"blueberry" fossils found on Mars

[American]

http://www.xenotechresearch.com/marsindx.htm

Sir Charles W. Shults III is studying data sent by the Mars robots we sent there couple a months ago. He has found and will soon announce small fossil-like formations, that can only be described as mineralized organic sea creatures. So far he has found sandollars, sponges, and sea urchins.

Quote:

In particular, the "blueberries" are the fossil remains of a type of sea urchin, similar to fossils found on Earth. Examination of the rock and material around the crater (nicknamed the "blueberry bowl" by NASA and JPL scientists) shows other, far more advanced life forms as well, including trilobites, squids, eurypterids, crinoids, and other ancient species.

Part of the proof is that the fossils have 5-sided symetry (both sides), and there are no natural 5-sided crystals in nature. Also, some of the markings on these organisms like starfish are proportional to their size, which suggest they grow with them as the creature grows. (A baby is the same shape as a grown man or woman.)

If confirmed, this has profound implications and will change our entire life's view back here on earth.

[Silicon]

"rabbit", "man's face" found carved in Moon.

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by American
If confirmed, this has profound implications and will change our entire life's view back here on earth.

It certainly would, but the chances of it being confirmed are miniscule. If there had been oceans on Mars, there would be a whole lot more evidence than odd shaped rocks. There would be layered sedimentary rocks and most probably salt deposits, but nothing of the sort has been found.

Also, those pictures so no sort of recognizable symmetrical features. They are merely round, which is rather a common shape in the universe.

Nor do I see on the site any mention of the author's scientific credentials. I find it difficult to believe that he is that much smarter than all the legitimate scientists studying these images. In fact, everything about that site screams "kook".

Perhaps the disklike objects are actually wheels of green cheese.

[Mr Manifesto]

Quote:

Originally posted by Tricky

It certainly would, but the chances of it being confirmed are miniscule. If there had been oceans on Mars, there would be a whole lot more evidence than odd shaped rocks. There would be layered sedimentary rocks and most probably salt deposits, but nothing of the sort has been found.

Also, those pictures so no sort of recognizable symmetrical features. They are merely round, which is rather a common shape in the universe.

Nor do I see on the site any mention of the author's scientific credentials. I find it difficult to believe that he is that much smarter than all the legitimate scientists studying these images. In fact, everything about that site screams "kook".

Perhaps the disklike objects are actually wheels of green cheese.

REO Speedwagon wheels?

[clk]

Statue of Elton John copying REO Speedwagon found on Mars!!!!

[clk]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


REO Speedwagon wheels?

Damn, you beat me to it!

Oh well, atleast my post contained a link so that people could see what I was referring to

[American]

He's a doctor.

[Silicon]

Come on, he isn't even a knight.

[NightG1]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


REO Speedwagon wheels?

Only if they Keep on Roll'in, Keep on Roll'in.

[pupdog]

Are the "blueberries" the same as the spherules reported on last month, that appear to be concretions? They're pretty interesting, in that, together with other evidence, they suggest the presence of water on Mars.

[clk]

Quote:

Originally posted by American
He's a doctor.

He must be a Doctor of Stupidity, like you.

[American]

Quote:

Originally posted by pupdog
Are the "blueberries" the same as the spherules reported on last month, that appear to be concretions? They're pretty interesting, in that, together with other evidence, they suggest the presence of water on Mars.

Ah good question. Like Dr. Sir Shults 3, I think they probly aren't, because NASA would have announced it by now. This is new stuff that ain't been done yet.

Hey- if we're wrong, we're wrong. No big deal.

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by American
He's a doctor.

"I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!"
Just thought I'd throw that in.

[Silicon]

And by "we" do you mean you and the fake Knight?



You do know that Sir Elton John is a real Knight, right?

[Nigel]

Okay, seriously, I have a question - is it possible for terrestrial squids to fossilize? This guy even says, "Close examination will show a double row of suckers on some tentacle pads..."
http://www.xenotechresearch.com/mk065a.htm

Since tentacle pads, and I presume, the entire squid body, is soft tissue, is it even possible for this to happen? It seems pretty outlandish to me to expect soft tissue like that to be preserved. (Although imprints of dinosaur skin have fossilized, it's true, and bird feathers [archaeopteryx, for instance], as well, it's still exceedingly rare.)

edit to add: I've answered my own question - I googled "fossil squid" and found this link:

http://www.bhigr.com/pages/info/info_sqid.htm
Fossil squids are the only cephalopods whose preserved soft body parts have been discovered with the exception of one fossil octopus specimen found in Lebanon in the late 1800?s.

So that answers thatquestion. But I'm still not convinced that the rock(s) in question on Mars are fossil anything. Other than rocks, of course.

[Hand Bent Spoon]

Maybe they can change their name from 'Xenotech Research' to 'Xenotech Obfuscation'.

I await news on where he got his paleontology degree. He does have a paleontology degree, right?

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hand Bent Spoon
Maybe they can change their name from 'Xenotech Research' to 'Xenotech Obfuscation'.

I await news on where he got his paleontology degree. He does have a paleontology degree, right?

I just glanced at the site so I could have missed it, but I don't think he gave any credentials, did he? Much less something as specific as where he earned a paleontology degree.

[American]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nigel
Okay, seriously, I have a question - is it possible for terrestrial squids to fossilize? This guy even says, "Close examination will show a double row of suckers on some tentacle pads..."

You forgot- this is Mars.

Quote:

Since tentacle pads, and I presume, the entire squid body, is soft tissue, is it even possible for this to happen?

On Mars? Maybe.

Quote:

edit to add: I've answered my own question - I googled "fossil squid" and found this link:

http://www.bhigr.com/pages/info/info_sqid.htm
Fossil squids are the only cephalopods whose preserved soft body parts have been discovered with the exception of one fossil octopus specimen found in Lebanon in the late 1800?s.

So that answers thatquestion. But I'm still not convinced that the rock(s) in question on Mars are fossil anything. Other than rocks, of course.

That's on Earth. This is Mars we are talking about.

[Theodore Kurita]

Quote:

Originally posted by American

You forgot- this is Mars.


On Mars? Maybe.


That's on Earth. This is Mars we are talking about.

American, the process would still be the same in identifying fossils, whether it be Mars or Earth, it doesn't really matter. You aren't using any critically thinking on this one in the first place. That, and you are already resorting to arguments of authority, a logical fallacy.


[Constructive Criticism}

It is bouts like this, and your lack of critical thinking that gets you into these thread messes in the first place.

That, and you have shown obvious cultural bias. If you really want to critically think, you most eliminate all cultural and political biases before doing so.


[/Constructive Criticism]



In other words:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32963

[fishbob]

Quote:

http://www.xenotechresearch.com/marsindx.htm

OK, I have master's degree in Science.

I took a look at some of the photos at this site. Scale was not shown on any photo, no magnifications were noted. Many of the images are blurry. The sharp images don't get identified as fossils, the blurry shots have all the fossils. The photo noted as showing 5-sided symmetry does not show 5-sided symmetry.

Dr. Shults was identifying earthly fossils, on Mars, from fuzzy internet photos, therefore Dr. Shults smokes crack. QED.

Quote:

3. Why does the "mud" look so rounded and smooth?

Because Mars had almost no atmosphere when these were made- the mud was "vacuum boiling" in the very low atmospheric pressure. Look at the broken off areas and you can see very fine bubbles all over in the mud.

The subjects in some of these photos look similar to rocks in arid earthly regions that have a 'desert varnish' polish - resulting from wind abrasion over many years.

[Tricky]

Quote:

Originally posted by American


That's on Earth. This is Mars we are talking about.

Yes it is, but the "Doctor" is trying to draw analogies to terrestrial marine species. If he thinks these are evidence of former oceans on mars, then one must ask why we do not see any of the other signs of previous oceans on Mars, which would be very obvious to even the beginning student in geology.

So what does this "doctor" have his degree in? In what way is he qualified to evaluate geology or paleontology or comparitive anatomy or any scientific dicipline. For all the information we have, he might be a doctor of divinity.

Since nothing on his site even hints of anything more than a picture-book knowledge of science, I'd have to take everything he says with an enormous grain of salt.

As I said earlier, it is possible he is correct, but that possibility is vanishingly small. Do not be surprised if his "discoveries" do not change our entire life's view one iota.

[RandFan]

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbob
OK, I have master's degree in Science.

I took a look at some of the photos at this site. Scale was not shown on any photo, no magnifications were noted. Many of the images are blurry. The sharp images don't get identified as fossils, the blurry shots have all the fossils. The photo noted as showing 5-sided symmetry does not show 5-sided symmetry.

Thank you, I hate to defer to authority but, damn it, I just lack the education and ability to make such a statement. I thought the very same thing but I just didn't have the confidence or experience to back it up.

When I watch the discovery channel and some paleontologist digs up a bone and right away figures out what it is I am simply amazed. Now I know these guys are not perfect but damn they are good.

Here is my toast to scientists. And yes, I realize that it doesn't require a degree in Science to make such observations with the same degree of confidence. I think it very possible that Randi or others could make such a pronouncement.

RandFan

P.S. Would fossil evidence prove Jedi Knights theory that humans came from mars?

[scribble]

I for one welcome our new mighty Sea Urchin masters!

[CFLarsen]

Aren't fossils the remains of animals and plants, preserved usually only as impressions - similar to plaster casts?

Why would a fossil be found on grainy sand, and not, as usually is the case here on Earth, deeply embedded in rocks?

Fossils on Earth are much softer than the rocks that embed them, so why would the wind/sand erode the hard rocks, but leave the soft fossil?

If, on the other hand, you think of rocks, sanded down - in this case, literally, what shape would you get?

Yup: Nice, round, but not necessarily perfectly round.

Incidentally, Manganese nodules.....

[fishbob]

Quote:

Aren't fossils the remains of animals and plants, preserved usually only as impressions - similar to plaster casts?

Why would a fossil be found on grainy sand, and not, as usually is the case here on Earth, deeply embedded in rocks?

Fossils on Earth are much softer than the rocks that embed them, so why would the wind/sand erode the hard rocks, but leave the soft fossil?

1 - Sometimes, but more commonly, replacement of organic material by minerals.

2 - Even on Earth, the rock matrix can erode away and leave fossils. Sometimes.

3 - Nope, fossils are most often the same hardness as the embedding rocks. Can be harder (phosphatized or silicified fossils), very seldom softer.

[Nigel]

When I just read American's response to my post - "You forgot- this is Mars", I was going to respond, then I read others who not only could put it better than I, but did. Thank you.

I was going to say that if Mars had a liquid (water) ocean, and similar life (squid, sand dollars, etc.), is there a reason the fossilizing process would be different? One thing I've learned is parallel problems, parallel solutions. Or am I missing something?

But since I don't have a degree, I defer to fishbob's authority in this case - and he certainly makes a good argument, in that the "fossils" are distinguished only (and if not only, then mostly) in the fuzzy photos. When I looked at the "squid" fossil, I saw nothing until I looked at the outline. I was immediately reminded of backmasking tapes, where you hear gibberish until you're told what to listen for. Then you say, "Holy cow! That's right! How did I miss it before?"

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nigel
When I looked at the "squid" fossil, I saw nothing until I looked at the outline. I was immediately reminded of backmasking tapes, where you hear gibberish until you're told what to listen for. Then you say, "Holy cow! That's right! How did I miss it before?"

Hmm.

I looked at the "unenhanced" photo and thought the squid looked quite clear.

Then I looked at the "enhanced" version with the outlines, and realised that I was looking in completely the wrong place, and at completely the wrong markings.

I wonder where Icantakepicturesofdemons would stand on this issue?

[Hutch]

Just a suggestion, the Bad Astronomy Bulletin Board (www.badastronomy.com) has a section devoted to "Martian Chronicles", with threads and pictures regarding the blueberries and other things supposedly sited in the NASA pictures. Very informative, IMHO.

End of plug.

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbob
1 - Sometimes, but more commonly, replacement of organic material by minerals.

Well, that's what I meant! You just said it better.

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbob
2 - Even on Earth, the rock matrix can erode away and leave fossils. Sometimes.

Really? Never heard of that.

"The Rock Matrix"....sounds like Keanu Reeves made of stone. Wait. He is!

Quote:

Originally posted by fishbob
3 - Nope, fossils are most often the same hardness as the embedding rocks. Can be harder (phosphatized or silicified fossils), very seldom softer.

Hm. I stand corrected.

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm


Hmm.

I looked at the "unenhanced" photo and thought the squid looked quite clear.

Then I looked at the "enhanced" version with the outlines, and realised that I was looking in completely the wrong place, and at completely the wrong markings.

I wonder where Icantakepicturesofdemons would stand on this issue?

[smartaleck remark]I think I can say, without a doubt, unequivocally, that someone, somewhere, is wrong. [/smartaleck remark]

[Skeptical Greg]

Quote:

Originally posted by Silicon


You do know that Sir Elton John is a real Knight, right?

With a real sword, and everything?

Do real Knights name their swords like ' Excalibur ' or ' Hrunting ' ?

Do you have any idea what Elton may have named his sword?

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes
Do you have any idea what Elton may have named his sword?

Pardon me, but do you have a license to carry a loaded question??

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes
Do you have any idea what Elton may have named his sword?

Pardon me, but do you have a license to carry a loaded question??

[Nigel]

I apologize for the double post. Technical glitch (on whose part, I won't say.)

[Fidelio]

<--------The (soon to be) famous Mars Opossum.

From here.

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fidelio
<--------The (soon to be) famous Mars Opossum.

From here.

I don't know, looks more like a chipmunk, or maybe a hamster to me.

[Silicon]

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes
Do you have any idea what Elton may have named his sword?

Captain Fantastic?

[pgwenthold]

Quote:

Originally posted by Diogenes


With a real sword, and everything?

Do real Knights name their swords like ' Excalibur ' or ' Hrunting ' ?

Do you have any idea what Elton may have named his sword?

He named his sword Jesus, because he likes the na-ame...

[Nigel]

Quote:

Originally posted by Silicon


Captain Fantastic?

Not the Brown Dirt Cowboy?

[Frostbite]

Holy crap I love this thread.