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Undesired Walrus · 21st September 2011, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

Did you not vote labour previously? After all they've just wasted 1/2 billion of our money....does that not bother you?

Anyway, I think we've had this discussion before....All three parties are pretty obnoxious - if we had a genuine left wing alternative i would vote for them in a flash. Labour betrayed the left for a decade of neo-liberal privatisation - they're as much to blame for the state of British politics as the current coalition. They shifted so far to the right that they've allowed the Tories to take us even further....

Until labour voters stop blindly following them under the impression that they're actually left wing we're going to continue along the neo-liberal road ad infinitum....

I'd like the Bennite left to stop trying to influence the party personally and for it to become a competent party of the centre-left. The kind of party that introduced a windfull tax on privatised utilities (5 billion that went into fighting unemployment) and withdrew government funding for private schools in 1997. Oh how quickly it is forgotten!

Quote:

Though this somewhat misses the point of what I was implying - ie. that because no-one cares, these things will keep happening with no accountability. This isn't a (notional) left-right issue, but an issue of government.

Andy,

Of course it would be nice if these issues were debated more.

Quote:

1) the technology didn't work

It didn't?

Quote:

2) they were massively expensive

Yes (Except the sums given don't factor in the income from the purchase of the cards), but that doesn't factor in how much would have been saved through their introduction.

Quote:

3) this wasn't about ID cards so much as integrated databases with tremendous amounts of personal information allowing monitoring of individuals on a massive scale

Tremendous amounts?

Quote:

4) they made identity theft more severe not less - once you have your identity stolen you'd be completely screwed

How does one claim someone's biometric data as their own?

Quote:

6) they were sold as a means of stopping terrorism - only all experts agreed they would have no effect on this.

Well yes, that's what you get from a government that got used to (obsessed!) using the threat of terrorism to justify anything. It would have been better to sell them as a means to enable greater personal sovereignty.

Ivor the Engineer · 21st September 2011, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

The question is twofold,

why do the media not care and why don't people care?

After all, this is waste of taxpayers' money (so more immediacy than famine overseas) on a monumental scale. The Wail cares about benefits cheats wasting taxpayers money, but not about this. That in itself is pretty odd. But then, the question of why this doesn't sell papers is pretty odd as well. It should be a very big story - which is why i suggested we get the government we deserve - ie if the public don't give a toss about hundreds of millions being pissed up against the wall, if there is zero accountability, if the same actors are employed again in the future with no lessons lost, then we deserve such abject outcomes....

The difference between benefit cheats and consultants is that the members of one group know they are taking the piss while the members of the other believe they deserve their payments.

andyandy · 21st September 2011, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

I'd like the Bennite left to stop trying to influence the party personally and for it to become a competent party of the centre-left. The kind of party that introduced a windfull tax on privatised utilities (5 billion that went into fighting unemployment) and withdrew government funding for private schools in 1997. Oh how quickly it is forgotten!

Well, centre left would be an improvement for starters

re ID cards - it might derail to have a discussion here - if you want to start a new thread i'll join in. (for a starter to the debate, wiki lists some of the criticisms in more detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identit...2006#Criticism )

It will be interesting to see where the Condems go with this issue - notionally they have been scrapped, but as is often the case, once in power, parties suddenly become attracted to collecting large amounts of data on their citizens, so i wouldn't be surprised if they make a come-back sooner or later.....

commandlinegamer · 21st September 2011, 04:50 AM

There's another story in the news today about wasteful spending. The White House apparently spent $4200 on 250 muffins. Does no-one in government check the going rate* for these things before being ripped off by greedy companies?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14997843

* - I think it's three for a pound where I am, currently.

Ivor the Engineer · 21st September 2011, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

There's another story in the news today about wasteful spending. The White House apparently spent $4200 on 250 muffins. Does no-one in government check the going rate* for these things before being ripped off by greedy companies?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14997843

* - I think it's three for a pound where I am, currently.

To be fair the muffins were only $1 each, but the delivery, gratuity and sales tax came to $15.80.

andyandy · 21st September 2011, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

There's another story in the news today about wasteful spending. The White House apparently spent $4200 on 250 muffins. Does no-one in government check the going rate* for these things before being ripped off by greedy companies?

That is pretty ludicrous - but i think it also shows how small waste is somehow more personalised and more newsworthy than big waste....

Jackie Smith claiming for a bathroom plug, two Jags claiming for 2 toilet seats and a Tory toff claiming for a duck house stand out in the memory - but none of them were massive expenses....

As Stalin may have said; a small amount of waste is a tragedy, a large amount of waste is just a statistic?

Undesired Walrus · 21st September 2011, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

two Jags claiming for 2 toilet seats

A comical story, but it never happened.

andyandy · 21st September 2011, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

A comical story, but it never happened.

From memory I think I remember Prescott being interviewed over this - I thought he did claim for two ( though because one was broken not because he needed to use two at the same time )

Interestingly the Wail is running a front page splash today on the decision to axe the NHS IT scheme....

Quote:

The biggest civilian IT project of its kind in the world, it has already squandered at least £12.7billion. Some estimates put the cost far higher.

Analysts say the sum would have paid the salaries of more than 60,000 nurses for a decade.*

The announcement follows strong criticism from MPs who accused Labour of wasting a further £500million of taxpayers’ money on a failed bid to set up a network of regional Fire Brigade control centres.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...red-drain.html

geni · 21st September 2011, 05:11 PM

On paper the scheme makes sense. Given modern technology 46 fire and rescue control rooms is cleary non-optimum. The lack of consultation is meaningless. Labour had badly fallen out with the fire brigade to the point where it was unlikely any meaningful consultation could take place. The choice of a company with no experience with the emergancy services isn't that bad since well everyone has to start somewhere.

The most obious mistake was trying to do the whole thing at once.

The NHS situation is slightly more complex. If you are prepared to accept medical records on computers (and it doesn't really matter if you don't they already are) then the principle is sound. The fact that the NHS has ended up with a range of local and incompatible IT systems demonstrates a demand. The problem was with the implementation.

commandlinegamer · 22nd September 2011, 08:57 AM

Recipes for those expensive muffins:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15016268

21st September 2011, 04:22 AM	#41
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,904	Originally Posted by andyandy Did you not vote labour previously? After all they've just wasted 1/2 billion of our money....does that not bother you? Anyway, I think we've had this discussion before....All three parties are pretty obnoxious - if we had a genuine left wing alternative i would vote for them in a flash. Labour betrayed the left for a decade of neo-liberal privatisation - they're as much to blame for the state of British politics as the current coalition. They shifted so far to the right that they've allowed the Tories to take us even further.... Until labour voters stop blindly following them under the impression that they're actually left wing we're going to continue along the neo-liberal road ad infinitum.... I'd like the Bennite left to stop trying to influence the party personally and for it to become a competent party of the centre-left. The kind of party that introduced a windfull tax on privatised utilities (5 billion that went into fighting unemployment) and withdrew government funding for private schools in 1997. Oh how quickly it is forgotten! Quote: Though this somewhat misses the point of what I was implying - ie. that because no-one cares, these things will keep happening with no accountability. This isn't a (notional) left-right issue, but an issue of government. Andy, Of course it would be nice if these issues were debated more. Quote: 1) the technology didn't work It didn't? Quote: 2) they were massively expensive Yes (Except the sums given don't factor in the income from the purchase of the cards), but that doesn't factor in how much would have been saved through their introduction. Quote: 3) this wasn't about ID cards so much as integrated databases with tremendous amounts of personal information allowing monitoring of individuals on a massive scale Tremendous amounts? Quote: 4) they made identity theft more severe not less - once you have your identity stolen you'd be completely screwed How does one claim someone's biometric data as their own? Quote: 6) they were sold as a means of stopping terrorism - only all experts agreed they would have no effect on this. Well yes, that's what you get from a government that got used to (obsessed!) using the threat of terrorism to justify anything. It would have been better to sell them as a means to enable greater personal sovereignty.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

21st September 2011, 04:23 AM	#42
Ivor the Engineer Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South Britain, near the middle Posts: 9,553	Originally Posted by andyandy The question is twofold, why do the media not care and why don't people care? After all, this is waste of taxpayers' money (so more immediacy than famine overseas) on a monumental scale. The Wail cares about benefits cheats wasting taxpayers money, but not about this. That in itself is pretty odd. But then, the question of why this doesn't sell papers is pretty odd as well. It should be a very big story - which is why i suggested we get the government we deserve - ie if the public don't give a toss about hundreds of millions being pissed up against the wall, if there is zero accountability, if the same actors are employed again in the future with no lessons lost, then we deserve such abject outcomes.... The difference between benefit cheats and consultants is that the members of one group know they are taking the piss while the members of the other believe they deserve their payments.
	__________________ My Blog.

21st September 2011, 04:31 AM	#43
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus I'd like the Bennite left to stop trying to influence the party personally and for it to become a competent party of the centre-left. The kind of party that introduced a windfull tax on privatised utilities (5 billion that went into fighting unemployment) and withdrew government funding for private schools in 1997. Oh how quickly it is forgotten! Well, centre left would be an improvement for starters re ID cards - it might derail to have a discussion here - if you want to start a new thread i'll join in. (for a starter to the debate, wiki lists some of the criticisms in more detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identit...2006#Criticism ) It will be interesting to see where the Condems go with this issue - notionally they have been scrapped, but as is often the case, once in power, parties suddenly become attracted to collecting large amounts of data on their citizens, so i wouldn't be surprised if they make a come-back sooner or later.....
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

21st September 2011, 04:50 AM	#44
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,994	There's another story in the news today about wasteful spending. The White House apparently spent $4200 on 250 muffins. Does no-one in government check the going rate* for these things before being ripped off by greedy companies? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14997843 * - I think it's three for a pound where I am, currently.
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

21st September 2011, 04:57 AM	#45
Ivor the Engineer Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: South Britain, near the middle Posts: 9,553	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer There's another story in the news today about wasteful spending. The White House apparently spent $4200 on 250 muffins. Does no-one in government check the going rate* for these things before being ripped off by greedy companies? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14997843 * - I think it's three for a pound where I am, currently. To be fair the muffins were only $1 each, but the delivery, gratuity and sales tax came to $15.80.
	__________________ My Blog.

21st September 2011, 07:44 AM	#46
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer There's another story in the news today about wasteful spending. The White House apparently spent $4200 on 250 muffins. Does no-one in government check the going rate* for these things before being ripped off by greedy companies? That is pretty ludicrous - but i think it also shows how small waste is somehow more personalised and more newsworthy than big waste.... Jackie Smith claiming for a bathroom plug, two Jags claiming for 2 toilet seats and a Tory toff claiming for a duck house stand out in the memory - but none of them were massive expenses.... As Stalin may have said; a small amount of waste is a tragedy, a large amount of waste is just a statistic?
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

21st September 2011, 08:11 AM	#47
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,904	Originally Posted by andyandy two Jags claiming for 2 toilet seats A comical story, but it never happened.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

21st September 2011, 03:59 PM	#48
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus A comical story, but it never happened. From memory I think I remember Prescott being interviewed over this - I thought he did claim for two ( though because one was broken not because he needed to use two at the same time ) Interestingly the Wail is running a front page splash today on the decision to axe the NHS IT scheme.... Quote: The biggest civilian IT project of its kind in the world, it has already squandered at least £12.7billion. Some estimates put the cost far higher. Analysts say the sum would have paid the salaries of more than 60,000 nurses for a decade.* The announcement follows strong criticism from MPs who accused Labour of wasting a further £500million of taxpayers’ money on a failed bid to set up a network of regional Fire Brigade control centres. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...red-drain.html
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

21st September 2011, 05:11 PM	#49
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,642	On paper the scheme makes sense. Given modern technology 46 fire and rescue control rooms is cleary non-optimum. The lack of consultation is meaningless. Labour had badly fallen out with the fire brigade to the point where it was unlikely any meaningful consultation could take place. The choice of a company with no experience with the emergancy services isn't that bad since well everyone has to start somewhere. The most obious mistake was trying to do the whole thing at once. The NHS situation is slightly more complex. If you are prepared to accept medical records on computers (and it doesn't really matter if you don't they already are) then the principle is sound. The fact that the NHS has ended up with a range of local and incompatible IT systems demonstrates a demand. The problem was with the implementation.

22nd September 2011, 08:57 AM	#50
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,994	Recipes for those expensive muffins: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15016268
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.