Bioflow bracelets

zooterkin · 22nd July 2011, 02:48 AM

The company I work for has a Sports and Social club which has special offers from time to time. The latest is a 10% discount on Bioflow products. I assume that there is no proven effect of wearing magnets on bracelets on your health, especially as most of the claims are carefully worded to avoid actually claiming anything (e.g. "To date, over a million people worldwide have made the decision to try our products and we now have thousands of testimonials from customers whose lives have been changed by Bioflow Magnotherapy."). However, there is a link to a BMJ article which they are claiming shows:

Quote:

What this study adds
Bracelets with static magnets decrease the pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee, over and above the effects of placebo.
These benefits are supplementary to those from usual treatments.

However, the summary in the article itself says:

Quote:

Results Mean pain scores were reduced more in the standard magnet group than in the dummy group (mean difference 1.3 points, 95% confidence interval 0.05 to 2.55). Self reported blinding status did not affect the results. The scores for secondary outcome measures were consistent with the WOMAC A scores.

Conclusion Pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee decreases when wearing magnetic bracelets. It is uncertain whether this response is due to specific or non-specific (placebo) effects.

which seems a lot less definitive to me.

So, first, can someone who knows a bit more than me confirm that these are a waste of money (I'm 95% sure that they are, but I'd like to be certain!). Second, any suggestions on the best way to suggest to the S&SC that they shouldn't waste company resources on promoting woo. (I imagine they were approached by Bioflow, rather than went looking for them in particular, and simply didn't realise what they were.)

Capsid · 22nd July 2011, 03:38 AM

The study does appear to show a real improvement but it cannot be discounted that the patients knew they were wearing a magnet rather than a dummy despite them saying otherwise. So overall I'd say it's inconclusive which is what the authors concluded too.

jli · 22nd July 2011, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

However, the summary in the article itself says:
which seems a lot less definitive to me.

So, first, can someone who knows a bit more than me confirm that these are a waste of money (I'm 95% sure that they are, but I'd like to be certain!). Second, any suggestions on the best way to suggest to the S&SC that they shouldn't waste company resources on promoting woo. (I imagine they were approached by Bioflow, rather than went looking for them in particular, and simply didn't realise what they were.)

You are correct, that it is a waste of money.

It is also a good example that it does pay to take a look at the original articles instead of promotional material.

I think you should show it to them for comparison with the sales material. You might also want to show them a few more studies, that demonstrate that static magnets do not perform better than placebo. See for instance this study: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/290...ll.pdf+htmlAnd here is a summary of a more recent study: http://www.archives-pmr.org/article/...199-1/abstract (Only the abstract is avialble for free).

This post on SBM may come in handy as well: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-magnets-heal/

Complexity · 22nd July 2011, 07:18 AM

Ask your company if they are comfortable supporting a fraudulent company and their woo products.

Mojo · 22nd July 2011, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Capsid

The study does appear to show a real improvement but it cannot be discounted that the patients knew they were wearing a magnet rather than a dummy despite them saying otherwise.

Effective blinding is a bit tricky because magnets tend to be magnetic.

Bikewer · 22nd July 2011, 07:42 AM

Bracelets, bracelets...... My dad was making copper bracelets for himself way back when THAT fad was popular....
How about magic necklaces, or earrings, or perhaps magnetic C-rings to restore potency.....

ApolloGnomon · 22nd July 2011, 07:54 AM

I don't recommend magnetic bracelets. They can interrupt the flow of chi through the body.

LarianLeQuella · 22nd July 2011, 08:42 AM

Same excrement, different name...

Considering the size of this market, there sure are a lot of gullible consumers. I guess that saying was right about fools and money...

Turgor · 22nd July 2011, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon

I don't recommend magnetic bracelets. They can interrupt the flow of chi through the body.

Chi? Isn't that the stuff that flows through bovine lower intestines?

ApolloGnomon · 22nd July 2011, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Turgor

Chi? Isn't that the stuff that flows through bovine lower intestines?

Yeah, I buy chi in 30# bags to grow tomatoes.

Number Six · 22nd July 2011, 10:59 AM

Rory McIlroy, the young golfer who won the US Open recently and is considered someone that will be a big name in golfing for a long time, apparently uses the magnets.

http://www.trionz.com/?cmd=athletes&id=3

Complexity · 22nd July 2011, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Number Six

Rory McIlroy, the young golfer who won the US Open recently and is considered someone that will be a big name in golfing for a long time, apparently uses the magnets.

http://www.trionz.com/?cmd=athletes&id=3

And?

What should we take away from this?

Number Six · 22nd July 2011, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

And?

What should we take away from this?

That being good at golf doesn't necessarily equate to being a critical thinker? I don't know. I wasn't trying to make any special conclusion, rather I knew McIlroy used that stuff and when I saw this thread I thought it would interest others to know about it too.

Complexity · 22nd July 2011, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Number Six

That being good at golf doesn't necessarily equate to being a critical thinker? I don't know. I wasn't trying to make any special conclusion, rather I knew McIlroy used that stuff and when I saw this thread I thought it would interest others to know about it too.

Never fear, that is what I assumed. I was hoping that you weren't suggesting that celebrity is associated with smart choices, though that is the delusion that advertising is based on.

Dr. Keith · 22nd July 2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

And?

What should we take away from this?

Well, there was a case filed earlier this year against several big name stars for fraud because of their endorsement of hologram bracelets.

I don't know where that went, but it seems an effective strategy to make people with relatively deep pockets think twice about promoting this crap.

Complexity · 22nd July 2011, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Well, there was a case filed earlier this year against several big name stars for fraud because of their endorsement of hologram bracelets.

I don't know where that went, but it seems an effective strategy to make people with relatively deep pockets think twice about promoting this crap.

You just made me very happy.

Dr. Keith · 22nd July 2011, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

You just made me very happy.

It pissed me off at the time because I wish I had thought of it!

We were actually talking to one of these companies about representing them on some other matters and I used this litigation to convince the rest of the firm that they are a huge payment risk. So, we ended up not taking them on as a client.

22nd July 2011, 02:48 AM	#1
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,588	Bioflow bracelets The company I work for has a Sports and Social club which has special offers from time to time. The latest is a 10% discount on Bioflow products. I assume that there is no proven effect of wearing magnets on bracelets on your health, especially as most of the claims are carefully worded to avoid actually claiming anything (e.g. "To date, over a million people worldwide have made the decision to try our products and we now have thousands of testimonials from customers whose lives have been changed by Bioflow Magnotherapy."). However, there is a link to a BMJ article which they are claiming shows: Quote: What this study adds Bracelets with static magnets decrease the pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee, over and above the effects of placebo. These benefits are supplementary to those from usual treatments. However, the summary in the article itself says: Quote: Results Mean pain scores were reduced more in the standard magnet group than in the dummy group (mean difference 1.3 points, 95% confidence interval 0.05 to 2.55). Self reported blinding status did not affect the results. The scores for secondary outcome measures were consistent with the WOMAC A scores. Conclusion Pain from osteoarthritis of the hip and knee decreases when wearing magnetic bracelets. It is uncertain whether this response is due to specific or non-specific (placebo) effects. which seems a lot less definitive to me. So, first, can someone who knows a bit more than me confirm that these are a waste of money (I'm 95% sure that they are, but I'd like to be certain!). Second, any suggestions on the best way to suggest to the S&SC that they shouldn't waste company resources on promoting woo. (I imagine they were approached by Bioflow, rather than went looking for them in particular, and simply didn't realise what they were.)
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

22nd July 2011, 03:38 AM	#2
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,506	The study does appear to show a real improvement but it cannot be discounted that the patients knew they were wearing a magnet rather than a dummy despite them saying otherwise. So overall I'd say it's inconclusive which is what the authors concluded too.
Capsid Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,506	Last edited by Capsid; 22nd July 2011 at 03:38 AM. Reason: Grammar

22nd July 2011, 04:18 AM	#3
jli Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 312	Originally Posted by zooterkin However, the summary in the article itself says: which seems a lot less definitive to me. So, first, can someone who knows a bit more than me confirm that these are a waste of money (I'm 95% sure that they are, but I'd like to be certain!). Second, any suggestions on the best way to suggest to the S&SC that they shouldn't waste company resources on promoting woo. (I imagine they were approached by Bioflow, rather than went looking for them in particular, and simply didn't realise what they were.) You are correct, that it is a waste of money. It is also a good example that it does pay to take a look at the original articles instead of promotional material. I think you should show it to them for comparison with the sales material. You might also want to show them a few more studies, that demonstrate that static magnets do not perform better than placebo. See for instance this study: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/290...ll.pdf+htmlAnd here is a summary of a more recent study: http://www.archives-pmr.org/article/...199-1/abstract (Only the abstract is avialble for free). This post on SBM may come in handy as well: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...-magnets-heal/
	__________________ Cancer is not a fungus. Anaximperator-blog

22nd July 2011, 07:18 AM	#4
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Ask your company if they are comfortable supporting a fraudulent company and their woo products.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

22nd July 2011, 07:35 AM	#5
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,091	Originally Posted by Capsid The study does appear to show a real improvement but it cannot be discounted that the patients knew they were wearing a magnet rather than a dummy despite them saying otherwise. Effective blinding is a bit tricky because magnets tend to be magnetic.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

22nd July 2011, 07:42 AM	#6
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,532	Bracelets, bracelets...... My dad was making copper bracelets for himself way back when THAT fad was popular.... How about magic necklaces, or earrings, or perhaps magnetic C-rings to restore potency.....

22nd July 2011, 07:54 AM	#7
ApolloGnomon Aluminum Tripod Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Time Zone Zed Zed Plural Zed Alpha Posts: 1,906	I don't recommend magnetic bracelets. They can interrupt the flow of chi through the body.
	__________________ Lunar Sample Compendium ............Apollo Lunar Surface Journal "I'm ignoring the rest of your foaming rant. " JayUtah

22nd July 2011, 08:42 AM	#8
LarianLeQuella Elf Wino Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun Posts: 1,995	Same excrement, different name... Considering the size of this market, there sure are a lot of gullible consumers. I guess that saying was right about fools and money...
	__________________ My crappy blog that no one should be forced to read. Ever... But I like traffic and comments, so have at it if you please. Larian LeQuella Armyn ab Treanid

22nd July 2011, 08:44 AM	#9
Turgor Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 277	Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon I don't recommend magnetic bracelets. They can interrupt the flow of chi through the body. Chi? Isn't that the stuff that flows through bovine lower intestines?

22nd July 2011, 09:06 AM	#10
ApolloGnomon Aluminum Tripod Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Time Zone Zed Zed Plural Zed Alpha Posts: 1,906	Originally Posted by Turgor Chi? Isn't that the stuff that flows through bovine lower intestines? Yeah, I buy chi in 30# bags to grow tomatoes.
	__________________ Lunar Sample Compendium ............Apollo Lunar Surface Journal "I'm ignoring the rest of your foaming rant. " JayUtah

22nd July 2011, 10:59 AM	#11
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Rory McIlroy, the young golfer who won the US Open recently and is considered someone that will be a big name in golfing for a long time, apparently uses the magnets. http://www.trionz.com/?cmd=athletes&id=3
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017

22nd July 2011, 11:02 AM	#12
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by Number Six Rory McIlroy, the young golfer who won the US Open recently and is considered someone that will be a big name in golfing for a long time, apparently uses the magnets. http://www.trionz.com/?cmd=athletes&id=3 And? What should we take away from this?
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

22nd July 2011, 12:07 PM	#13
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Originally Posted by Complexity And? What should we take away from this? That being good at golf doesn't necessarily equate to being a critical thinker? I don't know. I wasn't trying to make any special conclusion, rather I knew McIlroy used that stuff and when I saw this thread I thought it would interest others to know about it too.
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017

22nd July 2011, 12:19 PM	#14
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by Number Six That being good at golf doesn't necessarily equate to being a critical thinker? I don't know. I wasn't trying to make any special conclusion, rather I knew McIlroy used that stuff and when I saw this thread I thought it would interest others to know about it too. Never fear, that is what I assumed. I was hoping that you weren't suggesting that celebrity is associated with smart choices, though that is the delusion that advertising is based on.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

22nd July 2011, 02:19 PM	#15
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,251	Originally Posted by Complexity And? What should we take away from this? Well, there was a case filed earlier this year against several big name stars for fraud because of their endorsement of hologram bracelets. I don't know where that went, but it seems an effective strategy to make people with relatively deep pockets think twice about promoting this crap.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle

22nd July 2011, 03:02 PM	#16
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith Well, there was a case filed earlier this year against several big name stars for fraud because of their endorsement of hologram bracelets. I don't know where that went, but it seems an effective strategy to make people with relatively deep pockets think twice about promoting this crap. You just made me very happy.
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

22nd July 2011, 03:07 PM	#17
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,251	Originally Posted by Complexity You just made me very happy. It pissed me off at the time because I wish I had thought of it! We were actually talking to one of these companies about representing them on some other matters and I used this litigation to convince the rest of the firm that they are a huge payment risk. So, we ended up not taking them on as a client.
	__________________ shift key currently inoperative. sorry for the inconvenience. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Jonah Baldwin: Talk to her, dad. She's a doctor. Sam Baldwin: Of what? Her first name could be Doctor. - Sleepless in Seattle