[Merged] Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth - (Part 2) - Page 25

joolz · 23rd January 2012, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Well to be fair, atheists haven't been demanding proof until comparatively recently....

You are kidding right?

Why should we be asking for proof anyway? You are the one with the imaginary friend. Atheists are rational. If you really want to convince us to believe in your god then you should be falling over yourselves to offer us evidence without us even asking.

You are clearly happy with atheism as you don't see the need to provide any evidence of your imaginary friend. Maybe you'd like to be an atheist too since you have no evidence of your god?

OCaptain · 23rd January 2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Because those are the things that the New Testament writers wrote about.

Haven't you read it yet?

Most of us don't think it is and that's why we keep asking for evidence.

Do you have any?

I already knew the former to be true and it's too late to prevent the latter.

Not at all. DOC can't be here all the time so it's nice of you to stand in for a while.

Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament ( which you'll find out if you look at pages 6, 10, and 11 of my post history. The normal day-to-day life of the times, events, people and stuff.

Boring compared to what you seem to be looking for.

Resume · 23rd January 2012, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament

Well, since the topic of the thread is the new testament . . . have you read the thread at all?

OCaptain · 23rd January 2012, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

Well, since the topic of the thread is the new testament . . . have you read the thread at all?

How much buys me more civility than Oliver? I've only made about halfway through.

What do I win?

joobz · 23rd January 2012, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Thanks for the surprising candor and welcoming spirit. Would you recommend a good thread where I can find the kind of civil, intellectual discussion I am seeking?

I would also suggest checking forum rules. The biggest complaint everyone has here (and it is understandable) is that you are not discussing the thread topic. This is called "derailing" and is typically frowned upon. Mainly becuase it distracts from the OP (original post) topic.

More practically to you, is that other forumites who may be interested in your discussion wouldn't see it as most typically avoid this thread. (Note this thread is the oblivion plane of the forum. Only spoken of by others in hushed tones of sadness and despair)

If you are interested in a civil discussion, I recommend starting a thread of your own in Religion and Philosophy on the topic of your choice. If you start a thread with a cordial and open demeanor, you will most likely receive that in kind(exceptions do exist, you are free to place these people on ignore). If you start one with a challenge or derision, you will only get what you give.

Resume · 23rd January 2012, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

How much buys me more civility than Oliver? I've only made about halfway through.

What do I win?

A buck three-eighty answers both your questions.

ETA: joobz is offering very good advice.

Akhenaten · 23rd January 2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles.

Nobody is suggesting that it is, but since it's a belief in these sorts of things - particularly the resurrection - on which Christianity is founded then they are of somewhat more significance than trivial stuff like a few place names or whether the bloody Colossians were backsliding into the worship of elemental spirits.

Originally Posted by OCaptain

What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament ( which you'll find out if you look at pages 6, 10, and 11 of my post history. The normal day-to-day life of the times, events, people and stuff.

Fine, start a thread about it.

This thread is about the New Testament and these aren't the Hebrews you're looking for.

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Boring compared to what you seem to be looking for.

We're looking for some evidence to back up the OP's claim that he knows the New Testament writers told the truth and it's been anything but boring, as you'd know if you'd bothered to acquaint yourself with the thread.

OCaptain · 23rd January 2012, 07:00 PM

Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated.

Akhenaten · 23rd January 2012, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576.

Yeah, good, You've only got 519 pages and 20,729 posts to go before you're all caught up.

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated.

Originally Posted by Resume

Originally Posted by OCaptain

What do you think of redaction criticism?

I ask because I was reading a recent exchange on the biblical studies yahoo listserve in which both redaction criticism and Q were roundly ridiculed by a good number of the scholars on-hand.

I like the way the highlighted words work together.

You'll live.

joobz · 23rd January 2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated.

I remember now.
Interestingly, I gave similar advice last time as well.
I also remember reading many fun exchanges between you and Piggy and others.
It unfortunately died.

OCaptain · 23rd January 2012, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Yeah, good, You've only got 519 pages and 20,729 posts to go before you're all caught up.

You'll live.

And Welshdean's response to me (post #603) Where he confuses me with a Fundie, and suggests that "Fundies have no place in the 21st century, and the sooner this world is free of them, the sooner we can all enjoy a true 'enlightenment'". That even fits Dafydd's definition of hate (wishing harm or death to others).

Jeez, what more do you want? The irony is lost on most of you. We've had almost this same damn conversation last year, with the same people saying the same thing. (and even then, joobz was the voice of reason -way to go, joobz).

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

That's your stomp?

That's the most polite stomp I have received since arriving at JREF.

If you hadn't told me, I would have missed it! Thanks.

I've only encountered you today.

It took me one post to get the measure of you.

You're pretty interchangable with others of your type.

When you leave, another will take you place.

So it goes.

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Yes, but I'm not DOC. Why can't you guys give everyone the benefit of the doubt and allow each to demonstrate who he/she is?

As I said, you're all pretty interchangable - different names, same arrogant ignorance.

You, DOC - it really doesn't matter.

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

I am not a troll.

Yes, you are.

You are a Troll for Jesus.

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Thanks for the surprising candor and welcoming spirit. Would you recommend a good thread where I can find the kind of civil, intellectual discussion I am seeking?

Answers In Genesis.

(seems to be about your speed)

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated.

I suspect he was adapting his response to best suit his respondee.

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

And Welshdean's response to me (post #603) Where he confuses me with a Fundie, and suggests that "Fundies have no place in the 21st century, and the sooner this world is free of them, the sooner we can all enjoy a true 'enlightenment'".

If you don't want to be confused with a fundie, don't write with the ignorance and inanity of one.

OCaptain · 23rd January 2012, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

I suspect he was adapting his response to best suit his respondee.

And somehow, I'm not shocked to learn your suspicion is wrong.

It's not my fault you can't be bothered. That's your baggage.

Whatever.

Complexity · 23rd January 2012, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

And somehow, I'm not shocked to learn your suspicion is wrong.

It's not my fault you can't be bothered. That's your baggage.

Whatever.

Bothered? To do what?

Invest time and energy in this interaction?

Been there, done that. You're all the same.

What I enjoy are discussions with intelligent people on interesting topics.

Those discussions ~~rarely~~ never happen in threads like this one.

(there are some intelligent people posting in this thread, but the topic sucks)

tsig · 23rd January 2012, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

And what is my paradigm?

And, I chose my words because the perspectives among some at JREF when it comes to anything with regard to the Ancient Near East (specifically where it touches upon the bible) is quite unique in its aggressiveness. I'd seen and experienced skepticism in the past, of course, but some take it to a different level of near-hatred here.

My observations, of course.

Why do you feel it necessary to inject emotion into the argument? How do you know the emotions of the other posters?

tsig · 23rd January 2012, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by SezMe

Remember, Ethnikos, that this thread is about Jesus' existence. Your above statement is about as tight a circular reasoning as one could imagine.

Originally Posted by Greedo

I don't know if he existed, nor do I care, nor do I think it would make a difference. Even if proven to have existed, he'd be nothing more than a fraud, and if not that, a nutjob with delusions. People can be convinced of almost anything today, think back 2000 years ago when people were even more superstitious.

Originally Posted by Hugo

I'm actually interested in what this thread will bring up too
All the arguments I've heard for an actual person being the source of the stories (Josephus, Tacitus, ...) are either controversial and disputed with as much vigor as they are proposed.
I'm inclined to think there is no actual evidence (and it is not possible) so I'll say probably didn't exist, and doesn't matter for the miracle claims anyway.

Originally Posted by OCaptain

I find many of the posts by atheists in this thread (and not just the ones directed at me) quite hateful in spirit. Civility long ago stripped away leaving mocking, derisions and ultimatums.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215446

The quotes are from that thread. Please point out the hate.

tsig · 23rd January 2012, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

How do you expect this conversation to go from here on? I am not here to provide a target at which to snipe and better about yourself. I am not a troll. I suppose I am more used to civil discourse, even among people who are theists and atheists.

Was hoping to find that here.

You find here what you bring here.

tsig · 23rd January 2012, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament ( which you'll find out if you look at pages 6, 10, and 11 of my post history. The normal day-to-day life of the times, events, people and stuff.

Boring compared to what you seem to be looking for.

You haven't read the NT?

amb · 23rd January 2012, 11:53 PM

Yawn!

dafydd · 24th January 2012, 03:14 AM

Double yawn. Are Doc and OCaptain related?

Resume · 24th January 2012, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated.

I don't think you understood it. The way you don't seem to understand the thread topic.

Now, do you possess some evidence in regard to the veracity of the new testament?

X · 24th January 2012, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Yes, but I'm not DOC. Why can't you guys give everyone the benefit of the doubt and allow each to demonstrate who he/she is?

I never said or implied you were DOC. If you'll recall, I was replying to DOC and asking him why he thought the comparison he was making was valid.

In short, I did exactly what you are demanding here,, and allowed DOC to demonstrate who he is (a xenophobe). I made no comment on anyone else. If you choose to feel that I was applying my comments to you, or even theists in general, that's your prerogative. It's wrong, and the content of my posts shows that, but you may feel broad-brushed if you want to.

catsmate1 · 24th January 2012, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

When you ask someone, in essence, "who are you to speak?", that is nothing but a challenge.

When you make an unsupported argument from authority here, expect it to be challenged.

OCaptain · 24th January 2012, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

You haven't read the NT?

Stop it.

I have read it. I can't believe basics like that for a thread like this aren't assumed.

I can do an analysis of it to see the verse count for prosaic. Vs miraculous subjects, but why should I do your work for you? You've got this thread soooo well in hand.

OCaptain · 24th January 2012, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

When you make an unsupported argument from authority here, expect it to be challenged.

Oh, do tell? Which one did I make?

Oh, and by the by, that's called making an appeal TO authority. So, for example, if I said "Steve Jobs is an expert on blue, and he said "blue is the best color of all". That's how I know blue is the best color". See, the reason that's a fallacy is because Steve Jobs is NOT an expert on blue. If you'd read his biography, you'd know that.

OCaptain · 24th January 2012, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

I don't think you understood it. The way you don't seem to understand the thread topic.

Now, do you possess some evidence in regard to the veracity of the new testament?

You didn't read your own post or there is no way you could have said that with a straight face.

Come on. You played with the fricking highlight tool in an uneducated attempt to make fun of something you didn't understand (and still don't understand) - an email list serve hosted by Yahoo where scholars in fields related to biblical research come to discuss publications, studies, questions, issues, etc.

That doesn't speak well for your ability and willingness to fill in blanks in your knowledge. To me, that is the biggest disappointment of all for me in my exchanges with you.

Resume · 24th January 2012, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

To me, that is the biggest disappointment of all for me in my exchanges with you.

Didn't realize you had any expectations.

Now, as to the thread topic once again, do you possess evidence for it?

Resume · 24th January 2012, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

That doesn't speak well for your ability and willingness to fill in blanks in your knowledge.

I fill the blanks in my knowledge just fine thanks. Every day as a matter of fact, where I deem necessary. I have some self-irony in regard to what I know, and what I need to know.

So, will you be presenting evidence as to the thread topic?

OCaptain · 24th January 2012, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

I fill the blanks in my knowledge just fine thanks. Every day as a matter of fact, where I deem necessary. I have some self-irony in regard to what I know, and what I need to know.

So, will you be presenting evidence as to the thread topic?

Oh, how ironic. For all the accusations of not reading the thread I have gotten in the past 12 hours, if you'd read just MY posts, you'd see I already answered this question.

Not doing it again just for you. Please check and get back to me.

Resume · 24th January 2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

Oh, how ironic. For all the accusations of not reading the thread I have gotten in the past 12 hours, if you'd read just MY posts, you'd see I already answered this question.

Not doing it again just for you. Please check and get back to me.

One of the assertions in DOC's original, #1 post was that the new testament writers gave evidence for miracles. Whether or not you're interested in miracles is off topic. Do you have any evidence for the new testament writers telling the truth about miracles?

Thanks.

DOC · 24th January 2012, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Professor Thomas Arnold of Oxford (Author of the History of Rome) would have disagreed with you.

Thomas Arnold quote:

“I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead.”

Originally Posted by Craig4

Would the professor care to provide evidence of this?

Well, he has passed away but you might read his 3 volume “History of Rome” to get an idea of his understanding of the biblical era; here is some evidence however:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...46#post5959646

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...25#post6366925

http://books.google.com/books?id=PCG...easons&f=false

Originally Posted by Craig4

Care to show us evidence that your Jesus character actually rose from the dead?

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/...les/josh2.html

OCaptain · 24th January 2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

One of the assertions in DOC's original, #1 post was that the new testament writers gave evidence for miracles. Whether or not you're interested in miracles is off topic. Do you have any evidence for the new testament writers telling the truth about miracles?

Thanks.

You still haven't found it.

Off you go.

Resume · 24th January 2012, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

You still haven't found it.

Off you go.

Seems dishonest of you.

zooterkin · 24th January 2012, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by OCaptain

You still haven't found it.

Hard to see something that's not there.

ddt · 24th January 2012, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by DOC

Well, he has passed away but you might read his 3 volume “History of Rome” to get an idea of his understanding of the biblical era; here is some evidence however:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...46#post5959646

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...25#post6366925

You like linking back to your own garbage?

Originally Posted by DOC

http://books.google.com/books?id=PCG...easons&f=false

Again with that failed book that half of the posters here can't read online?

Originally Posted by DOC

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/...les/josh2.html

And we've gone over that one several times too. You failed miserably there too.

Can't you at least come up with something new to try?

23rd January 2012, 06:22 PM	#961
joolz Medusa Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Scotland, Yurp Posts: 1,629	Originally Posted by OCaptain Well to be fair, atheists haven't been demanding proof until comparatively recently.... You are kidding right? Why should we be asking for proof anyway? You are the one with the imaginary friend. Atheists are rational. If you really want to convince us to believe in your god then you should be falling over yourselves to offer us evidence without us even asking. You are clearly happy with atheism as you don't see the need to provide any evidence of your imaginary friend. Maybe you'd like to be an atheist too since you have no evidence of your god?
	__________________ The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. Stephen Hawking

23rd January 2012, 06:25 PM	#962
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Because those are the things that the New Testament writers wrote about. Haven't you read it yet? Most of us don't think it is and that's why we keep asking for evidence. Do you have any? I already knew the former to be true and it's too late to prevent the latter. Not at all. DOC can't be here all the time so it's nice of you to stand in for a while. Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament ( which you'll find out if you look at pages 6, 10, and 11 of my post history. The normal day-to-day life of the times, events, people and stuff. Boring compared to what you seem to be looking for.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

23rd January 2012, 06:33 PM	#963
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by OCaptain Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament Well, since the topic of the thread is the new testament . . . have you read the thread at all?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029

23rd January 2012, 06:37 PM	#964
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by Resume Well, since the topic of the thread is the new testament . . . have you read the thread at all? How much buys me more civility than Oliver? I've only made about halfway through. What do I win?
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

23rd January 2012, 06:40 PM	#965
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,497	Originally Posted by OCaptain Thanks for the surprising candor and welcoming spirit. Would you recommend a good thread where I can find the kind of civil, intellectual discussion I am seeking? I would also suggest checking forum rules. The biggest complaint everyone has here (and it is understandable) is that you are not discussing the thread topic. This is called "derailing" and is typically frowned upon. Mainly becuase it distracts from the OP (original post) topic. More practically to you, is that other forumites who may be interested in your discussion wouldn't see it as most typically avoid this thread. (Note this thread is the oblivion plane of the forum. Only spoken of by others in hushed tones of sadness and despair) If you are interested in a civil discussion, I recommend starting a thread of your own in Religion and Philosophy on the topic of your choice. If you start a thread with a cordial and open demeanor, you will most likely receive that in kind(exceptions do exist, you are free to place these people on ignore). If you start one with a challenge or derision, you will only get what you give.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

23rd January 2012, 06:40 PM	#966
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by OCaptain How much buys me more civility than Oliver? I've only made about halfway through. What do I win? A buck three-eighty answers both your questions. ETA: joobz is offering very good advice.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Last edited by Resume; 23rd January 2012 at 06:42 PM.

23rd January 2012, 06:57 PM	#967
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,680	Originally Posted by OCaptain Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. Nobody is suggesting that it is, but since it's a belief in these sorts of things - particularly the resurrection - on which Christianity is founded then they are of somewhat more significance than trivial stuff like a few place names or whether the bloody Colossians were backsliding into the worship of elemental spirits. Originally Posted by OCaptain What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament ( which you'll find out if you look at pages 6, 10, and 11 of my post history. The normal day-to-day life of the times, events, people and stuff. Fine, start a thread about it. This thread is about the New Testament and these aren't the Hebrews you're looking for. Originally Posted by OCaptain Boring compared to what you seem to be looking for. We're looking for some evidence to back up the OP's claim that he knows the New Testament writers told the truth and it's been anything but boring, as you'd know if you'd bothered to acquaint yourself with the thread.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum Last edited by Akhenaten; 23rd January 2012 at 06:59 PM.

23rd January 2012, 07:00 PM	#968
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

23rd January 2012, 07:20 PM	#969
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,680	Originally Posted by OCaptain Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Yeah, good, You've only got 519 pages and 20,729 posts to go before you're all caught up. Originally Posted by OCaptain Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated. Originally Posted by Resume Originally Posted by OCaptain What do you think of redaction criticism? I ask because I was reading a recent exchange on the biblical studies yahoo listserve in which both redaction criticism and Q were roundly ridiculed by a good number of the scholars on-hand. I like the way the highlighted words work together. You'll live.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

23rd January 2012, 07:27 PM	#970
joobz Tergiversator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's how you get ants Posts: 17,497	Originally Posted by OCaptain Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated. I remember now. Interestingly, I gave similar advice last time as well. I also remember reading many fun exchanges between you and Piggy and others. It unfortunately died.
	__________________ What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser

23rd January 2012, 07:39 PM	#971
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Yeah, good, You've only got 519 pages and 20,729 posts to go before you're all caught up. You'll live. And Welshdean's response to me (post #603) Where he confuses me with a Fundie, and suggests that "Fundies have no place in the 21st century, and the sooner this world is free of them, the sooner we can all enjoy a true 'enlightenment'". That even fits Dafydd's definition of hate (wishing harm or death to others). Jeez, what more do you want? The irony is lost on most of you. We've had almost this same damn conversation last year, with the same people saying the same thing. (and even then, joobz was the voice of reason -way to go, joobz).
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Last edited by OCaptain; 23rd January 2012 at 07:41 PM.

23rd January 2012, 08:19 PM	#972
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain That's your stomp? That's the most polite stomp I have received since arriving at JREF. If you hadn't told me, I would have missed it! Thanks. I've only encountered you today. It took me one post to get the measure of you. You're pretty interchangable with others of your type. When you leave, another will take you place. So it goes.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2012, 08:22 PM	#973
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain Yes, but I'm not DOC. Why can't you guys give everyone the benefit of the doubt and allow each to demonstrate who he/she is? As I said, you're all pretty interchangable - different names, same arrogant ignorance. You, DOC - it really doesn't matter.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2012, 08:24 PM	#974
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain I am not a troll. Yes, you are. You are a Troll for Jesus.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2012, 08:27 PM	#975
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain Thanks for the surprising candor and welcoming spirit. Would you recommend a good thread where I can find the kind of civil, intellectual discussion I am seeking? Answers In Genesis. (seems to be about your speed)
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2012, 08:30 PM	#976
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated. I suspect he was adapting his response to best suit his respondee.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2012, 08:32 PM	#977
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain And Welshdean's response to me (post #603) Where he confuses me with a Fundie, and suggests that "Fundies have no place in the 21st century, and the sooner this world is free of them, the sooner we can all enjoy a true 'enlightenment'". If you don't want to be confused with a fundie, don't write with the ignorance and inanity of one.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2012, 08:34 PM	#978
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by Complexity I suspect he was adapting his response to best suit his respondee. And somehow, I'm not shocked to learn your suspicion is wrong. It's not my fault you can't be bothered. That's your baggage. Whatever.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

23rd January 2012, 08:39 PM	#979
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by OCaptain And somehow, I'm not shocked to learn your suspicion is wrong. It's not my fault you can't be bothered. That's your baggage. Whatever. Bothered? To do what? Invest time and energy in this interaction? Been there, done that. You're all the same. What I enjoy are discussions with intelligent people on interesting topics. Those discussions ~~rarely~~ never happen in threads like this one. (there are some intelligent people posting in this thread, but the topic sucks)
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell Last edited by Complexity; 23rd January 2012 at 08:40 PM.

23rd January 2012, 10:34 PM	#980
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by OCaptain And what is my paradigm? And, I chose my words because the perspectives among some at JREF when it comes to anything with regard to the Ancient Near East (specifically where it touches upon the bible) is quite unique in its aggressiveness. I'd seen and experienced skepticism in the past, of course, but some take it to a different level of near-hatred here. My observations, of course. Why do you feel it necessary to inject emotion into the argument? How do you know the emotions of the other posters?

23rd January 2012, 10:45 PM	#981
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by SezMe Remember, Ethnikos, that this thread is about Jesus' existence. Your above statement is about as tight a circular reasoning as one could imagine. Originally Posted by Greedo I don't know if he existed, nor do I care, nor do I think it would make a difference. Even if proven to have existed, he'd be nothing more than a fraud, and if not that, a nutjob with delusions. People can be convinced of almost anything today, think back 2000 years ago when people were even more superstitious. Originally Posted by Hugo I'm actually interested in what this thread will bring up too All the arguments I've heard for an actual person being the source of the stories (Josephus, Tacitus, ...) are either controversial and disputed with as much vigor as they are proposed. I'm inclined to think there is no actual evidence (and it is not possible) so I'll say probably didn't exist, and doesn't matter for the miracle claims anyway. Originally Posted by OCaptain I find many of the posts by atheists in this thread (and not just the ones directed at me) quite hateful in spirit. Civility long ago stripped away leaving mocking, derisions and ultimatums. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=215446 The quotes are from that thread. Please point out the hate.

23rd January 2012, 10:49 PM	#982
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by OCaptain How do you expect this conversation to go from here on? I am not here to provide a target at which to snipe and better about yourself. I am not a troll. I suppose I am more used to civil discourse, even among people who are theists and atheists. Was hoping to find that here. You find here what you bring here.

23rd January 2012, 10:54 PM	#983
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by OCaptain Well, it's certainly not ALL they wrote of. I'd be surprised if it was predominantly about miracles. What is fascinating for me is the historicity of the texts, primarily Old Testament ( which you'll find out if you look at pages 6, 10, and 11 of my post history. The normal day-to-day life of the times, events, people and stuff. Boring compared to what you seem to be looking for. You haven't read the NT?

23rd January 2012, 11:53 PM	#984
amb Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Western Australia Posts: 21,408	Yawn!

24th January 2012, 03:14 AM	#985
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,480	Double yawn. Are Doc and OCaptain related?
	__________________ Yesterday upon the stairs I met a man who wasn't there He wasn't there again today I wish that he would go away.

24th January 2012, 04:51 AM	#986
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by OCaptain Thank you, although I have to wonder how many of you read the posts that don't fit in pigeonholes, as I've been in this thread off and on since page 15, post 576. Resume's dismissive reply to me then (#578) was uneducated. I don't think you understood it. The way you don't seem to understand the thread topic. Now, do you possess some evidence in regard to the veracity of the new testament?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029

24th January 2012, 05:22 AM	#987
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...) Posts: 4,082	Originally Posted by OCaptain Yes, but I'm not DOC. Why can't you guys give everyone the benefit of the doubt and allow each to demonstrate who he/she is? I never said or implied you were DOC. If you'll recall, I was replying to DOC and asking him why he thought the comparison he was making was valid. In short, I did exactly what you are demanding here,, and allowed DOC to demonstrate who he is (a xenophobe). I made no comment on anyone else. If you choose to feel that I was applying my comments to you, or even theists in general, that's your prerogative. It's wrong, and the content of my posts shows that, but you may feel broad-brushed if you want to.
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis

24th January 2012, 06:41 AM	#988
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,127	Originally Posted by OCaptain When you ask someone, in essence, "who are you to speak?", that is nothing but a challenge. When you make an unsupported argument from authority here, expect it to be challenged.

24th January 2012, 07:08 AM	#989
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by tsig You haven't read the NT? Stop it. I have read it. I can't believe basics like that for a thread like this aren't assumed. I can do an analysis of it to see the verse count for prosaic. Vs miraculous subjects, but why should I do your work for you? You've got this thread soooo well in hand.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

24th January 2012, 07:10 AM	#990
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by catsmate1 When you make an unsupported argument from authority here, expect it to be challenged. Oh, do tell? Which one did I make? Oh, and by the by, that's called making an appeal TO authority. So, for example, if I said "Steve Jobs is an expert on blue, and he said "blue is the best color of all". That's how I know blue is the best color". See, the reason that's a fallacy is because Steve Jobs is NOT an expert on blue. If you'd read his biography, you'd know that.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Last edited by OCaptain; 24th January 2012 at 08:00 AM.

24th January 2012, 07:17 AM	#991
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by Resume I don't think you understood it. The way you don't seem to understand the thread topic. Now, do you possess some evidence in regard to the veracity of the new testament? You didn't read your own post or there is no way you could have said that with a straight face. Come on. You played with the fricking highlight tool in an uneducated attempt to make fun of something you didn't understand (and still don't understand) - an email list serve hosted by Yahoo where scholars in fields related to biblical research come to discuss publications, studies, questions, issues, etc. That doesn't speak well for your ability and willingness to fill in blanks in your knowledge. To me, that is the biggest disappointment of all for me in my exchanges with you.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

24th January 2012, 07:29 AM	#992
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by OCaptain To me, that is the biggest disappointment of all for me in my exchanges with you. Didn't realize you had any expectations. Now, as to the thread topic once again, do you possess evidence for it?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029

24th January 2012, 07:32 AM	#993
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by OCaptain That doesn't speak well for your ability and willingness to fill in blanks in your knowledge. I fill the blanks in my knowledge just fine thanks. Every day as a matter of fact, where I deem necessary. I have some self-irony in regard to what I know, and what I need to know. So, will you be presenting evidence as to the thread topic?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029

24th January 2012, 08:06 AM	#994
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917	Originally Posted by Resume I fill the blanks in my knowledge just fine thanks. Every day as a matter of fact, where I deem necessary. I have some self-irony in regard to what I know, and what I need to know. So, will you be presenting evidence as to the thread topic? Oh, how ironic. For all the accusations of not reading the thread I have gotten in the past 12 hours, if you'd read just MY posts, you'd see I already answered this question. Not doing it again just for you. Please check and get back to me.
OCaptain Muse Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 917

24th January 2012, 08:15 AM	#995
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029	Originally Posted by OCaptain Oh, how ironic. For all the accusations of not reading the thread I have gotten in the past 12 hours, if you'd read just MY posts, you'd see I already answered this question. Not doing it again just for you. Please check and get back to me. One of the assertions in DOC's original, #1 post was that the new testament writers gave evidence for miracles. Whether or not you're interested in miracles is off topic. Do you have any evidence for the new testament writers telling the truth about miracles? Thanks.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,029