Mormons on my Way Home

Bill Thompson · 8th September 2011, 11:00 PM

I had a good nap on the bus ride after work and woke refreshed when I stepped off the bus.

I was most of the way home when two young men in authentic attire turned the corner on their way towards me. I told myself that I was not going to start any discussion, maybe say hello. But when they noticed I was open to seeing them and perhaps engaging in some dialog they started right into me like two door-to-door salesmen.

I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique. It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before. Their expressions changed a little. This was not part of their play book. I felt like I might be making an impact so I pressed on. "Suppose Mormonism was not real. Suppose the Book of Mormon was exactly what some people say it is. How would that look any different than how it is today?"

They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?"

The two young men seemed to have very different personalities. One was tall and thin and seemed more boyish than the other one who was shorter and built like a tank with a short military style haircut. The shorter one had brown piercing eyes that never wavered during our conversation. The taller, more innocent looking of the two said, "well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie."

Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake"

She short marine-looking one said, "Well, there are mistakes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon corrects them."

I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word."

(By the way, a Methodist minister friend of mine once told me that Smith read the Bible from behind a curtain when this part of the Book of Mormon was being transcribed)

If I had more time I would have also explained how silly it is for Nephi to say, "you know I kind of like the book of Isaiah and so I am going to write it down here now" instead of just refer to it and (once again) if the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't Smith have copied the bible just as filler?

I went on to another subject for them to think about since I did not have enough time. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't someone who understood literature more than anyone else have said it was a fake if he read it? Mark Twain did just that"

Here is something I came up with myself "If the book of Mormon was fake, would it have an English style of the King James Version of the Bible? King James wrote the bible the way he did because he was in competition to do so to win favor among other translations of the bible coming into England. People wanted to do what Martin Luther had done in Germany and have a version of the Bible written in their native tongue. So King James intentionally used a style of English that was not written or spoken at that time to give his version a sense of authenticity and age. But the Book of Mormon had no competition. There was no other book of Mormon. If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't smith have resorted to making it sound biblical as a ruse or trick? If the Book of Mormon was real, there would be no reason to not use modern English."

I had so much to say and I was running out of time. I was late for dinner as it was and I wanted to get some more work done tonight. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't one mostly see young men born and raised in the Mormon Church being sent out as Missionaries?"

I decide to get into the DNA argument. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't a Mormon at BYU find out that the DNA of the Native Americans would not match the DNA of the people from the Mid-East. And if the Book of Mormon was fake wouldn't the LDS church try to find all sorts of terrible ways of discounting or discrediting the Mormon who found this out? I have had online debates about this. First the Mormon will say that the fact that the Native Americans were from the Mid-East is not directly in the Book of Mormon. Then I will say that it is in the introduction of the Book of Mormon, written by Smith as what the Book of Mormon is all about. And so if it is not true, it makes Smith a false prophet. Then they will say that maybe the people in the Book of Mormon were only a small area in the New World which does not exist anymore. Then I will tell them that this is not what the Book of Mormon says and that it says that the land was unoccupied and the people from Israel populated all of the Americas. Then to go to the idea that some DNA from the Mid-East is actually in the Native Americans. Then I tell them that that does not make any difference because of human migration patterns, everyone in Europe and Asia have DNA from the Mid-East. The fact still remains that the Native Americans are more closely related to the Mongolians than the Hebrews. Then the person I am debating will go back to repeating that the book of Mormon does not specify exactly where the people came from.

I went on, "It is as if the person I am talking to has blinders on and they can only see the little piece of the discussion we are having at that one moment and they forget about the ground we already covered."

The shorter of the Mormons had a response. "Well, you know, the Spanish mixed with the Native Americans"

I said, "They did. But not in North America and Not in Brazil".

The taller of the two was about to say something but I turned to talk to him pretending that I did not notice he was about to say something and I said, "What about the golden plates? If the Book of Mormon was not real, Smith would have used a trick to make the Golden Plates seem real. He would have said something like, 'you cannot see them’ and 'I have them but you are not yet worthy to view them. You have to pray and accept this religion as being real and then they will be shown to you'. I mean, Smith could have said anything. He could have said...."

I wanted to say, "If you pray hard enough you will see monkeys fly out of my arse hole." But i didn't. I knew that would cause the discussion to end prematurely. So instead I said, "Smith could have said, if you pray hard enough, accept this religion as being real, you will see monkeys falling from the sky."

We talked a little about the Kinderhook plates and that if Smith was the real deal he would have been able to tell they were fakes.

We talked about the fact Smith should have just handed the book over to scientists or others. They said that story about a small piece had been handed to an official once. I knew that story and I could have kept on discussing this with them. But it was getting too late and dinner was prepared for me and I wanted to see my kid.

They parted with "you asked, 'what if it is fake' so I ask you what if it is real".

I could not let that go. "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake."

And I parted with a comment that God would not play such a trick on people.

Somewhere during the conversation I told them that I knew I was not going to make any impact on them but maybe, ten years from now, they might remember me.

I wish I could spend hours talking to them. I wonder how long it would take to convince them that they are wasting their short lives on Earth supporting a cult and a lie. I wonder if that is even possible. It is probably not possible. I remember hearing about support groups in Utah for exMormons that would receive lost souls who would say that they could not leave the LDS Church because it would mean that they would loose their families.

I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.

fishbob · 8th September 2011, 11:05 PM

I recommend taking a different route home.

Bill Thompson · 8th September 2011, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by fishbob

I recommend taking a different route home.

They are everywhere. Like extras in a zombie movie with starched white cotton dress shirts.

Bill Thompson · 9th September 2011, 12:54 AM

That is the trick, by the way, ask them "what would it be like if your religion was fake and your holy book was made up". It stops Mormons. It also stops Muslims.

Bill Thompson · 9th September 2011, 01:13 AM

Is it illegal to video record people and put it on youtube? I could have these lads over for lunch, I figure and debate them. What if I told them on the front end? What if I wore a video camera. Hey, that sounds doable.

Professor Yaffle · 9th September 2011, 01:57 AM

They were only going to ask you the time...

Craig B · 9th September 2011, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

They [Mormons] are everywhere. Like extras in a zombie movie with starched white cotton dress shirts.

Sometimes I worry about you, Bill. Again, I recommend camomile tea and a quiet rest.

A person I once knew reported to one of my friends and me that he was being continually followed by Jews carrying walkie-talkies. This was before the advent of mobile phones. It was hard, but we succeeded in convincing him of the implausibility of this notion through a series of long friendly chats.

After that he became a born again Evangelical Christian, and told us that evolution was a ploy of Satan, and we were all going to Hell. But the walkie-talkie Jews finally disappeared, and at least he never became a Mormon, so we can be thankful for that. Anyway I can't imagine him in a starched white cotton dress shirt.

Bill Thompson · 9th September 2011, 02:07 AM

lol

That is funny.

What geography are you talking about? I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. Can't these countries find their own magical books of gold?

Penn and Teller and John Edward can tell you how do do the lost craft of "gold digging"

bluesjnr · 9th September 2011, 02:59 AM

Bluesjnr never engages people who talk about themselves in the third party.

Craig B · 9th September 2011, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

lol

That is funny. What geography are you talking about? I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. Can't these countries find their own magical books of gold?

Glasgow, Scotland. We don't need to wait for Americans to teach us in the West of Scotland, or our close relations in the North of Ireland, about religious insanity. We've got plenty of it already. Thankfully it is declining in political influence.

We had a serious jihadist terrorist car bomb attempt on the airport in Glasgow back in 2007. It was dealt with by the nearest passer by punching the would be bombers on the nose, after which one died of self-inflicted wounds, and the other was taken into custody. There was no hysteria in the city, and activity in the airport has been more or less undisturbed apart from a few new security precautions involving control of vehicles. Relations between Muslim and other residents of Glasgow were not visibly affected.

And during the Troubles in Ireland both Catholic and Protestant extremists had the good sense not to extend the war into Glasgow, where there are plenty of both.

These things give me hope.

But we are indeed visited by Mormons, and they do wear white cotton dress shirts.

Multivac · 9th September 2011, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada.

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

Professor Yaffle · 9th September 2011, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Multivac

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

About 200,000 in a population of over 60 million is hardly a huge following... For comparison - there are 1.5 million muslims in the UK.

FireGarden · 9th September 2011, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique.

I find that surprising due to the whole "Could you have written the Book of Mormon?" angle. I learnt about it in 2005:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37090

Quote:

It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before.

While not forgetting or meaning to diminish the surprise which I noted above... I will agree that there was something in what you wrote which is like a signature of Bill Thompson.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

That is the trick, by the way, ask them "what would it be like if your religion was fake and your holy book was made up". It stops Mormons. It also stops Muslims.

Agreed. I've done the same with the Christianity and the Bible. Usually listing the silliness helps. Talking snakes and donkeys, water into wine, sorcery giants, unicorns, walking on water, etc. Also the brutality, genocide torture and killing of children and the lack of historical evidence goes a long way to stop them.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Multivac

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones.

As for the rest, I can often spot Mormons but I was raised one and know the subtle cues.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?"

Another great one with theists in general. Most can't imagine a reality without god yet we atheists do it all the time. No big deal.

Quote:

"well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie."

I remember when I realized Mormonism and religion in general was a lie. That's the first thing you've got to get through to believers, some person made up a silly story about a burning bush or a guy being swallowed by a whale or a man who actually was going to murder his son for god, those stories still blow me away. For the life of me, how is it that humans buy into such BS? It's kinda sad really. I guess people accept uncritically and without skepticism their own cherished mythology. It doesn't matter how plastic and obviously fake Joseph smith or Abraham is, that's your life. Your reason for being.

Quote:

Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake"

Like the Bible. It's mythology.

Quote:

I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word."

You can do the very same with the Bible. much of it is plagerized from other books of the Bible and mistakes are carried over. See Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.

Quote:

I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.

I know exactly what you mean. All that time wasted on made up stories of pregnant virgins and walking dead people. The manipulation and unelected power of Christian leaders. It's sad really.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Is it illegal to video record people and put it on youtube? I could have these lads over for lunch, I figure and debate them. What if I told them on the front end? What if I wore a video camera. Hey, that sounds doable.

Absolutely, hey, they exist now. JW's Catholics, protestants, Mormons. All the nutty apologetics, defending genocide, infanticide, magic, Elisha and the bears who kill the children, Lot offering his daughters to be raped, Abraham's willingness to kill his son, god ordering the slaughter of the Moabites, Amalekites, etc. tons of these debates are on youtube right now.

People ask me all the time how Mormons can believe such nonsense, this is where I have to credit James Randi. Randi tells us that it's easiest to fool ourselves. Once we latch onto a cherished belief like Scientology or Mormonism or Christianity, it really doesn't matter just how wacky the stories are. To Hindus Christianity is a bizarre joke. They are not invested in it. Mormons have an investment. Family, friends, a lifetime of study and dedication. Not to mention expectations of salvation. Plus, it's the greatest ego stroke. God the biggest, baddest, meanest mo fo in the universe is on your side.

Me, I'll take reality over holy ghost stories.

Mister Agenda · 9th September 2011, 09:26 AM

You have a gift for storytelling, Bill, and also seem to be a decent raconteur.

If you video record future conversations with Mormons, record them saying they agree to be recorded and you should be fine.

Since I have the impression you know more Muslims than Mormons, maybe you could arrange a similar conversation with one or two of your Muslim friends and post a link to it.

Speaking of Muslims, I was a bit confused where you responded: "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." It sounds like you're trying to say that if Mormonism were real, you would still be able to prove it was fake using the same methods used prove Islam was fake. Is that a fair paraphrase of your intended meaning?

Spindrift · 9th September 2011, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones.

As for the rest, I can often spot Mormons but I was raised one and know the subtle cues.

The underwear right?

Madalch · 9th September 2011, 11:19 AM

For some reason, I now have John Denver stuck in my head.

"Mormons, on my way home, are annoying....
Mormons, at my door, can make me mad.....
Mormons, underwater, sound more peaceful.....
Mormons, almost always, make me sad....."

I Ratant · 9th September 2011, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Multivac

I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons.

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

.
Earnest pairs if young men, wearing white shirts, pants, ties, on bicycles, careening around the area.

I Ratant · 9th September 2011, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

The underwear right?

.
The visits never get that intimate.

Craig B · 9th September 2011, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
The visits never get that intimate.

Say you so? Read the Joyce McKinney case 1978, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_sex_in_chains_case. Joyce came to England in pursuit of a Mormon missionary she fancied, chained him up and had all manner of bondage and oral sex sessions. Gave the expression "missionary position" a whole new meaning. The tabloids loved it!

The missionary suffered no permanent ill effects and is now a real estate agent in the USA. Rape of a man by a woman was in 1978 a crime unknown to English Law, so Ms McKinney went unpunished.

Sword_Of_Truth · 9th September 2011, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Earnest pairs if young men, wearing white shirts, pants, ties, on bicycles, careening around the area.

That's only our larval form. Adult mormons are indistinguishable from adult homo sapiens.

I Ratant · 9th September 2011, 12:24 PM

I've seen earnest older men, white shirts, ties, and slacks in pairs at the Mall.
No contact with me, though.
There were a few at Lockheed I worked with.
Religion never came up.

Bill Thompson · 9th September 2011, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Mister Agenda

You have a gift for storytelling, Bill, and also seem to be a decent raconteur.

If you video record future conversations with Mormons, record them saying they agree to be recorded and you should be fine.

Since I have the impression you know more Muslims than Mormons, maybe you could arrange a similar conversation with one or two of your Muslim friends and post a link to it.

Speaking of Muslims, I was a bit confused where you responded: "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." It sounds like you're trying to say that if Mormonism were real, you would still be able to prove it was fake using the same methods used prove Islam was fake. Is that a fair paraphrase of your intended meaning?

I might have left too much out of the transcript of the conversation. The idea is basically this. The two religions contradict each other and so that cannot both be real. If Islam is real, then there is one universal God and he created the universe and all human life for the purpose of praising Him and you have to do these rituals described in Islam to make Him happy. Also, according to Islam, Jesus was not the son of God but a prophet and (get this) Jesus tricked the Romans into killing Judas instead. Mohammed made up that bit in order to remove the idea that Jesus sacrificed himeslf for people. Now, Mormonism has a whole different narrative on Jesus Christ and the Universe. Joesph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon at a time when people had a different understanding of the cosmos. People in the old West of the USA knew by that time that the heavens were vast and distant and not a dome of spheres traveling around a earthcentric universe like during Mohammed's time. But this does not mean the Mormon view of the universe is correct. Back then, they had no concept of the Big Bang. It was thought that the universe was constant and the stars were suns that had may or may not have a life span. But the universe, as thought during Smith's time, was never really created. Ah, but the Earth, itself was created. So, according to Smith, God was just the creator of the Earth. Other planets, according to Mormonism, had other Gods and there is this whole bit about we are all God's children and if we are all good Mormons, we can grow up to be Gods, have our own planet, or own goddess wives, and have endless sex to make endless sprit babies to be put to the test on a planet.

Mormons and Muslims have radically different views of the univese and the meannig of life. They both cannot be corrrect.

A Mormon can look at Islam and say, "look, Islam is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Mohammed was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the Quran."

A Muslim can look at Mormonism and say "look, Mormonism is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Josesph Smith was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the The Book of Mormon."

Both are valid, equal and rational assessments of each other. Both are valuations that neigher would be willing to make about themselves because each side is blind to their own faults.

Then cancel each other out.

In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.

FireGarden · 9th September 2011, 01:54 PM

Or perhaps:
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." - Mark Twain

I Ratant · 9th September 2011, 03:00 PM

Comparing LDS to Islam is useful as both have ah verifiable historical.. if I may.. Genesis....

Then one can extrapolate the human sources of each back to the murky past, and winkle out the stuff that is all too human, and separate it from the supernatural crap added as filler.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th September 2011, 03:03 PM

Two young Mormon men came to my door just last week. They offered to do chores and of course wanted to tell me about God. I didn't have the heart to take advantage of them so I turned down the chores offer. But I did preach back a bit before they left.

I told them the god they worshiped was an atrocious baby killer and they should reread (because they claimed to have read the whole Bible) the story of the Amalekites.

Quote:

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

The underwear right?

Yes but I can't always tell if they have a coat or sweater on. It's the mannerisms, colloquialisms, style of dress and hair.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Then cancel each other out.

In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.

Mormons can do the same with Christianity and Islam. They clear each other off the table. But that's not a very good argument.

It's better to point out how belief systems are irrational. Take Christianity. It claims that it's roots are Judaism and it claims that the god of the OT is the same god of the NT. The same yesterday, today and forever. Yet the god of the OT had a lot of deplorable traits. Jealousy, duplicity, murderous, tortured and killed children, demanded his followers to commit genocide, he even ordered the slaughter of entire groups of people.

Deuteronomy 20:17: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Very different from Jesus and the god of the NT. Sure doesn't seem the same.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Two young Mormon men came to my door just last week. They offered to do chores and of course wanted to tell me about God. I didn't have the heart to take advantage of them so I turned down the chores offer. But I did preach back a bit before they left.

Quote:

15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

I told them the god they worshiped was an atrocious baby killer and they should reread (because they claimed to have read the whole Bible) the story of the Amalekites.

Exactly, anyone who believes in the god of the Bible worships a blood thirsty tyrant who not only kills children but tortures them. Imagine what it must have been like for the mothers and siblings who didn't die first watch as loved ones were destroyed.

I couldn't bear it. I would hide my eyes. God? Could he hide his eyes? How did he feel? Did he rejoice? Was he indifferent to the suffering? What?

joobie · 9th September 2011, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones.

the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag.

carlitos · 9th September 2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

"If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?"

They were stunned and silent.

I have to admit that I wouldn't have a quick response to such an incoherent question either.

Anyway, cool story, bro.

Skeptic Ginger · 9th September 2011, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by joobie

the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag.

Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?

Skeptic Ginger · 9th September 2011, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by RandFan

Mormons can do the same with Christianity and Islam. They clear each other off the table. But that's not a very good argument.

It's better to point out how belief systems are irrational. Take Christianity. It claims that it's roots are Judaism and it claims that the god of the OT is the same god of the NT. The same yesterday, today and forever. Yet the god of the OT had a lot of deplorable traits. Jealousy, duplicity, murderous, tortured and killed children, demanded his followers to commit genocide, he even ordered the slaughter of entire groups of people.

Deuteronomy 20:17: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Very different from [the imagined] Jesus and the god of the NT. Sure doesn't seem the same.

FTFY.

Cruelty in the NT

Minarvia · 9th September 2011, 06:01 PM

Wow, all I can say is that I could never think so fast and well on my feet like that, Bill Thompson!

We have some Mormons where I live, but they never go door to door or approach people; or at least not that I know of. They drop off pamphlets now and again, but never knock on doors or even approach people in stores or the parks.

I'd likely not be able to keep a straight face with any Mormon because I always think of the "South Park" episode about Mormons.

I Ratant · 9th September 2011, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?

.
I pointed out to a couple these guys they had to go past the "No Peddlers" sign at the entrance to the community to get to my house.
"We're not peddlers!"
"Yes you are, you're peddling ********."
They haven't been back.

jiggeryqua · 9th September 2011, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Multivac

Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?

I've got a knack for it - two men wearing conventional haircuts and white shirts, suit trousers and ties might be a couple of insurance salesmen or bank clerks or whatnot, but the mormons still manage to look like mormons somehow. Yes, the name badges can be a giveaway, but I've spotted them from behind on a number of occasions. I've never quite put my finger on the identifying characteristic/s, they just look...mormony.

Hmm...maybe there's a Challenge application in this, if enough mormons can be persuaded to co-operate.

RandFan · 9th September 2011, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

FTFY.

Cruelty in the NT

You've been doing that a lot lately.

8th September 2011, 11:00 PM	#1
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	Mormons on my Way Home I had a good nap on the bus ride after work and woke refreshed when I stepped off the bus. I was most of the way home when two young men in authentic attire turned the corner on their way towards me. I told myself that I was not going to start any discussion, maybe say hello. But when they noticed I was open to seeing them and perhaps engaging in some dialog they started right into me like two door-to-door salesmen. I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?" They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique. It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before. Their expressions changed a little. This was not part of their play book. I felt like I might be making an impact so I pressed on. "Suppose Mormonism was not real. Suppose the Book of Mormon was exactly what some people say it is. How would that look any different than how it is today?" They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?" The two young men seemed to have very different personalities. One was tall and thin and seemed more boyish than the other one who was shorter and built like a tank with a short military style haircut. The shorter one had brown piercing eyes that never wavered during our conversation. The taller, more innocent looking of the two said, "well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie." Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake" She short marine-looking one said, "Well, there are mistakes in the Bible and the Book of Mormon corrects them." I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word." (By the way, a Methodist minister friend of mine once told me that Smith read the Bible from behind a curtain when this part of the Book of Mormon was being transcribed) If I had more time I would have also explained how silly it is for Nephi to say, "you know I kind of like the book of Isaiah and so I am going to write it down here now" instead of just refer to it and (once again) if the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't Smith have copied the bible just as filler? I went on to another subject for them to think about since I did not have enough time. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't someone who understood literature more than anyone else have said it was a fake if he read it? Mark Twain did just that" Here is something I came up with myself "If the book of Mormon was fake, would it have an English style of the King James Version of the Bible? King James wrote the bible the way he did because he was in competition to do so to win favor among other translations of the bible coming into England. People wanted to do what Martin Luther had done in Germany and have a version of the Bible written in their native tongue. So King James intentionally used a style of English that was not written or spoken at that time to give his version a sense of authenticity and age. But the Book of Mormon had no competition. There was no other book of Mormon. If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't smith have resorted to making it sound biblical as a ruse or trick? If the Book of Mormon was real, there would be no reason to not use modern English." I had so much to say and I was running out of time. I was late for dinner as it was and I wanted to get some more work done tonight. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't one mostly see young men born and raised in the Mormon Church being sent out as Missionaries?" I decide to get into the DNA argument. "If the book of Mormon was fake, wouldn't a Mormon at BYU find out that the DNA of the Native Americans would not match the DNA of the people from the Mid-East. And if the Book of Mormon was fake wouldn't the LDS church try to find all sorts of terrible ways of discounting or discrediting the Mormon who found this out? I have had online debates about this. First the Mormon will say that the fact that the Native Americans were from the Mid-East is not directly in the Book of Mormon. Then I will say that it is in the introduction of the Book of Mormon, written by Smith as what the Book of Mormon is all about. And so if it is not true, it makes Smith a false prophet. Then they will say that maybe the people in the Book of Mormon were only a small area in the New World which does not exist anymore. Then I will tell them that this is not what the Book of Mormon says and that it says that the land was unoccupied and the people from Israel populated all of the Americas. Then to go to the idea that some DNA from the Mid-East is actually in the Native Americans. Then I tell them that that does not make any difference because of human migration patterns, everyone in Europe and Asia have DNA from the Mid-East. The fact still remains that the Native Americans are more closely related to the Mongolians than the Hebrews. Then the person I am debating will go back to repeating that the book of Mormon does not specify exactly where the people came from. I went on, "It is as if the person I am talking to has blinders on and they can only see the little piece of the discussion we are having at that one moment and they forget about the ground we already covered." The shorter of the Mormons had a response. "Well, you know, the Spanish mixed with the Native Americans" I said, "They did. But not in North America and Not in Brazil". The taller of the two was about to say something but I turned to talk to him pretending that I did not notice he was about to say something and I said, "What about the golden plates? If the Book of Mormon was not real, Smith would have used a trick to make the Golden Plates seem real. He would have said something like, 'you cannot see them’ and 'I have them but you are not yet worthy to view them. You have to pray and accept this religion as being real and then they will be shown to you'. I mean, Smith could have said anything. He could have said...." I wanted to say, "If you pray hard enough you will see monkeys fly out of my arse hole." But i didn't. I knew that would cause the discussion to end prematurely. So instead I said, "Smith could have said, if you pray hard enough, accept this religion as being real, you will see monkeys falling from the sky." We talked a little about the Kinderhook plates and that if Smith was the real deal he would have been able to tell they were fakes. We talked about the fact Smith should have just handed the book over to scientists or others. They said that story about a small piece had been handed to an official once. I knew that story and I could have kept on discussing this with them. But it was getting too late and dinner was prepared for me and I wanted to see my kid. They parted with "you asked, 'what if it is fake' so I ask you what if it is real". I could not let that go. "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." And I parted with a comment that God would not play such a trick on people. Somewhere during the conversation I told them that I knew I was not going to make any impact on them but maybe, ten years from now, they might remember me. I wish I could spend hours talking to them. I wonder how long it would take to convince them that they are wasting their short lives on Earth supporting a cult and a lie. I wonder if that is even possible. It is probably not possible. I remember hearing about support groups in Utah for exMormons that would receive lost souls who would say that they could not leave the LDS Church because it would mean that they would loose their families. I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding.
	Last edited by Bill Thompson; 8th September 2011 at 11:50 PM.

8th September 2011, 11:05 PM	#2
fishbob Seasonally Disaffected Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chilly Undieville Posts: 5,670	I recommend taking a different route home.
	__________________ When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder "Stupidity - a callow indifference to facts or data" - Stuart Firestein -neuroscientist. I hate bigots.

9th September 2011, 01:57 AM	#6
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,445	They were only going to ask you the time...
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat

9th September 2011, 02:04 AM	#7
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,317	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson They [Mormons] are everywhere. Like extras in a zombie movie with starched white cotton dress shirts. Sometimes I worry about you, Bill. Again, I recommend camomile tea and a quiet rest. A person I once knew reported to one of my friends and me that he was being continually followed by Jews carrying walkie-talkies. This was before the advent of mobile phones. It was hard, but we succeeded in convincing him of the implausibility of this notion through a series of long friendly chats. After that he became a born again Evangelical Christian, and told us that evolution was a ploy of Satan, and we were all going to Hell. But the walkie-talkie Jews finally disappeared, and at least he never became a Mormon, so we can be thankful for that. Anyway I can't imagine him in a starched white cotton dress shirt.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,317

9th September 2011, 02:07 AM	#8
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	lol That is funny. What geography are you talking about? I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. Can't these countries find their own magical books of gold? Penn and Teller and John Edward can tell you how do do the lost craft of "gold digging"
	Last edited by Bill Thompson; 9th September 2011 at 02:46 AM.

8th September 2011, 11:08 PM	#3
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	Originally Posted by fishbob I recommend taking a different route home. They are everywhere. Like extras in a zombie movie with starched white cotton dress shirts.

9th September 2011, 12:54 AM	#4
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	That is the trick, by the way, ask them "what would it be like if your religion was fake and your holy book was made up". It stops Mormons. It also stops Muslims.

9th September 2011, 01:13 AM	#5
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	Is it illegal to video record people and put it on youtube? I could have these lads over for lunch, I figure and debate them. What if I told them on the front end? What if I wore a video camera. Hey, that sounds doable.

9th September 2011, 02:59 AM	#9
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Not where I should be. Posts: 2,200	Bluesjnr never engages people who talk about themselves in the third party.
	__________________ A baby smoking? That's child abuse - UncaYimmy Your avatar really cracked me up the first hundred or so times I saw it...Now, it gets on my nerves.. - Skeptical Greg

9th September 2011, 03:17 AM	#10
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,317	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson lol That is funny. What geography are you talking about? I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. Can't these countries find their own magical books of gold? Glasgow, Scotland. We don't need to wait for Americans to teach us in the West of Scotland, or our close relations in the North of Ireland, about religious insanity. We've got plenty of it already. Thankfully it is declining in political influence. We had a serious jihadist terrorist car bomb attempt on the airport in Glasgow back in 2007. It was dealt with by the nearest passer by punching the would be bombers on the nose, after which one died of self-inflicted wounds, and the other was taken into custody. There was no hysteria in the city, and activity in the airport has been more or less undisturbed apart from a few new security precautions involving control of vehicles. Relations between Muslim and other residents of Glasgow were not visibly affected. And during the Troubles in Ireland both Catholic and Protestant extremists had the good sense not to extend the war into Glasgow, where there are plenty of both. These things give me hope. But we are indeed visited by Mormons, and they do wear white cotton dress shirts.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,317

9th September 2011, 03:19 AM	#11
Multivac Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,001	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson I was shocked to learn that there was a huge Mormon following the UK and Canada. I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons. Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress?
Multivac Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 2,001

9th September 2011, 03:22 AM	#12
Professor Yaffle Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Emily's shop Posts: 15,445	Originally Posted by Multivac I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons. Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress? About 200,000 in a population of over 60 million is hardly a huge following... For comparison - there are 1.5 million muslims in the UK.
	__________________ I think you'll find it's a little bit more complicated than that. My blog "Well I think I've made it abundantly clear in this thread I have no idea what I'm talking about..." - truethat Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 9th September 2011 at 03:25 AM.

9th September 2011, 03:39 AM	#13
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson I immediately took charge of the conversation, "let me ask you something." That stopped them dead in their tracks and they looked at me as if they were prepared for anything I would ask. "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?" They were stunned and silent. No one had ever taken that angle with them before. It is something unique. I find that surprising due to the whole "Could you have written the Book of Mormon?" angle. I learnt about it in 2005: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=37090 Quote: It is something that could only come from Bill Thompson and they had never had spoken to Bill Thompson before. While not forgetting or meaning to diminish the surprise which I noted above... I will agree that there was something in what you wrote which is like a signature of Bill Thompson.
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

9th September 2011, 04:41 AM	#14
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson That is the trick, by the way, ask them "what would it be like if your religion was fake and your holy book was made up". It stops Mormons. It also stops Muslims. Agreed. I've done the same with the Christianity and the Bible. Usually listing the silliness helps. Talking snakes and donkeys, water into wine, sorcery giants, unicorns, walking on water, etc. Also the brutality, genocide torture and killing of children and the lack of historical evidence goes a long way to stop them.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

9th September 2011, 04:44 AM	#15
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Multivac I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons. Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress? Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones. As for the rest, I can often spot Mormons but I was raised one and know the subtle cues.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

9th September 2011, 04:55 AM	#16
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson They seemed to be unable to grasp this concept. So I went on. "Imagine, a different reality, if you will, where the Book of Mormon is not real and Mormonism is not real, what would that reality be like and how would it be different than the reality we have today?" Another great one with theists in general. Most can't imagine a reality without god yet we atheists do it all the time. No big deal. Quote: "well, then everything we do and everything we are all about is a lie." I remember when I realized Mormonism and religion in general was a lie. That's the first thing you've got to get through to believers, some person made up a silly story about a burning bush or a guy being swallowed by a whale or a man who actually was going to murder his son for god, those stories still blow me away. For the life of me, how is it that humans buy into such BS? It's kinda sad really. I guess people accept uncritically and without skepticism their own cherished mythology. It doesn't matter how plastic and obviously fake Joseph smith or Abraham is, that's your life. Your reason for being. Quote: Then I started to unload like a bottle under pressure with its cork popped. I spoke as fast as I could because I knew I had little time and I needed to get as much in as I could within the small amount of time I had. I started with something obvious and simple. "If Smith had just copied Isaiah 2 from the bible when he wrote 2 Nephi, rather than it coming directly from God, there would be some minor mistakes and flaws, don't you think, I mean, if the Book of Mormon was fake" Like the Bible. It's mythology. Quote: I said, "but that is not so. If you look at the Isaiah 2 and 2 Nephi 12 side by side you can see a passage from the Bible that makes sense but Smith misread it into something that does not make any sense at all when you change one word." You can do the very same with the Bible. much of it is plagerized from other books of the Bible and mistakes are carried over. See Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus. Quote: I wish I was wealthier. I wish I could afford to tell people that they did not have to go home to their evil cults. They could stay here on my farm and work for me where we can grow wisdom, knowledge, rationality and understanding. I know exactly what you mean. All that time wasted on made up stories of pregnant virgins and walking dead people. The manipulation and unelected power of Christian leaders. It's sad really.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 9th September 2011 at 05:08 AM.

9th September 2011, 05:02 AM	#17
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson Is it illegal to video record people and put it on youtube? I could have these lads over for lunch, I figure and debate them. What if I told them on the front end? What if I wore a video camera. Hey, that sounds doable. Absolutely, hey, they exist now. JW's Catholics, protestants, Mormons. All the nutty apologetics, defending genocide, infanticide, magic, Elisha and the bears who kill the children, Lot offering his daughters to be raped, Abraham's willingness to kill his son, god ordering the slaughter of the Moabites, Amalekites, etc. tons of these debates are on youtube right now. People ask me all the time how Mormons can believe such nonsense, this is where I have to credit James Randi. Randi tells us that it's easiest to fool ourselves. Once we latch onto a cherished belief like Scientology or Mormonism or Christianity, it really doesn't matter just how wacky the stories are. To Hindus Christianity is a bizarre joke. They are not invested in it. Mormons have an investment. Family, friends, a lifetime of study and dedication. Not to mention expectations of salvation. Plus, it's the greatest ego stroke. God the biggest, baddest, meanest mo fo in the universe is on your side. Me, I'll take reality over holy ghost stories.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 9th September 2011 at 05:19 AM.

9th September 2011, 09:26 AM	#18
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,635	You have a gift for storytelling, Bill, and also seem to be a decent raconteur. If you video record future conversations with Mormons, record them saying they agree to be recorded and you should be fine. Since I have the impression you know more Muslims than Mormons, maybe you could arrange a similar conversation with one or two of your Muslim friends and post a link to it. Speaking of Muslims, I was a bit confused where you responded: "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." It sounds like you're trying to say that if Mormonism were real, you would still be able to prove it was fake using the same methods used prove Islam was fake. Is that a fair paraphrase of your intended meaning?

9th September 2011, 09:49 AM	#19
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,646	Originally Posted by RandFan Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones. As for the rest, I can often spot Mormons but I was raised one and know the subtle cues. The underwear right?
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

9th September 2011, 11:19 AM	#20
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,743	For some reason, I now have John Denver stuck in my head. "Mormons, on my way home, are annoying.... Mormons, at my door, can make me mad..... Mormons, underwater, sound more peaceful..... Mormons, almost always, make me sad....."
	__________________ As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero. -Vaarsuvius It's a rum state of affairs when you feel like punching a jar of mayonnaise in the face. -Charlie Brooker

9th September 2011, 12:01 PM	#21
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Multivac I've lived in the UK my entire life and have never, to my knowledge, met a mormon. Various flavours of christian, an occasional catholic, JWs, a few muslims and thousands of atheists but no mormons. Is there a way to tell a mormon from the way they look, or dress? . Earnest pairs if young men, wearing white shirts, pants, ties, on bicycles, careening around the area.

9th September 2011, 12:03 PM	#22
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Spindrift The underwear right? . The visits never get that intimate.

9th September 2011, 12:18 PM	#23
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,317	Originally Posted by I Ratant . The visits never get that intimate. Say you so? Read the Joyce McKinney case 1978, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_sex_in_chains_case. Joyce came to England in pursuit of a Mormon missionary she fancied, chained him up and had all manner of bondage and oral sex sessions. Gave the expression "missionary position" a whole new meaning. The tabloids loved it! The missionary suffered no permanent ill effects and is now a real estate agent in the USA. Rape of a man by a woman was in 1978 a crime unknown to English Law, so Ms McKinney went unpunished.
Craig B Illuminator Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,317

9th September 2011, 12:18 PM	#24
Sword_Of_Truth Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 11,497	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Earnest pairs if young men, wearing white shirts, pants, ties, on bicycles, careening around the area. That's only our larval form. Adult mormons are indistinguishable from adult homo sapiens.

9th September 2011, 12:24 PM	#25
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	I've seen earnest older men, white shirts, ties, and slacks in pairs at the Mall. No contact with me, though. There were a few at Lockheed I worked with. Religion never came up.

9th September 2011, 01:42 PM	#26
Bill Thompson Banned Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Redmond, Washington Posts: 6,176	Originally Posted by Mister Agenda You have a gift for storytelling, Bill, and also seem to be a decent raconteur. If you video record future conversations with Mormons, record them saying they agree to be recorded and you should be fine. Since I have the impression you know more Muslims than Mormons, maybe you could arrange a similar conversation with one or two of your Muslim friends and post a link to it. Speaking of Muslims, I was a bit confused where you responded: "Well, if Mormonism was real, it would mean Islam was fake. The logical studies used to discount Islam as not being real could be applied back to Mormonism to prove it was fake." It sounds like you're trying to say that if Mormonism were real, you would still be able to prove it was fake using the same methods used prove Islam was fake. Is that a fair paraphrase of your intended meaning? I might have left too much out of the transcript of the conversation. The idea is basically this. The two religions contradict each other and so that cannot both be real. If Islam is real, then there is one universal God and he created the universe and all human life for the purpose of praising Him and you have to do these rituals described in Islam to make Him happy. Also, according to Islam, Jesus was not the son of God but a prophet and (get this) Jesus tricked the Romans into killing Judas instead. Mohammed made up that bit in order to remove the idea that Jesus sacrificed himeslf for people. Now, Mormonism has a whole different narrative on Jesus Christ and the Universe. Joesph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon at a time when people had a different understanding of the cosmos. People in the old West of the USA knew by that time that the heavens were vast and distant and not a dome of spheres traveling around a earthcentric universe like during Mohammed's time. But this does not mean the Mormon view of the universe is correct. Back then, they had no concept of the Big Bang. It was thought that the universe was constant and the stars were suns that had may or may not have a life span. But the universe, as thought during Smith's time, was never really created. Ah, but the Earth, itself was created. So, according to Smith, God was just the creator of the Earth. Other planets, according to Mormonism, had other Gods and there is this whole bit about we are all God's children and if we are all good Mormons, we can grow up to be Gods, have our own planet, or own goddess wives, and have endless sex to make endless sprit babies to be put to the test on a planet. Mormons and Muslims have radically different views of the univese and the meannig of life. They both cannot be corrrect. A Mormon can look at Islam and say, "look, Islam is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Mohammed was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the Quran." A Muslim can look at Mormonism and say "look, Mormonism is made up because it is obvious there are mistakes in it and Josesph Smith was just borrowing from other texts and understandings of that time and history to invent the The Book of Mormon." Both are valid, equal and rational assessments of each other. Both are valuations that neigher would be willing to make about themselves because each side is blind to their own faults. Then cancel each other out. In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table.

9th September 2011, 01:54 PM	#27
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Or perhaps: "The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." - Mark Twain
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

9th September 2011, 03:00 PM	#28
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Comparing LDS to Islam is useful as both have ah verifiable historical.. if I may.. Genesis.... Then one can extrapolate the human sources of each back to the murky past, and winkle out the stuff that is all too human, and separate it from the supernatural crap added as filler.

9th September 2011, 03:03 PM	#29
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Two young Mormon men came to my door just last week. They offered to do chores and of course wanted to tell me about God. I didn't have the heart to take advantage of them so I turned down the chores offer. But I did preach back a bit before they left. I told them the god they worshiped was an atrocious baby killer and they should reread (because they claimed to have read the whole Bible) the story of the Amalekites. Quote: 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

9th September 2011, 03:31 PM	#30
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Spindrift The underwear right? Yes but I can't always tell if they have a coat or sweater on. It's the mannerisms, colloquialisms, style of dress and hair.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith Last edited by RandFan; 9th September 2011 at 03:49 PM.

9th September 2011, 03:44 PM	#31
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Bill Thompson Then cancel each other out. In a way, it is a kind of blessing that we have these to ideologies among us to clear each other off the table. Mormons can do the same with Christianity and Islam. They clear each other off the table. But that's not a very good argument. It's better to point out how belief systems are irrational. Take Christianity. It claims that it's roots are Judaism and it claims that the god of the OT is the same god of the NT. The same yesterday, today and forever. Yet the god of the OT had a lot of deplorable traits. Jealousy, duplicity, murderous, tortured and killed children, demanded his followers to commit genocide, he even ordered the slaughter of entire groups of people. Deuteronomy 20:17: But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. Very different from Jesus and the god of the NT. Sure doesn't seem the same.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

9th September 2011, 03:48 PM	#32
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,912	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Two young Mormon men came to my door just last week. They offered to do chores and of course wanted to tell me about God. I didn't have the heart to take advantage of them so I turned down the chores offer. But I did preach back a bit before they left. Quote: 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. I told them the god they worshiped was an atrocious baby killer and they should reread (because they claimed to have read the whole Bible) the story of the Amalekites. Exactly, anyone who believes in the god of the Bible worships a blood thirsty tyrant who not only kills children but tortures them. Imagine what it must have been like for the mothers and siblings who didn't die first watch as loved ones were destroyed. I couldn't bear it. I would hide my eyes. God? Could he hide his eyes? How did he feel? Did he rejoice? Was he indifferent to the suffering? What?
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

9th September 2011, 03:52 PM	#33
joobie i don't care Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in my dreams, i am still in perú Posts: 2,517	Originally Posted by RandFan Missionaries wear white shirts and ties. They travel in pairs and look like clones. the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag.
	__________________ Don't you just hate it when some uppity Black Guys escape from the Liberal Brainwash? - Robert Prey

9th September 2011, 03:56 PM	#34
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 11,610	Quote: "If the Book of Mormon was fake, how would that look like?" They were stunned and silent. I have to admit that I wouldn't have a quick response to such an incoherent question either. Anyway, cool story, bro.

9th September 2011, 05:27 PM	#35
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,798	Originally Posted by joobie the usual dead giveaway for me is the nametag. Really? Not 2 men together at your doorstep wearing white shirts and ties?
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)