Merged: In Case you missed it Dylan Avery admits he was wrong (sort of)

[Björn Toulouse]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

He never said it was "beyond the abilities of an organization that was at the head of the most powerful nation on the planet".
MM

Originally Posted by Slate article

He thinks that while orchestrating the attacks was beyond the scope of the Bush administration

Scope definition: extent or range of view, outlook, application, operation, effectiveness,opportunity for operation:

What was your take on the use of the word "scope"? You think it was Avery's word or Stahl's?

If the objection isn't about the definition of scope vs abilities then it must be about the second part of the sentence - Bush administration vs "organization that was at the head of the most powerful nation on the planet".

If the Bush administration did not plan or implement the "controlled demolitions" on 9/11, whom do you suppose could have?

[Miragememories]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

"This coming from someone who can't read? Beachnut said Dylan WROTE the piece as fiction yet you argue that fact by saying it was never RELEASED as anything but a documentary. Little tiny change in the wording that you think will sway the reader.

Again, how's your foot taste?

Look at the facts:

1. Dylan says it was written as fiction
2. It was "revised" I don't know how many times and had pieces removed in each revision
3. Dylan admits he didn't have hardly any information NOR did he actually talk to people

Yet you want to classify it as a "documentary". Outstanding..."

It sounds like you could use some lessons in reading.

http://www.loosechange911.com/about/faq/

Originally Posted by Loose Change Fact Sheet

"The original “Loose Change” film was developed purely by accident, as the director Dylan Avery, was researching a different project."

http://www.loosechange911.com/about/

Originally Posted by Dylan Avery & Korey Rowe

"We have always attempted to better our films and ourselves, as both filmmakers and individuals, and refine our arguments wherever possible. We have tried our best to avoid controversial or speculative topics and have made an effort to focus only on subjects we could prove as fact, supported either by hard, physical evidence, massive amounts of corroborating eyewitness testimony or both.....We are not dealing with conspiracy theories. We are dealing with facts. We are asking for the Truth and our requests will not cease until they are legitimately met. Until then, we must continue to ask questions and demand answers."

MM

[Triterope]

MM, what the hell is your point? That Dylan Avery can contradict himself over a period of several years?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

He never said it was "beyond the abilities of an organization that was at the head of the most powerful nation on the planet".

Uhh, yeah... he did. Not in those exact words, of course, but that's the meaning of "beyond the scope of the Bush administration".

Do have a different interpretation? Please enlighten us.

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

It sounds like you could use some lessons in reading.

You're goofy. He started out writing a fictional piece and as time went on, it turned into something else. It wasn't a completely different project like you are leading people to believe. Here is a quote taken from this link: http://www.villagevoice.com/2006-02-...the-seekers/2/

Quote:

Around the same time, Dylan Avery was completing a job as a helper on the construction of a new restaurant for James Gandolfini. He tended bar at the opening party, and when he got a few minutes alone with the Sopranos actor, he said he'd thought he might like to direct films. "James said, 'If you want to be a successful director, you've got to have something you want to say to the whole world,' " Avery remembers. He set out to write a fictional story about discovering that 9-11 was an inside job. "Upon researching the movie, I began to think maybe it was true," he says.

No matter how you slice it MM, the movie's life began as a fictional piece and evolved into a "documentary". PERIOD. You can spin it any way you like to try and make yourself look right, but you won't succeed.

Read the following that you posted from Corey and Dylan:

Quote:

"We have always attempted to better our films and ourselves, as both filmmakers and individuals, and refine our arguments wherever possible. We have tried our best to avoid controversial or speculative topics and have made an effort to focus only on subjects we could prove as fact, supported either by hard, physical evidence, massive amounts of corroborating eyewitness testimony or both.....We are not dealing with conspiracy theories. We are dealing with facts. We are asking for the Truth and our requests will not cease until they are legitimately met. Until then, we must continue to ask questions and demand answers."

Dealing with FACTS??? REALLY? If there were 100% facts in their move, why did they have to go back and remove certain claims? How many times??? Facts my rear end...

Get some reading glasses.

[Gamolon]

So tell me something MM, according to your posted quote from Corey and Dylan...

Quote:

..We have tried our best to avoid controversial or speculative topics and have made an effort to focus only on subjects we could prove as fact,...

...does this mean that they were mistaken about those "proven facts" that were removed from the subsequent releases of their film?

[Triterope]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

He started out writing a fictional piece and as time went on, it turned into something else.

The movie's life began as a fictional piece and evolved into a "documentary". PERIOD.

Wow, is that what MM is arguing? That this isn't what happened? Sheesh. Loose Change starting out as a fiction piece and evolving into a "non-fiction" piece as Dylan Avery came to believe the conspiracy is such a well established part of its history that... my God, I don't even know how to finish that sentence.

Then again, these are people who can argue with a straight face that there were no planes at the WTC site. I guess nothing is too obvious or too well-documented for a 9-11 Truther.

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Triterope

Wow, is that what MM is arguing? That this isn't what happened? Sheesh. Loose Change starting out as a fiction piece and evolving into a "non-fiction" piece as Dylan Avery came to believe the conspiracy is such a well established part of its history that... my God, I don't even know how to finish that sentence.

Then again, these are people who can argue with a straight face that there were no planes at the WTC site. I guess nothing is too obvious or too well-documented for a 9-11 Truther.

Mind boggling isn't it?

[Triterope]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

Mind boggling isn't it?

It really is.

When you debate with someone, you make certain assumptions. You assume the basic facts of the matter, and that terms mean what they mean in common usage. Not 9/11 Truthers. EVERYTHING is open to debate and subject to interpretation. The five-page argument about "into" vs. "onto" is an example. MM's denial of the basic history of Loose Change in this thread is another.

The no-planers are the best example. To suggest that no planes were involved in 9-11 rejects the facts on such a fundamental level that you could make the case that such a discussion isn't really about 9-11 at all. Because 9-11, by any sane person's definition, had planes in it. Arguing what would happen in a 9-11 with no planes in it is like, to use Stellafane's great phrase, arguing whether Batman could kick Spiderman's ass.

This is what makes Truthers so infuriating to deal with. You argue with them based on certain assumptions, and they'll go and deny one of the assumptions. You could be in the midst of a reasonable discussion about how a building should react when a passenger jet full of fuel hits it, and they'll start theorizing that the buildings were destroyed by explosives instead. By throwing out one of the assumptions halfway through the discussion, they render the entire discussion moot.

But that's also their downfall. Any uninitiated person who gets into a debate with a Truther quickly realizes it's just an endless game of moving goalposts, with no terra firma to return to.

[Miragememories]

Okay children.

One last time and I'll leave you to play in your sandbox.

9/11 was a major world interest event. TRUE

Realizing how great was the public interest, Dylan Avery originally did research to make a fictional story based on the events of 9/11. TRUE

While doing his research Dylan discovered so many anomalies that undermined the Official Conspiracy Theory that he no longer believed it to be true. TRUE

At this point, Dylan Avery decided to abandon the fictional work and make a documentary based on the factual material he discovered during his research. TRUE

MM

[NoahFence]

And has been mocked ever since due to the fact that like the typical truther, he has zero clue about any of the topics that could ever be brought up regarding 9/11. TRUE

[AndrewBurley]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

And has been mocked ever since due to the fact that like the typical truther, he has zero clue about any of the topics that could ever be brought up regarding 9/11. TRUE

Can you name something that "9/11: An American Coup" gets wrong?

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by AndrewBurley

Can you name something that "9/11: An American Coup" gets wrong?

How long do you want me to suffer throu....

I mean watch it?

I've never seen it. But after I hit "save" in this post, I'll go to uuutuuube and watch it. GUARANTEE I find at least 3 things wrong in the first 4 minutes.

And....

go

[twinstead]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Okay children.

One last time and I'll leave you to play in your sandbox.

9/11 was a major world interest event. TRUE

Realizing how great was the public interest, Dylan Avery originally did research to make a fictional story based on the events of 9/11. TRUE

While doing his research Dylan discovered so many anomalies that undermined the Official Conspiracy Theory that he no longer believed it to be true. TRUE

At this point, Dylan Avery decided to abandon the fictional work and make a documentary based on the factual material he discovered during his research. TRUE

MM

99.9% of the "anomalies" Dylan discovered are actually not anomalies. TRUE

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by twinstead

99.9% of the "anomalies" Dylan discovered are actually not anomalies. TRUE

99.9% of those anomalies are still cited by truthers as though they're fact. TRUE.

(And yes, if there's any doubt about this, you folks reading this can go through any of the threads over the past several months and compare truther claims to this list: http://emptv.com/research/loose-change. You'll find those claims still being peddled, despite the fact that one of the original authors of those claims has pulled back from them).

[NoahFence]

OK - tons of meaningless fluff to begin with. Maybe I should have started my 4 minute clock when they actually start talking about 9/11.

So far when talking about the Reichtag and Pearl Harbor, this does nothing but prove 9/11 wasn't anything like either of those instances.

[NoahFence]

Is this idiot going to get to a point anytime soon?

[NoahFence]

OK, here's something that they got wrong - after having to fast-forward through a half hour of stupidity that has nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11:

"Many people" have unanswered questions.

In reality, a few - a painfully small number - are idiots who feel the need to question for the sake of questioning, and have zero desire to actually have an answer.


I can't sit through any more. It's the same painfully regurgitated crap that has been proven wrong time and again.

Comparing it to Hitler? Please. Immediately after the Reichtag fire, he took total control and instituted a police state. Didn't happen after 9/11. The President who, according to truthers, was supposed to do the same, left office just like every other president after his term.

Comparing it to Pearl Harbor? Really? I thought conspiritards were under the impression that Pearl Harbor was to get the economic engine of America under a full head of steam. After 9/11 - where's this prosperity? Where's the economic boom? I personally got laid off - DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF 9/11. Me and thousands of others.

So you want to know what they got wrong in that video? I'll ask you - WHAT DID THEY GET RIGHT?

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by AndrewBurley

Can you name something that "9/11: An American Coup" gets wrong?

everything - but if you like moronic claims, LC claptrap is for you, it is dumbed down drivel for those who can't think for themselves. It only takes a grade school education to figure out American Coup is trash.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by AndrewBurley

Can you name something that "9/11: An American Coup" gets wrong?

Okay, how about the title?

Quote:

Politically, a coup d'état is a usually violent political engineering, which affects who rules in the government, without radical changes in the form of the government, the political system. Tactically, a coup d'état involves control, by an active minority of military usurpers, who block the remaining (non-participant) military's possible defence of the attacked government, by either capturing or expelling the politico-military leaders, and seizing physical control of the country's key government offices, communications media, and infrastructure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%..._of_the_phrase



Or perhaps you'd like to list the US political leaders who were captured or expelled following 9/11?

[Sam.I.Am]

George Bush didn't get re-elected seven years later did he? HAH! PROOF!!!

of course he couldn't run in 2008 even if he wanted to and he was re-elected in 2004 but I'm using the truther standards of proof, not actual standards so I'm right and everyone else are sheeples so nanny nanny boo boo to you...

ETA: That was for Horatius.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

Uhh, yeah... he did. Not in those exact words, of course, but that's the meaning of "beyond the scope of the Bush administration".

Do have a different interpretation? Please enlighten us.

I think what Dylan meant was is that the Jews and/or Israel did it

(Refresh my recollection here. Isn't Miragememories the guy who believes that Mossad launched a rocket from the Woolworth building into one of the twin towers on 9/11?)

[Miragememories]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

I think what Dylan meant was is that the Jews and/or Israel did it

(Refresh my recollection here. Isn't Miragememories the guy who believes that Mossad launched a rocket from the Woolworth building into one of the twin towers on 9/11?)

No he isn't. Trying checking before you post.

MM

[Miragememories]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

"Comparing it to Pearl Harbor? Really? I thought conspiritards were under the impression that Pearl Harbor was to get the economic engine of America under a full head of steam. After 9/11 - where's this prosperity? Where's the economic boom? I personally got laid off - DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF 9/11. Me and thousands of others."

Truly pathetic.

I give you a big F for your knowledge of history.

Kudos to whomever decided on the layoff.

MM

[alienentity]

Let's just take what Dylan said literally, no interpretation. He said that ' orchestrating the attacks was beyond the scope of the Bush administration'
OK, now that of course includes both Rummy and Cheney, the two dark lords of the administration.

So that means that Dylan is contradicting every single 9/11 Truther who believes that Cheney ordered a stand down, or had ANY hand in 'orchestrating' the attacks.

Wow, that is a big statement against the majority of truthers. Most truthers hypothesize that explosives were planted in the WTC buildings, apparently by some government agency - they continually point to the CIA and FBI offices in WTC 7 as a motive.

Any such active plotting or orchestration, required by these truther memes, is contradicted by Dylan Avery. The young kid who brought truthers 'Loose Change', and converted many of them to the same memes.

Nice going, Dylan! You just threw them all under a bus, made your money, and walked away. And you wonder why we question the character of the 'leaders' of 9/11 Truth??????

Meanwhile, on Planet Truther, Dr. John Gross is vilified for denying that he's seen reports of 'huge pools of molten steel' at ground zero. He isn't even contradicting and refuting his beliefs like Avery, he's just saying he hasn't seen any evidence. 'I was on the site I was on the steel yards,I don't know that that's so'

That's a cardinal sin for 9/11 Truthers - never oppose the sacred meme of molten steel... 'Thou shalt not commit the blasphemy of denying molten steel, or the truther God will smite you'

My God truthers are idiots.

[Walter Ego]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

I think what Dylan meant was is that the Jews and/or Israel did it.

(Refresh my recollection here. Isn't Miragememories the guy who believes that Mossad launched a rocket from the Woolworth building into one of the twin towers on 9/11?)

Originally Posted by Miragememories

No he isn't. Trying checking before you post.

MM

Well, obviously you're not the Jewish Rocket from the Woolworth building guy because you're not on ignore. Please excuse my error. But, just for the record, do you believe the Jews and/or Israel had anything to do with 9/11?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Triterope

Yes, and let's keep in mind what it is Dylan Avery is making progress towards:

Acknowledging that his entire adult life was a fraud.

You have to admit, Avery is pretty deeply vested in the conspiracy. It made him important, popular, and wealthy at a young age. For him to admit it's all wrong is to destroy the only thing he ever built in life, to turn his back on his friends (who are by all accounts still true believers in the conspiracy), and to undermine his dream project.

That's gotta be tough. Read any "former truther" threads here, like this one, and you can get a sense of how tough it is for people to admit they were wrong. And that's just for a rank-and-file Truther, not someone whose every good thing in life was based on it.

Loose Change is to 9-11 what Milli Vanilli was to pop music. Each was a fatally flawed production whose popularity got out of control. When the fraud was inevitably exposed, its creators couldn't get any legitimate work. After a couple attempts to set things right that nobody cared about (Rob & Fab, the various LC special editions), each silently dropped out of sight... except when they're dragged out for some mocking retrospective interview.

And that's got to be a special slice of hell. To be asked for your side of the story, when the world long ago made up its mind that you're wrong. After that Slate interview, I bet he went home and drank heavily. You would too. Think of your stupidest moment, and imagine you had to be interviewed by Slate about it every five years, with the resulting material finding its way into Google. "Hey, aren't you that guy?" "Yeah, I'm that guy." And some people can't deal with that. Like Rob Pilatus, who self-destructed after Milli Vanilli was exposed.

Yes, Dylan Avery said some of the most horrific things ever recorded about 9-11, perpetrated its most dishonest claims, and profited greatly from it all. But unlike the others in his crew, or any other major leaders of the Truth movement, he's showing signs of contrition, or at least re-evaluation of it all. So, as Kevin_Lowe said, let's encourage his progress.

I'm just sorry he wasn't in one of the planes and got to see it with his own eyes.

[Oz1976]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Truly pathetic.

I give you a big F for your knowledge of history.

Kudos to whomever decided on the layoff.

MM

This coming from someone who still can't comprehend the complete differences in the quotes in of their forum signature. YOUR version of history ISNT history, it's REVISIONIST history, which is why the majority of us are still here on this forum, so YOUR ilk has a counterpoint.

Take a hard look at the two quotes in your signature...a REAL HARD LOOK...and try to come to the realization of how utterly wrong you are...can you admit when you're wrong? I doubt it.

[Edx]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Why the constant request for speculation?

He never said it was "beyond the abilities of an organization that was at the head of the most powerful nation on the planet".

He said exactly that, just not in those exact words.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Oz1976

This coming from someone who still can't comprehend the complete differences in the quotes in of their forum signature. YOUR version of history ISNT history, it's REVISIONIST history, which is why the majority of us are still here on this forum, so YOUR ilk has a counterpoint.

Take a hard look at the two quotes in your signature...a REAL HARD LOOK...and try to come to the realization of how utterly wrong you are...can you admit when you're wrong? I doubt it.

Here's some interesting prognosticating from MM from July 2007. Now, honestly, isn't this only more marginally insane that the Jews firing rockets from the Woolworth building?

Quote:

I can't guess when, but sometime before the next presidential elections I expect a second 9/11 type incident.

Unfortunately, to be effective, the ante would have to be raised. The goal will be to empower the current regime with extraordinary powers. The only way Congress will concede to such a thing is if an incident of extreme magnitude takes place and the threat of further such incidents remains in the offing. As part of the granted powers, the presidential elections of 2008 would likely be canceled as an emergency measure.

I don't think toppling the Sears Tower will do the trick.

A nuclear event is the most likely scenario that would carry sufficient persuasive weight with the American public and Congress.

Should this occur, members of the 9/11 Truth Movement can only expect to survive if they move underground and it's doubtful that they would ever again be a serious force to be reckoned it, given the expectation of a declaration of martial law throughout the U.S.

The fact is, if 9/11 was an inside job, the perpetrators have committed themselves too far to let it all fail, unless they believe the next government will be somehow compelled to continue policies that the current one initiated (Iraq, Homeland security measures etc.).

It's quite possible that 9/11 Stage 2 is already in place and timed to be initiated if and when it's absolutely deemed necessary. The reason we haven't seen it so far is because it will be so horrific that they don't really want to "push the button" unless they feel it's absolutely necessary to maintain their initial goals.

I know looking at these words, it all seems so outlandish, like some cheap thriller vacation reading, but when you think back to 9/11 and events like WTC 7, if you really believe it was an inside job, after deliberately killing 3,000+ innocent people, how likely is it that those responsible would chicken out now?

MM

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...howtopic=12488

[CompusMentus]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

How's the foot taste MM???

Sour grapes?



Compus

[Orphia Nay]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Okay children.

One last time and I'll leave you to play in your sandbox.

9/11 was a major world interest event. TRUE

Realizing how great was the public interest, Dylan Avery originally did research to make a fictional story based on the events of 9/11. TRUE

While doing his research Dylan discovered so many anomalies that undermined the Official Conspiracy Theory that he no longer believed it to be true. TRUE

At this point, Dylan Avery decided to abandon the fictional work and make a documentary based on the factual material he discovered during his research. TRUE

MM

Dylan Avery now thinks orchestrating the attacks was beyond the scope of the Bush administration. TRUE.

[CompusMentus]

Avery has now fully recanted on key aspects of his lie-riddled much revised "documentaries". TRUE

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Miragememories

Truly pathetic.

I give you a big F for your knowledge of history.

Kudos to whomever decided on the layoff.

MM

OK Kiddo. If I'm wrong on the conspiritard version of Pearl Harbor, educate me. If not to get the economic engine running, what then is the stupid reason?

(Quick! Google something!)



PS - I notice you didn't respond to the Hitler comparison that I shot down. I suppose if it were '06 and Bush was still in office, you'd say "Yea, but you wait- it'll happen!)

[Undesired Walrus]

http://www.slate.com/id/2302834/

Quote:

What does Avery think of 9/11 conspiracy theories now? He thinks that while orchestrating the attacks was beyond the scope of the Bush administration, there was "considerable foreknowledge" within the government so that it should have been able to prevent them. Why it did not is his new focus. "Where I am now is, I've whittled it down to a very basic statement that I think a lot of people can agree on: There was a cover-up of some kind," Avery says. "The only question is what they were covering up, how far [up] it goes, how deep it runs, and how many asses would be on the line if the truth actually came out."

He says he still "support[s] the movement," but he also acknowledges getting "sucked in" deeper than he should have been, into a "hardcore mentality that it was almost too easy to get into back then, because the war had just started and everybody was just so pissed off."

[bill smith]

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

http://www.slate.com/id/2302834/

Thank you Dylan Avery for waking up large sections of America and the World to the clear and present danger of rogue government. Your job is done and others will carry your work forward to it's conclusion.

[Oystein]

UW, merge with http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=218526 ?

[Triterope]

Originally Posted by bill smith

Dylan Avery, your job is done and others will carry your work forward to it's conclusion.

That already happened.

[Dog Town]

Pay no attention to MM. He just can't accept his leader leaving him. Which is funny considering Do Over hasn't posted in years at LC forum. Last I checked over there MM is one of the few left. Hoping his master will return! Sad really.

[twinstead]

Originally Posted by bill smith

Thank you Dylan Avery for waking up large sections of America and the World to the clear and present danger of rogue government. Your job is done and others will carry your work forward to it's conclusion.

LOL A poignant farewell to the Great Leader. Don't fear, Dear Great Leader; your cult will live on...