The Center of Existence

Iacchus · 17th April 2004, 11:24 PM

So, the earth is not the Center of Existence huh? How so?

If the Universe is endless, then we must be in its center. In fact we always will be. Why? Because that's what existence is all about, being in the center of who we are ... If you told the bug under the rock that his little domain wasn't the center of the universe, do you think he'd get it? How could he? Else he'd have to concern himself with some other bug under some other rock in some other galaxy far far away, let alone the bug under a rock just two feet away! And do you think that would wash over?

So, is it wrong to believe the earth is the center of the Universe then? Afterall, everything operates from within its center doesn't it? In fact if we understood this, we might understand that the Holy Land of all our mythologies is not someplace out there but, within us.

c4ts · 17th April 2004, 11:42 PM

Because in the center of the universe there's a great big holy mana tree with a sword in it for some reason and a great big foot or a cigar shaped object with...

no.

Iacchus · 18th April 2004, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts

Because in the center of the universe there's a great big holy mana tree with a sword in it for some reason and a great big foot or a cigar shaped object with...

no.

But I am in the center of the Universe, because the Universe is endless right? Or, would that be a way of saying God embraces everything? Hmm ...

Iacchus · 18th April 2004, 01:13 AM

Quote:

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. ~ Luke 17:21-22

Iacchus · 18th April 2004, 02:11 AM

Excerpt from Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth ...

The vision of Black Elk ...

He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere."

That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience -- this is the mythological experience.

metropolis_part_one · 18th April 2004, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
But I am in the center of the Universe, because the Universe is endless right? Or, would that be a way of saying God embraces everything? Hmm ...

who cares?

Iacchus · 18th April 2004, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by metropolis_part_one

who cares?

I do. At least that makes one of us right?

RussDill · 18th April 2004, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, the earth is not the Center of Existence huh? How so?

If the Universe is endless, then we must be in its center. In fact we always will be. Why? Because that's what existence is all about, being in the center of who we are ... If you told the bug under the rock that his little domain wasn't the center of the universe, do you think he'd get it? How could he? Else he'd have to concern himself with some other bug under some other rock in some other galaxy far far away, let alone the bug under a rock just two feet away! And do you think that would wash over?

So, is it wrong to believe the earth is the center of the Universe then? Afterall, everything operates from within its center doesn't it? In fact if we understood this, we might understand that the Holy Land of all our mythologies is not someplace out there but, within us.

Please, define which meaning of "center of the universe" you are using

kuroyume0161 · 18th April 2004, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RussDill

Please, define which meaning of "center of the universe" you are using

The one where he's the star, a big spotlight shining on him, and roses fill the stage. Or I could be delusional?

Kuroyume

epepke · 19th April 2004, 01:35 AM

If you had any understanding of General Relativity, which alas you don't, you'd realize that any observer would view the universe as if he, she, and/or it were at the center.

RussDill · 19th April 2004, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by epepke
If you had any understanding of General Relativity, which alas you don't, you'd realize that any observer would view the universe as if he, she, and/or it were at the center.

assuming that every observer would view the universe as symetrical.

Navigator · 19th April 2004, 02:28 AM

Navigator · 19th April 2004, 02:30 AM

Everthing which exist in this universe, must also be the center of the universe, since as you point out - the universe is (apparently) infinite.
If super intelligence permeates All That Is - then it might even regard itself as being in the center.
Thus all things intelligent to the point where they can regard such concepts, must also be in the center of the universe, and from this point of observation, would also (using the same intelligence) see all things as being center of the universe and ever expanding from that center.
The point of the big bang could be regarded as the center of the universe.
However, is this universe the center of the other universe?
(Why would there not be other universes?)
God is obviously The Scientist.

Iacchus · 19th April 2004, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by epepke

If you had any understanding of General Relativity, which alas you don't, you'd realize that any observer would view the universe as if he, she, and/or it were at the center.

Exactly! And do you know what else? Life originates from within the center. Or else it wouldn't be alive.

LizardPeople · 19th April 2004, 09:52 AM

I don't know about the center of existence or the the center of the universe, but I've been to the center of the world. It's in Felicity, CA. See here

Iacchus · 19th April 2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LizardPeople

I don't know about the center of existence or the the center of the universe, but I've been to the center of the world. It's in Felicity, CA. See here

Speaking of the Dragon at the Center of the World (inside the link you provided), it brings up the Great Red Dragon in Revelation 12, which gives rise to the Beast out of the Sea and the False Prophet in Revlevation 13. And we all know the number of the False Prophet don't we? What a coincidence (huh?) that your post count is about to turn to 666!

Hmm ... Maybe it gives rise to the Dragons of Evolution (Dinosaurs), to which some of us strictly adhere? belief-wise that is.

Iacchus · 19th April 2004, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus

What a coincidence (huh?) that your post count is about to turn to 666!

And there you have it! ...

By the way, did you know that time and space comes together in the here and now? And, that no matter where you go, you're there?

RussDill · 19th April 2004, 11:50 PM

If we live in an infinate, but boundless universe, then the "big bang" would occur at the center of the universe, and since that means that the big point occured at everypoint in the universe, it would follow that every point is the center of the universe.

However, when spacetime and general relativity are applied, it no longer follows. With GR and spacetime, the universe was never "pointlike". The big bang occured in a region of spacetime.

I digress, it still comes down to it being pointless to say phoenix is the center of the earth simply because the surface of the earth is boundless.

Zep · 19th April 2004, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
And there you have it! ...

By the way, did you know that time and space comes together in the here and now? And, that no matter where you go, you're there?

"Remember; no matter where you go, there you are."- B. Banzai

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RussDill

If we live in an infinate, but boundless universe, then the "big bang" would occur at the center of the universe, and since that means that the big point occured at everypoint in the universe, it would follow that every point is the center of the universe.

If it all began with the Big Bang, and everything continues to expand, what is it expanding into, besides boundlessness?

fishbob · 20th April 2004, 01:38 AM

Quote:

But I am in the center of the Universe, because the Universe is endless right? Or, would that be a way of saying God embraces everything? Hmm ...

Nope, I am the center of the Universe. You are somewhere off in left field. And that would not at all be a way of saying God embraces everything. If you want to say God embraces everything, repeat after me " G O D e m b r a c e s e v e r y t h i n g" Got it? OK.

Of course this is fiction, but it might make you feel better, out there in left field. Personally, I don't want anything churchy embracing anybody or anything around me. Ya just don't know where they have been lately. (see "Molesting for Spiritual Reasons" in the next thread over)

DangerousBeliefs · 20th April 2004, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
If it all began with the Big Bang, and everything continues to expand, what is it expanding into, besides boundlessness?

Interesting question.... I believe the current theory based on all the data is that the Universe will expand forever, basically dying a big cold death.

This is opposed to collapsing into itself in the Big Squeeze.

But why get a little science mixed with this fantasy-island thread?

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

But why get a little science mixed with this fantasy-island thread?

Why make such a big deal about Science when in fact we have all we need to sustain ourselves right here and now? It works for all the creatures on this planet, what makes us so special?

DangerousBeliefs · 20th April 2004, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Why make such a big deal about Science when in fact we have all we need to sustain ourselves right here and now? It works for all the creatures on this planet, what makes us so special?

Are you sitting in a nice warm, insulated house? Got indoor running water and electricity? Using a sophisticated computer, hooked to a global network?

Science.

Isn't THAT obvious? Science allows you the LUXURY of philosophy. Otherwise, you'd be dressed in rags out in a mud field right now, planting potatoes.

This assumes you're under the age of 45...

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

Are you sitting in a nice warm, insulated house? Got indoor running water and electricity? Using a sophisticated computer, hooked to a global network?

Science.

Isn't THAT obvious? Science allows you the LUXURY of philosophy. Otherwise, you'd be dressed in rags out in a mud field right now, planting potatoes.

This assumes you're under the age of 45...

But you didn't answer the question? What makes us so special? Especially if it's so hazardous to the environment?

None of this seemed to bother the Native Americans a whole lot did it?

DangerousBeliefs · 20th April 2004, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
But you didn't answer the question? What makes us so special? Especially if it's so hazardous to the environment?

None of this seemed to bother the Native Americans a whole lot did it?

Who is "us"?

Special in what way?

What is hazardous to the environment?

What do the Native Americans have to do with science or the center of the Universe?

I'm sure someone has asked this before.... you do know what "science" means, right?

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

Who is "us"?

Special in what way?

What is hazardous to the environment?

What do the Native Americans have to do with science or the center of the Universe?

I'm sure someone has asked this before.... you do know what "science" means, right?

Snug as a bug under the rug huh? That's amazing!

We are the planet ... the planet is us. But we sure don't behave that way now do we?

DangerousBeliefs · 20th April 2004, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Snug as a bug under the rug huh? That's amazing!

We are the planet ... the planet is us. But we don't behave that way now do we?

So, if we remove humans from the planet... it, uh, disappears?

What behavior?

Are you afraid to answer any questions?

Leif Roar · 20th April 2004, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Navigator
Everthing which exist in this universe, must also be the center of the universe, since as you point out - the universe is (apparently) infinite.

Actually, that's not correct. Just because there's an infinite distance in all directions, doesn't mean that the distance is equal in all directions. Some infinities can be said to be greater than others.

For instance, if I start at a point X and lay tiles in a north-south line through X. For every tile I lay to the north of X, I lay two tiles to the south. After a long day's work, I've put down an infinite number of tiles, and I go back to X to fetch my jacket. There's an infinitely long row of tiles stretching out through X, but X is not at the centre of the row: it lies an infinite distance north of the centre.

Sure, the length of the row to the north of X is infinite, as is the length of the row to the south of X, but we also know that the length of the row to the south of X is twice as great as the row to the north. The cardinality of the southern infinity is greater than the cardinality of the northern infinity, so we're not at the centre.

(Aren't infinities fun?)

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

So, if we remove humans from the planet... it, uh, disappears?

No, it actually might reappear.

Quote:

What behavior?

Externalized behavior.

Quote:

Are you afraid to answer any questions?

Well actually you caught me in the comfort zone for moment, however, that still doesn't change what we're doing to the planet.

DangerousBeliefs · 20th April 2004, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well actually you caught me in the comfort zone for moment, however, that still doesn't change what we're doing to the planet.

And what are "we" doing?

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

And what are "we" doing?

Consuming, and devouring, as if there were no tomorrow. And why do we do that? ... because we're not satisfied.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill, right?

Even the apes seem happy dangling from the trees. What makes us so different then? Could it be that we have yet to discover happiness is an internal thing, as opposed to an external? It would sure save a lot of wear and tear on the planet if we weren't so greedy and materialistic about things wouldn't it?

DangerousBeliefs · 20th April 2004, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Consuming, and devouring, as if there were no tomorrow. And why do we do that? ... because we're not satisfied.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill, right?

And we're not satisfied because.... we're the center of the Universe?

Nyarlathotep · 20th April 2004, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, the earth is not the Center of Existence huh? How so?

If the Universe is endless, then we must be in its center. In fact we always will be. Why? Because that's what existence is all about, being in the center of who we are ... If you told the bug under the rock that his little domain wasn't the center of the universe, do you think he'd get it? How could he? Else he'd have to concern himself with some other bug under some other rock in some other galaxy far far away, let alone the bug under a rock just two feet away! And do you think that would wash over?

For a change I think you are on to something. Wherever you are is going to seem like the center of the universe to you. Though I would file it under "mildly interesting observations" rather than "profound philosophical truths."

Quote:

So, is it wrong to believe the earth is the center of the Universe then? Afterall, everything operates from within its center doesn't it? In fact if we understood this, we might understand that the Holy Land of all our mythologies is not someplace out there but, within us.

oops, now you lost it and veered straight into la-la land again. too bad.

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

For a change I think you are on to something. Wherever you are is going to seem like the center of the universe to you. Though I would file it under "mildly interesting observations" rather than "profound philosophical truths."

oops, now you lost it and veered straight into la-la land again. too bad.

Did you read Joseph Campbell's take on Black Elk's vision above? ...

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus

Excerpt from Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth ...

The vision of Black Elk ...

He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere."

That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience -- this is the mythological experience.

Now that's what I call profound.

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs

And we're not satisfied because.... we're the center of the Universe?

No, I'd say it's because we don't understand happiness is an internal thing, as opposed to an external.

Nyarlathotep · 20th April 2004, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Did you read Joseph Campbell's take on Black Elk's vision above? ...

Now that's what I call profound.

I read it. I wasn't impressed, sorry to say. Jospeph Campbell has a knack, imo, for taking mildy interesting obsevations and trying to make deeply profound philosophical truths out of them. I have never gotten him, honestly.

Iacchus · 20th April 2004, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep

I read it. I wasn't impressed, sorry to say. Jospeph Campbell has a knack, imo, for taking mildy interesting obsevations and trying to make deeply profound philosophical truths out of them. I have never gotten him, honestly.

Well, you can talk about chocolate ice cream until kingdom comes, but how would you know, unless you taste it for yourself?

However, that doesn't make it any less applealing conversation wise, once you have tasted it.

Nyarlathotep · 20th April 2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Well, you can talk about chocolate ice cream until kingdom comes, but how would you know, unless you taste it for yourself?

However, that doesn't make it any less applealing conversation wise, once you have tasted it.

In my case it isn't a case of never having tasted it, it's a case of tasting it, going "eh" and wondering what all the fuss is over it.

daenku32 · 20th April 2004, 10:28 AM

It's not 'wrong' to believe us to be the center of a universe.

It's the minute you use that belief in scientific formalas that it becomes wrong.

17th April 2004, 11:24 PM	#1
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	The Center of Existence So, the earth is not the Center of Existence huh? How so? If the Universe is endless, then we must be in its center. In fact we always will be. Why? Because that's what existence is all about, being in the center of who we are ... If you told the bug under the rock that his little domain wasn't the center of the universe, do you think he'd get it? How could he? Else he'd have to concern himself with some other bug under some other rock in some other galaxy far far away, let alone the bug under a rock just two feet away! And do you think that would wash over? So, is it wrong to believe the earth is the center of the Universe then? Afterall, everything operates from within its center doesn't it? In fact if we understood this, we might understand that the Holy Land of all our mythologies is not someplace out there but, within us.

17th April 2004, 11:42 PM	#2
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Because in the center of the universe there's a great big holy mana tree with a sword in it for some reason and a great big foot or a cigar shaped object with... no.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

18th April 2004, 01:13 AM	#4
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	The Kingdom of God is Within Quote: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. ~ Luke 17:21-22

18th April 2004, 02:11 AM	#5
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	The Vision of Black Elk Excerpt from Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth ... The vision of Black Elk ... He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere." That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience -- this is the mythological experience.

18th April 2004, 06:36 AM	#6
metropolis_part_one Scholar Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 69	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *But I am in the center of the Universe, because the Universe is endless right? Or, would that be a way of saying God embraces* everything? Hmm ...** who cares?
	__________________ BOILER: You're drunk. MARWOOD: Just bring out the cakes WITHNAIL: Cakes and fine wines OLD WOMAN: If you don't leave, we'll call the police. WITHNAIL: Balls! We want the finest wines available to humanity. We want them here, and we want them now!

18th April 2004, 12:03 AM	#3
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by c4ts Because in the center of the universe there's a great big holy mana tree with a sword in it for some reason and a great big foot or a cigar shaped object with... no. But I am in the center of the Universe, because the Universe is endless right? Or, would that be a way of saying God embraces everything? Hmm ...

18th April 2004, 07:07 AM	#7
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by metropolis_part_one who cares? I do. At least that makes one of us right?

18th April 2004, 08:59 PM	#8
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,325	Re: The Center of Existence Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, the earth is not the Center of Existence huh? How so? If the Universe is endless, then we must be in its center. In fact we always will be. Why? Because that's what existence is all about, being in the center of who we are ... If you told the bug under the rock that his little domain wasn't the center of the universe, do you think he'd get it? How could he? Else he'd have to concern himself with some other bug under some other rock in some other galaxy far far away, let alone the bug under a rock just two feet away! And do you think that would wash over? So, is it wrong to believe the earth is the center of the Universe then? Afterall, everything operates from within its center doesn't it? In fact if we understood this, we might understand that the Holy Land of all our mythologies is not someplace out there but, within us. Please, define which meaning of "center of the universe" you are using
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

18th April 2004, 09:43 PM	#9
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Loveland, CO, USA Posts: 1,628	Re: Re: The Center of Existence Quote: Originally posted by RussDill Please, define which meaning of "center of the universe" you are using The one where he's the star, a big spotlight shining on him, and roses fill the stage. Or I could be delusional? Kuroyume

19th April 2004, 01:35 AM	#10
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950	If you had any understanding of General Relativity, which alas you don't, you'd realize that any observer would view the universe as if he, she, and/or it were at the center.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,950

19th April 2004, 01:57 AM	#11
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,325	Quote: Originally posted by epepke If you had any understanding of General Relativity, which alas you don't, you'd realize that any observer would view the universe as if he, she, and/or it were at the center. assuming that every observer would view the universe as symetrical.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

19th April 2004, 02:28 AM	#12
Navigator Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,034

19th April 2004, 02:30 AM	#13
Navigator Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,034	Everthing which exist in this universe, must also be the center of the universe, since as you point out - the universe is (apparently) infinite. If super intelligence permeates All That Is - then it might even regard itself as being in the center. Thus all things intelligent to the point where they can regard such concepts, must also be in the center of the universe, and from this point of observation, would also (using the same intelligence) see all things as being center of the universe and ever expanding from that center. The point of the big bang could be regarded as the center of the universe. However, is this universe the center of the other universe? (Why would there not be other universes?) God is obviously The Scientist.

19th April 2004, 02:37 AM	#14
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by epepke If you had any understanding of General Relativity, which alas you don't, you'd realize that any observer would view the universe as if he, she, and/or it were at the center. Exactly! And do you know what else? Life originates from within the center. Or else it wouldn't be alive.

19th April 2004, 09:52 AM	#15
LizardPeople Muse Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 719	I don't know about the center of existence or the the center of the universe, but I've been to the center of the world. It's in Felicity, CA. See here
LizardPeople Muse Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 719	__________________ No longer welcome here

19th April 2004, 10:13 AM	#16
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by LizardPeople I don't know about the center of existence or the the center of the universe, but I've been to the center of the world. It's in Felicity, CA. See here Speaking of the Dragon at the Center of the World (inside the link you provided), it brings up the Great Red Dragon in Revelation 12, which gives rise to the Beast out of the Sea and the False Prophet in Revlevation 13. And we all know the number of the False Prophet don't we? What a coincidence (huh?) that your post count is about to turn to 666! Hmm ... Maybe it gives rise to the Dragons of Evolution (Dinosaurs), to which some of us strictly adhere? belief-wise that is.

19th April 2004, 11:26 PM	#17
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus What a coincidence (huh?) that your post count is about to turn to 666! And there you have it! ... By the way, did you know that time and space comes together in the here and now? And, that no matter where you go, you're there?

19th April 2004, 11:50 PM	#18
RussDill Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,325	If we live in an infinate, but boundless universe, then the "big bang" would occur at the center of the universe, and since that means that the big point occured at everypoint in the universe, it would follow that every point is the center of the universe. However, when spacetime and general relativity are applied, it no longer follows. With GR and spacetime, the universe was never "pointlike". The big bang occured in a region of spacetime. I digress, it still comes down to it being pointless to say phoenix is the center of the earth simply because the surface of the earth is boundless.
	__________________ The woods are lovely, dark and deep but i have promises to keep and lines to code before I sleep And lines to code before I sleep

19th April 2004, 11:56 PM	#19
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus And there you have it! ... By the way, did you know that time and space comes together in the here and now? And, that no matter where you go, you're there? "Remember; no matter where you go, there you are."- B. Banzai
Zep Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 26,985

20th April 2004, 01:34 AM	#20
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by RussDill If we live in an infinate, but boundless universe, then the "big bang" would occur at the center of the universe, and since that means that the big point occured at everypoint in the universe, it would follow that every point is the center of the universe. If it all began with the Big Bang, and everything continues to expand, what is it expanding into, besides boundlessness?

20th April 2004, 01:38 AM	#21
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,666	Quote: But I am in the center of the Universe, because the Universe is endless right? Or, would that be a way of saying God embraces everything? Hmm ... Nope, I am the center of the Universe. You are somewhere off in left field. And that would not at all be a way of saying God embraces everything. If you want to say God embraces everything, repeat after me " G O D e m b r a c e s e v e r y t h i n g" Got it? OK. Of course this is fiction, but it might make you feel better, out there in left field. Personally, I don't want anything churchy embracing anybody or anything around me. Ya just don't know where they have been lately. (see "Molesting for Spiritual Reasons" in the next thread over)
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

20th April 2004, 05:39 AM	#22
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus If it all began with the Big Bang, and everything continues to expand, what is it expanding into, besides boundlessness? Interesting question.... I believe the current theory based on all the data is that the Universe will expand forever, basically dying a big cold death. This is opposed to collapsing into itself in the Big Squeeze. But why get a little science mixed with this fantasy-island thread?

20th April 2004, 06:03 AM	#23
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs But why get a little science mixed with this fantasy-island thread? Why make such a big deal about Science when in fact we have all we need to sustain ourselves right here and now? It works for all the creatures on this planet, what makes us so special?

20th April 2004, 06:11 AM	#24
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Why make such a big deal about Science when in fact we have all we need to sustain ourselves right here and now? It works for all the creatures on this planet, what makes us so special? Are you sitting in a nice warm, insulated house? Got indoor running water and electricity? Using a sophisticated computer, hooked to a global network? Science. Isn't THAT obvious? Science allows you the LUXURY of philosophy. Otherwise, you'd be dressed in rags out in a mud field right now, planting potatoes. This assumes you're under the age of 45...

20th April 2004, 06:40 AM	#25
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs Are you sitting in a nice warm, insulated house? Got indoor running water and electricity? Using a sophisticated computer, hooked to a global network? Science. Isn't THAT obvious? Science allows you the LUXURY of philosophy. Otherwise, you'd be dressed in rags out in a mud field right now, planting potatoes. This assumes you're under the age of 45... But you didn't answer the question? What makes us so special? Especially if it's so hazardous to the environment? None of this seemed to bother the Native Americans a whole lot did it?

20th April 2004, 06:48 AM	#26
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus But you didn't answer the question? What makes us so special? Especially if it's so hazardous to the environment? None of this seemed to bother the Native Americans a whole lot did it? Who is "us"? Special in what way? What is hazardous to the environment? What do the Native Americans have to do with science or the center of the Universe? I'm sure someone has asked this before.... you do know what "science" means, right?

20th April 2004, 07:00 AM	#27
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs Who is "us"? Special in what way? What is hazardous to the environment? What do the Native Americans have to do with science or the center of the Universe? I'm sure someone has asked this before.... you do know what "science" means, right? Snug as a bug under the rug huh? That's amazing! We are the planet ... the planet is us. But we sure don't behave that way now do we?

20th April 2004, 07:08 AM	#28
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Snug as a bug under the rug huh? That's amazing! We are the planet ... the planet is us. But we don't behave that way now do we? So, if we remove humans from the planet... it, uh, disappears? What behavior? Are you afraid to answer any questions?

20th April 2004, 07:17 AM	#29
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by Navigator Everthing which exist in this universe, must also be the center of the universe, since as you point out - the universe is (apparently) infinite. Actually, that's not correct. Just because there's an infinite distance in all directions, doesn't mean that the distance is equal in all directions. Some infinities can be said to be greater than others. For instance, if I start at a point X and lay tiles in a north-south line through X. For every tile I lay to the north of X, I lay two tiles to the south. After a long day's work, I've put down an infinite number of tiles, and I go back to X to fetch my jacket. There's an infinitely long row of tiles stretching out through X, but X is not at the centre of the row: it lies an infinite distance north of the centre. Sure, the length of the row to the north of X is infinite, as is the length of the row to the south of X, but we also know that the length of the row to the south of X is twice as great as the row to the north. The cardinality of the southern infinity is greater than the cardinality of the northern infinity, so we're not at the centre. (Aren't infinities fun?)
Leif Roar Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,800	__________________ "Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005

20th April 2004, 07:20 AM	#30
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs So, if we remove humans from the planet... it, uh, disappears? No, it actually might reappear. Quote: What behavior? Externalized behavior. Quote: Are you afraid to answer any questions? Well actually you caught me in the comfort zone for moment, however, that still doesn't change what we're doing to the planet.

20th April 2004, 07:24 AM	#31
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus *Well actually you caught me in the comfort zone* for moment, however, that still doesn't change what we're doing to the planet.** And what are "we" doing?

20th April 2004, 07:28 AM	#32
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by DangerousBeliefs And what are "we" doing? Consuming, and devouring, as if there were no tomorrow. And why do we do that? ... because we're not satisfied. The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill, right? Even the apes seem happy dangling from the trees. What makes us so different then? Could it be that we have yet to discover happiness is an internal thing, as opposed to an external? It would sure save a lot of wear and tear on the planet if we weren't so greedy and materialistic about things wouldn't it?

20th April 2004, 07:52 AM	#33
DangerousBeliefs Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,304	Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Consuming, and devouring, as if there were no tomorrow. And why do we do that? ... because we're not satisfied. The grass is always greener on the other side of the hill, right? And we're not satisfied because.... we're the center of the Universe?

20th April 2004, 07:59 AM	#34
Nyarlathotep Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 7,514	Re: The Center of Existence Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus So, the earth is not the Center of Existence huh? How so? If the Universe is endless, then we must be in its center. In fact we always will be. Why? Because that's what existence is all about, being in the center of who we are ... If you told the bug under the rock that his little domain wasn't the center of the universe, do you think he'd get it? How could he? Else he'd have to concern himself with some other bug under some other rock in some other galaxy far far away, let alone the bug under a rock just two feet away! And do you think that would wash over? For a change I think you are on to something. Wherever you are is going to seem like the center of the universe to you. Though I would file it under "mildly interesting observations" rather than "profound philosophical truths." Quote: So, is it wrong to believe the earth is the center of the Universe then? Afterall, everything operates from within its center doesn't it? In fact if we understood this, we might understand that the Holy Land of all our mythologies is not someplace out there but, within us. oops, now you lost it and veered straight into la-la land again. too bad.
	__________________ Why stay sane in a sick world?

20th April 2004, 08:18 AM	#35
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Quote: Originally posted by Nyarlathotep For a change I think you are on to something. Wherever you are is going to seem like the center of the universe to you. Though I would file it under "mildly interesting observations" rather than "profound philosophical truths." oops, now you lost it and veered straight into la-la land again. too bad. Did you read Joseph Campbell's take on Black Elk's vision above? ... Quote: Originally posted by Iacchus Excerpt from Joseph Campbell's, The Power of Myth ... The vision of Black Elk ... He says, "I saw myself on the central mountain of the world, the highest place, and I had a vision because I was seeing in the sacred manner of the world." And the sacred central mountain was Harney Peak in South Dakota. And then he says, "But the central mountain is everywhere." That is a real mythological realization. It distinguishes between the local cult image, Harney Peak, and its connotation as the center of the world. The center of the world is the axis mundi, the central point, the pole around which all revolves. The central point of the world is the point where stillness and movement are together. Movement is time, but stillness is eternity. Realizing how this moment of your life is actually a moment of eternity, and experiencing the eternal aspect of what you're doing in the temporal experience -- this is the mythological experience. Now that's what I call profound.