There are truly no atheists in foxholes

TFian · 8th July 2011, 08:58 PM

As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,

Originally Posted by John Michael Greer

As the saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes, and there tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations — a lack of interest in spirituality is a luxury mostly found in times of prosperity and social stability. The inner resources provided by an active spiritual life are among the resources I’d encourage people to have on hand in advance of the next wave of crises.

Source

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

Resume · 8th July 2011, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,

Source

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

No. Yes. No.

Foster Zygote · 8th July 2011, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,

Source

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

Reality, or opinion?

TFian · 8th July 2011, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Reality, or opinion?

Reality, given the facts.

Foster Zygote · 8th July 2011, 09:03 PM

"...There tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..."

The irony being that this statement can be interpreted as a claim that collapsing civilizations are overrun with spirituality.

Resume · 8th July 2011, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

Reality, given the facts.

What facts, where?

Garrette · 8th July 2011, 09:05 PM

1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them.

2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum.

3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time.

It's nonsense.

Foster Zygote · 8th July 2011, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

Reality, given the facts.

What facts?

Lowpro · 8th July 2011, 09:06 PM

Oh I see, religion only prospers when people suffer hardship.

No wonder religion fundies try to make the world harder, they're trying to expand their message!

Mudcat · 8th July 2011, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

What facts?

The facts absent from the OP maybe?

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 09:09 PM

First off, thanks TFian for the link, it confirmed exactly what I told you earlier about Greer which you seemed to deny.

Second off, Greer does have a point probably, there is a correlation between abandonment of religiosity (even if not abandonment of religion itself) and prosperity. It's why the domestic missionaries often pick the homeless and other disadvantaged, they're far more likely to accept false hope (and some material bribery in the form of "charity") than non religious or otherwise other religion affiliated middle class or otherwise successful folk. However, I have to really question his moral basis given it's quite clear he seems to hold this notion with glee, as if a return to religiosity will be profoundly great for our society...

TFian · 8th July 2011, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Garrette

1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them.

For which claims?

Originally Posted by Garrette

2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum.

Oh? How so?

Originally Posted by Garrette

3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time.

It's nonsense.

We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s...

Kopji · 8th July 2011, 09:15 PM

Wow. I find his reasoning wrong on many levels. Hard to choose.
Instead of investing in science and clear thinking that might result in new solutions and better quality of living - we are instead to invest in failed ideas that result in cycles of failure. But with spirituality we will be happy with less.

GO YE AND FAIL! the prophet calls to the wilderness

TraneWreck · 8th July 2011, 09:15 PM

"...there tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..."

That's what we've been saying. The more of us there are, the less likely that society is going to collapse.

TraneWreck · 8th July 2011, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

Oh? How so?

In the sense that he is an atheist who has actually been in a foxhole. Pretty tricky language.

There's a whole thread about it:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=212435

Mudcat · 8th July 2011, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn

First off, thanks TFian for the link, it confirmed exactly what I told you earlier about Greer which you seemed to deny.

What else can you expect from someone who butchers Shakespeare in their signature?

Quote:

Snip rest of the post, which I happen to agree with

I think it's no accident that tobacco companies happen to target the same groups of people as religious institutes do (the uneducated, the homeless, the desperate, etc).

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

What else can you expect from someone who butchers Shakespeare in their signature?

Good point...

Originally Posted by Mudcat

I think it's no accident that tobacco companies happen to target the same groups of people as religious groups (the uneducated, the homeless, the desperate, etc).

It's all about taking advantage of the weak and powerless. Religions have had that game mastered for millennia. Me thinks Greer think his "nature spirituality" will become quite the fad once his worldview of a collapse of industrial civilization happens. Pretty telling.

Robin · 8th July 2011, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

Reality, given the facts.

What facts? All we have is a claim by some guy.

Do you think it is true just because he says so?

ynot · 8th July 2011, 09:37 PM

If foxholes turn all Atheists in to Theists why don't Theists make foxholes instead of churches to convert Atheists?

bozman · 8th July 2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

http://www.militaryatheists.org/expaif.html

http://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes/

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...atheists-foxho

There are some atheists in foxholes right there.

Robin · 8th July 2011, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

Oh? How so?

Hmm.. fol-de-rol methinks.

Mudcat · 8th July 2011, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn

It's all about taking advantage of the weak and powerless.

Indeed, and it's quite stomach churning if you ask me.

Quote:

Religions have had that game mastered for millennia. Me thinks Greer think his "nature spirituality" will become quite the fad once his worldview of a collapse of industrial civilization happens.

If it were to happen that way it would be another religious war as all the religions turn on each other, fight each other for new members, forcibly convert all they can of their competitors and wipe out the rest.

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

If it were to happen that way it would be another religious war as all the religions turn on each other, fight each other for new members, forcibly convert all they can of their competitors and wipe out the rest.

That's what makes me laugh. This hypothetical "return" to spirituality won't be the liberal tolerant society that we've grown accustomed to in the West. It's not going to be some interfaith society where differences of religion, race, nationality, sexuality, gender, etc. are respected. It's one of inter religious warfare, with the winner throwing the loser religions and demonized minorities into the funerary pyres, quite literally.

Garrette · 8th July 2011, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

For which claims?

Any of them.

Originally Posted by Tfian

Oh? How so?

Both literally and metaphorically. Greer uses it merely as a metaphor, so you can't legitimately complain that I do so, too. I'm atheist. I've been in combat. I didn't pray or even begin to be tempted to believe in a deity. There are many others in the same vein here.

Originally Posted by Tfian

We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s...

Put your goalposts back, please. Greer wasn't referencing peak US production.

bozman · 8th July 2011, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn

That's what makes me laugh. This hypothetical "return" to spirituality won't be the liberal tolerant society that we've grown accustomed to in the West. It's not going to be some interfaith society where differences of religion, race, nationality, sexuality, gender, etc. are respected. It's one of inter religious warfare, with the winner throwing the loser religions and demonized minorities into the funerary pyres, quite literally.

No, they would never do that. Those were, uhhh, other religions and churches.

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by bozman

No, they would never do that. Those were, uhhh, other religions and churches.

They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.

Mudcat · 8th July 2011, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn

They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.

I think he forgot to put the sarcasm tags on his post JadeStone.

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

I think he forgot to put the sarcasm tags on his post JadeStone.

Oh, my bad!

Skeptic Ginger · 8th July 2011, 09:55 PM

Oh my word! Given this reality?

fuelair · 8th July 2011, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by TFian

As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says,

Source

Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?

Druids are just as full of crap as any other religion. Doesn't mean I hate or even dislike them, but their opinions on certain areas of science and on political situations do not tend to influence me. Also, you do, I hope, realize that this person is saying that we should all fake believing in ancient, mostly harmful gods because times are tough (I hope you don't think he is saying anything supportive of the one the US mostly gets all hot and bothered about).

bozman · 8th July 2011, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn

They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.

Yeah, you're right. I was just giving the typical fundie response to the statement.

Sorry, I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always convey through the internet.

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 10:10 PM

Also, I find the dichotomy Greer is creating between Atheism and Spirituality frivolous. Spirituality is a vague term, and it's not likely his definition is an exclusive one.

Sam Harris, (in)famous atheist author, proclaims to be quite "spiritual" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Har...9#Spirituality

Mudcat · 8th July 2011, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by bozman

Yeah, you're right. I was just giving the typical fundie response to the statement.

Sorry, I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always convey through the internet.

That's what the

tag is for

bozman · 8th July 2011, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mudcat

That's what the

tag is for

A sarcasm... tag?

Craig4 · 8th July 2011, 10:32 PM

The OP in incorrect. I am an atheist and I have served in combat to include taking fire. I have never prayed nor have I questioned my atheism.

bozman · 8th July 2011, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

The OP in incorrect. I am an atheist and I have served in combat to include taking fire. I have never prayed nor have I questioned my atheism.

Funny, according to the OP, you cannot possibly exist.

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by bozman

Funny, according to the OP, you cannot possibly exist.

To be fair, I don't think the OP is literally saying there are no atheists in the military. It's much more metaphorical than literal.

Craig4 · 8th July 2011, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by bozman

Funny, according to the OP, you cannot possibly exist.

I pinched myself and it hurt. Does that count as existing?

bozman · 8th July 2011, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I pinched myself and it hurt. Does that count as existing?

Hmm. Well, you never can be too sure. Better do it a few more times.

JadeStonesFromSaturn · 8th July 2011, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I pinched myself and it hurt. Does that count as existing?

Or you could use a more esoteric test "I hate? Therefore I am!

8th July 2011, 08:58 PM	#1
TFian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,226	There are truly no atheists in foxholes As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says, Originally Posted by John Michael Greer As the saying goes, there are no atheists in foxholes, and there tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations — a lack of interest in spirituality is a luxury mostly found in times of prosperity and social stability. The inner resources provided by an active spiritual life are among the resources I’d encourage people to have on hand in advance of the next wave of crises. Source Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead?
TFian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,226	__________________ What a piece of **** is man, in form and moving, how like a filthy vermin. How like a disgusting bacterium is he. Playing out the grotesque misery of his life, in this world of ours, which is not but a cesspool.

8th July 2011, 09:01 PM	#2
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by TFian As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says, Source Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead? No. Yes. No.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,012

8th July 2011, 09:02 PM	#3
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,382	Originally Posted by TFian As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says, Source Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead? Reality, or opinion?
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

8th July 2011, 09:02 PM	#4
TFian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,226	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote Reality, or opinion? Reality, given the facts.
TFian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,226	__________________ What a piece of **** is man, in form and moving, how like a filthy vermin. How like a disgusting bacterium is he. Playing out the grotesque misery of his life, in this world of ours, which is not but a cesspool.

8th July 2011, 09:03 PM	#5
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,382	"...There tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..." The irony being that this statement can be interpreted as a claim that collapsing civilizations are overrun with spirituality.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

8th July 2011, 09:04 PM	#6
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,012	Originally Posted by TFian Reality, given the facts. What facts, where?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,012

8th July 2011, 09:05 PM	#7
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,540	1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them. 2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum. 3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time. It's nonsense.
	__________________ My kids still love me.

8th July 2011, 09:06 PM	#8
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,382	Originally Posted by TFian Reality, given the facts. What facts?
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

8th July 2011, 09:06 PM	#9
Lowpro Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 4,517	Oh I see, religion only prospers when people suffer hardship. No wonder religion fundies try to make the world harder, they're trying to expand their message!
	__________________ "If I actually believed that Jesus was coming to end the world in 2050, I'd be preparing by stocking up on timber and nails" - PZ Myers

8th July 2011, 09:07 PM	#10
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,679	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote What facts? The facts absent from the OP maybe?
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

8th July 2011, 09:09 PM	#11
JadeStonesFromSaturn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 198	First off, thanks TFian for the link, it confirmed exactly what I told you earlier about Greer which you seemed to deny. Second off, Greer does have a point probably, there is a correlation between abandonment of religiosity (even if not abandonment of religion itself) and prosperity. It's why the domestic missionaries often pick the homeless and other disadvantaged, they're far more likely to accept false hope (and some material bribery in the form of "charity") than non religious or otherwise other religion affiliated middle class or otherwise successful folk. However, I have to really question his moral basis given it's quite clear he seems to hold this notion with glee, as if a return to religiosity will be profoundly great for our society...

8th July 2011, 09:10 PM	#12
TFian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,226	Originally Posted by Garrette 1. What are Greer's sources for his claims? I dispute them. For which claims? Originally Posted by Garrette 2. There are many atheists in foxholes, myself included as well as many others on this very forum. Oh? How so? Originally Posted by Garrette 3. I read your link and find much that is without merit in it, not least of which is the old chestnut of peak oil. Experts and doomsayers have been saying we have either reached or are about to reach in a few years the peak production of oil. What makes Greer right this time. It's nonsense. We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s...
TFian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,226	__________________ What a piece of **** is man, in form and moving, how like a filthy vermin. How like a disgusting bacterium is he. Playing out the grotesque misery of his life, in this world of ours, which is not but a cesspool.

8th July 2011, 09:15 PM	#13
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	Wow. I find his reasoning wrong on many levels. Hard to choose. Instead of investing in science and clear thinking that might result in new solutions and better quality of living - we are instead to invest in failed ideas that result in cycles of failure. But with spirituality we will be happy with less. GO YE AND FAIL! the prophet calls to the wilderness

8th July 2011, 09:15 PM	#14
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	"...there tend to be very few atheists in collapsing civilizations..." That's what we've been saying. The more of us there are, the less likely that society is going to collapse.

8th July 2011, 09:17 PM	#15
TraneWreck Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Chicago Posts: 6,414	Originally Posted by TFian Oh? How so? In the sense that he is an atheist who has actually been in a foxhole. Pretty tricky language. There's a whole thread about it: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=212435

8th July 2011, 09:20 PM	#16
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,679	Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn First off, thanks TFian for the link, it confirmed exactly what I told you earlier about Greer which you seemed to deny. What else can you expect from someone who butchers Shakespeare in their signature? Quote: Snip rest of the post, which I happen to agree with I think it's no accident that tobacco companies happen to target the same groups of people as religious institutes do (the uneducated, the homeless, the desperate, etc).
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 8th July 2011 at 09:23 PM.

8th July 2011, 09:24 PM	#17
JadeStonesFromSaturn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 198	Originally Posted by Mudcat What else can you expect from someone who butchers Shakespeare in their signature? Good point... Originally Posted by Mudcat I think it's no accident that tobacco companies happen to target the same groups of people as religious groups (the uneducated, the homeless, the desperate, etc). It's all about taking advantage of the weak and powerless. Religions have had that game mastered for millennia. Me thinks Greer think his "nature spirituality" will become quite the fad once his worldview of a collapse of industrial civilization happens. Pretty telling.

8th July 2011, 09:34 PM	#18
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by TFian Reality, given the facts. What facts? All we have is a claim by some guy. Do you think it is true just because he says so?
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

8th July 2011, 09:37 PM	#19
ynot Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 4,640	If foxholes turn all Atheists in to Theists why don't Theists make foxholes instead of churches to convert Atheists?
	__________________ Rumours of a god’s existence have been greatly exaggerated. My post are all (IMO) unless stated otherwise.

8th July 2011, 09:37 PM	#20
bozman Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sacramento, Ca Posts: 505	Quote: http://www.militaryatheists.org/expaif.html http://ffrf.org/outreach/atheists-in-foxholes/ http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...atheists-foxho There are some atheists in foxholes right there.

8th July 2011, 09:38 PM	#21
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by TFian Oh? How so? Hmm.. fol-de-rol methinks.
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

8th July 2011, 09:40 PM	#22
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,679	Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn It's all about taking advantage of the weak and powerless. Indeed, and it's quite stomach churning if you ask me. Quote: Religions have had that game mastered for millennia. Me thinks Greer think his "nature spirituality" will become quite the fad once his worldview of a collapse of industrial civilization happens. If it were to happen that way it would be another religious war as all the religions turn on each other, fight each other for new members, forcibly convert all they can of their competitors and wipe out the rest.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

8th July 2011, 09:44 PM	#23
JadeStonesFromSaturn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 198	Originally Posted by Mudcat If it were to happen that way it would be another religious war as all the religions turn on each other, fight each other for new members, forcibly convert all they can of their competitors and wipe out the rest. That's what makes me laugh. This hypothetical "return" to spirituality won't be the liberal tolerant society that we've grown accustomed to in the West. It's not going to be some interfaith society where differences of religion, race, nationality, sexuality, gender, etc. are respected. It's one of inter religious warfare, with the winner throwing the loser religions and demonized minorities into the funerary pyres, quite literally.

8th July 2011, 09:46 PM	#24
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,540	Originally Posted by TFian For which claims? Any of them. Originally Posted by Tfian Oh? How so? Both literally and metaphorically. Greer uses it merely as a metaphor, so you can't legitimately complain that I do so, too. I'm atheist. I've been in combat. I didn't pray or even begin to be tempted to believe in a deity. There are many others in the same vein here. Originally Posted by Tfian We've reached the peak in petroleum production in the US back in the 70s... Put your goalposts back, please. Greer wasn't referencing peak US production.
	__________________ My kids still love me.

8th July 2011, 09:47 PM	#25
bozman Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sacramento, Ca Posts: 505	Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn That's what makes me laugh. This hypothetical "return" to spirituality won't be the liberal tolerant society that we've grown accustomed to in the West. It's not going to be some interfaith society where differences of religion, race, nationality, sexuality, gender, etc. are respected. It's one of inter religious warfare, with the winner throwing the loser religions and demonized minorities into the funerary pyres, quite literally. No, they would never do that. Those were, uhhh, other religions and churches.

8th July 2011, 09:52 PM	#26
JadeStonesFromSaturn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 198	Originally Posted by bozman No, they would never do that. Those were, uhhh, other religions and churches. They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism.

8th July 2011, 09:54 PM	#27
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,679	Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism. I think he forgot to put the sarcasm tags on his post JadeStone.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

8th July 2011, 09:55 PM	#28
JadeStonesFromSaturn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 198	Originally Posted by Mudcat I think he forgot to put the sarcasm tags on his post JadeStone. Oh, my bad!

8th July 2011, 09:55 PM	#29
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,503	Oh my word! Given this reality?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

8th July 2011, 09:58 PM	#30
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	Originally Posted by TFian As the Grand Archdruid of the Ancient Order of Druids in America, John Michael Greer says, Source Given this piece of reality, can atheism truly be societal productive, and if not, should we not discourage it's proliferation and encourage a return to spirituality instead? Druids are just as full of crap as any other religion. Doesn't mean I hate or even dislike them, but their opinions on certain areas of science and on political situations do not tend to influence me. Also, you do, I hope, realize that this person is saying that we should all fake believing in ancient, mostly harmful gods because times are tough (I hope you don't think he is saying anything supportive of the one the US mostly gets all hot and bothered about).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,881	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

8th July 2011, 10:00 PM	#31
bozman Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sacramento, Ca Posts: 505	Originally Posted by JadeStonesFromSaturn They all do it though. Even what many consider to be "peaceful" religions have some history of doing so, such as Buddhism. Yeah, you're right. I was just giving the typical fundie response to the statement. Sorry, I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always convey through the internet.

8th July 2011, 10:10 PM	#32
JadeStonesFromSaturn Thinker Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 198	Also, I find the dichotomy Greer is creating between Atheism and Spirituality frivolous. Spirituality is a vague term, and it's not likely his definition is an exclusive one. Sam Harris, (in)famous atheist author, proclaims to be quite "spiritual" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Har...9#Spirituality

8th July 2011, 10:17 PM	#33
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,679	Originally Posted by bozman Yeah, you're right. I was just giving the typical fundie response to the statement. Sorry, I sometimes forget that sarcasm doesn't always convey through the internet. That's what the tag is for
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven.

8th July 2011, 10:28 PM	#34
bozman Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sacramento, Ca Posts: 505	Originally Posted by Mudcat That's what the tag is for A sarcasm... tag?

8th July 2011, 10:32 PM	#35
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363	The OP in incorrect. I am an atheist and I have served in combat to include taking fire. I have never prayed nor have I questioned my atheism.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,363