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dtugg · 20th July 2011, 02:09 PM

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?

PGH · 20th July 2011, 02:14 PM

That's my criticism of some agnostics. Why even pretend to believe? Shouldn't the all powerful creator of everything that's ever existed know if you're lying or not?

If he's real he's still a prick and I'd rather burn than praise him for eternity. I have better morals than that.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th July 2011, 02:15 PM

What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity?

An imaginary one, of course.

IMST · 20th July 2011, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity?

An imaginary one, of course.

Oh, right. Just cause I'm a little slow check the forum you have to beat me to my own joke. Madam, I accuse you of reverse copyright infringement!

Monketey Ghost · 20th July 2011, 02:18 PM

I think the understanding is that such people have knowledge of god but reject him.

RandFan · 20th July 2011, 02:19 PM

Not a just one. Not a merciful one. Not an omnicient one. Not an omnipotent one. All have to be sacrificed to accept such a proposition.

To punish someone infinately for a finite crime is malcious and unjust.
If you say god has no choice then god is not omnipotent.
If god is all knowing and merciful why would he even create a system where the end result is infinite punishment?

AvalonXQ · 20th July 2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

Christians?

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

dtugg · 20th July 2011, 02:23 PM

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all?

AvalonXQ · 20th July 2011, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

To punish someone infinately for a finite crime is malcious and unjust.

Upon what basis do you claim this to be true?

More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another?

These arguments seem to come down to assumptions by the non-believer about the metaphysics of morality and sin that can't possibly be known to the non-believer.

AvalonXQ · 20th July 2011, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up.

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

Mudcat · 20th July 2011, 02:26 PM

The same kind of God that would unleash a killer flood on the world, destroying all life. The same kind of God that would withdraw protection from his own chosen people so that they may come to know and fear him. The same kind of God that demands continuous worship, ritual sacrifice, absolute obedience and tithes, all without doing anything in return but occasionally showing his anger for no discernible reason.

One that does not deserve to be acknowledged, let alone worshiped.

Lucky us the bastage does not exist outside the human mind.

dtugg · 20th July 2011, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

Why? Because god says so? Great circular argument there buddy.

AvalonXQ · 20th July 2011, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

Why? Because god says so? Great circular argument there buddy.

What exactly is the circular argument? Spell it out for me, please.

dtugg · 20th July 2011, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

What exactly is the circular argument? Spell it out for me, please.

Perhaps it was incorrect to characterize it as a circular argument. But it is still extremely poor logic to state that "sinning is a very, very terrible thing" when all you have to base this on is a being who is not even proven to exist.

PGH · 20th July 2011, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all?

Because you can make good money that way.

Resume · 20th July 2011, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

No such thing as sin.

Hans · 20th July 2011, 03:12 PM

One with a poor marketing campaign

OrangeCatz · 20th July 2011, 03:18 PM

God has Predestination.

Apparently, God made me to be an atheist, and thus, condemning me to eternity in hell.

Sure, free will and all that. It still doesn't change the fact that God supposedly made me who I am.

AdMan · 20th July 2011, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

Not only that, but this god is supposedly punishing his creations for all eternity. Yep--those beings he made in his own image and to whom he gave minds capable of critical thinking that in many cases led to a rejection of belief in him. And, being omniscient, this god knew that this was going to happen, free will or not, when he created mankind.

Nice guy.

Resume · 20th July 2011, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by AdMan

Not only that, but this god is supposedly punishing his creations for all eternity. Yep--those beings he made in his own image and to whom he gave minds capable of critical thinking that in many cases led to a rejection of belief in him. And, being omniscient, this god knew that this was going to happen, free will or not, when he created mankind.

Nice guy.

Certainly not omnibenevolent. Unless you want to change the meaning of that term, or claim it has a meaning only that creator gives it. In other words, make stuff up.

Pup · 20th July 2011, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

An omniscient, omnipotent god didn't have to create people who he knew would be tortured for eternity. So he chose to create them, knowing he would torture them, rather than not create them at all.

I think that's the point behind the OP. It's the kind of god who likes to see creatures suffer.

Weak Kitten · 20th July 2011, 04:23 PM

I've often thought that you could have a god if you were willing to have only two of the three aspects; omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence.

Omnipotence and Omniscience gets you the nasty, brutish god that many people come to hate just before they convert to Atheism.

Omnipotence and Omni-benevolence gets you what I call the frenetic god. A being who is running all over the place trying to spot fix the errors in the universe even as horrible things are happening where it just can't see. Strangely this doesn't seem to be a very popular view of god, you'd think that IT folks at least would understand this one.

The saddest combo is Omniscience and Omni-benevolence. This is what I call the tortured god. A being forever doomed to know all the pain and suffering of the world and only able in help in small ways, if at all. Strangely, this seems to be the version of god that many Theists go with, perhaps because it is a position all of us can understand and empathize with.

DC · 20th July 2011, 04:27 PM

one that was made up with the intention to control the people?

Complexity · 20th July 2011, 04:39 PM

A christian 'god'?

In other words, a monster.

Toontown · 20th July 2011, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

If sinning is a very, very terrible thing, then it must be an even more terrible thing to create billions of sinners.

So when is this god-thing going to sentence itself to eternal damnation for the very, very terrible sin of creating billions of very, very terrible sinners who must be punished eternally in a very, very terrible way?

Justice is justice. A father of sin is a father of sin. Doesn't matter if the father of sin is all-powerful. That's just an accident of non-birth, and really just makes his inception of sin a million times worse. If sin is very, very terrible, then the father of it must be very, very, very, very terrible, and deserving of a very, very, very, very terrible punishment.

But Goddie-boy doesn't have the guts, does he. Doesn't have the guts to apply the same terrible law to himself that he applies to us. No guts, no integrity. Yet he demands worship. What a hypocritical sack of omnipotent crap.

What did goddie-boy do to earn his omnipotence, BTW? He couldn't have earned it. You can't earn something you've always had. Did you 'earn' your nose?

Toontown · 20th July 2011, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

And I believe you will be annihilated by the cessation of your bodily functions. It seems to be the most consistent interpretation of observable reality.

If I'm right, you're glued and tattooed, aren't you. Is that why you hang around here, arguing that we're all wrong, and a sect of ancient flat-earthers were right?

Ray Brady · 20th July 2011, 06:24 PM

I'll preface this by pointing out I'm an atheist, and believe neither in gods nor Hell nor souls nor an afterlife. But if I did have to come up with an answer to this question, I'd say something like this:

God doesn't sentence people to Hell. Hell is a self-induced state of torture, caused by the soul's refusal to rejoin with the universal creative spirit after death. There are no devils or pitchforks or flames, only an eternal sense of abandonment and isolation. It is this despair that we call Hell, and it can only be alleviated if the soul realizes what has happened to it, which leads to belief.

You could explain ghosts this way too. Probably not chupacabras.

tsig · 20th July 2011, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Annihilationist here.

But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin.

The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.

One mans' sin is another mans' virtue.

tsig · 20th July 2011, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics?

If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********.

Christians?

See title.

tsig · 20th July 2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ray Brady

I'll preface this by pointing out I'm an atheist, and believe neither in gods nor Hell nor souls nor an afterlife. But if I did have to come up with an answer to this question, I'd say something like this:

God doesn't sentence people to Hell. Hell is a self-induced state of torture, caused by the soul's refusal to rejoin with the universal creative spirit after death. There are no devils or pitchforks or flames, only an eternal sense of abandonment and isolation. It is this despair that we call Hell, and it can only be alleviated if the soul realizes what has happened to it, which leads to belief.

You could explain ghosts this way too. Probably not chupacabras.

That's pretty close to Catholic theology that says that the main pain of hell is being separated from god. They just tack on the fires and torture to scare the rubes and keep the pews and coffers full.

slingblade · 20th July 2011, 06:48 PM

Making up scary gods enables people to do terrible things with no personal responsibility.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th July 2011, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost

I think the understanding is that such people have knowledge of god but reject him.

And that makes it less imaginary?

Skeptic Ginger · 20th July 2011, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by slingblade

Making up scary gods enables people to do terrible things with no personal responsibility.

I think it's more like there is some underlying human emotional need to be believed. "If you don't believe me you will be sorry."

But that's pure speculation.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th July 2011, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by IMST

Oh, right. Just cause I'm a little slow check the forum you have to beat me to my own joke. Madam, I accuse you of reverse copyright infringement!

Just random chance I saw the thread first.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th July 2011, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

That's one of the nice things about fiction, it's maleable.

Beerina · 20th July 2011, 06:55 PM

One need not even bother with active tortures by this kind god. Merely noting it is ambivalent about babies being raped to death is enough to judge God a horrible creature that deserves a tortured death itself.

slingblade · 20th July 2011, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I think it's more like there is some underlying human emotional need to be believed. "If you don't believe me you will be sorry."

But that's pure speculation.

And I think I meant just what I said. Not that your opinion is invalid. It just isn't what I was saying.

Gott mit uns.

Ethnikos · 20th July 2011, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Upon what basis do you claim this to be true?

More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another?

These arguments seem to come down to assumptions by the non-believer about the metaphysics of morality and sin that can't possibly be known to the non-believer.

The bases of it is we all acknowledge that it is true, whether somehow technically it may not be, then it is still relevant and if God is to not be universaly, and rightfully hated, then the verdict of the governed needs to be addressed.
The evidence of the excessiveness is that everyone thinks so, so then it is. If not, then the burden of proof is on the other side.
Are you a believer in metaphysics, or are you a believer in God?
What is this secret knowledge? The only one I can think of as being possible is the compunctions of the Holy Spirit to have actual emotions of compassion on people you may otherwise have no problem causing harm to.
Who is harmed, should be questioned. Do you mean if I sin, then God is injured, so restitution must be make? And since god is so much bigger than me, his sense of injury is so great that an eternity of me suffering will never match the pain god felt when I had a nasty thought one day?

JudeBrando · 20th July 2011, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.

So "eternal" really means temporary?

Ethnikos · 20th July 2011, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by JudeBrando

So "eternal" really means temporary?

Right, annihilation contradicts his earlier statement about eternal beings.

20th July 2011, 02:09 PM	#1
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity? Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics? If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********. Christians?

20th July 2011, 02:14 PM	#2
PGH Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,002	That's my criticism of some agnostics. Why even pretend to believe? Shouldn't the all powerful creator of everything that's ever existed know if you're lying or not? If he's real he's still a prick and I'd rather burn than praise him for eternity. I have better morals than that.
PGH Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,002

20th July 2011, 02:15 PM	#3
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity? An imaginary one, of course.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

20th July 2011, 02:16 PM	#4
IMST If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,133	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger What kind of god sentences people to be tortured for eternity? An imaginary one, of course. Oh, right. Just cause I'm a little slow check the forum you have to beat me to my own joke. Madam, I accuse you of reverse copyright infringement!
	__________________ Creativity is more than just being different. Anybody can plan weird; that's easy. What's hard is to be as simple as Bach. Making the simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. - Charles Mingus

20th July 2011, 02:18 PM	#5
Monketey Ghost Body of Work Join Date: May 2003 Location: I'm on your screen! Posts: 14,815	I think the understanding is that such people have knowledge of god but reject him.
	__________________ _{The membership of this forum is henceforth to refer to me as potato-headed Bobby} _{SSKCAS, member in long standing}

20th July 2011, 02:19 PM	#6
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,970	Not a just one. Not a merciful one. Not an omnicient one. Not an omnipotent one. All have to be sacrificed to accept such a proposition. To punish someone infinately for a finite crime is malcious and unjust. If you say god has no choice then god is not omnipotent. If god is all knowing and merciful why would he even create a system where the end result is infinite punishment?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

20th July 2011, 02:19 PM	#7
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by dtugg Christians? Annihilationist here. But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin. The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

20th July 2011, 02:23 PM	#8
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all?

20th July 2011, 02:23 PM	#9
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by RandFan To punish someone infinately for a finite crime is malcious and unjust. Upon what basis do you claim this to be true? More specifically, what a priori evidence do you provide that an infinite punishment must always be excessive for eternal betrayal of one eternal being by another? These arguments seem to come down to assumptions by the non-believer about the metaphysics of morality and sin that can't possibly be known to the non-believer.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

20th July 2011, 02:25 PM	#10
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by dtugg I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

20th July 2011, 02:26 PM	#11
Mudcat Man of a Thousand Memes Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 3,771	The same kind of God that would unleash a killer flood on the world, destroying all life. The same kind of God that would withdraw protection from his own chosen people so that they may come to know and fear him. The same kind of God that demands continuous worship, ritual sacrifice, absolute obedience and tithes, all without doing anything in return but occasionally showing his anger for no discernible reason. One that does not deserve to be acknowledged, let alone worshiped. Lucky us the bastage does not exist outside the human mind.
	__________________ The major problem with Ocham's Razor is that while the simplest answer may be the best answer that doesn't make it the only answer or the right one. Kopji: A perfect utopia where everyone follows the rules is more like a hell than a heaven. Last edited by Mudcat; 20th July 2011 at 02:28 PM.

20th July 2011, 02:26 PM	#12
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Annihilationist here. But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin. The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that. Why? Because god says so? Great circular argument there buddy.

20th July 2011, 02:27 PM	#13
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by dtugg Why? Because god says so? Great circular argument there buddy. What exactly is the circular argument? Spell it out for me, please.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

20th July 2011, 02:33 PM	#14
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ What exactly is the circular argument? Spell it out for me, please. Perhaps it was incorrect to characterize it as a circular argument. But it is still extremely poor logic to state that "sinning is a very, very terrible thing" when all you have to base this on is a being who is not even proven to exist.

20th July 2011, 02:35 PM	#15
PGH Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,002	Originally Posted by dtugg I remember seeing one priest talking about how he didn't believe that god could be so cruel to send people to hell for no real reason and that if you don't accept Jesus that you simply stop existing when you die. Certainly more reasonable. But I am pretty sure he just made that crap up. If you can make stuff up about the "holy" bible that you don't like what point is there in believing it at all? Because you can make good money that way.
PGH Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,002

20th July 2011, 02:41 PM	#16
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,144	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Annihilationist here. But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin. The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that. No such thing as sin.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,144

20th July 2011, 03:12 PM	#17
Hans Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW United States Posts: 2,860	One with a poor marketing campaign

20th July 2011, 03:18 PM	#18
OrangeCatz Critical Thinker Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Northwest, USA Posts: 401	God has Predestination. Apparently, God made me to be an atheist, and thus, condemning me to eternity in hell. Sure, free will and all that. It still doesn't change the fact that God supposedly made me who I am.
	__________________ I am very articulate and verbose and stuff. GENERATION 9: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

20th July 2011, 03:19 PM	#19
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,356	Originally Posted by dtugg Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics? Not only that, but this god is supposedly punishing his creations for all eternity. Yep--those beings he made in his own image and to whom he gave minds capable of critical thinking that in many cases led to a rejection of belief in him. And, being omniscient, this god knew that this was going to happen, free will or not, when he created mankind. Nice guy.
AdMan Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 7,356	__________________ It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

20th July 2011, 03:42 PM	#20
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,144	Originally Posted by AdMan Not only that, but this god is supposedly punishing his creations for all eternity. Yep--those beings he made in his own image and to whom he gave minds capable of critical thinking that in many cases led to a rejection of belief in him. And, being omniscient, this god knew that this was going to happen, free will or not, when he created mankind. Nice guy. Certainly not omnibenevolent. Unless you want to change the meaning of that term, or claim it has a meaning only that creator gives it. In other words, make stuff up.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,144

20th July 2011, 03:58 PM	#21
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,626	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Annihilationist here. But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin. The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that. An omniscient, omnipotent god didn't have to create people who he knew would be tortured for eternity. So he chose to create them, knowing he would torture them, rather than not create them at all. I think that's the point behind the OP. It's the kind of god who likes to see creatures suffer.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,626

20th July 2011, 04:23 PM	#22
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,808	I've often thought that you could have a god if you were willing to have only two of the three aspects; omnipotence, omniscience, and omni-benevolence. Omnipotence and Omniscience gets you the nasty, brutish god that many people come to hate just before they convert to Atheism. Omnipotence and Omni-benevolence gets you what I call the frenetic god. A being who is running all over the place trying to spot fix the errors in the universe even as horrible things are happening where it just can't see. Strangely this doesn't seem to be a very popular view of god, you'd think that IT folks at least would understand this one. The saddest combo is Omniscience and Omni-benevolence. This is what I call the tortured god. A being forever doomed to know all the pain and suffering of the world and only able in help in small ways, if at all. Strangely, this seems to be the version of god that many Theists go with, perhaps because it is a position all of us can understand and empathize with.
	__________________ A quick reminder to all participants that although incomprehensibility is not against the Membership Agreement, incivility is. Please try and remember this, and keep your exchanges polite and respectful. -arthwollipot

20th July 2011, 04:27 PM	#23
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	one that was made up with the intention to control the people?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

20th July 2011, 04:39 PM	#24
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	A christian 'god'? In other words, a monster.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

20th July 2011, 05:51 PM	#25
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,646	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Annihilationist here. But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin. The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that. If sinning is a very, very terrible thing, then it must be an even more terrible thing to create billions of sinners. So when is this god-thing going to sentence itself to eternal damnation for the very, very terrible sin of creating billions of very, very terrible sinners who must be punished eternally in a very, very terrible way? Justice is justice. A father of sin is a father of sin. Doesn't matter if the father of sin is all-powerful. That's just an accident of non-birth, and really just makes his inception of sin a million times worse. If sin is very, very terrible, then the father of it must be very, very, very, very terrible, and deserving of a very, very, very, very terrible punishment. But Goddie-boy doesn't have the guts, does he. Doesn't have the guts to apply the same terrible law to himself that he applies to us. No guts, no integrity. Yet he demands worship. What a hypocritical sack of omnipotent crap. What did goddie-boy do to earn his omnipotence, BTW? He couldn't have earned it. You can't earn something you've always had. Did you 'earn' your nose?
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,646

20th July 2011, 05:59 PM	#26
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,646	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture. And I believe you will be annihilated by the cessation of your bodily functions. It seems to be the most consistent interpretation of observable reality. If I'm right, you're glued and tattooed, aren't you. Is that why you hang around here, arguing that we're all wrong, and a sect of ancient flat-earthers were right?
Toontown Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,646

20th July 2011, 06:24 PM	#27
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 589	I'll preface this by pointing out I'm an atheist, and believe neither in gods nor Hell nor souls nor an afterlife. But if I did have to come up with an answer to this question, I'd say something like this: God doesn't sentence people to Hell. Hell is a self-induced state of torture, caused by the soul's refusal to rejoin with the universal creative spirit after death. There are no devils or pitchforks or flames, only an eternal sense of abandonment and isolation. It is this despair that we call Hell, and it can only be alleviated if the soul realizes what has happened to it, which leads to belief. You could explain ghosts this way too. Probably not chupacabras.
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 589

20th July 2011, 06:26 PM	#28
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,257	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Annihilationist here. But the basic answer is that whatever Hades is, it is the appropriate and proportional response for sin. The correlary is that sinning is a very, very terrible thing, and humans are too wrapped up in it to understand that. One mans' sin is another mans' virtue.

20th July 2011, 06:32 PM	#29
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,257	one that really, really knows how to carry a grudge Originally Posted by dtugg Like the title says what kind of god would do this simply because one finds the evidence that the Jesus being the son of god and all to be lacking? I can understand doing it to people like Hitler or Stalin but regular everyday people who happen to be skeptics? If this god exists it is probably the most evil being in the history of the universe seeing as how it has sentenced tens of billions of people to spend eternity suffering for no real crimes. And perhaps more sentient beings on other planets. If I was sure that it existed, I would worship it out of fear probably, but not because I felt it deserved to be worshiped. I guess it would know that though being omniscient and all. So I would be **********. Christians? See title.

20th July 2011, 06:38 PM	#30
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 27,257	Originally Posted by Ray Brady I'll preface this by pointing out I'm an atheist, and believe neither in gods nor Hell nor souls nor an afterlife. But if I did have to come up with an answer to this question, I'd say something like this: God doesn't sentence people to Hell. Hell is a self-induced state of torture, caused by the soul's refusal to rejoin with the universal creative spirit after death. There are no devils or pitchforks or flames, only an eternal sense of abandonment and isolation. It is this despair that we call Hell, and it can only be alleviated if the soul realizes what has happened to it, which leads to belief. You could explain ghosts this way too. Probably not chupacabras. That's pretty close to Catholic theology that says that the main pain of hell is being separated from god. They just tack on the fires and torture to scare the rubes and keep the pews and coffers full.

20th July 2011, 06:48 PM	#31
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Making up scary gods enables people to do terrible things with no personal responsibility.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

20th July 2011, 06:49 PM	#32
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by Monketey Ghost I think the understanding is that such people have knowledge of god but reject him. And that makes it less imaginary?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

20th July 2011, 06:51 PM	#33
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by slingblade Making up scary gods enables people to do terrible things with no personal responsibility. I think it's more like there is some underlying human emotional need to be believed. "If you don't believe me you will be sorry." But that's pure speculation.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

20th July 2011, 06:52 PM	#34
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by IMST Oh, right. Just cause I'm a little slow check the forum you have to beat me to my own joke. Madam, I accuse you of reverse copyright infringement! Just random chance I saw the thread first.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

20th July 2011, 06:54 PM	#35
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,799	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I also believe that unforgiven sinners are annihilated following the resurrection and judgement. It seems to be the most consistent reading with Scripture. That's one of the nice things about fiction, it's maleable.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)