Help Christian alert

[andycal]

I'm in deep schtum. Someone I've been working with for a long time turns out to be a born again Christian at a happy clappy church. Although I've kicked most conversations into touch, I'm being pressured to answer a bunch of questions.

I haven't got my copy of P&T's Bull**t DVD to hand, but I remember here there was something about a leaflet handed out at a christian camp that a kid had answered quite well. I think this was in a Swift, but I can't find it.

Anyone remember what it was?

[Garrette]

Go to the January 16 Swift and read about Jacob Spinney. There is also a link to his page. I think that's the leaflet you're talking about.

[andycal]

Cheers Garrette, that's the one - off to fight the good fight...

[Z]

Beat the faith, brother! Or was that keep the faith at bay? I always get those messed up...

[Soapy Sam]

Andycal- Is this person attacking you in some way?
Are you a Satanist or Zoroastrian for instance?

To quote Richard Feynmann- "What do you care what other people think?"

Unless he is being a nuisance, I counsel tolerance, with humour.
Believe me, you won't reason him out of it. Don't waste your time worrying about his life. Get on with living yours.

[andycal]

Nope - not attacking, in fact, it's a very delicate situation in that I work with this guy quite closley.

The reason I need the backup is I am having various bull claims leveled at me, just today I had "the fossil record proves nothing" and "carbon dating is inaccurate" and "I believe in a young earth theory".

I'm all for a certain amount of tollerance, but he's just talking crap. He exepects me to take it, and I won't. Neither will I go on the offensive, I'm just not going to be lectured too as if I'm the one needing educating.

I've had this all my life. I have been an atheist, non-theiest or whatever since I can remember. I've never believed. And this has got me funny looks, people saying "Ahh that's a shame" etc and I've kinda put up with it.

No more. I'm fed up with laying down and taking this crap.

[chmara]

Let me refer you to the analogy of the cave...(Plato?).

One man is free of the shackles that keep the rest of the population inside a cave -- where all they can see -- because of the way they are chained -- are their shadows on the walls.

The loan free man describes the world he sees in his freedom to the chained -- and first they disbelieve, then curse him. It becomes his choice to be silent and still partake of their society, to risk the pain of death if he continues to communicate what he sees as reality -- or to have his eyes taken out. (Why the option of leaving the cave to find new society is not presented, I do not know.)

Is this where you might be in relationship to this fellow worker?

[Soapy Sam]

Andycal- If I may quote you- "I've had this all my life. I have been an atheist, non-theiest or whatever since I can remember. I've never believed. And this has got me funny looks, people saying "Ahh that's a shame" etc and I've kinda put up with it.

No more. I'm fed up with laying down and taking this crap."

I find this strange. I'm 49 and have been an atheist since I was seven. I've had some arguments, but never these sort of looks or comments.

The arguments stopped about 30 years ago, when I realised I had no interest in debating nonsense with crackpots. I suggest you compile a list of basic science texts and writings by such people as Darwin, Lyell, Dawkins, Sagan et al. When your colleague starts being a pain, simply hand him the list, with the advice that when he has read and understood the data therein, (Understood it. He need not accept it.), then you will be prepared to listen to his opinions. Until then, you have no interest in hearing his bronze age nonsense and would be obliged if he bored someone else.

Strained politeness, coupled with clear contempt may be more effective than argument.
Decide though, whether you simply want rid of this pest, or you want to educate him.

[Jeff Corey]

I find that, "That's strange. Why would you expect me to believe that?" suffices.

[Soapy Sam]

Yes. That's worth trying. Simple disbelief, dismissing the very idea as self evidently silly.

[Zep]

Use the skeptics' favourite question - WHY.

Why is what you say so?

Why does all the available scientific evidence refute what you claim?

Why are you dismissing all that evidence contrary to your claim?

Why do you need to convince me of your claim?

Why would you need to convince ANYONE of your claim?

Why have you brought this issue up now after 30 years?

Etc, etc.

[NightG1]

A long time ago, I was on the "other side" of this debate fully convinced the earth was 10,000 years old and that anyone who wasn't "saved" was going to end up in a place called "hell". I know these people fairly well and they will probably not respond to educated reason. All you can do is tell this person you make it a point to never discuss religion at work. Don't explain why just tell him you choose not to and leave it at that. If he persists, remind him of your statement and tell him to stop. Don't back down and ask him to stop - tell him to stop. If this does not work, you can up the anti and tell your boss. I figure one gentle and one stern warning is about enough.

Also, do not address any of his points -- ignore them. This will only give him the impression you want to argue which is want he wants.

[andycal]

Quote:

Originally posted by chmara
...
Is this where you might be in relationship to this fellow worker?

Yes - spot on, although to be fair, I'm in the dominant position - it's my company and he wants to be a part of it. Thing is, do I put capitalism above principle? More to think on...

Quote:

No more. I'm fed up with laying down and taking this crap."

I find this strange. I'm 49 and have been an atheist since I was seven. I've had some arguments, but never these sort of looks or comments.

First off, I read my post again and it sounded a bit 'ranty'. Well, it was how I was feeling at the time so no apologies there. The reason I was up in arms is not just due to this particular discovery I made yesterday, it was also due to my family.

I'll explain...

My Mother is going through a rough time at the moment, and is extremely vulnerable. She's been going to a health farm locally where they sometimes practice the weird and the wonderful. I decided to keep an eye on things (like a good son should!) when she mentioned that they did 'remote healing'.

I pulled her away from that one pretty quickly. However she's been dragged back in - recently having one of those de-tox foot spa things. It's scary.

Then along comes a relative to comfort her. Seems she's found God, and was really effected by this Passion of the Christ crap and when I tried to offer an opposing view - I got the hand and closed eyes.

It's ok for me to simply look away and try to ignore these people, but when it effects someone close - it gets me.

It truely gets me down when these people offer god as an answer to all life's ill's when really, all people want is a chat and somone to talk to. Perhaps a beer.

Anyway, thanks for all the comments, I've picked up my Dawkins book again and will make notes this time.

[Soapy Sam]

I can see why you are upset. When my father died, the people who upset my mother most were two genuinely sincere believers, who wanted her to pray with them. Under severe stress already, she was forced to be polite to them. I was impressed by her self control.
The cynical conmen are easy to handle, but people who are actually well meaning can be the worst, as it's hard to be brusque with them.

[thaiboxerken]

You could tell this guy that he's stupid for believing in such nonsense. OR.. you could start talking to him about how Scientology could help his personality. Maybe if you give him ideas that are equally absurd, but different from his, and he doubts them.. you can then pop the "why is your belief more valid?" question.

Then again....... reason, logic and facts never really bother these people.

[andycal]

When we started chatting and we played the "Guess the religion" game, I asked if he was Jahovas Witness, and he said "Are you joking, they're nuts"...

Hi kettle, this is the pot calling....

[thaiboxerken]

Yep, it's fascinating to see believers call those particular irrational beliefs that they don't believe in as nuts. It's like the "who's the real medium" debate. These people refuse to see their own beliefs as irrational or nuts.

[chmara]

When most people feel out of control of any situation -- they first hope for the best -- and often grab at superstitious straws to get them through the situation (period of government, war, accident heaiing) with best result. This is much like a horse racing affacionado crossing his fingers in the home stretch.

If things turn out well -- and the persons (nation, team, state) prevail -- it seems pompous of them to be proud of their own fortitude so often they give thanks to an unknown or unseen force because they (and their team, government, doctors) could not have had the intellect, intellegence of skill to resolve the situation -- having demonstrated their mortality and error in many other ways.

So, is it not logical that this superstitious giving credit to spiritual resources continues to curry favor with them so they will prevent or at least help in the next desperate situation?

My feeling it is that this childlike thinking (which often arises to permit individuals to further tap their own resources for working for good outcome in bad situations allows them not to feel isolated but may prevent them from seeing or seeking the resources in and around them in a direct manner.

Educated clergy know the importance of connecting the persoon in trouble with real life resources beyond meditation and isolated prayer -- which may be adjuncts to the real life problem solving they may lead their followers through.

However, too many "clergy" today are not well educated. They allow superstitious belief to preclude the use or real life problem solving -- and base this on dogma. (Note the Jehovah's Witnesses use of blood in life saving -- or the Christian Science use of antibiotics.)

If it is a given we all die -- and you and I believe that death really does end our personality and mark a ceasement to our direct personal contributions to mankind -- that challenges belief in many religions. It exacerbates their fear of being alone -- in decision making, in life and in "coming through" OK. To many people, this fear in unbearable. To you and I, possibly, it means we must strive harder to make life better.

So -- is it better to challenge this fellow's fears. or to raise him above fear? It is a slow, educational process to raise anyone from superstition and fear, and that education is met with resistance at every turn. After all, we are not privy to the "secret" knowledge of an afterlife -- so plainly set befoire us in the holy books (of whatever stripe they may be.)

If you are the owner of the company -- it becomes you to avoid discussion of things religious, unless the individual brings up actual work in that context. And do not let your internal guards turn your noticing of glances, etc. into condemnation. Rather -- you might query why that glance or comment was offered. Consider that your action may be something other than religion that has bothered this individual.

Also, please realize, that like your mother, individuals feeling unsure can be be dragged into a "spiritual" or religious mode that allows them to cope with their fears. If you indeed are considering terminating this relationship with your co-worker because of your "guilt" in his glances, or because he is actively prosletizing you or your customers on the job, would not he/she sense this and give rise to a new level of fear?

If you are the owner/supervisor, it is up to you to set the ground rules in business, but do not let this cross into your personal belief/life or his.

Maybe he feels, as does my brother-in-law by social adoption -- there are no atheists because we all believe in something. It is a very sloppy definition of atheism and a very misunderstood idea of belief that allows him to utter these incredibly stupid words.

I would also recommend you read Schermer's new book, the SCIENCE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

[Robin]

I am not sure if you are still looking for suggestions. I envy you, if someone asked me those questions I would be making a big pot of coffee and settling in for a long and in depth conversation.

You have every right to put your point of view but I would recommend not taking the path of science. Unless you each have an equal and sufficient technical knowledge it tends to degrade into an unwinnable cycle of "my gobbledegook is better than your gobbledegook".

Much better to discover his bible version of choice and go through Genesis and find out if he buys it all literally.

You may already know this book but a good starting point is chapters 1 and 2 which give conflicting accounts of the order of creation "Animals then man and woman" in chapter 1 and "Man, Animals, Woman" in chapter 2.

The Noah story is of course a good way of countering biblical literalism. You might start by pointing out how many species of land and fresh water creatures there are (millions) then ask how quickly Noah's family would have collected the species, bearing in mind that travel was by animal or foot in those days.

You can continue with the sheer ethics of the whole enterprise, the violent murder of every man, woman and child on the planet.

I am sure that you can find many other points around this and other sites.

My guess (from experience) is that he will make and excuse to be somewhere else after the first 15 minutes and will never bother you again about matters religious.

Good luck.

[andycal]

Cheers Robin.

I've often thought though, one big fat argument that means they'll always win is "It was possible because it was God". i.e. it wasn't a problem making a boat out of wood 3 miles by 6 miles and filling it with everything on eart, 'cos God did the buildin' and God did the herdin'.

etc.

Ah well, we've actually returned to humour now and I think we're living with each other's differences quite well.

Even though he's sooo wrong!

[DrMatt]

Unless the nuisance is in a court of law, I've generally found it more productive to smirk and walk away in boredom from evangelists.

[Batman Jr.]

Andycal,

I've had to put up with religious crap all my life too. Know that you're at least in good company in your disbelief.

What I really hate about these kinds of people is that they always "thank God" for every nice thing that's ever happened to them. For instance, according to most residents of Macon, Mississippi, Thomas Hamill managed to escape from his captors alive because of the succor that the "Lord Almighty" had provided him with. Really? So I guess those other 4 contractors that had their bodies mutilated and hung from a bridge plus those 700 odd dead American soldiers didn't prove themselves worthy enough to be able to fall under the purview of His "good will."

[Fungrim]

Quote:

Originally posted by Batman Jr.
So I guess those other 4 contractors that had their bodies mutilated and hung from a bridge plus those 700 odd dead American soldiers didn't prove themselves worthy enough to be able to fall under the purview of His "good will."

Which is of course a valid philosophical point, but one that I doubt the believers will find attractive. You see: the bad things were done by the devil and the good things by god. However, depending on the persons you discuss with you may actually have a foot hold there as well. The people I grew up with would by uncomfortable attributing all evil on the devil and would probably argue that man is fully capable of doing those things himself. And possibly you could try to get them to quantify that argument. Where do the acts of man stop and those of god continue? How can you tell the difference?

The only approach I've found helpful last couple of years is to be as humble as possible. To most Christians their belief is not an intellectual matter, it is a matter of social context. The religion gives them a secure haven and a well known etiquette they and their friends can follow. With such persons aggressive discussion will probably not amount to anything. If they do want a discussion though, I think it is important to show them that the reason you agree to discuss it is 1) they asked; and 2) you care about them.

When I discuss with Christians my goal is simple: get them to think one independent thought while remaining humble. It will take time but I may eventually get them to think critically about religion. And from there on...

[chmara]

Fungrim, you have hit the nail on the head. Patience and long suffering are the keys to opening fundie eyes. These are traits preached -- but not practiced -- by many Christian groups. The modern pace of the world seems to demand THEY make instant conversions -- that they must bring about your road to Damascus experience.

Let me propose an extension of your idea -- as a person who suffered through years of searching for the "true religion" and practicing a few on the way.

In Mormonism there is a practice -- almost doctrinal -- that has won them many subjects. It boils down to this -- "How will you know (XXXXX) is true unless you try living it and praying about it for a substantial period of time. Do this and your eyes will be opened."

Well -- I did try Mormonism -- and my eyes were opened. It took a good drying out period for me to get over that cult -- much to the chagrine of one of my sons, who did a Mormon Mission in Italy without my support.

In that state of "trying" an active profession of faith becomes a mantra -- one which cuts off critical thinking. It becomes the knee jerk reaction that starts with the active attribution of all good to God -- and all downsides to something, or being or force other than self or nature.

That means to attack attrribution to God is to attack the individual and their system of belief very personally.

Most people react badly to attach -- and stiffen. But -- if we consider erosion built the Grand Canyon in the US -- and Chinese water torture has cracked open more psyches that all the Freudians (combined) ever dreamed of -----

GC

[Fungrim]

Quote:

Originally posted by chmara
"How will you know (XXXXX) is true unless you try living it."

Hmm. I like that argument. Especially as I immediately can answer: "I have. For 16 years I have. Have you tried mine?"