Merged: Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

[sts60]

Patrick1000/fattydash/BFischer/BSpassky/Sicilian/mvinson/piersquared/etc. is also not a very competent liar. The root cause is the same thing that makes him a bad writer; he never knows when to stop talking, and thus inevitably contradicts himself.

First, posting on BAUT as "Sicilian" (a sock puppet of BFischer, DoctorTea, BSpassky, etc.; he even admits to some of the sock-puppetry):

Originally Posted by Patrick1000/fattydash/Sicilian/etc.

I work with BFischer, aka DrTea. We are both night docs at the same institutuion.

So he's a night doctor...

After getting banned in all his sock-puppet incarnations there, he then begins posting as "fattydash" over on apollohoax...
« Reply #390 on Jul 15, 2011, 9:21pm [EDT] »

Originally Posted by Patrick1000/fattydash

...Good morning to all, typically I would sleep now. I have been up for 15 hours working in a hospital...

...Except (note the posting time above) he works during the day...

After getting banned again over on apollohoax, he brings the act over here...

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

...The "fattydash" posts were written by a GROUP of individuals, most of whom are

members of a chess club. 4 or 5 are San Francisco based physicians, as am I.
...I was born, raised and live in San Francisco ...

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

I am a general hospitalist,....

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

Believe it or not, I really am a writer. Well, we all are writers, but I do it as a job sometimes, whether freelance or other things. I'll be writing some medical reports for the United Nations. ... I began writing medical stuff as an epidemiological statistician...

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

I have been on Sabbatical from one of my jobs and had time, but now must return to work. I won't do any of this stuff away from home. I pass my free time reading and playing chess. This activity is a tad stressful, not to my liking when I am writing...

So he's a night doctor who works during the day, but he's a writer who's actively writing right now - meaning he's on sabbatical from his job as a doctor, where he's been busy practicing during the day as a night doctor. Got it?

Now, the Stundielicious part:

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

Wouldn't you like to know about my job(s). Betcha' you'd think I was pretty cool then. No way I'm telling...

Good thing he didn't tell us before, then, what his pretend job is. But if he doesn't want to tell us what convenience store he clerks at, or which all-night drive-through window he staffs, that's his perogative.

And, after posting for over 12 hours how he's going to catch a flight from his San Francisco home, but he didn't make the flight out:

4:42 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

You have NO idea where I even am now.

Umm, wild guess - San Francisco? (Allegedly.)

ETA: Since he keeps saying he lives in San Francisco, given his problems with telling the truth, it's not at all hard to believe that's just as much a fiction as his age and alleged professions.

[drewid]

Don't forgwt he was also a radar technician/engineer over on Baut, where he posted as Highgain.

[sts60]

OK, this was absolutely pointless, but in a bizarre way fun to do; it's like performance art. Each italicized timestamp represents a different post by the socktor.

Thursday, 11:14 AM EDT
...Anyway, I'll be in India for a month working. You guys are off the hook for a while. But I can hear your sweat drops hit the ground from our airport here....
Clock is ticking, I am back in a month. ...
See ya' in September, my bird is calling. Hope they know how to figure out the landing coordinates for Delhi...
11:41 AM
...Couldn't resist this one last one before I step on the plane...
11:55 AM
...Gotta' run.
12:13 PM
OH Red tail, you'll make me late for my flight. But since you insist. ...
...My curry awaits. BYE!!!!!!
3:09 PM
...I have an hour to board...
3:41 PM
Time for one last one ...
3:53 PM
Has to be my last one D or I really will miss my plane.
4:33 PM
...See you too in a month...
5:10 PM
India via Europe, flight delayed,...
9:48 PM
...Knew you kids would be happy to hear from me one more time. I won't bore you with the details, but almost had to stay another day and not leave 'til tomorrow, but that's all changed. ...
Zoom zoom zoom, I'm off!
Friday, 12:31 AM EDT (Thurs 9:31 PM PDT)
...I did think I was getting out of town. Still, you guys are off the hook. I need to sleep, will try to get outta' here tomorrow...
12:44 AM
1:08 AM
I suggest you not worry about my flight cuz' who knows, maybe I'll get a job writing the first report focusing on the dismantlement of Apollo...
OH WELL,............Gdnight.
1:12 AM... 1:14 AM... 1:16 AM... 1:18 AM... 1:22 AM... 1:23 AM...
4:15 AM... 4:34 AM...
4:36 AM
Originally Posted by SezMe
Airline and Flight Number please.
Still here Sez, you'll get rid of me soon enough
"How can I miss you if you won't go away?"
and to be frank, i 'll be glad to have a break.
"Stop me before I post again!"
4:36 AM
So sleepy now.
4:39 AM... 4:42 AM... 4:47 AM... 4:52 AM... 4:54 AM... 4:56 AM... 5:10 AM...
7:42 AM... 745 AM...
8:17 AM...
9:39 AM... 9:41 AM...
10:01AM
If I don't post again. thanks, really mean it. I'll be back, perhaps later today, but definitely gone for some time tomorrow and into sept.. Good luck, see ya' when I return , assuming no more time for posting today.
10:18 AM
Ciao
11:20 AM
I am going... Will be back I imagine, though to be honest, I am far from sure... Anyway, ciao bro!...
11:27 AM
Hopefully, I 'll come back, but to be honest, I have so much to do now away from this stuff,....
11:47 AM
...I'll end there. I must sleep a bit. Gdbye ApolloGnomon. Perhaps I shall return. ...
12:05 PM
I will pass out now. Wish I could write more, but need rest and then off.
12:06 PM... 12:16 PM...
12:17 PM
Bye everybody!!!
12:45 PM
Last comment to you Redtail...
12:57 PM...


It's now two hours later with no more words of wisdom from our socktor. I guess the Red Bull crash must have set in.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by sts60

It's now two hours later with no more words of wisdom from our socktor. I guess the Red Bull crash must have set in.

His longest dry spell in the last 24 hours was 4 hours long, so he can still pop in.

It seems to me that Patrick1000 is 1a) pulling a drug- or energy drink-fueled all-nighter for no apparent reason other than to chat with us, 1b) is having a dangerously unhealthy episode of an obsessive-compulsive disorder, or 2) is actually more than one person.

I wonder, if we bothered to waste our time plotting his posts since he joined, could we find a period of time that would account for even a less-than-average night's sleep?

(I know, mods, that I shouldn't be focusing on the poster, but we may be dealing with someone who has a problem that could be very detrimental to his well-being. His very clear memory issues may be the result of sleep deprivation. That, or the account is in violation of the Membership Agreement.)

[phunk]

sts60: you missed when he said "I am boarding now" at 3:36.

So his flight was cancelled after it had begun boarding.

[sts60]

Other than for amusement, the only reason for posting the above is that he has repeatedly appealed to inconsistencies, slung so many accusations of lies, and said the former implies the latter. Glass houses, etc.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by phunk

sts60: you missed when he said "I am boarding now" at 3:36.

So his flight was cancelled after it had begun boarding.

Oops. That's really a little disturbing

[sts60]

Actually, that happened to me once. Mr. Wing, meet Mr. Food Service Truck.

[Redtail]

I'm just waiting for him to sign up under a sock & refer to himself in the wrong alias.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

You may ignore the point , or pretend not to mind, or pretend you are "above it all" Matt when you do not engage me substantivekly when I bring a matter such as this up.

You may believe you fool the casual reader, but you should be aware that others notice you avoiding. I it s OK AND the pity is , you might be proven "correct" if you cared to give it a try at countering me, but you pretend to see my view as almost beneath you.

Matt as you sit idly by, I present my side in great detail for all to read and see, right or wrong. You do your self an injustice. Here are my "walls of writing" as you call them, and some people find the writing persuasive. Whether or not it proves correct, well that is yet to be determined. But I present much as you do nothing.

It is not here nor there so much for me as I will continue on, but you should try. For your own sake. It is not so hard Matt and it is very worthwhile. anyway, that is what I think. Hate to see you pretend to not care.

Patrick if it was all scripted then why would there be any confusion about the coordinates?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

I do not know how important my position was after all ApolloGnomon. Perhaps when I return I will write an essay about Apollo. My friends encouraged me to do one, so I may. But I got out of this what I needed. Not that the "truth" isn't important, but more important to realize when you are and are not a jerk and I was a jerk to X, so hope I learned. that may not make sense to you, but I dare say I am a little older, maybe not, but probably. Not that age is wisdom, but it changes things. So what if they did or did not walk on the moon? By so what I mean what happened between me and X was more important in my life and I botched it. So if I learn from that, hope I did, then Apollo one way or the other is much less important.

That said, I imagine when I return I will "look" for more evidence of foreknowledge. That is my original idea and it is a good one. If Apollo is FRAUD, and I do not know if it is or is not, but if it is, this is the way to attack it. I say this because for your side, the rocks, the photos, the trajectories are taken off the table. I can eviscerate the strength of your position by adopting this line of attack. hen we sort of become equals. Pat

Me. myself and I, right?

[Corsair 115]

It seems we can perhaps summarize all of Patrick1000's posts thusly:

*facepalm*

[matt.tansy]

Originally Posted by tsig

Patrick if it was all scripted then why would there be any confusion about the coordinates?

Because the all-powerful NWO can't help but tip their hand to those select special few who have found out they exist. It's the NWO's way of letting the elite few know they know you know but you are powerless to stop them.

[matt.tansy]

Originally Posted by sts60

OK, this was absolutely pointless, but in a bizarre way fun to do; it's like performance art. Each italicized timestamp represents a different post by the socktor.

<huge snip>

It's now two hours later with no more words of wisdom from our socktor. I guess the Red Bull crash must have set in.

You forgot he somehow managed to take a little dip in the middle of all of that.

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

Today at 12:58 PM. I did go swimming yesterday and a touch of work as well.

[sts60]

Teh internets thank you for snipping the middle out of that quote when replying.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by sts60

Teh internets thank you for snipping the middle out of that quote when replying.

It's a real pain in the patootie to see a wall o' text - especially an inane one - copied in its entirety followed by a short one-liner from the poster.

[abaddon]

My prediction is that either:
A. he will stop posting for a period, then resume with the same tired arguments all over again.

or

B. will ignore any reference to the fantasy India trip entirely

[Kiwi9]

Originally Posted by ApolloGnomon

How did the CAPCOM learn about the laser being fired? From Walter Cronkite, who had breathless but uncorrect information from a field reporter.

Misinformation repeated is still misinformation. The only sources for the information "LRRR reflection returned on 20th" are faulty. Mission control was not in charge of Lick Observatory, they were not AT the observatory, and the only way they knew what was happening in the outside world was from television which was WRONG.

Television reported the laser return. Television was wrong...

ApolloGnomon, thank you very much for that story. I'd often wondered about the comment in the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. All they have in "Trying to Rest" is:

Quote:

112:34:29 McCandless: You might be interested in knowing, Mike, that we have gotten reflections back from the laser reflector array they deployed, and we may be able to get some information out of that a little later.

[Information from the laser returns can be used to refine estimates of the landing site location made, so far, from tracking data and LM guidance telemetry.]

I'd suggest you write it up and pass it on to the ALSJ, as it is an important and valuable bit of information. A little more valuable than what Patrick1000 has to say. :-)

[sts60]

It bears repeating that Apollo 11 had one single primary objective: "1.***** To perform a manned lunar landing and return.". Deploying the LRRR was just one of of the six secondary experimental objectives, which were themselves just part of the various other secondary objectives. Even locating the landed LM itself was a secondary objective. (ETA: All they needed was to land close enough to their planned target to perform LOR - but despite being asked repeatedly, P1k/fd/DT/etc. could never say why this hadn't been done.)

Because poor Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/etc. doesn't understand spaceflight, he blows it all up into this major crisis, so he can wallow in alleged "inconsistencies", never minding the mass of self-contradictions and errors in his own flood of words. (My favorite being his allegation that the A11 crew was hiding in Earth orbit and on the ground at the same time.)

ETA, much later: Also, while placing the LRRR was part of the flight plan, once that was done the crew and flight control team had no further operational interest. There was nothing else to do with the LRRR in the A11 flight plan after it was installed; again, as far as the crew's and FCT's operational interest, it might as well have been a rock outcropping.

[Kid Eager]

It has been an amusing thread. I guess I have an advantage in that I watched the descent and landing in realtime, as many others here may have done. It was well known at the time that there was a last-minute change to the landing sight on account of coming in slightly too hot and too many rocks in the target area. When Armstrong(?) went to manual control to pick the cleanest patch of ground, initial certainty of location was a problem.

[ApolloGnomon]

Originally Posted by Kiwi9

ApolloGnomon, thank you very much for that story. I'd often wondered about the comment in the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal. All they have in "Trying to Rest" is:




I'd suggest you write it up and pass it on to the ALSJ, as it is an important and valuable bit of information. A little more valuable than what Patrick1000 has to say. :-)

More work than it's worth. I don't expect this "inconsistency" to ever come up in conversation again until the end of time. I really don't think the ALSJ needs to be approached with the rigor of Talmudic Scholarship.

[Patrick1000]

你好 (Hey!)

我是你的朋友 Patrick (It's your friend Patrick)

You really ought to read this. On my flight, I figured the whole thing out. Oh not all of the details, but the major features of the "Eagle as Lost Bird" stuff. I can prove, well already have really, but will do all the more rigorously here, prove there was foreknowledge on the part of principals within the NASA Apollo Program with respect to the precise coordinates of Tranquility Base; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. As we all know and agree, foreknowledge equates with fraud, means fraud, regardless of the heap of "genuine lunar" or perhaps "not so very lunar at all" stones you may lay at my feet and beg me to inspect.

So, missing that flight on Thursday turned out to be a great thing after all, Apollo research wise, not to mention personal situation wise. Apollo research wise, I found that great line from the CapCom about the laser having successfully targeted the LRRR while the astronauts were still "on the moon", and was able to share that exciting piece of FRAUD evidence with all of you. And for me, personally, going west is always better than heading east. Who wouldn't rather be in Hong Kong? Know what I mean? My Cantonese is pretty dang good. My wife's parents live here. I'll crash at their place for a day and mooch some food. I'm hooking up with one of my best friends, another mathematician globe trotter type that's working on a project to upgrade the radar here at the Hong Kong airport. Matter of fact, he's going with me to India in 3 days to work at one of the airports there. So I picked up a great travel companion. I hate traveling alone. I love to swim in the pool at the YMCA out there on the mainland side of the Victorian water way. Also, my buddy working on the radar here is into baking, just like me. We do pies and stuff like that. Any of you into baking? Pies?

So, I am going to stay here for a few days before I go to Delhi given the option to do so. My wife's back home and quite fed up with my 4 month Apollo obsession. I love this city, Hong Kong, where I met her and taught maths for a while before I decided to go to medical school years back. Too many good memories to pass up.

Speaking of my wife being fed up, that was so funny, one of the last posts to me yesterday, or whatever day it was, I am disoriented time wise now, the guy said, "you've been posting for 12 hours straight!" My wife says the same thing, and she's said that to me every day for the last 4 months. Well not about posting necessarily, because most of the time I have been reading. The posting is/was just an experiment to see how I might stack up against "seasoned" debunkers. Well I guess pretty well from the feedback I have gotten, all of it pretty much from official narrative advocates. The day I didn't leave for Delhi, I went swimming in the morning and did nothing else but write to you all while waiting for news about travel. I think it literally was more like 14 or 15 hours of reading Apollo and responding to your posts yesterday.

That's what I mean. Working on the "Apollo Fraud Exposure Team" is very much a full time job. So you guys are off the hook. I'll post a couple things here, but plan to hang out with my friends and have fun. Then I must work. But oh what a bomb have I got to drop on you today, tonight, whatever the heck it is out your way.

Still, my long flight gave me the chance, free of my wife's nagging, to provide you all with a nice little summary, a proof of Apollo 11's FRAUD. The proof is based on the claim that foreknowledge of the Eagle's landing coordinates translates to fraudulence. We cannot have a real Apollo 11 Mission if the coordinates of Tranquility Base are known outside of the official narrative's borders. If Tranquility Base's coordinates can be shown to have been known before they were said by NASA to have been calculated, then the Apollo 11 is shown beyond any doubt whatsoever to be a full fledged SPACE JIVE JOB and we may proceed with our issuing orders for the arrests of Collins/Armstrong/Aldrin on charges of impersonating reasonably half way hardly not close to even remotely decent C rate super low budget very cheapest you can possibly hire actors.

I'll use a good source for every claim I make and proceed step by step. To successfully challenge each of my claims, you must more than simply say that is not true. You must provide your own references as well, references supporting your counter claims. If nothing else, this exercise of ours over the last couple weeks has shown that it is Patrick1000, not the Apollo 11 official story apologist side as represented by my opponents and detractors here at this forum, who has the greater familiarity with the primary Apollo 11 source materials, not to mention a greater familiarity with the relevant testimonies given by the NASA Apollo Lunar Scientists and the testimonies as presented in the seminal SCIENCE articles by the LRRR Experiment's Primary Investigators. Again, if you say one of my claims here is untrue, you must present a reference supporting why we should prefer your claim to mine. You must show why it is that your reference and not mine should be viewed as the stronger.

A final point before proceeding, as I mentioned to abaddon previously, this of course is not my best evidence, and I would be a fool to show you that now. The case of our debate over the magnification issue was one in which the stakes were trivial. As such, it was an easy choice to silence my opponents by presenting Dr. Clark's work as a reference in support of my position. This case with Apollo is different, and I will be ever so careful for obvious and not so obvious reasons with respect to my showing you what I have.

Your side has presented nothing concrete, nothing ever, not once. It is fine if Redtail or Kiwi9 says he/she do not accept Remington Stone's statement that a principal in Houston called scientist Joe Wampler personally at the Lick Observatory and gave Professor Wampler the coordinates 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east on the night of the landing shortly after Stone and Wampler watched Armstrong take his first few steps. Your challenging Stone's account is fair enough. But if you do so, you must also say not only that this did not happen, but you must also say then, what happened instead, for as we all know and as acknowledged by many NASA personal, Lick Observatory was contacted, coordinates were given. So if NASA says this happened, and you do not like Stone's answer, please provide your own reference arguing the coordinates given to Stone and Wampler were different, and please provide those coordinates and their method of determination.

Before starting in earnest with my little proof. Let's take a look at the "official narrative's" version of how it was Tranquility Base's coordinates were determined, and what those coordinates were. This will be helpful in moving forward.

NASA's version of the story, and what other version do we have my friends, tells that the best and most meaningful determination of the Eagle's perch was made by Fight Dynamics Officer/FIDO, H. David Reed. Indeed, it was his job to figure out how to get the Eagle's top part back to Columbia. The coordinates which Reed used for the LM launch solution were obtained using the "rendezvous radar in reverse".

The table of coordinates from the Apollo 11 Mission Report (table 5-IV) does not contain a REAL TIME moon landing determined set of coordinates; 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east that match those that came to be famously known as those of Tranquility Base. It is the case that the photography determination case appearing there in the Mission Report's lunar coordinate chart does yield 00 41 14 north and 23 26 01east, but as we all know, these numbers were derived subsequent to the astronauts' return, well after.

The man who calculated the launch trajectory and rendezvous solution for the Columbia and Eagle, H. David Reed, determined the LM to be at .636 north and 25.50 east. As Matt correctly pointed out in a previous post, the only "map reference corrected" coordinates appearing in the Mission Report table(5-IV) are the last ones, the ones to which foot note "c" apply. They are 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E. Knowing this, and knowing how to perform the straightforward conversion to the "seconds and minutes of arc" format, Reed's rendezvous radar coordinates become
00 40 35 north and 23 25 43 east.

So according to the official narrative, the FIDO, H. David Reed, employed in his launch solution the coordinates 00 40 35 north and 23 25 43 east. And as I have pointed out numerous times before, the official narrative features in it's story line statements made by the Eagle's commander, Neil Armstrong, that support this notion of the Eagle being, if not a "Lost Bird", well then never the less, one that most certainly had not been found. From the authorized biography of Neil Armstrong, FIRST MAN by James Hansen;

"In retrospect, two items may seem curious about Apollo 11’s technical situation immediately following touchdown. First, no one in NASA knew exactly where Eagle had landed. “One would have thought that their radar would have been good enough to pinpoint us more quickly than it did,” remarks Neil. When a spacecraft was in a trajectory or when it was in orbit, with all the optical and radar measurements being taken, both the ground and the crew had a pretty good idea of where the flight vehicle was, but it was a different problem when the object was sitting in one spot and all that anyone was getting was the same single measurement over and over again. “There was an uncertainty in that that was bigger than I would have guessed it would have been.” 04:07:02:03 Armstrong: Houston, the guys that said we wouldn’t be able to tell precisely where we are, are the winners today. We were a little busy worrying about our program alarms and things like that in the part of the descent where we would normally be picking out our landing spot, and aside from a good look at several of the craters we came over in the final descent, I haven’t been able to pick out the things on the horizon as a reference as yet."

Hansen, James R. (2005-10-18). First Man (pp. 480-481). Simon & Schuster.

Note Armstrong's statement there, a QUOTE of Armstrong by Hansen the author, that he was surprised that they were not pinpointed sooner by the radar. As we all have seen the numbers before, we know they were never pinpointed. Nowhere in the Mission Report's coordinate table, nowhere at all do we see 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. And yes of course it is important that the numbers, the "pinpointed" numbers, match exactly the numbers 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, the numbers as they were given to the staff at Lick Observatory by an Apollo Program principal on the night of 07/20/1969. As it turned out, those coordinates were indeed "pinpoint". They were coordinates for the very point upon which the LRRR rested. The ultimately successful targeting of the LRRR, somewhat ironically, proved it to be the case, the case that 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east were the EXACT LRRR coordinates.

As an aside, but as a critical part in our understanding of the official narrative's version of Tranquility Base's coordinate determination, let's digress. We'll come back to coordinates per se in a moment.

For those unaware, in the coordinate; 00 41 15, the last number group there, the "15", that's read 15 seconds of arc. Each second is roughly 27 feet. So if you give a number like this, you are claiming you know the Eagle to be in this place within the accuracy of the last number appearing, the five. So the "claim" by giving this number this way is that the Eagle's position is known more or less to within 5 X 27 or 105 feet. Pretty good wouldn't you say? The moon is 240,000 miles away. That's one billion, two hundred and sixty seven million, two hundred thousand feet. 240,000 miles away, and they are measuring the position of the eagle to within 105 feet of it's north coordinate. A calculation to better than one part in 12 million given the distance over which the calculation is made.

So is that possible? Well yes and no. It was/ is possible to determine those coordinates, but not with the equipment that the astronauts and Mission Control had available to them. Allow me to elaborate.

The LRRR experiment itself uses a ruby red laser to target the mirror in determining the moon's distance. Prior to the employment of LRRR ranging techniques, Earth-moon distances were estimable to within an accuracy of 2000 feet. The laser ranging provided the opportunity for scientists to measure Earth-moon distances to within 12 feet. A quote in support of that statement from Apollo Lunar scientist Donald Beattie;

"the latter experiment permitted the measurement of the Earth-Moon distance to within twelve feet as opposed to the best previous accuracy of about two thousand feet."

Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program (ebook Location 2926).

But one needs to know the precise location of the LRRR to make a meaningful statement such as, "the moon is so far away within a certainty of 12 feet". This is the case because the moon is not a flat sheet in front of us. It is curved, and for one thing, the "top" is farther away than the "middle", the equator of the moon.

So when one says the moon is so far away, so far away within a distance of 12 feet, they mean with respect to a particular place on the moon. That place may be 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east, or it may be another. But to make a meaningful statement about any distance where one utilizes this technique, this statement must also make reference to a very precise LRRR location. A precise distance measured means the LRRR location is also precisely known. That is not to say that one might not envision a scenario in which a laser operator might not first have rough coordinates given to him or her, say be told, "We think it's around 00 40 35 north and 23 25 17 east and then the laser guys would sort of "hunt" about for the LRRR until that "Eureka moment" when one finds the best return of photons. And maybe that best return would not be from 00 40 35 N and 23 25 17 E, but rather, 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E. There is absolutely no evidence in NASA's Apollo 11 official narrative however that such was the case. Rather, what happened was the Lick Observatory staff were contacted by an individual from the space agency and were informed by that individual that the Tranquility Base coordinates had been determined by the astronauts/Mission Control and those coordinates were 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E. Both the man responsible for the targeting of the Laser, Remington Stone, as well as the Primary investigator of the entire LRRR experiment, C.O. Alley, inform us that the primary reason they had difficulty successfully targeting the laser was the Jet Propulsion Lab's distance calculations provided to the Lick group for targeting were off. This was the case as the Jet Propulsion Lab's staff did not have the correct coordinates for the Lick Observatory telescope. Here are quotes from Stone and C.O. Alley(experiment's principal investigator) that reference the problem with successful targeting and its ultimate solution. The quote by Stone can be found in an article previously referenced at the University of California Observatory's web site. Stone's piece features a remarkable first hand account of the goings on at Lick Observatory on 07/20/1969. In the case of Alley, I reference again the seminal article from January 1970 that appeared in the journal SCIENCE reporting some of the LRRR experiment group's first findings. First Stone;

"It remained to explain the unexpected discrepancy in timing. Every detail of the experiment was examined carefully. It took weeks to finally locate the source of the error within the computer program JPL had used to generate the expected timing for the return signal. They quite reasonably had assumed that Lick Observatory (LO) was where the American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac (predecessor of the Astronomical Almanac) said it was, which in turn and equally reasonably listed the observatory location as given by the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey (USCGS). USCGS thought LO was where their Lick Observatory benchmark was placed. Their benchmark was in the parking lot west of the Main Building, 1700 feet from the 3m telescope.
Thus, the first result of this very sophisticated Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment was to accurately measure the distance between the 3m telescope and the Main Building parking lot - via a retroreflector on the moon!"

Now Alley, from the journal SCIENCE, January 1970;

"A first "geodetic result" from the
acquisition observations at Lick (9) was
the discovery, from the drift of the residual
round-trip travel time with respect
to the JPL lunar ephemeris 16 (LE16)
predictions, that the coordinates for the
120-inch telescope are not those given
for Mt. Hamilton (Lick Observatory)
in the American Ephemeris and Nautical
Almanac (9a)."

So to summarize so far, commander Armstrong himself was surprised as quoted above. Surprised given the fact that the LM's position had not been "pinpointed" earlier. And as we see in reviewing NASA's own Apollo 11 Mission Report document, nowhere in this report do we find the coordinates, 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E. The photography solution is extremely close at 00 41 14 N and 23 26 01 E, but that solution with those coordinates was not available until AFTER the astronauts returned to Earth. Additionally, if we look at the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript, beginning at 06 07 33 33, well over a day after the astronauts have allegedly left the surface of the moon, we note, sure there is some awareness of Tranquility Base's location in a broad general sense, but certainly not in the sense of Tranquility Base's location being known within the 5 seconds of arc/105 feet featured as the last digit of the site's well known north coordinate, 00 41 15 N. Here's the Voice Transcript;

From time 06 07 33 33

"CapCom. Apollo 11, this is Houston. While you're waiting for the CSM to settle down and for us to look at the tapes on your latest maneuver, would you feel like answering some more questions with relation to the lunar surface? Over.
Armstrong. Go ahead.

Armstrong. Go ahead, Houston.
CapCom. Roger. For 64 thousand dollars, we're still trying to work out the location of your landing site, Tranquility Base. We think it is located on LAM-2 chart at Juliet 0.5 and 7.8. Do you still have those charts on board? Over.
Armstrong. Yes. Stand by one. They're packed.
CapCom. Roger. You may not have to unpack it. The position which I just gave you is slightly west of West Crater. I guess it's about two-tenths of a kilometer west of it, and we were wondering if Neil or Buzz had observed any additional land- marks during descent, lunar stay, or ascent which would confirm or disprove this. One thing that we're wondering about is that if you were at this position, you would have seen the Cat's Paw during ascent just up to the north of your track. Over.
Armstrong. We were looking for the Cat's Paw, too, thinking we were probably downrange, beyond the Big V.
But I think that it's likely that that might have been West Crater that we went across in landing, but - Stand by.
Armstrong. We're hoping, Bruce, that our 16-mm film was working at that point in descent, and we'll be able to confirm our touchdown position. We thought that during ascent we might be able to pick up some recognizable objects close to the landing site, and we did see a number of small craters, and crater rows, and things like that, which we may be able to pick out after the fact, but we haven't been able to yet."

And finally, from the important group of individuals that were tapped to try and "find the Eagle" AFTER the astronauts returned home, the Apollo Lunar Scientists. Here's Donald Beattie as he reminds us that per the official narrative, the Eagle's location was not known, the Bird was not found until Beattie and his colleagues analyzed flight and photographic data and then provided that data to the Lick Observatory staff, and in so doing, provided Lick with enough photo and flight analysis detail to finally hit their target and catch some photons bouncing back. We know Beattie's "side of the story" to be true. We know Beattie and his Apollo Lunar Scientist colleagues did analyze photos and fight/tracking data, believing they were doing this to find the LM. We know this because we know Beattie to be an honorable man. However, we also know that Beattie's work had nothing to do with finding the Eagle because the man who targeted the LRRR, Remington Stone, told us in his writing that they had the LRRR coordinates on the evening of the landing and we also know that the official narrative as officially spun is a lie because the primary investigator on the Lunar Laser Ranging Project, C.O.Alley, tells us it was the Jet Propulsion Labs mistaken coordinates for the Lick telescope itself that was the problem. Stone's and Alley's statements with respect to this are quoted above. Here is Beattie;

"This latter operation was not as easy as we expected, since the exact location of the landing site was not immediately known. Mike Collins had attempted unsuccessfully to locate the LM from orbit using the command module sextant. After analyzing the flight data and the returned photographs, we passed our best estimate to the LRRR PIs, and the LRRR was found on August 1, 1969, by the Lick Observatory in California."

Donald A. Beattie. Taking Science to the Moon: Lunar Experiments and the Apollo Program (ebook Locations 2912-2915).

So we are just about ready to begin with our formal proof. Before we do, let's try and state as best we can, what the official narrative claims are about how Tranquility Base's coordinates were determined, and what those coordinates as determined by the astronauts and the Mission Control Flight Officers and Apollo supporting scientists were. Why don't we start our all inclusive summary of the official narrative version of things with a focused review on what the astronauts told us about how they understood Tranquility Base's position to have been defined, in terms of coordinates, or anything else for that matter. Astronaut Collins said in his book, FLYING TO THE MOON(page 133 paperback edition) that "no one knew exactly where Neil had landed". Collins said, "I didn't know which way to look for them. Oh, I knew approximately where they were, but the sextant had a narrow field of view, like looking down a riffle barrel, and I needed to know exactly which way to point". Armstrong was quoted above as saying he thought the Eagle's base would have been pinpointed sooner, yet we see from the above voice transcript quote that more than a day after Armstrong was collected off the lunar surface by his colleague Collins, the people back in Houston still viewed the coordinate determination issue as the "$64,000 question". We can see that none of the coordinates as presented in the Apollo 11 Mission Report match up exactly with 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 east. The photography ones are close, but they were not determined until well after the astronauts' return. Furthermore, H. David Reed, Mission Control's best launch FIDO, the man who "found" the Eagle by way of the clever rendezvous radar in reverse technique as suggested by his DYNAMICS officer, told us none of the coordinates obtained in real time by any method were closer than 25,000 feet/4.73 miles to his rendezvous radar determined coordinates of 00 40 35 N and 23 25 43. In his chapter of the book, FROM THE TRENCHES OF MISSION CONTROL TO THE CRATERS OF THE MOON, Reed wrote,

"Later we would find out just where were we on the surface. We were actually over 25,000 feet from the nearest of the other five choices we had! At 5,000-fps orbital velocity of the CSM that could have been up to a ten second error in liftoff".

So based on launch specialist Reed's statements we have his radar determined coordinates (being 40 seconds of arc south of 00 41 15 N and 17 seconds of arc west of 23 26 00) located roughly 1200 feet from the coordinates that came to be known as Tranquility's true and accurate location. That's not even a quarter of a mile away. So according to David Reed, all of the other solutions available to him that morning, solutions based on MSFN(tracking radars),PNGS, AGS, targeted landing and geologist determined coordinates based on photos and Armstrong's landscape description, all of these other solutions were at least four and a half to four and three quarters of a mile from his "reverse radar" solution; 00 40 35 north and 23 25 43 east.
So finally we can make a clear and definite statement about what the official narrative can tell us with respect to landing coordinate determination. Armstrong, Collins, Reed, Beattie tell us that at no time until just prior to LM lunar surface lift off were the coordinates of Tranquility base known to any greater degree of accuracy than within roughly 4.5 miles of their actual location. When Reed finally made his calculation, then and only then, thanks too Reed, the position of Tranquility Base was known to within 1200 feet of its acknowledged position. The $64,000 question was asked 6 days and 7 hours into the journey, this being over a day after the moon walk was concluded, and so there was still uncertainty at that point. And per Donald Beattie, that uncertainty was so significant that he and his other Apollo Lunar Scientist colleagues worked after the astronauts returned, analyzing flight data and photos in an effort to give the Lick Observatory Scientists a better chance to successfully target the LRRR. The official narrative features 08/01/1969 as the date when the LRRR was first successfully targeted and with that first successful targeting, Tranquility Base's coordinates were then and only then determined to be 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east.

So it is indeed an easy thing, now that we have our table set this way to show foreknowledge. Foreknowledge here means awareness of accurate coordinate numbers, the exact numbers, 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E, outside the activity of actually doing the calculations necessary to obtain them. The little "proof" below demonstrates the Apollo 11 Mission to be FRAUDULENT given foreknowledge as defined. Keep in mind, the official narrative says 00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 east is known only ON OR AFTER 08/01/1969.

Here we go.

#1) From the Apollo 11 Voice Transcript, the LRRR is placed
Time 14 15 03 57

"CDR The laser reflector is installed and the bubble is leveled and the alignment appears to be good."

#2) CapCom tells astronaut Collins the LRRR has been successfully targeted. If that were the case, they would know coordinates to a degree of great precision. Per above, nothing could be further from the truth. Collins was quoted above as not knowing where his colleagues were. And this was a clear and unambiguous statement. Remember too, the LRRR was not successfully targeted until 08/01/1969. This CapCom statement is intentionally misleading, "planted" in the transcript by way of scripting. If there is at least the possibility of the LRRR being targeted successfully right there in real time, people are encouraged to think, "well this all must be real". Nothing could be further from the truth of course. From the Voice Transcript;

Time 14 16 34 29

"CC You might be interested in knowing, Mike, that we have gotten reflections back from the laser reflector ray they deployed, and we may be able to get some information out of that a little later."

Note; Collins is an intelligent man. If he knew the LRRR had been successfully targeted as he is being told here by the CapCom and assuming he wants to find Armstrong as he claims he does, he would be asking for the LRRR based coordinates in the voice transcript. Whether they've got them or not, Collins would be asking and expecting them. This is not real. Instead, he is searching with a sextant for the Eagle. Not credible at all! FRAUD!!!!

#3) The staff at Lick Observatory is contacted and informed of the coordinates shortly after the LRRR is placed on the lunar surface. Note how Stone mentions the first night "15" was heard as "50" so they called back the next day and were given the same coordinates!!!!! Verifying foreknowledge! A quote here by the man targeting the laser featured in his first person account of the events at Lick Observatory on the evening of 07/20/1969, Stone;

"The astronauts soon determined their precise location on the moon and radioed that information to Mission Control in Houston. Later that evening, Joe Wampler spoke with Mission Control to obtain the coordinates for the actual landing site. I was sitting next to him as he stood at the night assistant's desk in the 3m control room, upon which he had a large scale moon map spread out. I heard Joe repeat back the coordinates three times in order to be absolutely certain he had them correct. Then, with the spot carefully marked on the map, we pointed the telescope to that exact lunar location and started firing a laser at it - scientific history in the making!
We blasted away all night but detected no return signal whatsoever. Things got pretty subdued later in the evening as it became apparent we had a problem.
This problem was identified the next day when someone called Houston again to verify the lunar coordinates, which turned out to be 00°41 15 N, 23°26 00 W. Despite the fact that Joe had repeated every number three separate times, they were still wrong. The person he had spoken with in Houston that first night had a deep Texas accent, and although the last two digits in the N-S coordinate group were 15, through the thick Texan drawl Joe had consistently heard "fifty" rather than "fifteen", so we had not been pointed at the correct spot on the first night."

note: in the above quote W instead of E for the second coordinate. Doesn't change the substance of the discussion as obvious error. Whether this is an innocent error or not is unclear. Stone's group gets the coordinates and has to even verify them the next day because of the 15/50 mishearing issue. Both times the Lick group gets 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east from Houston as the magic numbers. So if it had really been the case that somebody had these Apollo 11 Mission derived coordinates in Houston and told them to the Lick staff, why don't they give these very coordinates to Armstrong, Collins, Beattie , Read? They sure want and need them!

That's it! The official narrative says the coordinates were not "discovered" until the LRRR was found on 08/01/1969 by the Lick people. We clearly see that not to be the case here and we clearly can see proof of Tranquility Base location foreknowledge as well. The numbers magically appear without calculation and are given to the Lick Observatory Staff shortly after the LRRR is set down. Prove me wrong by showing me if that is not the case, then from where did the numbers come from? I see them no where, certainly do not see them in the Mission Report. Not in any REAL TIME sense. The photo data is sure close absolute number wise, but those photography derived coordinates came after the astronauts returned. These numbers I refer to, the Tranquility Base coordinates of the Remington Stone piece given to the Lick Observatory staff in lunar walk REAL TIME, those coordinates come from outside any calculations made by the Apollo Program team. They come from outside any calculations made by astronauts, or by the people at Mission Control. There is no evidence whatsoever that these coordinates were calculated by Armstrong/Aldrin/Collins/Mission Control. They were given to Lick Observatory by a fraud perpetrator, and then those very same coordinates were oddly "confirmed" in a sense, confirmed when the LRRR was successfully targeted after the timing problem was remedied. Beattie's story about analyzing photos confirms the fraud as Alley, the LRRR principal investigator himself wrote that the problem with finding the LRRR after 12 days of trying had to do with the timing issue. It had nothing to do with the need for Beattie et. al's to provide coordinate determination help by way of photo analysis. Also, Reed's testimony exposes fraud and forgery in the substance of the Mission Report. Note how close all the numbers are there in the Mission Report table 5-IV(with the exception of the AOT derived north coordinate. Reed says the coordinates offered to him as data for a possible LM launch solution on the morning of 07/21/1969 were at least 25,000 feet/4.73 miles from his. In the Mission Report the numbers we find are actually VERY close to his. Reed has no reason to lie about this matter, especially in a casual little book such as the one about the flight officers "FROM THE TRENCHES…" Reed is not lying, so then NASA must be. FRAUD!!!! The numbers in the Mission Report are made up.

Finally, I would suggest one possible reason all this went on was to prevent the Russians from photographing 00 41 15 North and 23 26 00 East without astronauts hanging around there. Another possibility is were this a real mission, the TV camera and even perhaps the Hasselblad camera might pick up, or be expected to pick up, the ruby red light of the laser. Since Apollo really is fraud and not science, "NASA" would be motivated to "hide the coordinate numbers", at least hide them from some, so the lack of laser evidence in the photos and or tv camera continuous videoing could be explained away by, "well no one knew exactly where they were so that's why you don't see the laser in any of the shots. No one managed to hit it. So you don't see laser evidence in the tv stuff. They were off target". This would be the excuse. If it was real, you at least might expect to see the laser light recorded. Since it is all fake, they pretend to not know where the Eagle is. Remember, the Russians and French both had lasers, good ones, perhaps capable of targeting the LRRR at Tranquility. If you announced the coordinates, the others could target the LRRR. If the French or Russians did successfully target the LRRR, and there were no tv cameras there, no astronauts, people would ask, "where is the laser light in your tv video? Didn't the French and Russians shoot the laser there when you guys couldn't seem to? Don't you have pictures of the laser light in your video?"

Finally, my explanations, Russian fears, tv camera laser light expectation fears, need not be correct. they are suggested explanations. If I prove foreknowledge of coordinates, the fraud charges and fraud conviction stand! We can puzzle out the rest in good time. But from my vantage here it looks like an open and shut case unless one of you guys can prove me wrong. and please, don't say just "WRONG". For once, why don't you try and produce some references? Your credibility like that of the actornauts is fading.

[ApolloGnomon]

tl;dr

unusable snr.

ZIR
ZCS

[matt.tansy]

Same old rehashed and thoroughly debunked nonsense. Absolutely nothing new.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

... and please, don't say just "WRONG".

WRONG.

Well, it's in color so it's not EXACTLY what we're forbidden to say.

[TjW]

I can hardly blame Patrick if he takes a dim view of professional pilots. Imagine planning to go to India via Europe and winding up in China instead.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by drewid

Don't forgwt he was also a radar technician/engineer over on Baut, where he posted as Highgain.

While having suspicions and a lot of posters reporting Highgain as a sock we were unable to make a strong enough link to ban him as a sock.

[ApolloGnomon]

Acquitted by Bastard Verdict?

[sts60]

Going to meet his sock-puppet friend HighGain? Talk about finding yourself...

Otherwise, it seems like he's repeating himself at great length - very great length; Patrick1000/fattydash/BFischer/Sicilian/HighGain/etc. certainly likes to hear himself talk. Pity he can't divert a fraction of the energy he puts into quote-mining and autohagiography into answering questions, or actually trying to understand what he is told by people who actually understand the subject.

[ApolloGnomon]

Well, he's getting nothing but 3-letter responses from me here out. Some people just aren't worth the effort.

[BaaBaa]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

You really ought to read this.

No, I don't.

[drewid]

Patrick. You keep swapping quantity for quality, presumably this is just to annoy people, because it sure doesn't do anything for you ability to communicate.
Now do that again in 200 words rather than 6000. If you are any sort of a writer you will be able to.

[Kid Eager]

I can't see a case in there. Data rich, information poor. goodbye.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by Patrick1000

你好 (Hey!)

我是你的朋友 Patrick (It's your friend Patrick)

Lying really doesn't do your case any good.

"Greetings from Hong Kong!!!!!!! "

So it's the special flight to India via Europe and Hong Kong. Perhaps if you spent less time telling extremely large pork pies you may even remotely convince somebody that you have a case. Personally all I see is literary licence and not such good recall from the numerous people you quote. You supply a truly awful reason for faking it - magic Russian photography from space that surpasses the LRO, and an excuse that somebody in NASA was embellishing 'the script' because, errr because.....err.......

The rocks - discuss.

I'll get the ball rolling. They are impossible to fake.

[sts60]

And Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/Etc... starts the sock-puppet jive up again, back on BAUT posting as HighGain. After throwing numerous sick-puppets under the bus in this thread, he's got one providing an introduction for another, transparently as usual.

[nomuse]

Strikes me that since the only reference to the specific coordinates is (according to Doctor Socks) given in a certain specific book, the answer to that is much simpler. Is he thinking Stone is going to remember "00 41 15 N and 23 26 00 E" for 40-odd years, and write it into his book? Isn't it rather more likely he (or someone else) simply said "insert coordinates here" and when they got to the clean-up stage on the manuscript, looked up "Location of Tranquility Base" on Google or whatever?

[ApolloGnomon]

Give it a rest, guys. He's suffering from some serious OCD/addictive behaviour withdrawal right now. Don't act like we all are.

Let it go.


QRT QRT QRT

[fullflavormenthol]

Whoa! I just scrolled up a little and there it was...the Great Wall of China of text. It is like looking out your window and realizing that the Empire State Building has always been there, but you simply never noticed.

I really never say this, but that is a rare TL;DR for me.

[drewid]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

While having suspicions and a lot of posters reporting Highgain as a sock we were unable to make a strong enough link to ban him as a sock.

You need one of those bits of software that analyse writing for word and phrase frequency and style. I think they cost about $5000

[Klimax]

Originally Posted by sts60

And Patrick1000/fattydash/DoctorTea/Etc... starts the sock-puppet jive up again, back on BAUT posting as HighGain. After throwing numerous sick-puppets under the bus in this thread, he's got one providing an introduction for another, transparently as usual.

I guess we see second stage of sock-puppetry...
(hm, is it really upgrade?)