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Tags Dave Asprey , earthing mats

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Old 16th July 2011, 01:34 AM   #1
vladimir
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Question Can grounding/earthing mats improve sleep or health?

A rather respected fellow, Dave Asprey, software security specialist and Vice President of Cloud Security at Trend Micro (look up his LinkedIn, as I can't post links yet), says he had used the Zeo sleep monitor (a rather proven piece of technology) to see if sleeping on an "Earthing mat" improves sleep. And, it did improve his REM sleep, he says.

The page of the Earthing Mat he sells (Google "earthing mat dave asprey") mentions other health benefits of sleeping on an electrically grounded pad:
Quote:
Your own earthing mat can help:

* Dissipate inflammation
* Reduce pain throughout the body
* Improve sleep (we've proven this is true with Zeo scores!)
* Increase energy levels throughout the day
* Reduce the stress response and bring about peace of mind
* Eliminate jet lag by immediately normalizing circadian rhythms to your new locale
* Improve blood pressure and release tension
* Disburse ambient electromagnetic fields (EMFs) from the electronic devices around you
* Accelerate recovery from injury or sports
What do fellow skeptics think about this product? My radar goes "quack", but I'm looking for more informed opinions or rebuttals.

Last edited by vladimir; 16th July 2011 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 16th July 2011, 02:16 AM   #2
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I suggest a good book on electricity basics - especially as to where and when currents can/do flow and what grounding is, entails, how it's done. Also one on old school electicity and magnetic scams re: health improvement, enhancement of male prowess (if you know what I mean and I think you do) and the remedy for female problems.
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Old 16th July 2011, 02:26 AM   #3
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This kind of reminds me of the craze a few years back of putting 'earthing strips' on the back of cars to avoid car sickness.
Another case of someone stepping outside of their field of expertise.
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Old 16th July 2011, 03:46 AM   #4
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Can't I just wrap a piece of copper wire around my toe and clamp it to the cold-water inlet?
Works for the cable company....
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Old 16th July 2011, 04:35 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by vladimir View Post
And, it did improve his REM sleep, he says.
So when is he doing those double-blind tests to eliminate the placebo effect?

It occurs to me that he's missing a great marketing angle. He should say:

Primitive man slept touching the ground, but we now sleep in wooden beds on wooden floors, which prevents our current from reaching the earth at night. This unnatural way of sleeping causes...

The people who are into natural=good and artificial=bad would love it.

Originally Posted by Bikewer
Can't I just wrap a piece of copper wire around my toe and clamp it to the cold-water inlet?
That should do the job.

Wait, I just read the spiel on the guy's page, and he says: "The earth's natural electrons flow right up through the ground wire and onto the mat, even if you're in a high rise."

I don't know much about electricity, but is that right? I thought that ground wires were to drain electricity out of things into the earth, instead of through a less comfortable path like your body if you accidentally touched a hot wire.

If you do Bikewer's thing, which way, if any, would electrons be flowing in that wire? (Assuming that lightning isn't striking the ground nearby.)
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Old 16th July 2011, 06:24 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
So when is he doing those double-blind tests to eliminate the placebo effect?

It occurs to me that he's missing a great marketing angle. He should say:

Primitive man slept touching the ground, but we now sleep in wooden beds on wooden floors, which prevents our current from reaching the earth at night. This unnatural way of sleeping causes...

The people who are into natural=good and artificial=bad would love it.



That should do the job.

Wait, I just read the spiel on the guy's page, and he says: "The earth's natural electrons flow right up through the ground wire and onto the mat, even if you're in a high rise."

I don't know much about electricity, but is that right? I thought that ground wires were to drain electricity out of things into the earth, instead of through a less comfortable path like your body if you accidentally touched a hot wire.

If you do Bikewer's thing, which way, if any, would electrons be flowing in that wire? (Assuming that lightning isn't striking the ground nearby.)
Electrons flow against the commonly believed direction. It's easier to visualize current flowing with signal direction than against, so that's how it's most often presented. But, really, the way current works is by electrons flowing from - to + (- being earth ground). Remember, positive attracts negatively charged electrons. Each time an electron moves one atom closer to the body, a hole opens up where it was (which is the signal path), allowing the next electron in line to shift that direction.
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Old 16th July 2011, 06:36 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
Electrons flow against the commonly believed direction. It's easier to visualize current flowing with signal direction than against, so that's how it's most often presented. But, really, the way current works is by electrons flowing from - to + (- being earth ground). Remember, positive attracts negatively charged electrons. Each time an electron moves one atom closer to the body, a hole opens up where it was (which is the signal path), allowing the next electron in line to shift that direction.
I did not know that. So you mean that when you touch an electric fence, for example, and complete the circuit to the ground, the electrons flow from the ground up into you and then into the hot fence wire, rather than from the fence through you to the ground? Learned something new.

Okay, then the next question: what circuit is being completed by grounding a human being who's not touching any power source? Why would the electrons flow into him or her?
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Old 16th July 2011, 06:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
I did not know that. So you mean that when you touch an electric fence, for example, and complete the circuit to the ground, the electrons flow from the ground up into you and then into the hot fence wire, rather than from the fence through you to the ground? Learned something new.

Okay, then the next question: what circuit is being completed by grounding a human being who's not touching any power source? Why would the electrons flow into him or her?
Because your body is full of positive (and negative) ions. Flowing electrons into your body is supposed to neutralize that positive charge.

Think of when you shuffle your feet on the carpet and touch a door knob. There's a charge that your body can build up and grounding to earth allows that charge to be neutralized. That's the basic theory behind it, anyway. Not sure it's totally true. But that's the theory...Whether that allows you to sleep better or not is a different story.
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Old 16th July 2011, 07:04 AM   #9
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How would this be done on the space station?
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Old 16th July 2011, 07:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
How would this be done on the space station?
Ground yourself to the negative pole of the battery pack. And hope to whatever deity you believe in that you don't touch anything attached to the positive pole of the battery pack?
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Old 16th July 2011, 08:42 AM   #11
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Fraud, scam, targeting the omnipresent swarms of woo.
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Old 16th July 2011, 09:56 AM   #12
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Isn't the monitor the guy uses grounded? If so, and it's attached to the person, then the person is also grounded just by using the monitor. What a silly thing.

He wouldn't be the first guy to sell some of his respectability for a quick buck.
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Old 16th July 2011, 10:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
Electrons flow against the commonly believed direction.
Electron flow has been understood for over a century. Are you referring to layman belief?

Quote:
It's easier to visualize current flowing with signal direction than against, so that's how it's most often presented.
What signal are you talking about?

Quote:
But, really, the way current works is by electrons flowing from - to + (- being earth ground).
No, that is not correct. Earth, or ground if you prefer, is neutral.
Touching a negative potential with respect to ground will have just as much an effect as touching the same positive voltage.

V.
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Old 16th July 2011, 10:32 AM   #14
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vladimir - Are you spamming this product? I haven't been able to decide yet, but my first impression was that you were and I'm still getting that vibe.

You are brand new on the forum, this is what you decided to start posting about, you provide google search keywords and info on how to find the product, puff up the person behind it, and coyly identify yourself as a skeptic who is 'just wondering'.

It will be interesting to see how this develops.
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Old 16th July 2011, 10:33 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
Electrons flow against the commonly believed direction. It's easier to visualize current flowing with signal direction than against, so that's how it's most often presented. But, really, the way current works is by electrons flowing from - to + (- being earth ground). Remember, positive attracts negatively charged electrons. Each time an electron moves one atom closer to the body, a hole opens up where it was (which is the signal path), allowing the next electron in line to shift that direction.
I think pup's correct.

The notation (+/-) is incorrect - the positively labeled carries the negative electron charge. So, electron movement is toward the negative ground.

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey
Because your body is full of positive (and negative) ions. Flowing electrons into your body is supposed to neutralize that positive charge.

Think of when you shuffle your feet on the carpet and touch a door knob. There's a charge that your body can build up and grounding to earth allows that charge to be neutralized. That's the basic theory behind it, anyway. Not sure it's totally true. But that's the theory...Whether that allows you to sleep better or not is a different story.
In this case, you pick up electrons, and they are discharged when you connect to ground.


That's my understanding, anyway, from having done some electrophysiology experiments in grad school.

Otherwise,
Originally Posted by pup
I did not know that. So you mean that when you touch an electric fence, for example, and complete the circuit to the ground, the electrons flow from the ground up into you and then into the hot fence wire, rather than from the fence through you to the ground? Learned something new.
doesn't make sense to me.

The electric fences we used on the farm were powered by regular car batteries, which store electrons. When you touch the fence, electrons flow from the battery to ground.

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Old 16th July 2011, 10:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
I did not know that. So you mean that when you touch an electric fence, for example, and complete the circuit to the ground, the electrons flow from the ground up into you and then into the hot fence wire, rather than from the fence through you to the ground? Learned something new.
Not really, because his premise was incorrect. The source for an electric fence is AC, not DC, generated by something similar to an automobile ignition coil. The electrons will be flowing in alternate directions, not that the body can tell the difference, in small amounts.

Quote:
Okay, then the next question: what circuit is being completed by grounding a human being who's not touching any power source? Why would the electrons flow into him or her?
There is a capacitive component to every conductor, such as a body, even in free space. However, when connected to a constant potential there will be no effect once the voltage has equalized. That will occur very quickly (sub-second) for the configuration as described.

V.
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Old 16th July 2011, 10:45 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Verde View Post
No, that is not correct. Earth, or ground if you prefer, is neutral.
Touching a negative potential with respect to ground will have just as much an effect as touching the same positive voltage.
It's true for DC grounding, where ground is negative.
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Old 16th July 2011, 10:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by dakotajudo View Post
The electric fences we used on the farm where powered by regular car batteries, which store electrons. When you touch the fence, electrons flow from the battery to ground.
Actually, batteries store potential energy, not electrons per se. If you provide a circuit between - and + terminals electrons will flow, ( and the 'holes' in the opposite direction).

Connecting a car battery directly to an electric fence would not be productive, unless the cows or horses or whatever have a tendency to lick the wires. Try putting a 9v battery on your tongue for a cheap thrill. There would have to be a piece of circuitry between the power source and the fence to generate a low current, high voltage pulse to deter the critters.

Getting to be a bit of a derail, so as for the OP; it sounds like a complete load of nonsense to me. Maybe someone is spamming?

V.
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Old 16th July 2011, 11:02 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by dakotajudo View Post
It's true for DC grounding, where ground is negative.
Well, yes of course. then you have established a reference. That is true for modern vehicle electric systems, and most consumer electronic equipment. By contrast, there is still a lot of telecom equipment that is positive ground with a -48v supply. A lot of old cars had a positive ground configuration; there are some corrosion reasons for doing so.

None of this is relevant to the OP, where no polarity reference had been established.

V.
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Old 16th July 2011, 11:27 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Verde View Post
Actually, batteries store potential energy, not electrons per se. If you provide a circuit between - and + terminals electrons will flow, ( and the 'holes' in the opposite direction).

Connecting a car battery directly to an electric fence would not be productive, unless the cows or horses or whatever have a tendency to lick the wires. Try putting a 9v battery on your tongue for a cheap thrill. There would have to be a piece of circuitry between the power source and the fence to generate a low current, high voltage pulse to deter the critters.

Getting to be a bit of a derail, so as for the OP; it sounds like a complete load of nonsense to me. Maybe someone is spamming?

V.
...it's not the hum that drives them away. It's the current flowing through their body when they touch the fence. For this, DC is generally used because, well, it's like when you touch a 9v battery to your tongue.

As has been pointed out, batteries don't store electrons. They are far more complex than that. However, even if they did, current would still flow from the negative pole to the positive pole. This happens because, on an atomic level, electrons are easier to separate from the atom than, say, protons and, once separated, are attracted to the more positive pole (on an atomic level, the "hole" left by the previous electron in the chain moving to the hole left by the...etc.). The moving position of the hole is the "signal" used to run electronics (generally on a smaller scale than you're currently envisioning).


Of course, I didn't feel a need to go all that much in depth and explain exactly how it works because Pup didn't need to know all of that to understand what difference it made having Earth as ground. But, there you have it.
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Old 16th July 2011, 11:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
So when is he doing those double-blind tests to eliminate the placebo effect?
Bingo. Telling me "I slept on this mat, and I slept better" tells me nothing. Have a hundred people sleep on the mat for a month, without knowing they're sleeping on it, and see what happens then.
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Old 16th July 2011, 11:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
However, even if they did, current would still flow from the negative pole to the positive pole.
I would correct that to say electrons flow from negative to positive. Current flows from positive to negative.

In the vast majority of cases, you don't care that the charge carrier is negative. When you draw diagrams, your current flow (in amps) flows from positive to negative.
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Old 16th July 2011, 12:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
So when is he doing those double-blind tests to eliminate the placebo effect?

It occurs to me that he's missing a great marketing angle. He should say:

Primitive man slept touching the ground, but we now sleep in wooden beds on wooden floors, which prevents our current from reaching the earth at night. This unnatural way of sleeping causes...

The people who are into natural=good and artificial=bad would love it.



That should do the job.

Wait, I just read the spiel on the guy's page, and he says: "The earth's natural electrons flow right up through the ground wire and onto the mat, even if you're in a high rise."

I don't know much about electricity, but is that right? I thought that ground wires were to drain electricity out of things into the earth, instead of through a less comfortable path like your body if you accidentally touched a hot wire.

If you do Bikewer's thing, which way, if any, would electrons be flowing in that wire? (Assuming that lightning isn't striking the ground nearby.)
You're right, it doesn't work!!!
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Old 16th July 2011, 12:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
Because your body is full of positive (and negative) ions. Flowing electrons into your body is supposed to neutralize that positive charge.

Think of when you shuffle your feet on the carpet and touch a door knob. There's a charge that your body can build up and grounding to earth allows that charge to be neutralized. That's the basic theory behind it, anyway. Not sure it's totally true. But that's the theory...Whether that allows you to sleep better or not is a different story.
But under normal conditions you are neutral (for each positive ion there must be an equivalent negative one) If you build up a charge ON THE SURFACE of your body, it discharges into the air or something maybe grounded (doorknobs are not grounded - not the ones I know anyway -but you can spark coming in contact with them )slowly or quickly depending on the conditions and what you specifically do. Unless the bed is made of electrically conducting material, it will have no effect on this - and I do not believe the makers are speaking of static electricity anyway.
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Old 16th July 2011, 12:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
If you do Bikewer's thing, which way, if any, would electrons be flowing in that wire? (Assuming that lightning isn't striking the ground nearby.)
Nothing. It would immediately drain away any static potential, and prevent any such gain thereafter. Normal currents require a circuit, not just a single attachment.

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
Electrons flow against the commonly believed direction. It's easier to visualize current flowing with signal direction than against, so that's how it's most often presented. But, really, the way current works is by electrons flowing from - to + (- being earth ground). Remember, positive attracts negatively charged electrons. Each time an electron moves one atom closer to the body, a hole opens up where it was (which is the signal path), allowing the next electron in line to shift that direction.
Expanding on this a little: when Ben Franklin was investigating electricity, he imagined that there were small corpuscles of charge (his big contribution to the science was proving that static electricity, as in lightening, is the same as electricty in a circuit - he showed that lightening could charge his battery, a Leiden jar) moving from the place of + potential on the battery to -. Later it was determined that these electrons were actually negative, so in reality they flow from - to +. Rather than confuse people by changing battery terminals and nomenclatures, they just carried on, since it really makes no difference to anyone not involved in real circuitry. So they transferred the confusion to the engineers, where it rightly belongs as a right-of-passage.

Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Okay, then the next question: what circuit is being completed by grounding a human being who's not touching any power source? Why would the electrons flow into him or her?
None, except in the case of fast change of voltage over time (the essence of the difference between AC and DC). In an AC circuit current can still flow due to properties of currents similar to inertia in mechanical systems (call induction) and properties similar to springiness (called capacitance), which have the effects of storing some of the energy when the voltage changes. So, at the point that Bikewer touches the copper wire, his potential may change rapidly, and static electricity will flow out (or in), but once it equalizes, there will be no further flow.

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
Because your body is full of positive (and negative) ions. Flowing electrons into your body is supposed to neutralize that positive charge.
Ions are rather rare in real life. Only in solutions will they be abundant, and then they will almost always be balanced (just as many + as - in the sol). Ions in the air will tend to gather free electrons or shed them until they are neutral, leaving free electrons (or a dearth of such) laying around.

Earth (or ground), by virtue of its huge size, can act as either a source or a sink for free electrons. It is, basically, neutral; that is, it's potential *defines* neutral. Anything that differs in potential to the local ground has a positive or negative potential WRT ground. Grounding some part of a circuit guarantees that that part of the circuit (usually also connected to the exterior case/handle) won't electrocute you if you handle it while standing on the ground.

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Fraud, scam, targeting the omnipresent swarms of woo.
That's the answer to the OP. Additionally, never, ever trust the assurances of anyone who has the potential(!) to make money off his word. That defines a conflict of interest.
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Old 16th July 2011, 12:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
How would this be done on the space station?
Not a simple question. In general the body of the space station will be treated as an artificial ground by the equipment inside (probably), but that potential could well be thousands of volts of potential different from the real Earth. This amounts to a static difference which has to be drained off whenever anything on the station returns to Earth. It usually simply drains off into the atmosphere at a safe, unnoticed rate, but handling in the general case, where the station might collect lots of charge from charged solar wind particles or within the van Allen belts/magnetosphere, is not trivial.
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Old 16th July 2011, 12:41 PM   #27
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By the way, this "negative ions in the air" baloney lead to the demise of a supercomputer manufacturer in Colorado called Denelcor in the 1980s. They were working with bleeding edge electronics, with lots of potential for static faults. They installed an ion emission system to control it, but they continued to suffer lots of bad chips, lost time and missed schedules. They found, after much testing, that the system was causing the faults rather than alleviating them, but the schedules blown lead to their eventual bankruptcy.
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Old 16th July 2011, 01:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
But under normal conditions you are neutral (for each positive ion there must be an equivalent negative one) If you build up a charge ON THE SURFACE of your body, it discharges into the air or something maybe grounded (doorknobs are not grounded - not the ones I know anyway -but you can spark coming in contact with them )slowly or quickly depending on the conditions and what you specifically do. Unless the bed is made of electrically conducting material, it will have no effect on this - and I do not believe the makers are speaking of static electricity anyway.
The doorknob doesn't have to be grounded, it merely acts as the 2nd pole (either more negative or more positive, depending on your personal ions). Thus, current flows (again, from more negative to more positive - either to you or to the doorknob, doesn't matter...you still feel the shock either way the current flows).
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Old 16th July 2011, 01:48 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by shadron View Post
Expanding on this a little: when Ben Franklin was investigating electricity, he imagined that there were small corpuscles of charge (his big contribution to the science was proving that static electricity, as in lightening, is the same as electricty in a circuit - he showed that lightening could charge his battery, a Leiden jar) moving from the place of + potential on the battery to -. Later it was determined that these electrons were actually negative, so in reality they flow from - to +. Rather than confuse people by changing battery terminals and nomenclatures, they just carried on, since it really makes no difference to anyone not involved in real circuitry. So they transferred the confusion to the engineers, where it rightly belongs as a right-of-passage.
Thanks, saved me some typing.

Circuitry is drawn the way it is because of convention (as explained above) and because for troubleshooting/teaching purposes, it's easier to teach how to troubleshoot signal flow rather than current flow (in electronics, at least). Relatively minor difference in the real world, but there it is.

Quote:
Ions are rather rare in real life. Only in solutions will they be abundant, and then they will almost always be balanced (just as many + as - in the sol). Ions in the air will tend to gather free electrons or shed them until they are neutral, leaving free electrons (or a dearth of such) laying around.
Not quite rare enough. ESD is a major issue for electronics manufacturers (and technicians). We're not talking massive amounts of ions here, I think I should have explained that in the beginning. But, there are ions - more of them if you shuffle your socked feet against the carpet while rubbing a balloon on your hair while your skin is very dry - on/in the human body. This is what causes ESD (either to a doorknob or a PCB).

But, yes, basically right in that ions are, relatively, rare. But, then, we're discussing the "few" ions there are and whether grounding oneself at night has any affect on the human body.
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Old 16th July 2011, 04:00 PM   #30
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That's poetic.
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Old 16th July 2011, 04:21 PM   #31
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This is an interesting test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLOx1kWCWoc

Guy hooks self up to multimeter and tests his, er, voltage? Multimeter shows higher voltage when not touching grounding pad and much lower voltage when in contact with grounding pad.

There IS such a thing as EMF sickness, now.
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Old 16th July 2011, 04:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by corbin View Post
This is an interesting test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLOx1kWCWoc

Guy hooks self up to multimeter and tests his, er, voltage? Multimeter shows higher voltage when not touching grounding pad and much lower voltage when in contact with grounding pad.

There IS such a thing as EMF sickness, now.
I can do the same thing by using lotion on my skin, or just getting my skin wet even...
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Old 16th July 2011, 05:11 PM   #33
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Can one genuinely be a skeptic?

Thanks everyone for their answers. Quite some interest this discussion has raised.

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
Isn't the monitor the guy uses grounded?
No, the Zeo is a wireless sleep monitor. I'd link to it, if it weren't for fear of being accused of spamming again.

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
vladimir - Are you spamming this product? I haven't been able to decide yet, but my first impression was that you were and I'm still getting that vibe.
No, I'm not spamming that product, but I could see why you'd get that vibe.

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
You are brand new on the forum, this is what you decided to start posting about, you provide google search keywords and info on how to find the product, puff up the person behind it, and coyly identify yourself as a skeptic who is 'just wondering'.
I'm actually older than you on the forum (I registered in 2004 and mostly lurked). That was my 12th post, so I couldn't possibly have "started" to post about this dubious mat. I provide Google search keywords because I can't post links until I rack up 15 posts. How else was I supposed to indicate what I was talking about without copy/pasting an entire web page, which would be way closer to spam? I puffed up Dave because his LinkedIn is, well, impressive. I'm "just wondering" because I'm not an electricity whiz, and I also said that my scam radar detector went "quack". Trying to be an honest skeptic, and knowing that Dave is a Quantified Self kind of guy, I didn't automatically dismiss the thing.

Happy with the rebuttal so far? I hoped an ad hominem attacker would at least check my forum profile. Anyway. I can explain exactly why I posted about Dave Asprey's peddling of this mat, but first I want a promise that I won't be accused of being a spammer again.

Last edited by vladimir; 16th July 2011 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 16th July 2011, 05:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Verde View Post
Actually, batteries store potential energy, not electrons per se.
Well, the batteries I'm talking about store chemical energy, and I tend to think of redox reactions in terms of electrons, so perhaps I was imprecise. I've done electrophysiology experiments, but I'm not an electrician, so I may mispeak at atimes.

Originally Posted by Verde View Post
If you provide a circuit between - and + terminals electrons will flow, ( and the 'holes' in the opposite direction).
If the circuit is a living organism, 'holes' would be free protons - hydrogen ions - or other cations diffusing in solution; you get an electrochemical or pH gradient. I don't know 'holes' flowing in the opposite direction is a useful analogy.

Originally Posted by Verde View Post
Connecting a car battery directly to an electric fence would not be productive, unless the cows or horses or whatever have a tendency to lick the wires
....
There would have to be a piece of circuitry between the power source and the fence to generate a low current, high voltage pulse to deter the critters.
Like I said, "battery powered". An electric fence installation includes the "fencer" or fence controller that connects to the battery. And it's generally on the of 3000V. These are fences installed in pasture land, miles away from a source of AC current.

When you hook this type of fence up, the live fence wire is connected to the (+) labeled terminal; the ground wire is connected to (-).

Originally Posted by Verde
None of this is relevant to the OP, where no polarity reference had been established.
Are you sure? The reference polarity is implicit in the nature of the product.
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Old 16th July 2011, 07:05 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by dakotajudo View Post
Well, the batteries I'm talking about store chemical energy, and I tend to think of redox reactions in terms of electrons, so perhaps I was imprecise. I've done electrophysiology experiments, but I'm not an electrician, so I may mispeak at atimes.
Sure, batteries depend on a chemical reaction. The important thing is that they develop a potential difference across their terminals, and can maintain that when current is flowing, for a period of time.

Quote:
If the circuit is a living organism, 'holes' would be free protons - hydrogen ions - or other cations diffusing in solution; you get an electrochemical or pH gradient. I don't know 'holes' flowing in the opposite direction is a useful analogy.
"Holes' {note the quote marks} are a useful fiction that sometimes help when looking at semiconductor physics. They have absolutely nothing to do with protons or hydrogen ions. I have no idea why you would refer to a living organism. That seems to be completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Like I said, "battery powered". An electric fence installation includes the "fencer" or fence controller that connects to the battery. And it's generally on the of 3000V. These are fences installed in pasture land, miles away from a source of AC current.

When you hook this type of fence up, the live fence wire is connected to the (+) labeled terminal; the ground wire is connected to (-).
How does that differ from what I said upstream?

Quote:
Are you sure? The reference polarity is implicit in the nature of the product.
The OP, nor the link, gave no indication of a reference polarity. Which is OK, actually, as there is none.

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Old 16th July 2011, 07:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
I can do the same thing by using lotion on my skin, or just getting my skin wet even...
I don't understand your point. Are you disputing that the electronics cause a voltage reading or that touching the grounding pad zeroes the reading?
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Old 16th July 2011, 07:50 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by corbin View Post
I don't understand your point. Are you disputing that the electronics cause a voltage reading or that touching the grounding pad zeroes the reading?
I'm saying that you can lower the voltage on your skin by using lotion and/or getting your skin wet (amongst other things).

Therefore, I don't particularly see the benefit of lowering external body voltage. Certainly, using lotion on dry skin would not only lower external body voltage, but would also moisturize the skin - so that's a plus in the "just use lotion" corner...
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Old 16th July 2011, 07:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey View Post
I'm saying that you can lower the voltage on your skin by using lotion and/or getting your skin wet (amongst other things).
For a given charge on your body, the voltage will decrease as the surface area increases.

Are you really putting that much lotion on?

Quote:
Therefore, I don't particularly see the benefit of lowering external body voltage. Certainly, using lotion on dry skin would not only lower external body voltage, but would also moisturize the skin - so that's a plus in the "just use lotion" corner...
I have no idea what you are talking about.

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Old 16th July 2011, 08:27 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Verde View Post
For a given charge on your body, the voltage will decrease as the surface area increases.

Are you really putting that much lotion on?
Charge on the human skin is very much dependent on various things. Amongst them is how dry the skin is. The more dry, the more charge is able to build up (this results in a higher voltage). By using lotion on one's skin (or water), the charge is able to be lowered. Since lotion does more than merely lower static charge on the human body, it is more beneficial to use than a pad that merely lowers static charge.

Quote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

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Obviously.
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Old 16th July 2011, 08:30 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by vladimir View Post
Can grounding/earthing mats improve sleep...?
I'm sure they're improving the sleeping of those selling the items. But I'm sure they can already sleep like a baby.
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