Merged: Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[Patrick1000]

On the evening of 07/20/1969, Neil Armstrong and Edwin Aldrin allegedly piloted the LM Eagle, to what was to become the renown "Tranquility Base".

Breach of rule 4 removed. Do not copy and paste material from elsewhere.

Posted By:Cuddles

[EventHorizon]

I like alternate history; it's one of my favorite genres of fiction. Where can I pick up your book? Is it in stores?

[Patrick1000]

"Though you would seek to unsphere the stars with oaths,"

William Shakespeare, from The Winter's Tale

Breach of rule 4 removed.

Posted By:Cuddles

[timhau]

Walls of text just rule!

[GlennB]

Never mind. Just saw your second post.

[EventHorizon]

Originally Posted by GlennB

If the landings were faked then clearly these laser-dudes had to be part of the conspiracy.

So why didn't they just fake success with the laser thing instead of giving people like you 'evidence' of fakery.

D'uh.

Because wall of text. Duh.

[Greedo]

Err, I think it's fair to say

TL,DR

[EventHorizon]

Originally Posted by Greedo

Err, I think it's fair to say

TL,DR

Not for me.

TS,R8

Too short - read it 8 times.

I hope he's got more of 'em.

[Mouldy Cheeses]

I had an eccentric aunt.. (well ..who didnt have one? ) ..who belived the moon was made of phosphorous ... thats why it glowed at night. She said the americans wanted to get to the moon to get the phosphorus.

I made the mistake of asking her the reason they wanted the phosphorous .. "the reply .. "To make bombs! The used phosphorous in bombs in WW2 and they want the phosphorous for bigger bombs in WW3"


So there you have it folks, straight from between granny's dentures..

[ApolloGnomon]

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/inde...ay&thread=3203

Same exact thread title

Geez. Are we done yet? I've been thinking of changing my user name to something topical on a different subject, but this mindless nonsense won't go away.

[MRC_Hans]

Patrick1000: Use your fine command of language to write short, concise posts. It is not that we can't read long texts, but we need to know if it is worth the time to do so.

Hans

[Obviousman]

I would have made some of the text different colour, to make it pleasing to the eye.

I wonder if the poster is being paid by the word?

[sts60]

Fattydash, what is your opinion of people who lie when they accept the TOS while registering sock-puppets?

Also, since you claim that some inconsistencies must mean the whole thing was a fraud, what are we to make of the way you kept changing your story over on AH? ETA: and now we see that you've changed your story yet again. Why can't you keep your story straight?

Also, what are you today? A doctor, an engineer, or something else?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Does anyone wanna break the news to this guy about the russians and the three radio receivers thing, or do we wanna watch him squirm for a while?

[erlando]

[[citation seriously needed]]

[sts60]

Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth

Does anyone wanna break the news to this guy about the russians and the three radio receivers thing, or do we wanna watch him squirm for a while?

Don't bother. He's spammed this same drivel under multiple sock-puppet handles on both apollohoax and Bad Astronomy. He's changed his story multiple times as his errors and inconsistencies were exposed, and is apparently in love with the sound of his own voice, er, keyboard.

Read the apollohoax thread linked above if you want the extended dance remix. Or just wait and he'll re-spam it all here.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Originally Posted by sts60

Read the apollohoax thread linked above if you want the extended dance remix.

Can I just light my hair on fire and pay someone to put it out with a sledgehammer instead?

[MRC_Hans]

I realize this guy is likely a troll, but let's look at his claim:

The basic claim when you strip off all the word salad is really this:

Facts:

Apollo 11 did not land in the exact planned spot.
In consequence, a group trying to make a laser ranging to the retro-reflector placed by the Apollo 11 team, failed to find the reflector.
Without establishing their actual position, the Apollo team could not have reconnected with the command module.

Claims:

The above mentioned laser ranging team apparently did not get a precise update on the position.
So Apollo 11 is a hoax.

Rebuttals

1) Of course the whole claim requires a huge leap of faith. Just because some team failed to catch a laser reflector it makes no sense to conclude some huge conspiracy.

2) There may be a number of reasons why the laser team did not get the updated position: Maybe NASA forgot/didn't bother to tell them; maybe there was an error in the transferred info (remember, this was before the age of e-mails, so such info would be transferred with telex, phone or the like), maybe something else went wrong.

3) Even if they did get the updated info, obtaining a laser return is not a simple matter. The laser beam, when it reaches the moon, is only about 4 miles wide, so actually hitting the laser corresponds to aiming a rifle to hit a dime 2 miles array. Finally the light that can be detected back on earth is just a few photons. So even if they did get a return, they mat easily have missed it.

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_L...ing_experiment

Hans

[SezMe]

Man, BAC is gonna be jealous when he sees post #3.

[Erock]

I followed that whole thing at apollohoax. It was quite odd. There was one post he did that was half a book, made the one above look positively sparse

For those who can't be bothered to read his posts, and who can blame you....


He is saying that because the LICK team setting up the laser ranging were given a precise co-ordinate before Apollo 11 got back to Earth, it means the whole thing was fake, since they didn't have a precise co-ordinate.

That is wrong, they had numerous co-ordinates, the most accurate one being probably the reconstructed accelerometer readings. This turned out to be the actual correct placement.


He then took the NOUN 76 readings from the AGC and converted them to Lat and Long and determined they are wrong.

The NOUN 76 readings correspond to velocities, so that is why they would be wrong. He actually patted himself on the back in triumph as he did this, praising his detective and maths skills


All explained on this page...

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/inde...d=3203&page=36


That's basically it. There's also lots of huffing and puffing about rendezvous and stuff, and an uncanny fixation with Jay Windley.

[PhantomWolf]

Hmmm, I am getting the strangest feelings of Deja vu. I wonder if the smell of socks is going to start wafting about here too.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Hmmm, I am getting the strangest feelings of Deja vu. I wonder if the smell of socks is going to start wafting about here too.

Concur, but that must mean that I've got Deja^Deja vu...

[Patrick1000]

STARS OF KRYPTONITE

AND

THE LOST BIRD OF MOON BASE 00 41 15 23 26 00

As touched upon above, viewing Apollo through the prism of the "Lost Bird" metaphor, obviates the need to address that which in isolation can never be satisfactorily addressed by either side, those impossible questions regarding "fake" photos, telemetry authenticity, "lunar rock" origins and so forth.

Stop posting copy and paste walls of text.

Posted By:LashL

[twinstead]

Uh, so if it was faked, why didn't they just fake finding the astronauts' location on the surface of the moon?

[MRC_Hans]

Bah. Welcome to my ignore list, Patrick1000.

Hans

[matt.tansy]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

Meaning: If they were far off Eagle's location, a successful rendezvous would require some quick and accurate throttling up or down to thread the needle properly tricky work at 5,000 miles per hour.

Comments like this prove you know nothing about orbital mechanics.

"thread the needle"? From lift-off to docking took 4 hours of leisurely playing catch-up.

[DC]

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[Patrick1000]

STARS OF KRYPTONITE

AND

THE LOST BIRD OF MOON BASE 00 41 15 23 26 00


They did fake finding the astronauts' location on the surface of the moon. I'll prove it to you here Twinstead. First off, I want to encourage you to check all of my references both in my post above and in this post.

As above, H. David Read, the launch FIDO, emphasized that not only were the landing site coordinates available to him way off accuracy wise, but in addition, the many methods employed gave results at great variance from one another. Please read my quote from his piece above again. The landing site determinations made by the various methods were so much at variance that Reed paid no attention to any of them and used the rendezvous radar to find Collins one orbit early, and by running a rendezvous radar program in reverse, he found the Eagle.

Where did H. David Reed find the Eagle? If one looks at the Apollo 11 Mission report, and keep in mind Twinstead, this is a NASA official document, we see on Table 5-IV under the heading, LUNAR LANDING COORDINATES, that Reed's employment of the rendezvous radar yielded a north coordinate of 0.636, and an east coordinate of 23.50. The radius is given as 937.13

We convert the coordinates above into the "more familiar", at least more familiar as regards a discussion of Tranquility Base, 00 38 10 north and 23 30 00 east.

Now the Landing Coordinate chart footnotes indicate to translate from radar trajectory coordinate to grid we add 2' 25" to the north coordinate and subtract 4 17" from the east coordinate. This gives us, a rendezvous radar H.David Reed calculation of 00 40 35 north and 23 25 43 east. Very close to the official coordinates for Tranquility base that they gave to the Lick Observatory people earlier on.

Poor H. David Reed. Wasn't he played for a chump? Remember what he told us about his being told that all of the different methods of coordinate determination gave different results? Well, take a look for yourself Twinstead at the chart referred to above.
It lists; primary guidance coordinates as 0.649 north, 23.46 east
abort guidance as 0.639 north and 23.44 east
powered flight processor as 0.631 north and 23.47 east
alignment optical telescope as 0.523 north and 23.42 east
trajectory accelerometer as 0.647 north and 23.505 east
photography/maps as 0.647 north and 23.505 east

Let's convert these to the other form with the exception of the alignment optical scope.
We get for the Eagle's coordinates; 00 41 24 north and 23 23 19 east
00 40 59 north and 23 22 07 east
00 40 16 north and 23 23 55 east
00 41 14 north and 23 26 01 east

WOW! is all I can say. With the exception of the alignment optical telescope' 0.523 north coordinate value, contrary to what H. David Reed was told, all of the methods gave similar results. Not only that, but given the lunar module targeted coordinates of 0.691 north and 23.72 east, or equivalently,
00 41 28 north and 23 37 55 east. They wound up in their imaginary scenario by every method employed in calculation remarkably close to the targeted north coordinate and several miles west of the targeted east coordinate.

As H. David Reed was told, but it most decidedly is not the case, that none of these number sets matched up with one another, and that moreover none of these number sets were close to his rendezvous radar calculated 00 40 35 north and 23 25 43 we conclude either David Reed is making up his story, or NASA is. As I have no good reason to suppose David Reed to be lying about this, I clearly see now that NASA is. Indeed, this chart is fabricated, must be to show a feigned consistency amoung the calculation methods. No one ever thought a jerk like me would follow up on this and check everyone's facts. No one ever imagined H. David Reed would write such a wonderful little essay that ultimately provides proof positive that the Apollo charade is over boys and girls.

Check the numbers and references for yourselves.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Oh no--another wall of text following a yellow card!

[Patrick1000]

STARS OF KRYPTONITE

AND

THE LOST BIRD OF MOON BASE 00 41 15 23 26 00



As touched upon above, viewing Apollo through the prism of the "Lost Bird" metaphor, obviates the need to address that which in isolation can never be satisfactorily addressed by either side, those impossible questions regarding "fake" photos, telemetry authenticity, "lunar rock" origins and so forth. The Lost Bird argument is one based on our examining the consistency of the official narrative, what I like to refer to as the narrative's internal coherence. Because the tale told by NASA is indeed a tale of robust internal incoherence, we come to sadly, but nevertheless comfortably as regards our certainty, know Apollo to be the oh so very "untrue" story which it is. We become free to move on with clear heads and examine the rocks and the photos and the astro-actors in the appropriately artificial lighting of the theater in which this very bad play was concocted. Of course the stones and images and telemetry are important, but we'll never find truth by way of our interrogating these pieces of evidence.

The Apollo debate has long been mired in a soupy space where nothing ever can really be settled. We the curious sit in a sort of knowledge purgatory where one side cries, "What about the rocks!" and the other's rejoinder is, "Well, what about them?". Each side in the debate views the opposition as beginning from an entrenched position of begging the question. The photos are authentic because the astronauts really did land on the moon. Any perceived bogusness can and is explained away rather handily, at least in the opinion of some official story apologists. In contradistinction, for the guys and gals on the other side, the photos are so obviously phony one wants to flat out scream, if not vomit in shear disgust. For these individuals, who with nothing less than utter metaphysical certainty KNOW Apollo is charade not science, there is plenty there to see in support of reading the pictures as contrived. Just look you blind buffoon!

[elbe]

What does kryptonite have to do with anything? Did superman help them get to the moon?

[Erock]

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

Oh no--another wall of text following a yellow card!

I foresee a ban and sock coming. With the same socks from proxy servers and new emails as per apollohoax.net.


Fattydash100, did you or did you not, make a mistake with interpreting the NOUN 76 display?

If you insist otherwise, explain the readings from other missions that are very similar, yet landed in different areas. I'll quote them for you if need be.

[Patrick1000]

elbe, starlight is Apollo astronaut kryptonite. They fear it, deny it, run from it, pretend it does not exist. Perhaps best said not starlight per se, but their fear of it, the astronauts pretenses as regards to it, has become their undoing. It lead me to the above sited gross inconsistency between NASA's "official story" and that of their own FIDO/trajectory specialist, David Reed. It leads to many other inconsistencies as well. Oh what a tangled web........

[Patrick1000]

Erock, I have read that post. Noun 76 has nothing to do with position. 76 refers to a target delta V program. The meat of the Lost Bird inconsistencies has to do with the FIDO's account of what went on. Appeals to the voice transcript is not needed. What you have here is a guy saying flat out that NASA lied and not just any guy, their most valued launch FIDO. The Apollo debate is over Erock. Look at the references for yourself. I feel as bad now as you will soon enough. Better to read em' now and face the music. We may as well pull the plug on those clowns since we need the cash for other things anyway.

[DC]

all the wall of texts are debunked by one little link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_L...ing_experiment

[matt.tansy]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

It lists; primary guidance coordinates as 0.649 north, 23.46 east
abort guidance as 0.639 north and 23.44 east
powered flight processor as 0.631 north and 23.47 east
alignment optical telescope as 0.523 north and 23.42 east
trajectory accelerometer as 0.647 north and 23.505 east
photography/maps as 0.647 north and 23.505 east

You're using minor position discrepancies as evidence of a hoax?

Have you converted those coordinate differences into miles? Tell us what they are.

[Patrick1000]

DC, just because there is a LRRR on the moon at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east does not mean Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin put it there. Get a grip, use a little common sense.

Here is a quote from the man who targeted the laser on the evening of 07/20/1969, Remington Stone;

"We took a break to watch Neil Armstrong’s historic first step event on TV, a thrill shared by all present.
After the PR opportunity, the astronauts began to place science experiments out on the moon's surface. The first such experiment was our retroreflector, an array of 100 beautiful corner cube prisms, cut so as to return any inbound light exactly back to the source.
The Retroreflector array is seen here about 1/3 from the left edge of this photo, between the flag and Lunar Expedition Module. The astronaut in the foreground is now placing a seismograph on the lunar surface
It seemed then as if we were all set, but we still needed to know exactly where on the moon the astronauts were. As the laser beam diameter at the moon was only about two miles, we had to be able to point fairly accurately. The lunar module, under manual control in order to avoid some rough terrain, had not been landed exactly where planned. The astronauts soon determined their precise location on the moon and radioed that information to Mission Control in Houston. Later that evening, Joe Wampler spoke with Mission Control to obtain the coordinates for the actual landing site. I was sitting next to him as he stood at the night assistant's desk in the 3m control room, upon which he had a large scale moon map spread out. I heard Joe repeat back the coordinates three times in order to be absolutely certain he had them correct. Then, with the spot carefully marked on the map, we pointed the telescope to that exact lunar location and started firing a laser at it - scientific history in the making!."

You may find this well written first person account by Remington Stone of the events transpiring at Lick Observatory on the night of the landing at the University of California Observatories Web site. I suggest if you care to understand Apollo you look outside Wikipedia as a reference DC.

So if Mr. Stone got the EXACT! Tranquility Base coordinates on the evening of 07/20/1969; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, why was poor H. David Reed so confused on the morning of 07/21/1969. Didn't anyone think to tell him the coordinates it would seem "some guy" had inside NASA. A quote from Reed the Apollo program's most talented trajectory officer/FIDO;

"I sat down at the console for that prelaunch shift and was debriefed by the previous team to complete hand-off. I probably had my second cup of coffee by then and got on the loop to SELECT to get the best landing site. I remember asking SELECT what he had for landing site coordinates. I’ll never forget his answer when he said, “take your pick FIDO!” I also remember not reacting too positively to his offer. He explained that we had five different sites. He said “we have MSFN(tracking radars), PNGS (primary LM guidance computer), AGS(backup LM guidance computer), the targeted landing site and, oh yes, the geologist have determined yet another site based upon the crew’s description of the landscape and correlating that with orbiter photos”. No two of these were even close to each other."

[Patrick1000]

For matt, no, just the opposite. I wrote in a post removed due to excessive length, a wall it was called, that the launch FIDO was clearly informed by his SELECT officer that NONE of the coordinates were anywhere close to one another. Above I pointed out in the Mission Report the coordinates are exceedingly close. Ergo, David Reed the FIDO or NASA is making up their side of the story. I say it is NASA as Reed has no reason to lie. For NASA, the reasons are as countless as the stars themselves. Look at Reed's writing and the Mission Report for yourself Matt. Ask your doc to premeditate you before you start in. I had to. It's nauseating to read this stuff for the first time.

[elbe]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

elbe, starlight is Apollo astronaut kryptonite. They fear it, deny it, run from it, pretend it does not exist. Perhaps best said not starlight per se, but their fear of it, the astronauts pretenses as regards to it, has become their undoing.

I'm not sure all those sentences made sense.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

DC, just because there is a LRRR on the moon at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east does not mean Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin put it there. Get a grip, use a little common sense.

Here is a quote from the man who targeted the laser on the evening of 07/20/1969, Remington Stone;

"We took a break to watch Neil Armstrong’s historic first step event on TV, a thrill shared by all present.
After the PR opportunity, the astronauts began to place science experiments out on the moon's surface. The first such experiment was our retroreflector, an array of 100 beautiful corner cube prisms, cut so as to return any inbound light exactly back to the source.
The Retroreflector array is seen here about 1/3 from the left edge of this photo, between the flag and Lunar Expedition Module. The astronaut in the foreground is now placing a seismograph on the lunar surface
It seemed then as if we were all set, but we still needed to know exactly where on the moon the astronauts were. As the laser beam diameter at the moon was only about two miles, we had to be able to point fairly accurately. The lunar module, under manual control in order to avoid some rough terrain, had not been landed exactly where planned. The astronauts soon determined their precise location on the moon and radioed that information to Mission Control in Houston. Later that evening, Joe Wampler spoke with Mission Control to obtain the coordinates for the actual landing site. I was sitting next to him as he stood at the night assistant's desk in the 3m control room, upon which he had a large scale moon map spread out. I heard Joe repeat back the coordinates three times in order to be absolutely certain he had them correct. Then, with the spot carefully marked on the map, we pointed the telescope to that exact lunar location and started firing a laser at it - scientific history in the making!."

You may find this well written first person account by Remington Stone of the events transpiring at Lick Observatory on the night of the landing at the University of California Observatories Web site. I suggest if you care to understand Apollo you look outside Wikipedia as a reference DC.

So if Mr. Stone got the EXACT! Tranquility Base coordinates on the evening of 07/20/1969; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, why was poor H. David Reed so confused on the morning of 07/21/1969. Didn't anyone think to tell him the coordinates it would seem "some guy" had inside NASA. A quote from Reed the Apollo program's most talented trajectory officer/FIDO;

"I sat down at the console for that prelaunch shift and was debriefed by the previous team to complete hand-off. I probably had my second cup of coffee by then and got on the loop to SELECT to get the best landing site. I remember asking SELECT what he had for landing site coordinates. I’ll never forget his answer when he said, “take your pick FIDO!” I also remember not reacting too positively to his offer. He explained that we had five different sites. He said “we have MSFN(tracking radars), PNGS (primary LM guidance computer), AGS(backup LM guidance computer), the targeted landing site and, oh yes, the geologist have determined yet another site based upon the crew’s description of the landscape and correlating that with orbiter photos”. No two of these were even close to each other."

i really don't care at all.
i think there just is no way that the commis would have played along, and they surely checked if they flew to the moon.

but i like Moon hoaxing fantasies, i just love when they say Astronots.