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#1 |
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Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Iles d'la Manche
Posts: 198
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Electromagnetic Hypersensitivity. Real deal or real delusion?
An article on the UK's BBC news site caught my interest recently:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14887428 It appears that some people are allergic to wi-fi. Without wishing to demean the apparent discomfort and pain of the sufferers I was wondering if anyone could shed some light as to what is really going on. I find it hard to believe that the invention of wi-fi is responsible. Is this 'syndrome' in some way related to disquiet over mobile phone masts ? I'm just a curious bod, so would appreciate an informed opinion or two, preferably with a link for me to do some further reading. much obliged, CTB |
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#2 |
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Knave of the Dudes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden
Posts: 7,414
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Hysteric nonsense. Humans cannot sense weak electromagnetic fields. Double-blind tests with covered screens turned on have all yielded negative result.
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Disagreement begets progress. |
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#3 |
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Critical Thinker
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far North Glendale
Posts: 463
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__________________
I may be going to hell in a bucket But at least I'm enjoying the ride. -- John Perry Barlow |
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#4 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 8,255
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From that same BBC article:
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If that person is so sensitive to magnetic fields, the Earth's field must be a nightmare for her I also wonder if the EHS mob understand that they are bathed in all kinds of Electromagnetic radiation as the subject of the article says:
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#5 |
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Student
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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I found a good publication by Sense About Science which covers a lot of this stuff :
http://www.senseaboutscience.org/dat...fRadiation.pdf
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#6 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland)
Posts: 7,127
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#7 |
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Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 22,091
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Quote:
Has there been a proper report of this? Without further details there's no way of knowing, for example, how effective the blinding may have been. |
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#8 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 8,255
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If I understand the BBC article correctly
The study was carried out by scientists at Louisiana State University led by Dr Andrew Marino and the results were published by the International Journal of Neuroscience. Here is a link to the Abstract: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...rchHistoryKey= A quick scan of the abstract:
edited to add...... Dr Marino's other published works include: - Where's the EPA's sense of decency ? - Meta-Analysis of Multi-Generational Studies of Mice Exposed to Power-Frequency Electric Fields - Partizanist Discrimination in California Favors Power Companies http://informahealthcare.com/action/...w+A.+Marino%29 He's been looking for this for 20 years and now he has found it |
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#9 |
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Student
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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Interestingly the abstract also says :
Quote:
So she couldn't sense when the EM field was there or not. A lot of people do claim to be able to do that. - Drelda |
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#10 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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Quote:
(Voltage applied to metal plates creates an electrical field.) Hans |
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__________________
Don't. Just don't. |
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#11 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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__________________
Don't. Just don't. |
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#12 |
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Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Iles d'la Manche
Posts: 198
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Thank-you all for your responses and opinions.
I'm minded along the route of psychosomatic response, but know very little ( actually, next to nothing - ok zip all ) about this field. As for creating an electromagnetic field, wouldn't a coil of copper ( eg a 10 metre extension cable ) be able to provide a controllable experiment? What I mean is, if it wasn't uncoiled yet plugged in and a series of desk lamps, starting at 15watts increasing to 60watts, were used there might be some noticable ( therefore recordable ) differences to subject our poor sufferer to. ( Okay, laughably unscientific, but you get the picture. It'd be cheap, too!) I'm more interested in where the symptoms of the sufferers come from. Is it possible to will yourself to illness? I need to dig around more in the illness presented, I s'pose. I've seen a very young nephew end up in hospital thanks to eating a peanut ( he's none the worse, thankfully to the docs ) He's got a genuine allergy and a pretty severe one at that. His symptoms, I'd imagine, are hard to fake. A bit of me wonders if it's the word 'radiation' although my nephew doesn't go to hospital because there are bags of peanuts in the shop. Apologies, beginning to have a bit of thought-drift. As I said before... ...much obliged! CTB |
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#13 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,111
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Delusion.
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#14 |
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Trigger Happy Pacifist,
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 1,877
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What about magnetic fields, I wonder? There's that small iron deposit on the bridge of everyone's nose, and on more than one occasion, I've urged people to wave a magnet in front of it. Some people think I'm making stuff up (since they feel nothing), but if I wave a magnet between my own eyes, I get a really uncomfortable feeling that resembles a headache. That suggests that people have different sensitivities to magnets... maybe that's what these people are reacting to.
Speakers have tiny magnets in them... or maybe I'm reaching too far... |
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__________________
I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh |
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#15 |
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Muse
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 714
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__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#16 |
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Muse
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 714
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'VM', Volts per meter? Sounds like an electric field. If it was a magnetic field then it would be measured in Ampere turns per meter or Newton meters per Amp. And they would be using coils, not plates.
Originally Posted by The Don
300V/m isn't that much anyway. Now, had they applied 2450V to the subject with a galvanic connection, she might have felt a bit more uncomfortable.
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__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
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#17 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,660
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Obviously biased. You either have to draw blindly from a mixed bag of identical magnets and non-magnets or have someone do the picking and waving for you. So far all you're doing is proving the placebo effect (in reverse).
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#18 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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Psychosomatic is absolutely the best bet for this. Especially since nearly all the reported symptoms are subjective.
Quote:
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There are even rare cases of mentally induced blindness, speechlessness (not that rare), deafness, and various degrees of paralysis.
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After his experience, he doesn't want to get within visible distance of a bag of peanuts. An understandable, if irrational reaction. Hans |
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Don't. Just don't. |
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#19 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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__________________
Don't. Just don't. |
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#20 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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Yes, I deduce that, too, but it should not be left to deduction. A scientific report should be concise.
VM is also used to indicate electromagnetic field strength.
Quote:
However, I suspect that she was being made aware of the switch off/on times (being asked to report every time, or something), that could give the result pattern they report: She reacted to the changes, but was not able to indicate whether there was a field or not. Hans |
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__________________
Don't. Just don't. |
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#21 |
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Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Iles d'la Manche
Posts: 198
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ah yes, of course. I'd conflated two differing thoughts and put them in a lazy sentence. What I was trying to get at is: Some people seem to spook themselves silly on hearing the word 'radiation' whereas something like a peanut allergy brings very definite physical responses. CTB |
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#22 |
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Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 22,091
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#23 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Nova Roma
Posts: 8,419
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If she's sensitive to 60Hz it's even worse - that's the frequency of AC power in the US, so it's everywhere in every building.
I'd say she may have detected the 60Hz vibrations in the plates that applying such a voltage is basically guaranteed to create. They would make a low amplitude, low frequency sound - perhaps too slight to be consciously aware of, but it might make one feel uneasy if it's right on the edge of perception. Nothing whatsoever to do with wifi, though. And it's not as though it's a surprise that humans are sensitive to some frequencies of EM radiation - we can see, after all. ETA - just to be clear, I'm not saying she (or anyone) is able to directly detect 60Hz EM fields of any non-insane amplitude. I'm saying she might have heard them through the sound the vibrating plates made, and that even if she could sense the EM fields directly, you couldn't conclude anything about wifi from that - not any more than you can conclude something about sensitivity to wifi from the fact that we can see light. |
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#24 |
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Master Poster
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Massongy, France
Posts: 2,812
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I've seen a couple interviews of people pretending to suffer from such an oversensibility on French and Swiss TV channels. Both cases demanded that the interviewers come all the way to some location away in the countryside supposedly protected from electromagnetic fields, but were perfectly happy and symptoms free while being surrounded for quite a long time by a camera, sound equipments and various transmitters (and very likely the reporter's and technicians' active mobile phones), explaining how awful those EF were, and what horrible symptoms they would exhibit had the interview been conducted downtown, bla, bla, bla.
I remember thinking how ridiculously pathetic they were looking, especially the Swiss guy who was in a mountain area I know quite well and has excellent wifi and mobile phone reception ... |
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__________________
"Let me explain the order of things for you. There's the aristocracy, the upper class, middle class, working class, dumb animals, waiters, creeping things, head lice, people who eat packet soup, and then you." (Chef) |
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#25 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,241
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Supposed symptoms of exposure to low intensity EMF: headache, fatigue, tinnitus, dizziness, memory deficits, irregular heart beat, and whole-body skin symptoms.
Symptoms of exposure to very high intensity EMF (standing in front of a radar dish): burns, organ failure, loss of consciousness, death. So, with enough power, you get visible, physical, and even fatal symptoms. But anything less than that and you get undetectable symptoms that could easily be psychosomatic? |
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#26 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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Not quite. In the medium level, you get a feeling of heat, superficial burns, probably reduced fertility 1)1) and maybe increased cancer risk 2).
1) Supported by a very solid amount of anecdotes from radar technicians. 2) Not well supported; an over average level occurrence of cancer among military radar operators recently turned out to be due to radioactive radiation from certain components (thyratrons) in older types of radar sets. Hans |
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Don't. Just don't. |
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#27 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Nova Roma
Posts: 8,419
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There's no doubt that very high amplitude EM radiation has physical effects on humans. But here are two things to bear in mind.
First, the effects depend very strongly on the frequency. For example, the microwaves in a microwave oven have a very strong effect on anything that contains water (like humans), but if you changed the frequency just a little, the effect would be greatly reduced. So there are always at least two important factors in play - frequency and amplitude or intensity. Second, the intensity of radiation you're exposed to standing right in front of a radar dish is vastly different from the intensity you're exposed to being in the same room as a wifi router. If you were to extrapolate based on the power absorbed, you'd probably find the effect is absurdly small for wifi (although I haven't done that). But biology doesn't work that way - very low levels are likely to be even less harmful than that linear extrapolation would tell you, because biological systems tend to be robust to small perturbations. |
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#28 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,417
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__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick |
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#29 |
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What was the question?
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 7,910
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__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
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#30 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,241
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#31 |
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Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea
Posts: 16,602
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__________________
Don't. Just don't. |
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#32 |
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Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,410
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Also, note this observation from the abstract,
The symptoms were caused primarily by field transitions (off–on, on–off) rather than the presence of the field.On the face of it, it is not unreasonable to conclude that their "procedure specifically designed to minimize unintentional sensory cues" failed and that she could either hear the switch being thrown, or there were other cues that the researchers missed. |
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__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite Forum Birdwatching Webpage |
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#33 |
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Trigger Happy Pacifist,
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 1,877
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So I've convinced myself and a few others to feel sensations we're not really feeling through suggestion and by waving objects around? My career as a mentalist is off to a great start!
![]() I've never had another person wave a magnet in front of my nose with my eyes closed. May be worth trying if the subject comes up again (and I have a magnet handy ) I've never given it much thought. Just figured it was one of those weird things about the human body, since there is an iron deposit there, and iron is magnetic.It's entirely possible that the sensation is the result of a placebo effect, but... ...what if it isn't? I was really just wondering aloud if that could explain any of that sensitivity to electromagnetism these people were apparently having. |
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__________________
I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell. --Daniel Tosh |
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#34 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,485
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__________________
~~Na eth'er aa, ammre' en ank'aar'eith, d'emner'aa-, asd'reng'aather, em'n'err-aae...~ - Alenara Al'Kher'aat, aged 347 |
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#35 |
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Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 22,091
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__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#36 |
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Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Nova Roma
Posts: 8,419
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A powerful enough magnetic field will affect the human body. It can make a frog levitate, after all. And in principle it could affect cognition, which relies on electric currents. However I don't think there's any evidence that even the strongest (DC) fields we're capable of generating in the lab are detectable to people.
Yes, that was my suggestion above. Switching an electric (or magnetic) field on and off is guaranteed to generate sound at the switching frequency unless you do it in a vacuum or in an extremely well-isolated way, and humans are sensitive to quite low levels of acoustic energy. |
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#37 |
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Extrapolate!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,009
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Not just in principle; they can, and sometimes in a a fairly subtle yet scary way*. Though this experiment was based on electromagnetic induction rather than simply a strong but nearly static field.
Good idea. *PS: Post 666. Muahaha. |
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__________________
For every philosopher, there exists an equal and opposite philosopher. They're both wrong. |
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#38 |
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Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe
Posts: 14,175
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#39 |
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Intellectual Gladiator
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the midst of a vast, beautiful & uncaring universe
Posts: 14,175
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#40 |
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Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada's Texas
Posts: 1,163
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__________________
One man's reason that something is not reliable evidence is another man's whine about how others won't buy 3 magic beans with the family cow. - hgc |
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