than most other "People of Science" Cheers, Dave That is my impression as well. I found a survey which seems to back this up. http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/050714/doctorsfaith.shtml http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1490160/ However, that is from the United States and religiosity is higher there to begin with. I'm looking for something from Canada. Linda
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