The End Of The World

[Johnny Marseilles]

The skeptical often think that, according to the Bible, the end would come within the lifetime of Jesus' listeners. It is a mistake to conclude this. They mistake the transfiguration, the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus being at the right hand of power, and John's Revelation at Patmos.

Matthew 16:28 - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Also see Mark 9:1 / Luke 9:27)

The fact is that in the very next verse Matthew reveals that just 6 days later this prophecy was fulfilled. Peter, James and John witnessed the transfiguration. (Matthew 17:1-2 / Luke 9:27-36 / 2 Peter 1:16-18)

Matthew 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (Also see Matthew 24:34 / Mark 13:30 / Luke 21:32)

All of the above verses differ from the verses given in consideration of Matthew 16:28. British scholar G. R. Beasley-Murray: "The phrase 'this generation' should cause no difficulty for interpreters. While admittedly genea in earlier Greek meant birth, progeny, and so race, . . . in the [Greek Septuagint] it most frequently translated the Hebrew term dor, meaning age, age of humankind, or generation in the sense of contemporaries. . . . In sayings attributed to Jesus the term appears to have a twofold connotation: on the one hand it always signifies his contemporaries, and on the other hand it always carries an implicit criticism."

So Jesus could have been directing that statement to the Jewish opposition there around him at that time, who, within a generation would see the destruction of Jerusalem in 66 - 70 C.E. by Titus, the son of Emperor Vespasian where 1,100,000 Jews died and 97,000 were taken captive, most of whom died horrible deaths and the Christians who knew it would come were saved. (Matthew 24:16, 22) And Jesus may have been applying the same to those in opposition in the future as well.

Matthew 26:64 and Mark 14:62 are parallel accounts to one another and you won't have to wait or look far to see them fulfilled. Acts 7:55-56: "But he, being full of holy spirit gazed into heaven and caught sight of God's glory and of Jesus standing at God's right hand, and he said: "Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God's right hand." Also see Psalm 110:1 / Luke 22:69 / Ephesians 1:20 / Colossians 3:1.

John 21:20-23 is somewhat interesting. Jesus may have been telling Peter that John would live longer than him, and in fact John would live 70 years, but also he might have been referring to the prophetic vision that John was given at the end of his life while in exile on the island of Patmos. As recorded in the book of Revelation John was transported to "the Lords day." (Revelation 1:1, 10; Revelation 22:20)

Jesus taught his followers that no one, not even Jesus himself, knew the time of the end of the world. (Matthew 24:36 / Mark 13:32 / Acts 1:7)

Also at this point some clarification should be made as to what exactly is the "end of the world." The Bible says that Earth was given to man for him to fill and subdue it, that the meek will inherit the earth and live forever upon it, and that it will last forever. (Genesis 1:28 / Psalm 37:29; 115:16 / Ecclesiastes 1:4) The end of the world is the end of the present system of things and all that involves. Of Satan's influence and sin, which, when concluding brings much destruction, but when ended, allows peace.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 7:29 / Philippians 1:10 all convey the importance of the missionary work in the early stages of Christianity. They all had important work to do before the end of their lives. Nowhere in any of these passages is it conveyed that they expected the end of the system of things to occur during that time.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 is often used to support the rapture, but actually it is referring to some who were mourning the death of their fellow Christians. Paul was reminding them as well as faithful Christians in the future of the resurrection hope, some to heaven immediately upon death and some to paradise earth upon resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 refers to the presence of Jesus Christ. The Greek noun parousia is used. It means "being alongside." In his work on The Parousia, Israel P. Warren, D.D., wrote: "Had our translators done with this technical word 'parousia' as they did with 'baptisma,' - transferring it unchanged, - or if translated using its exact etymological equivalent, presence, and had it been well understood, as it then would have been, that there is no such thing as a 'Second Presence,' I believe that the entire doctrine would have been different from what it now is. The phrases, 'second advent,' and 'second coming,' would never have been heard of. The church would have been taught to speak of The Presence Of The Lord, as that from which its hopes were to be realized, whether in the near future or at the remotest period, - that under which the world was to be made new, a resurrection both spiritual and corporeal should be attained, and justice and everlasting awards administered."

The word occurs 24 times in the Christian Greek scripture: Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39 / 1 Corinthians 15:23; 16:17 / 2 Corinthians 7:6, 7; 10:10 / Philippians 1:26; 2:12 / 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23 / 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8, 9 / James 5:7, 8 / 2 Peter 1:16; 3:4, 12 / 1 John 2:28.

Pareimi is a related verb with the similar meaning of being present. It also occurs 24 times in the Christian Greek scripture: Matthew 26:50 / Luke 13:1 / John 7:6; 11:28 / Acts 10:21, 33; 12:20; 17:6; 24:19 / Acts 12:20 / 1 Corinthians 5:3, 3 / 2 Corinthians 10:2, 11; 2 Corinthians 11:9; 13:2, 10 / Galatians 4:18, 20 / Colossians 1:6 / Hebrews 12:11; 13:5 / 2 Peter 1:9, 12 / Revelation 17:8.

The Greek word, eleusis (Latin adventu), which conveys the physical act of coming is different and only occurs once in the Christian Greek scripture, at Acts 7:52. Paul was encouraging those with a heavenly hope to remain blameless until their death, or the conclusion of the system of things and the presence, not the physical presence, of Jesus Christ.

In discussing Hebrews 1:2; 9:26 / 1 Peter 1:20; 4:7 it is somewhat difficult to stay on topic of the so called end of the world because the last days that Paul was referring to were not the last days of the present system of things, but rather the last days of the Jewish system of things. Jehovah had given the prophecy of those days 850 years earlier. (Joel 2:28-32 / Acts 2:16-21 / Hebrews 1:1-2) It was the end of God's favor upon the Jewish congregation and the beginning of his favor for the new Christian congregation.

1 John 2:18 refers to the end of the apostolic period. The work mentioned as important in the scriptures at the beginning of this article were near completion and would conclude upon the death of John shortly after he completed the writing of Revelation.

It is interesting that, as with the case of Philippians 4:5, the Lord that is being referred to isn't Jesus Christ but rather, Jehovah. Codex Sinaiticus, Greek, fourth century C.E., Codex Alexandrinus, Greek, fifth century C.E., Vatican ms 1209, Greek, fourth century C.E., Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Hebrew, by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599, Christian Greek Scriptures, Hebrew, by William Robertson, London, 1661, and the Latin Vulgate, by Jerome, c. 400 C.E. (Iuxta Vulgatam Versionem) all read Jehovah.

James 5:7-8 is talking about the presence (parousia) mentioned earlier in this article.

At Hebrews 10:37 Paul quotes Habakkuk 2:2-3 from the Greek Septuagint, which reads "And the Lord answered [me] and said: Write a vision; write it distinctly in a book that the reader may trace these things [may run]; for the vision is for a time yet to come. But it will spring up at last and will not be vain. Though he may tarry, wait for him; for he will assuredly come and will not fail [and will not tarry]."

Revelation 1:1, 3; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20 may undoubtedly amuse the skeptic, who, of course, is familiar with the Biblical fact that a thousand years are as a watch in the night to God (Psalm 90:4), but to the writers of the Bible, especially John when writing Revelation and who would die shortly afterward, the resurrection hope would follow sleep in death which would seem, upon that resurrection, as the same day as they died, though it actually had been thousands of years.

[Ethnikos]

One objection to Revelation is that it says these things will take place soon.
There is a place at the end that says not to add or subtract from the Book.
What if there was advertising for the book to announce its soon release to the scribes for publishing?
Would later on, future scribes, keeping in mind the admonition, and finding this advertising right there with the actual body of the book, and out of fear of not being in compliance, put the advertising promo in as the first three verses of Revelation?

Direct literal translation from the Greek:
revelation of Jesus Christ which gave to him God to show to bond-servants of him which was necessary to happen shortly soon and he signafied having sent by angel of him to bond-servants of him John who testified word of the God and the testimony of Jesus Christ as many as he saw blessed those who reads and those who hear those words of prophecy and who keep those therein it written those for time near

[Gord_in_Toronto]

According to Christians do Good People go to Heaven when they die or do they have to wait for the End-of-Time when they are resurrected?

The New Testament seems somewhat confused on this issue though I have attended funeral services wherein the preacher seems to agree with both eventualities simultaneously.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

According to Christians do Good People go to Heaven when they die or do they have to wait for the End-of-Time when they are resurrected?

The New Testament seems somewhat confused on this issue though I have attended funeral services wherein the preacher seems to agree with both eventualities simultaneously.

The mainstream, or modern Christian teachings are heavily influenced by pagan nonsense. Paul seen this coming, as anyone would have since it is common in religion and was beginning in his day. He used the Greek word mythos (English myth) which was later translated into the Latin fabulas (English fables) at 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

The trinity, the immortal soul, hell, rapture, cross, Christmas and Easter are examples of the Christian apostasy.

Most Christians believe we go to heaven upon death, but the Bible teaches that we were created to live forever on earth without sin. The earth was created for our inhabitance, not heaven. A small number of people will go to heaven in spirit form to rule and judge with Christ Jesus, but the meek, they shall inherit the earth and live forever upon it.

[PixyMisa]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

The skeptical often think that, according to the Bible, the end would come within the lifetime of Jesus' listeners.

That is what it says, yes.

[ehcks]

Why should I believe your Apocalypse more than my Ragnarok?

[PixyMisa]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

The mainstream, or modern Christian teachings are heavily influenced by pagan nonsense.

Well, sure. So too are each and every book of both the Old and the New Testaments. Religions do not arise in a vaccum.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

The mainstream, or modern Christian teachings are heavily influenced by pagan nonsense. Paul seen this coming, as anyone would have since it is common in religion and was beginning in his day. He used the Greek word mythos (English myth) which was later translated into the Latin fabulas (English fables) at 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

The trinity, the immortal soul, hell, rapture, cross, Christmas and Easter are examples of the Christian apostasy.

Most Christians believe we go to heaven upon death, but the Bible teaches that we were created to live forever on earth without sin. The earth was created for our inhabitance, not heaven. A small number of people will go to heaven in spirit form to rule and judge with Christ Jesus, but the meek, they shall inherit the earth and live forever upon it.

You apparently know this. Would you care to explain your reasoning that allows you to reach these conclusions because it seems to me that you are making some gigantic leaps in thinking that I don't see any support for in the Bible.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by ehcks

Why should I believe your Apocalypse more than my Ragnarok?

I only suggest making an informed decision whether it concludes with belief or disbelief. To the "skeptical" faith is a negative concept, but it in and of itself doesn't constitute veneration or obedience. I may have faith, but as Jesus said "The demons know and yet shudder."

If you were as "noble minded" as Paul said the Beroeans were you wouldn't take my word for it, you would examine the scriptures to see if they were true.

The Bible also says that one should beware of the inspired expression of error. Don't believe something just because you want to believe it.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

It is interesting that, as with the case of Philippians 4:5, the Lord that is being referred to isn't Jesus Christ but rather, Jehovah. Codex Sinaiticus, Greek, fourth century C.E.,

Not seeing it.
Did you read the codex yourself?
I'm looking at it right now and it says, theos.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by PixyMisa

Well, sure. So too are each and every book of both the Old and the New Testaments. Religions do not arise in a vaccum.

The terms Old and New Testaments are erroneous. The Hebrew / Aramaic and Christian Greek scriptures were not based upon pagan superstitions.

The months of the Jewish calendar, baptism, wedding rings, wind chimes, and tombstones are pagan in origin, but there is nothing wrong with any of that. many of the Jewish names, likewise, were changed into pagan versions, such as Paul, Jesus etc.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

You apparently know this. Would you care to explain your reasoning that allows you to reach these conclusions because it seems to me that you are making some gigantic leaps in thinking that I don't see any support for in the Bible.

Historically speaking the immortal soul can be found to have influenced Jewish thinking about the time of Alexander the Great, though Babylonian in origin many of the teachings of modern day Christianity were later introduced to Jewish / Christian thinking through later historical persons. The immortal soul through the philosophy of Socrates, the Trinity through Plato, hell through Milton and Dante, the cross through Constantine, Easter from Astarte, the pagan goddess of fertility and consort of Baal, and Christmas through the winter solstice celebrations.

Lets take the immortal soul. Read Ezekiel 18:4. The soul dies. The question then becomes, what is the soul? A somewhat unhapy translation into English, but the soul, according to the Bible, is the blood or the life of any breathing creature.

[Kopji]

What makes you think any of it is true?

[Ethnikos]

oops, I was on the wrong verse. They separate the verses strangely.
I'm at the right spot and in the normal text it has Kurios, meaning Lord.
In the Sinaiticus it has what looks like an abbreviation with two letters which look to me to be for Kurios.
Probably what you should say in your post is something like:
Certain scholars interpret these obscure scribal markings to be a way to indicate Yahweh but never actually used anything that resembled that name.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Not seeing it.
Did you read the codex yourself?
I'm looking at it right now and it says, theos.

So? What is theos? To whom is it applied throughout the Bible? Why conclude it is talking about Jesus? What kind of theos is it?

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

The terms Old and New Testaments are erroneous. The Hebrew / Aramaic and Christian Greek scriptures were not based upon pagan superstitions.

The months of the Jewish calendar, baptism, wedding rings, wind chimes, and tombstones are pagan in origin, but there is nothing wrong with any of that. many of the Jewish names, likewise, were changed into pagan versions, such as Paul, Jesus etc.

The entire New Testament is pagan because every word in the Greek language had religious meanings which are incorporated into the thoughts and concepts of the teachers of Christianity.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Kopji

What makes you think any of it is true?

Who, me? What is true, the pagan influence of modern day Christianity?

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

The entire New Testament is pagan because every word in the Greek language had religious meanings which are incorporated into the thoughts and concepts of the teachers of Christianity.

How would you define pagan? To the Christians the Greeks were pagan and to the Greeks the Christians were pagan?

Would you agree it simply means "outside of?"

If baptisms were practiced by the "pagans" or the people outside of Jewish thinking, the people of the nations, as a public declaration then what harm or signifigance would the adoption of it as the same for the Christians have?

None.

On the other hand to adopt the immortal soul would be contrary to Biblical teachings.

Don't get too hung up on my use of the word pagan.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

So? What is theos? To whom is it applied throughout the Bible? Why conclude it is talking about Jesus? What kind of theos is it?

I was having trouble finding the right spot seeing how the text is not broken down into verses like our modern Bibles.
Theos is the one we are to receive the things in life we need, the Lord is the one coming which I take to indicate Jesus.
I'm just saying there are theories about these mysterious notations in some manuscripts and some will theorise it means Jehovah or something, instead of Lord.
Some people take it a step further and use that to show that Jesus is Jehovah.
But, It never spells out Jehovah in the N.T. text.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

How would you define pagan? To the Christians the Greeks were pagan and to the Greeks the Christians were pagan?
Would you agree it simply means "outside of?"
If baptisms were practiced by the "pagans" or the people outside of Jewish thinking, the people of the nations, as a public declaration then what harm or signifigance would the adoption of it as the same for the Christians have?
None.
On the other hand to adopt the immortal soul would be contrary to Biblical teachings.
Don't get too hung up on my use of the word pagan.

The Greeks thought of people not knowing the Greek language and culture as being barbarians. What do you mean, like the Celts and druids and such, as pagan?
The Greeks did not think they were pagans.
It seems nowadays it is applied to anyone not a "monotheist".

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

Historically speaking the immortal soul can be found to have influenced Jewish thinking about the time of Alexander the Great, though Babylonian in origin many of the teachings of modern day Christianity were later introduced to Jewish / Christian thinking through later historical persons. The immortal soul through the philosophy of Socrates, the Trinity through Plato, hell through Milton and Dante, the cross through Constantine, Easter from Astarte, the pagan goddess of fertility and consort of Baal, and Christmas through the winter solstice celebrations.

Lets take the immortal soul. Read Ezekiel 18:4. The soul dies. The question then becomes, what is the soul? A somewhat unhapy translation into English, but the soul, according to the Bible, is the blood or the life of any breathing creature.

Hmm. I have found a much better translation:

Quote:

New Living Translation (©2007)
For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.

No mention of souls at all. Care to comment?

[Kopji]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

Who, me? What is true, the pagan influence of modern day Christianity?

Quote:

The skeptical often think...

Quote:

Revelation 1:1, 3; 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20 may undoubtedly amuse the skeptic...

I'm just saying that you are poisoning the well by defining skeptics in a narrow way.
I'm saying you are begging the question by arguing from the Bible, when I do not accept it as other than fiction.
And the larger picture is a strawman, where the role of skeptics is to ponder the vast intricacies of the Bible.

Skeptics might very well ask the question that I did - what makes you think it is true?

[PGH]

Religious believers. So obsessed with the end of the world and the death of everything we've ever known.

I'll stick with being an atheist, thanks. We tend to prefer that life go on without all the fireballs and smiting you faithful salivate over.

[paiute]

Unless you are reading it in Aramaic or ancient Greek, you should probably not try to interpret Scripture based on subtleties in the text.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

1 Thessalonians 5:23 refers to the presence of Jesus Christ. The Greek noun parousia is used. It means "being alongside." In his work on The Parousia, Israel P. Warren, D.D., wrote: "Had our translators done with this technical word 'parousia' as they did with 'baptisma,' - transferring it unchanged, - or if translated using its exact etymological equivalent, presence, and had it been well understood, as it then would have been, that there is no such thing as a 'Second Presence,' I believe that the entire doctrine would have been different from what it now is. The phrases, 'second advent,' and 'second coming,' would never have been heard of. The church would have been taught to speak of The Presence Of The Lord, as that from which its hopes were to be realized, whether in the near future or at the remotest period, - that under which the world was to be made new, a resurrection both spiritual and corporeal should be attained, and justice and everlasting awards administered."

The word occurs 24 times in the Christian Greek scripture: Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, 39 / 1 Corinthians 15:23; 16:17 / 2 Corinthians 7:6, 7; 10:10 / Philippians 1:26; 2:12 / 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23 / 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8, 9 / James 5:7, 8 / 2 Peter 1:16; 3:4, 12 / 1 John 2:28.

Parusia is used all these times to indicate a coming and once where it seems clear to me that it should be translated as presence, which was Paul talking about himself but even that could have been referring to his coming to visit those particular people of Thessalonica.
So I can rationalize it to zero, when it does not mean coming.
I find your argument to be worse than just weak but borderline deceptive.

[AdMan]

Originally Posted by PGH

Religious believers. So obsessed with the end of the world and the death of everything we've ever known.

I also think it's pretty silly to argue about how to interpret passages in a book that also includes talking snakes, a talking bush, 900-year-old men and a zombie who woke up three days after death, to name just a few items of biblical nonsense.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

The terms Old and New Testaments are erroneous. The Hebrew / Aramaic and Christian Greek scriptures were not based upon pagan superstitions.
.

bet your life ?

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

Don't get too hung up on my use of the word pagan.

thats it, back away slowly without any sudden moves

[DC]

Quote:

The skeptical often think that, according to the Bible, the end would come within the lifetime of Jesus' listeners.

well i belief the inventors of your religion had no clue when the world will end. especially considering that they messed up knowing when the world formed.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Hmm. I have found a much better translation:



No mention of souls at all. Care to comment?

Same thing. The person is the soul.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) Vol. XIII, p. 467 - Nepes [Hebrew nephesh] is a term of far greater extension than our 'soul,' signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the OT means not a part of man, but the whole man - man as a living being. Similarly, in the NT it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37)

The New Encyclopćdia Britannica (1976), Macropćdia, Vol. 15, p. 152 - The Hebrew term for 'soul' (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses . . . , signifying an 'animated being' and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psychē ('soul') was comparable to nefesh.

The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564 - The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.

[Ethnikos]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

Also at this point some clarification should be made as to what exactly is the "end of the world." The Bible says that Earth was given to man for him to fill and subdue it, that the meek will inherit the earth and live forever upon it, and that it will last forever. (Genesis 1:28 / Psalm 37:29; 115:16 / Ecclesiastes 1:4) The end of the world is the end of the present system of things and all that involves. Of Satan's influence and sin, which, when concluding brings much destruction, but when ended, allows peace.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 could be translated as long time. It is comparing the life of a man to the life of the earth.
How about the Last Day, when Jesus comes in person to raise us up from the dead, how does this figure into your end time?
It looks like you don't have Jesus coming back.
Seems you are leaving out something rather important.

It looks to me that you are essentially saying that the world will continue on a lot like it is but there will be a period of worse wars, followed by peace. Like they repeat in Mass in the Catholic Church which is a dogma it seems, World Without End. So maybe the title would more appropriately be named, The Non-End of the World and Why We do not Allow Jesus to be Held Accountable for Our Own Misinterpretations.

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by DC

well i belief the inventors of your religion had no clue when the world will end.

That is correct. They had no such speculation.

Originally Posted by DC

especially considering that they messed up knowing when the world formed.

That isn't true. That reminds me, I have to post in the Genesis / Science thread.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

The New Catholic Encyclopedia .

how long have you been a catholic ?

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

You apparently know this. Would you care to explain your reasoning that allows you to reach these conclusions because it seems to me that you are making some gigantic leaps in thinking that I don't see any support for in the Bible.

In the gospel of Mathew after Jesus dies on the cross:
Mathew 27:50-53

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This and Revelation indicate that the dead will stay in their graves until the END TIME.

Read revelation properly and you will see. Also many other parts of the NT.

Generally speaking the OT says nothing about the afterlife. Only some of the later Prophets talk about heaven in a very vague way.

[Leumas]

Originally Posted by AdMan

I also think it's pretty silly to argue about how to interpret passages in a book that also includes talking snakes, a talking bush, 900-year-old men and a zombie who woke up three days after death, to name just a few items of biblical nonsense.

INDEED...

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Marduk

how long have you been a catholic ?

I have never belonged and will never belong to any organized religion.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

I have never belonged and will never belong to any organized religion.

so your faith is a bit mix and match then

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Leumas

In the gospel of Mathew after Jesus dies on the cross:
Mathew 27:50-53

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This and Revelation indicate that the dead will stay in their graves until the END TIME.

Read revelation properly and you will see. Also many other parts of the NT.

Generally speaking the OT says nothing about the afterlife. Only some of the later Prophets talk about heaven in a very vague way.

In De viris inlustribus (Concerning Illustrious Men), chapter III, Jerome says: "Matthew, who is also Levi, and who from a publican came to be an apostle, first of all composed a Gospel of Christ in Judaea in the Hebrew language and characters for the benefit of those of the circumcision who had believed." So this (Matthew having been the first gospel) might be a reason for the others having not included the dead people emerging from their graves.

Any serious scholar of the Bible could tell you that at Matthew 27:52-53 the Greek egeiro means simply raised up rather than resurrected back to life, and in addition to this "they" (meaning the bodies that were walking around) is a pronoun, and in Greek all pronouns have gender and "they" is masculine whereas bodies" (the bodies that were lifted up) is in the neuter. They are not the same.

Adam Clarke: "It is difficult to account for the transaction mentioned in verses 52 and 53. Some have thought that these two verses have been introduced into the text of Matthew from the gospel of the Nazarenes, others think the simple meaning is this: - by the earthquake several bodies that had been buried were thrown up and exposed to view, and continued above ground till after Christ's resurrection, and were seen by many persons in the city."

Theobald Daechsel's translation: "And tombs opened up, and many corpses of saints laying at rest were lifted up."

Johannes Greber's translation: "Tombs were laid open, and many bodies of those buried there were tossed upright. In this posture they projected from the graves and were seen by many who passed by the place on their way back to the city."

ETA - Similar events have taken place in recent times, as in Ecuador in 1949 and Bogota, Colombia in 1962 when 200 corpses in the cemetery were thrown out of their tombs by a violent earth tremor. - El Tiempo, Bogotá, Colombia, July 31, 1962.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

That is correct. They had no such speculation.



That isn't true. That reminds me, I have to post in the Genesis / Science thread.

bring it on

[Johnny Marseilles]

Originally Posted by Marduk

so your faith is a bit mix and match then

Faith? My faith is based upon knowledge and I think for myself, though, of course I use the resources of the organized religion. Surely you don't expect anything original from a discussion on a 4-2 thousand year old text or 2,000 years of its obvious transmogrification.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

Faith? My faith is based upon knowledge and I think for myself, .

Your earlier claim that the origins of the bible are not based on pagan belief suggests a lack of knowledge. Thats the problem with basing faith on knowledge, you never know if you know everything

Originally Posted by Johnny Marseilles

though, of course I use the resources of the organized religion. Surely you don't expect anything original from a discussion on a 4-2 thousand year old text or 2,000 years of its obvious transmogrification.

what part of the bible dates back 4000 years ?