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Dayan81 · 28th July 2011, 07:00 PM

Over the last several weeks I have been doing a decent amount of reading of the New Testament, and have found many passages that seem to be quite contrary to what I have been told about Christianity from the many Christians I have gotten to know over the years.

First of all, I have been very often told by Christians that their faith in Christ is all that is required to be in God's favor. There are no deeds, nor commandments, nor works that can make God love you. Only faith in the risen Christ who suffered for our sins as the redeemer of all Mankind, can accomplish this.

This is what I have been told for many years since I first started looking into Christianity in 1993.

However, my readings in the New Testament have shown me things that are quite contrary to what I have been told. It turns out that New Testament actually does have more than a few commandments & requirements for its believers that must be followed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

For example:

1. The Council of Jerusalem made it clear that Christian men need not be circumcised. However, they cannot eat an animal that was strangled, they cannot eat food that was part of an idol-worshiping religious ceremony, they cannot be sexually immoral and they cannot ingest blood.

I have never been told these things by Christians.

2. Romans 13 makes it clear that all Earthly-authorities are ordained & accepted by God, and therefore we are all obligated to pay all taxes that are required of us and even to give respect to all figures of authority.

Again, I was never informed of such a requirement of Christians.

3. 1st Corinthians 5 makes is abundantly clear that certain Christians shall be expelled from their communities. These include: liars, drunks, thieves, idol-worshipers, prostitutes, adulterers, and people who are greedy.

Once again, now word of this from my Christian teachers.

4. 1st Corinthians 14, 1st Peter 3, & 1st Timothy 2 makes it clear that women must remain silent at Church (it is a disgrace for them to speak), they must submit to their husband's will, they cannot teach men nor hold any authority over men, they cannot braid their hair, and they must not wear gold or pearls or expensive clothing.

5. 2nd Corinthians 7 makes it clear that Christians shall not associate with non-Christians.

Are the Christians here aware of all of these commandments and requirements of the followers of the Christian faith? How do they reconcile these commandments with their own lives in our modern society? Do they practice any of these regulations, and why only some and not all?

theprestige · 28th July 2011, 07:23 PM

Ironically, you're only preaching to the choir, here. I would recommend having a real conversation, with a real Christian, about your questions and concerns--ideally a Christian who has studied the Bible even more than you have. Chances are, if they've thought about their faith at all, they'll have had many of the same questions you do, and will share many of your same concerns.

Of course, you'll still get a wide range of responses. A liberal Episcopalian will assure you that none if it should be taken too seriously. And Heaven only knows what a bible-thumping bible-belt fundamentalist would have to say.

But in between, you're likely to find a lot of thoughtful Christians, who have taken the trouble to find thoughtful answers to your questions. Not for you, but for themselves. You may not be satisfied with their answers. They themselves may not be completely satisfied. But at least by talking to them, you'll be having a real conversation with a real person on the subject.

What about me, you're thinking? What about me is, on the Internet nobody knows I'm a dog.

Dayan81 · 28th July 2011, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Ironically, you're only preaching to the choir, here. I would recommend having a real conversation, with a real Christian, about your questions and concerns--ideally a Christian who has studied the Bible even more than you have. Chances are, if they've thought about their faith at all, they'll have had many of the same questions you do, and will share many of your same concerns...

I have considered this but am unsure how to construct such questions in a way that does not offend or insult.

theprestige · 28th July 2011, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

I have considered this but am unsure how to construct such questions in a way that does not offend or insult.

I know from experience that there are many Christians out there who would not take offense or insult at your questions. Find one of them, and you'll have found someone worth conversing with, about your questions and concerns.

By comparison, this forum is full of people who find the very idea of Christianity both offensive and insulting, and who address the subject on those terms. If offense and insult is not what you're looking for, you've brought your questions to the wrong people.

Ethnikos · 28th July 2011, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

Are the Christians here aware of all of these commandments and requirements of the followers of the Christian faith? How do they reconcile these commandments with their own lives in our modern society? Do they practice any of these regulations, and why only some and not all?

I for one am very much aware of these goings on described in Acts. Paul wanted access to Jerusalem and to the temple there to preach and also access to synagogues in the Diaspora for meetings. He had to cater to the wishes of the leaders in Jerusalem and act like he cared about the traditions of the Jews. He found a relatively innocuous ceremonial procedure to participate in as a gesture of his following of the accepted ways, which involved paying for the offering of doves to break an oath of the Nazarene type, by two young men.
Once Paul was done using the access to these venues as much as he thought was efficient for his mission, he broke ties with the remnant of law keeping which was of a Jewish nature.

Dayan81 · 28th July 2011, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

..Once Paul was done using the access to these venues as much as he thought was efficient for his mission, he broke ties with the remnant of law keeping which was of a Jewish nature.

But I see the prohibition against idolatry & eating foods involved in idolatry, in other books besides 1st Corinthians. Along with the prohibition against ingesting strangled animals and blood.

Edit: I have gone through the New Testament again. It appears that you are right, that Paul quickly seems to abandon any requirements he mentions in earlier preachings.

Strange.

Ethnikos · 28th July 2011, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

But I see the prohibition against idolatry & eating foods involved in idolatry, in other books besides 1st Corinthians. Along with the prohibition against ingesting strangled animals and blood.

You know I am on to you, right?
You are being paid as a sock puppet to come here and push the agenda for enforcement of the Noahide laws.
Paul does not prohibit it and says those with strong faith are not affected by anything they eat. Those with weak faith should probably refrain from anything not certified ok or whatever but it is not a law with Christians and was not enforced and Paul criticised people who worried about such things.
The Noahide laws are anti-Christian just like your name-sake.

Dayan81 · 28th July 2011, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

..Paul does not prohibit it and says those with strong faith are not affected by anything they eat. Those with weak faith should probably refrain from anything not certified ok or whatever but it is not a law with Christians and was not enforced and Paul criticised people who worried about such things.
The Noahide laws are anti-Christian just like your name-sake.

How are the Noahide Laws anti-Christian? These were laws established by God and given to Noah. They pre-date Christianity by several thousand years.

Ethnikos · 28th July 2011, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

How are the Noahide Laws anti-Christian? These were laws established by God and given to Noah. They pre-date Christianity by several thousand years.

Don't play stupid with me. You know that's a lie and there is no such thing and is a modern invention to subvert Christianity. That is it's goal and stated purpose by those who created it.

Dayan81 · 28th July 2011, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Don't play stupid with me. You know that's a lie and there is no such thing and is a modern invention to subvert Christianity. That is it's goal and stated purpose by those who created it.

I was wrong. The Noahide Laws comprise of the six laws given to Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden and a seventh law given to Noah after the flood. Thank you.

Tricky · 28th July 2011, 09:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

I have considered this but am unsure how to construct such questions in a way that does not offend or insult.

The easiest way is to simply show or read them the passage and ask innocently, "What does that mean?"

JJM 777 · 28th July 2011, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

First of all, I have been very often told by Christians that their faith in Christ is all that is required to be in God's favor.

The Bible does contain such a statement (too). "Man is saved by faith alone, without works." Elsewhere the Bible says that this and that and 50 other limitations do apply.

You mentioned many Bible verses which contain such requirements where the occasional Bible reader will face a choice: does this feel reasoable and confortable for me. If yes, it becomes a part of his belief system, what is the will of God. If not, he excuses himself by quoting some other Bible verse that releases him from the obligation.

Most Christians in the world have never even read most of the Bible, they are just members of the organization, and the organizations have long time ago noticed that getting members and keeping them is easiest if you focus on the "saved by faith alone" part, so people will feel that they get something for free, without having to sacrifice anything, so church membership becomes a good deal worth taking. In such circumstances, as the church follows a policy of political correctness and avoids defining too many restrictions which might cause their membership statistics to decline, for each church member the truth becomes whatever feels comfortable for them.

Such Christians are a small minority who actually try to follow the Bible precisely, everything what it says. But the Bible says so many things, in partially contradicting ways, that defining the correct answer to every question is impossile without subjectively choosing which possible interpretation of things said in the Bible is correct in each issue. Different persons do this subjective interpretation differently, which leads to various different versions of "Biblical faith", sects which often detest or outright hate each other, denying that some others, who claim to be true Christians, are Christians at all. Most notably, Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses are powerful and a bit weird sects which are viewed as no true believers by many other sects, and vice versa.

Fizzer · 29th July 2011, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

Are the Christians here aware of all of these commandments and requirements of the followers of the Christian faith? How do they reconcile these commandments with their own lives in our modern society? Do they practice any of these regulations, and why only some and not all?

Ask the next Jehovah's Witness who comes to your door about these things. They are very aware of them and attempt to live accordingly. They even publish a book called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" that talks about these sort of things that mainstream Christianity doesn't teach or contradicts with their own teaching.

Dayan81 · 29th July 2011, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Fizzer

Ask the next Jehovah's Witness who comes to your door about these things. They are very aware of them and attempt to live accordingly. They even publish a book called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" that talks about these sort of things that mainstream Christianity doesn't teach or contradicts with their own teaching.

Interesting. I thought Seventh-Day Adventists were the only Christians who did such things.

Delvo · 29th July 2011, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dayan81

First of all, I have been very often told by Christians that their faith in Christ is all that is required to be in God's favor. There are no deeds, nor commandments, nor works that can make God love you.

I grew up going to a Lutheran church every Sunday and attending that church's affiliated (and even physically attached) private school Monday through Friday until I was 11. The standard message there was that doing good deeds doesn't get you anywhere if you don't "accept" Jesus, but "accepting" Jesus causes one to do good deeds, so real Christians always have both sides of that coin anyway.

Originally Posted by Dayan81

they cannot eat an animal that was strangled, they cannot eat food that was part of an idol-worshiping religious ceremony, they cannot be sexually immoral and they cannot ingest blood.

I never heard of the first, second, or fourth items, but that could be just because those things already aren't ever done in our culture anyway, so there's nothing to warn us to avoid. The third item is something I was in fact told about, and one of the standard common complaints about Christianity is that it focuses on that one too much.

Originally Posted by Dayan81

Romans 13 makes it clear that all Earthly-authorities are ordained & accepted by God, and therefore we are all obligated to pay all taxes that are required of us and even to give respect to all figures of authority.

I was taught this and have never heard of a Christian organization that doesn't teach it.

Originally Posted by Dayan81

1st Corinthians 5 makes is abundantly clear that certain Christians shall be expelled from their communities.

I don't recall a specific list or verse reference, but my Christian elders would have loved to be able to somehow scoot people off somewhere far away for various violations comparable to what you listed. Similar attitudes about people somehow just not counting or not deserving decent treatment, for not being Christians or for doing un-Christian things, is quite common, even nearly universal, among Christians and Christian organizations, in my experience. For example, Christians hardly noticed at all when one of the advisers to the first President Bush said atheists aren't really, or shouldn't be, citizens, and when non-Christians brought it up, Christians have generally responded with either agreement or apathy about it and confusion about what the non-Christian who brought it up thinks is such a big deal. That kind of thinking is just perfectly normal to them.

Originally Posted by Dayan81

women must remain silent at Church (it is a disgrace for them to speak), they must submit to their husband's will, they cannot teach men nor hold any authority over men, they cannot braid their hair, and they must not wear gold or pearls or expensive clothing.

My church & school did teach the submission-to-husband thing, but the rest of these were never heard of. And silence in church would have been treated as a bad thing for anybody; when it was singing/reciting time, everybody was supposed to sing/recite.

Originally Posted by Dayan81

Christians shall not associate with non-Christians.

I never heard of it being treated as an order, but they certainly did seem motivated to try to avoid it as much as possible.

Dayan81 · 29th July 2011, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Delvo

I grew up going to a Lutheran church every Sunday and attending that church's affiliated (and even physically attached) private school Monday through Friday until I was 11. The standard message there was that doing good deeds doesn't get you anywhere if you don't "accept" Jesus, but "accepting" Jesus causes one to do good deeds, so real Christians always have both sides of that coin anyway....

Ahh, so you were actually taught that you would know a man's heart & faith by his deeds?

Now that is a Christian teaching that makes real sense.

I can't tell you how infuriating it is to here Christians argue that they can be jerks & bullies but are still more in God's favor than Jews because they believe in Jesus. Somehow, the teaching that one cannot be a jerk & a bully and still think they are faithful to Jesus, didn't get etched into the right stones.

When I was in Hebrew school I was taught a silly idea. I was taught that when we all die, we go before God and God has a book listing all of our deeds, good & bad. God will then weigh the good vs. the bad and decide what to do with us.

Yes it is silly but at least it teaches the concept that we are judged by our deeds & not just by our words and our supposed faith. If Christians are taught that God will know the honesty & integrity of our faith by our deeds, this is a great thing. I just wish Judaism would give more weight to those commandments that deal with our conduct between fellow men and not say that washing hands before a meal is as significant as not committing murder. This is where I think Christianity has a valid point.

Craig4 · 29th July 2011, 09:20 PM

The very simple reason is the Christians like all religious people pick and choose which parts of their beliefs they are going to follow. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc... all do the same thing. I don't any reason to get worked up over the fact that most Christians happened to discard this little bit of their religion over any other. It's not as if any of it is important anyway.

pthena · 30th July 2011, 12:16 AM

The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the 1st Jerusalem Council rules as given in Acts. The Seventh day Adventists take the ten words, commonly referred to as the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20 as an eternal law.

At first glance, that would seem to indicate that JW are more Christian than SDA. Some SDA are Trinitarian, I make no excuse for them. Others however accept the fact that the so-called 10 Commandments were given by an angel, and not by God himself. Moreover, they understand that angel as being the pre-existant, pre-incarnation Christ. Therefore by following the 10 Commandments they are following, they believe, the law of Christ.

There are very very few Christians today who understand as did the author of the letter to the Hebrews, commonly called Hebrews, that not only was the lawgiver an angel, and not God himself, but that Jesus is greater than the angel Yahweh and greater than Moses, who was the mediator often standing between the people and the vengeful angel quite willing to destroy the people many times over.

If the Christian sect that followed Hebrews exists today, I don't know the name of it. Yahwists are wrong for thinking an angel is God. Trinitarians are wrong for thinking an angel is the one Jesus meant by God and Father.

Craig4 · 30th July 2011, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by pthena

The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the 1st Jerusalem Council rules as given in Acts. The Seventh day Adventists take the ten words, commonly referred to as the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20 as an eternal law.

At first glance, that would seem to indicate that JW are more Christian than SDA. Some SDA are Trinitarian, I make no excuse for them. Others however accept the fact that the so-called 10 Commandments were given by an angel, and not by God himself. Moreover, they understand that angel as being the pre-existant, pre-incarnation Christ. Therefore by following the 10 Commandments they are following, they believe, the law of Christ.

There are very very few Christians today who understand as did the author of the letter to the Hebrews, commonly called Hebrews, that not only was the lawgiver an angel, and not God himself, but that Jesus is greater than the angel Yahweh and greater than Moses, who was the mediator often standing between the people and the vengeful angel quite willing to destroy the people many times over.

If the Christian sect that followed Hebrews exists today, I don't know the name of it. Yahwists are wrong for thinking an angel is God. Trinitarians are wrong for thinking an angel is the one Jesus meant by God and Father.

And all of them are wrong for believing in a fairy story.

Ethnikos · 30th July 2011, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by pthena

The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the 1st Jerusalem Council rules as given in Acts. The Seventh day Adventists take the ten words, commonly referred to as the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20 as an eternal law.

Thanks for clearing this up. Seventh Day Adventist hold a seventh day Sabbath versus a sacredness for Sunday which many Christians have. They believe that creating laws enforcing Sunday worship is antithetical to true worship of God. Some SDA's think Jesus was Jehovah or that Jehovah was God. Some think Jesus was Michael, the Archangel. SDA religion came from puritanical America where there was the belief in a "Christian Sabbath" and had lots of Blue Laws which were deemed Constitutional by the Supreme Court, twice, saying America recognizes a Christian Sabbath so any laws enacted and enforced by states regarding restrictions on said sabbath, are fine. I believe that the SDA emphasis was more a negative reaction to their current situation than trying to become in any way compliant with the keeping of the Law of Moses. That is rejected, along with the idea that proper sabbath keeping earns you points toward going to heaven. More that making a man made institution such as Sunday worship, sacred above the worship of God, is a sign of an improper affiliation with the very institutions of man that will be destroyed at the Second Coming.

dafydd · 30th July 2011, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ethnikos

Thanks for clearing this up. Seventh Day Adventist hold a seventh day Sabbath versus a sacredness for Sunday which many Christians have. They believe that creating laws enforcing Sunday worship is antithetical to true worship of God. Some SDA's think Jesus was Jehovah or that Jehovah was God. Some think Jesus was Michael, the Archangel. SDA religion came from puritanical America where there was the belief in a "Christian Sabbath" and had lots of Blue Laws which were deemed Constitutional by the Supreme Court, twice, saying America recognizes a Christian Sabbath so any laws enacted and enforced by states regarding restrictions on said sabbath, are fine. I believe that the SDA emphasis was more a negative reaction to their current situation than trying to become in any way compliant with the keeping of the Law of Moses. That is rejected, along with the idea that proper sabbath keeping earns you points toward going to heaven. More that making a man made institution such as Sunday worship, sacred above the worship of God, is a sign of an improper affiliation with the very institutions of man that will be destroyed at the Second Coming.

There was no first coming so there can't be a second one.

28th July 2011, 07:00 PM	#1
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Question for Christians Over the last several weeks I have been doing a decent amount of reading of the New Testament, and have found many passages that seem to be quite contrary to what I have been told about Christianity from the many Christians I have gotten to know over the years. First of all, I have been very often told by Christians that their faith in Christ is all that is required to be in God's favor. There are no deeds, nor commandments, nor works that can make God love you. Only faith in the risen Christ who suffered for our sins as the redeemer of all Mankind, can accomplish this. This is what I have been told for many years since I first started looking into Christianity in 1993. However, my readings in the New Testament have shown me things that are quite contrary to what I have been told. It turns out that New Testament actually does have more than a few commandments & requirements for its believers that must be followed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. For example: 1. The Council of Jerusalem made it clear that Christian men need not be circumcised. However, they cannot eat an animal that was strangled, they cannot eat food that was part of an idol-worshiping religious ceremony, they cannot be sexually immoral and they cannot ingest blood. I have never been told these things by Christians. 2. Romans 13 makes it clear that all Earthly-authorities are ordained & accepted by God, and therefore we are all obligated to pay all taxes that are required of us and even to give respect to all figures of authority. Again, I was never informed of such a requirement of Christians. 3. 1st Corinthians 5 makes is abundantly clear that certain Christians shall be expelled from their communities. These include: liars, drunks, thieves, idol-worshipers, prostitutes, adulterers, and people who are greedy. Once again, now word of this from my Christian teachers. 4. 1st Corinthians 14, 1st Peter 3, & 1st Timothy 2 makes it clear that women must remain silent at Church (it is a disgrace for them to speak), they must submit to their husband's will, they cannot teach men nor hold any authority over men, they cannot braid their hair, and they must not wear gold or pearls or expensive clothing. 5. 2nd Corinthians 7 makes it clear that Christians shall not associate with non-Christians. Are the Christians here aware of all of these commandments and requirements of the followers of the Christian faith? How do they reconcile these commandments with their own lives in our modern society? Do they practice any of these regulations, and why only some and not all?
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Last edited by Dayan81; 28th July 2011 at 07:03 PM.

28th July 2011, 07:23 PM	#2
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,888	Ironically, you're only preaching to the choir, here. I would recommend having a real conversation, with a real Christian, about your questions and concerns--ideally a Christian who has studied the Bible even more than you have. Chances are, if they've thought about their faith at all, they'll have had many of the same questions you do, and will share many of your same concerns. Of course, you'll still get a wide range of responses. A liberal Episcopalian will assure you that none if it should be taken too seriously. And Heaven only knows what a bible-thumping bible-belt fundamentalist would have to say. But in between, you're likely to find a lot of thoughtful Christians, who have taken the trouble to find thoughtful answers to your questions. Not for you, but for themselves. You may not be satisfied with their answers. They themselves may not be completely satisfied. But at least by talking to them, you'll be having a real conversation with a real person on the subject. What about me, you're thinking? What about me is, on the Internet nobody knows I'm a dog.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,888

28th July 2011, 07:27 PM	#3
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Originally Posted by theprestige Ironically, you're only preaching to the choir, here. I would recommend having a real conversation, with a real Christian, about your questions and concerns--ideally a Christian who has studied the Bible even more than you have. Chances are, if they've thought about their faith at all, they'll have had many of the same questions you do, and will share many of your same concerns... I have considered this but am unsure how to construct such questions in a way that does not offend or insult.
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450

28th July 2011, 08:06 PM	#4
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,888	Originally Posted by Dayan81 I have considered this but am unsure how to construct such questions in a way that does not offend or insult. I know from experience that there are many Christians out there who would not take offense or insult at your questions. Find one of them, and you'll have found someone worth conversing with, about your questions and concerns. By comparison, this forum is full of people who find the very idea of Christianity both offensive and insulting, and who address the subject on those terms. If offense and insult is not what you're looking for, you've brought your questions to the wrong people.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,888

28th July 2011, 08:20 PM	#5
Ethnikos Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 2,510	Originally Posted by Dayan81 Are the Christians here aware of all of these commandments and requirements of the followers of the Christian faith? How do they reconcile these commandments with their own lives in our modern society? Do they practice any of these regulations, and why only some and not all? I for one am very much aware of these goings on described in Acts. Paul wanted access to Jerusalem and to the temple there to preach and also access to synagogues in the Diaspora for meetings. He had to cater to the wishes of the leaders in Jerusalem and act like he cared about the traditions of the Jews. He found a relatively innocuous ceremonial procedure to participate in as a gesture of his following of the accepted ways, which involved paying for the offering of doves to break an oath of the Nazarene type, by two young men. Once Paul was done using the access to these venues as much as he thought was efficient for his mission, he broke ties with the remnant of law keeping which was of a Jewish nature.
	__________________ Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come. Last edited by Ethnikos; 28th July 2011 at 08:21 PM.

28th July 2011, 08:24 PM	#6
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Originally Posted by Ethnikos ..Once Paul was done using the access to these venues as much as he thought was efficient for his mission, he broke ties with the remnant of law keeping which was of a Jewish nature. But I see the prohibition against idolatry & eating foods involved in idolatry, in other books besides 1st Corinthians. Along with the prohibition against ingesting strangled animals and blood. Edit: I have gone through the New Testament again. It appears that you are right, that Paul quickly seems to abandon any requirements he mentions in earlier preachings. Strange.
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Last edited by Dayan81; 28th July 2011 at 08:32 PM.

28th July 2011, 08:31 PM	#7
Ethnikos Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 2,510	Originally Posted by Dayan81 But I see the prohibition against idolatry & eating foods involved in idolatry, in other books besides 1st Corinthians. Along with the prohibition against ingesting strangled animals and blood. You know I am on to you, right? You are being paid as a sock puppet to come here and push the agenda for enforcement of the Noahide laws. Paul does not prohibit it and says those with strong faith are not affected by anything they eat. Those with weak faith should probably refrain from anything not certified ok or whatever but it is not a law with Christians and was not enforced and Paul criticised people who worried about such things. The Noahide laws are anti-Christian just like your name-sake.
	__________________ Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come.

28th July 2011, 08:35 PM	#8
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Originally Posted by Ethnikos ..Paul does not prohibit it and says those with strong faith are not affected by anything they eat. Those with weak faith should probably refrain from anything not certified ok or whatever but it is not a law with Christians and was not enforced and Paul criticised people who worried about such things. The Noahide laws are anti-Christian just like your name-sake. How are the Noahide Laws anti-Christian? These were laws established by God and given to Noah. They pre-date Christianity by several thousand years.
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450

28th July 2011, 08:39 PM	#9
Ethnikos Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 2,510	Originally Posted by Dayan81 How are the Noahide Laws anti-Christian? These were laws established by God and given to Noah. They pre-date Christianity by several thousand years. Don't play stupid with me. You know that's a lie and there is no such thing and is a modern invention to subvert Christianity. That is it's goal and stated purpose by those who created it.
	__________________ Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come.

28th July 2011, 08:42 PM	#10
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Don't play stupid with me. You know that's a lie and there is no such thing and is a modern invention to subvert Christianity. That is it's goal and stated purpose by those who created it. I was wrong. The Noahide Laws comprise of the six laws given to Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden and a seventh law given to Noah after the flood. Thank you.
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450

28th July 2011, 09:14 PM	#11
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,403	Originally Posted by Dayan81 I have considered this but am unsure how to construct such questions in a way that does not offend or insult. The easiest way is to simply show or read them the passage and ask innocently, "What does that mean?"

28th July 2011, 09:59 PM	#12
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by Dayan81 First of all, I have been very often told by Christians that their faith in Christ is all that is required to be in God's favor. The Bible does contain such a statement (too). "Man is saved by faith alone, without works." Elsewhere the Bible says that this and that and 50 other limitations do apply. You mentioned many Bible verses which contain such requirements where the occasional Bible reader will face a choice: does this feel reasoable and confortable for me. If yes, it becomes a part of his belief system, what is the will of God. If not, he excuses himself by quoting some other Bible verse that releases him from the obligation. Most Christians in the world have never even read most of the Bible, they are just members of the organization, and the organizations have long time ago noticed that getting members and keeping them is easiest if you focus on the "saved by faith alone" part, so people will feel that they get something for free, without having to sacrifice anything, so church membership becomes a good deal worth taking. In such circumstances, as the church follows a policy of political correctness and avoids defining too many restrictions which might cause their membership statistics to decline, for each church member the truth becomes whatever feels comfortable for them. Such Christians are a small minority who actually try to follow the Bible precisely, everything what it says. But the Bible says so many things, in partially contradicting ways, that defining the correct answer to every question is impossile without subjectively choosing which possible interpretation of things said in the Bible is correct in each issue. Different persons do this subjective interpretation differently, which leads to various different versions of "Biblical faith", sects which often detest or outright hate each other, denying that some others, who claim to be true Christians, are Christians at all. Most notably, Catholic Church and Jehovah's Witnesses are powerful and a bit weird sects which are viewed as no true believers by many other sects, and vice versa.

29th July 2011, 04:04 PM	#13
Fizzer Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 175	Originally Posted by Dayan81 Are the Christians here aware of all of these commandments and requirements of the followers of the Christian faith? How do they reconcile these commandments with their own lives in our modern society? Do they practice any of these regulations, and why only some and not all? Ask the next Jehovah's Witness who comes to your door about these things. They are very aware of them and attempt to live accordingly. They even publish a book called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" that talks about these sort of things that mainstream Christianity doesn't teach or contradicts with their own teaching.
Fizzer Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 175

29th July 2011, 04:05 PM	#14
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Originally Posted by Fizzer Ask the next Jehovah's Witness who comes to your door about these things. They are very aware of them and attempt to live accordingly. They even publish a book called "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" that talks about these sort of things that mainstream Christianity doesn't teach or contradicts with their own teaching. Interesting. I thought Seventh-Day Adventists were the only Christians who did such things.
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450

29th July 2011, 08:17 PM	#15
Delvo Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Posts: 3,941	Originally Posted by Dayan81 First of all, I have been very often told by Christians that their faith in Christ is all that is required to be in God's favor. There are no deeds, nor commandments, nor works that can make God love you. I grew up going to a Lutheran church every Sunday and attending that church's affiliated (and even physically attached) private school Monday through Friday until I was 11. The standard message there was that doing good deeds doesn't get you anywhere if you don't "accept" Jesus, but "accepting" Jesus causes one to do good deeds, so real Christians always have both sides of that coin anyway. Originally Posted by Dayan81 they cannot eat an animal that was strangled, they cannot eat food that was part of an idol-worshiping religious ceremony, they cannot be sexually immoral and they cannot ingest blood. I never heard of the first, second, or fourth items, but that could be just because those things already aren't ever done in our culture anyway, so there's nothing to warn us to avoid. The third item is something I was in fact told about, and one of the standard common complaints about Christianity is that it focuses on that one too much. Originally Posted by Dayan81 Romans 13 makes it clear that all Earthly-authorities are ordained & accepted by God, and therefore we are all obligated to pay all taxes that are required of us and even to give respect to all figures of authority. I was taught this and have never heard of a Christian organization that doesn't teach it. Originally Posted by Dayan81 1st Corinthians 5 makes is abundantly clear that certain Christians shall be expelled from their communities. I don't recall a specific list or verse reference, but my Christian elders would have loved to be able to somehow scoot people off somewhere far away for various violations comparable to what you listed. Similar attitudes about people somehow just not counting or not deserving decent treatment, for not being Christians or for doing un-Christian things, is quite common, even nearly universal, among Christians and Christian organizations, in my experience. For example, Christians hardly noticed at all when one of the advisers to the first President Bush said atheists aren't really, or shouldn't be, citizens, and when non-Christians brought it up, Christians have generally responded with either agreement or apathy about it and confusion about what the non-Christian who brought it up thinks is such a big deal. That kind of thinking is just perfectly normal to them. Originally Posted by Dayan81 women must remain silent at Church (it is a disgrace for them to speak), they must submit to their husband's will, they cannot teach men nor hold any authority over men, they cannot braid their hair, and they must not wear gold or pearls or expensive clothing. My church & school did teach the submission-to-husband thing, but the rest of these were never heard of. And silence in church would have been treated as a bad thing for anybody; when it was singing/reciting time, everybody was supposed to sing/recite. Originally Posted by Dayan81 Christians shall not associate with non-Christians. I never heard of it being treated as an order, but they certainly did seem motivated to try to avoid it as much as possible.

29th July 2011, 09:08 PM	#16
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Originally Posted by Delvo I grew up going to a Lutheran church every Sunday and attending that church's affiliated (and even physically attached) private school Monday through Friday until I was 11. The standard message there was that doing good deeds doesn't get you anywhere if you don't "accept" Jesus, but "accepting" Jesus causes one to do good deeds, so real Christians always have both sides of that coin anyway.... Ahh, so you were actually taught that you would know a man's heart & faith by his deeds? Now that is a Christian teaching that makes real sense. I can't tell you how infuriating it is to here Christians argue that they can be jerks & bullies but are still more in God's favor than Jews because they believe in Jesus. Somehow, the teaching that one cannot be a jerk & a bully and still think they are faithful to Jesus, didn't get etched into the right stones. When I was in Hebrew school I was taught a silly idea. I was taught that when we all die, we go before God and God has a book listing all of our deeds, good & bad. God will then weigh the good vs. the bad and decide what to do with us. Yes it is silly but at least it teaches the concept that we are judged by our deeds & not just by our words and our supposed faith. If Christians are taught that God will know the honesty & integrity of our faith by our deeds, this is a great thing. I just wish Judaism would give more weight to those commandments that deal with our conduct between fellow men and not say that washing hands before a meal is as significant as not committing murder. This is where I think Christianity has a valid point.
Dayan81 Banned Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 450	Last edited by Dayan81; 29th July 2011 at 09:14 PM.

29th July 2011, 09:20 PM	#17
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,397	The very simple reason is the Christians like all religious people pick and choose which parts of their beliefs they are going to follow. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc... all do the same thing. I don't any reason to get worked up over the fact that most Christians happened to discard this little bit of their religion over any other. It's not as if any of it is important anyway.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,397

30th July 2011, 12:16 AM	#18
pthena New Blood Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: WA USA Posts: 12	The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the 1st Jerusalem Council rules as given in Acts. The Seventh day Adventists take the ten words, commonly referred to as the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20 as an eternal law. At first glance, that would seem to indicate that JW are more Christian than SDA. Some SDA are Trinitarian, I make no excuse for them. Others however accept the fact that the so-called 10 Commandments were given by an angel, and not by God himself. Moreover, they understand that angel as being the pre-existant, pre-incarnation Christ. Therefore by following the 10 Commandments they are following, they believe, the law of Christ. There are very very few Christians today who understand as did the author of the letter to the Hebrews, commonly called Hebrews, that not only was the lawgiver an angel, and not God himself, but that Jesus is greater than the angel Yahweh and greater than Moses, who was the mediator often standing between the people and the vengeful angel quite willing to destroy the people many times over. If the Christian sect that followed Hebrews exists today, I don't know the name of it. Yahwists are wrong for thinking an angel is God. Trinitarians are wrong for thinking an angel is the one Jesus meant by God and Father.

30th July 2011, 12:48 AM	#19
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,397	Originally Posted by pthena The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the 1st Jerusalem Council rules as given in Acts. The Seventh day Adventists take the ten words, commonly referred to as the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20 as an eternal law. At first glance, that would seem to indicate that JW are more Christian than SDA. Some SDA are Trinitarian, I make no excuse for them. Others however accept the fact that the so-called 10 Commandments were given by an angel, and not by God himself. Moreover, they understand that angel as being the pre-existant, pre-incarnation Christ. Therefore by following the 10 Commandments they are following, they believe, the law of Christ. There are very very few Christians today who understand as did the author of the letter to the Hebrews, commonly called Hebrews, that not only was the lawgiver an angel, and not God himself, but that Jesus is greater than the angel Yahweh and greater than Moses, who was the mediator often standing between the people and the vengeful angel quite willing to destroy the people many times over. If the Christian sect that followed Hebrews exists today, I don't know the name of it. Yahwists are wrong for thinking an angel is God. Trinitarians are wrong for thinking an angel is the one Jesus meant by God and Father. And all of them are wrong for believing in a fairy story.
Craig4 Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 5,397

30th July 2011, 07:31 AM	#20
Ethnikos Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: USA Posts: 2,510	Originally Posted by pthena The Jehovah's Witnesses follow the 1st Jerusalem Council rules as given in Acts. The Seventh day Adventists take the ten words, commonly referred to as the 10 commandments as written in Exodus 20 as an eternal law. Thanks for clearing this up. Seventh Day Adventist hold a seventh day Sabbath versus a sacredness for Sunday which many Christians have. They believe that creating laws enforcing Sunday worship is antithetical to true worship of God. Some SDA's think Jesus was Jehovah or that Jehovah was God. Some think Jesus was Michael, the Archangel. SDA religion came from puritanical America where there was the belief in a "Christian Sabbath" and had lots of Blue Laws which were deemed Constitutional by the Supreme Court, twice, saying America recognizes a Christian Sabbath so any laws enacted and enforced by states regarding restrictions on said sabbath, are fine. I believe that the SDA emphasis was more a negative reaction to their current situation than trying to become in any way compliant with the keeping of the Law of Moses. That is rejected, along with the idea that proper sabbath keeping earns you points toward going to heaven. More that making a man made institution such as Sunday worship, sacred above the worship of God, is a sign of an improper affiliation with the very institutions of man that will be destroyed at the Second Coming.
	__________________ Matthew 18:7 Woe to the world because of stumbling blocks! It is necessary that stumbling blocks come, but woe to the person through whom they come. Last edited by Ethnikos; 30th July 2011 at 07:34 AM.

30th July 2011, 07:42 AM	#21
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,680	Originally Posted by Ethnikos Thanks for clearing this up. Seventh Day Adventist hold a seventh day Sabbath versus a sacredness for Sunday which many Christians have. They believe that creating laws enforcing Sunday worship is antithetical to true worship of God. Some SDA's think Jesus was Jehovah or that Jehovah was God. Some think Jesus was Michael, the Archangel. SDA religion came from puritanical America where there was the belief in a "Christian Sabbath" and had lots of Blue Laws which were deemed Constitutional by the Supreme Court, twice, saying America recognizes a Christian Sabbath so any laws enacted and enforced by states regarding restrictions on said sabbath, are fine. I believe that the SDA emphasis was more a negative reaction to their current situation than trying to become in any way compliant with the keeping of the Law of Moses. That is rejected, along with the idea that proper sabbath keeping earns you points toward going to heaven. More that making a man made institution such as Sunday worship, sacred above the worship of God, is a sign of an improper affiliation with the very institutions of man that will be destroyed at the Second Coming. There was no first coming so there can't be a second one.