Electric Airplane

Number Six · 4th October 2011, 09:55 AM

There was a thread awhile back, either here or in Social Issues, and I can't find it now but part of the idea was that, we're running out of oil and therefore modern society is screwed as far as being able to transport things because planes won't ever be able to fly without oil or conventional jet fuel. I just saw the story below so I thought I'd post it.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/04...ize/?hpt=hp_t2

excaza · 4th October 2011, 10:09 AM

This is a great achievement, but the innovation for aerospace applications needs to come from energy storage, not propulsion or structure design. Short of a nuclear reactor (yes, it's happened), there currently isn't a viable solution that has better weight-energy efficiency than fuel for large aircraft. I'm sure someone could easily make an electric engine that could put out sizable amount of thrust, but it wouldn't be able to hold enough charge to get off the ground.

I Ratant · 4th October 2011, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by excaza

This is a great achievement, but the innovation for aerospace applications needs to come from energy storage, not propulsion or structure design. Short of a nuclear reactor (yes, it's happened), there currently isn't a viable solution that has better weight-energy efficiency than fuel for large aircraft. I'm sure someone could easily make an electric engine that could put out sizable amount of thrust, but it wouldn't be able to hold enough charge to get off the ground.

.
ISTR the current

record for electric powered flight is 96 hours non-stop...

Although the plane is really lightweight and unoccupied...http://www.nasaimages.org/luna/servl...=2217&trs=9989..
.
It has flown from several places.
A passenger carrying electric... not yet.
And electrics do require lots of old-fuel manufacturing processes...

excaza · 4th October 2011, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Although the plane is really lightweight and unoccupied...

Yes, that's my point. You don't need a lot of thrust (and therefore, energy required) if you have no weight.

Number Six · 4th October 2011, 10:38 AM

My point wasn't that electric planes are as good as non-electric planes right now but rather they are improving, and more generally technology is improving, all the time and so the notion of society collapsing when one particular fuel source runs out someday seems farfetched.

I Ratant · 4th October 2011, 10:47 AM

We'll always have wind...

steve s · 4th October 2011, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Number Six

...because planes won't ever be able to fly without oil or conventional jet fuel.

Navy Tests Biofuel-Powered 'Green Hornet'

Steve S

catsmate1 · 4th October 2011, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by steve s

Navy Tests Biofuel-Powered 'Green Hornet'

Steve S

The first commercial aircraft to fly using biofuel was back in 2008; a Virgin B747 flew using a 20% mix of coconut and babassu oil.
The Dutch airforce flew a AH-64D Apache on a 50% mix last year.
The USAF flew a C17 transport on a 50% mix (beef tallow derived) last year also.
Airbus has tested aircraft using biofuels for several years; Iberia has flown an A320, on a commercial flight, using a 20% mix of camelina sativa derived oil.

Seriously, anyone who thinks fossil fuels are the only option for aviation either doesn't know what they're talking about or is reveling in doom and gloom for some reason.

Pooneil · 4th October 2011, 11:52 AM

First of all we are not running out of energy right now. The second thing to remember is the power of substitution in economics. As the cost of oil increases, substitutes will come into use for the least efficient uses of oil that will extend the supply for an eve longer long time.

The issue of an electric airplane revolves around weight and energy density. Develop a light weight, quickly rechargeable battery with a huge capacity and electric airliners will take off. But before that happens we will have a slower heavier battery with a lower energy density that will replace liquid fuels in powering cars (we already do). Over time electric road transportation can free up oil for use as in air transportation where fuel substitutions are not as easily made. Also remember that coal and natural gas can be converted to liquid fuels. The balance of cost between air and surface travel may change, but there is little reason to fear we won't be able to have air travel in the future.

The Kilted Yaksman · 4th October 2011, 06:36 PM

As soon as I get my Gasoline from Dead Cats refinery really up to speed it'll all work out ok.

I Ratant · 4th October 2011, 06:52 PM

Driving the roads in the Deep South, there's lots of roadkill that can be ~~picked~~ scraped up and "recycled".
.
A problem I have with electric planes is that with the toy airplanes, one basically buys all the fuel that will ever be used, up front.
Before using any of it.
With prudent flying, the batteries can be recharged many times.
Large planes use large batteries.
I can't afford $500 for a battery set, while with a fuel airplane, I can buy a gallon of gas, use that, buy another.... and if the plane crashes, I lose the fuel in the plane. The fuel in the jugs is still available.
A major crash with a large electric, and it's like I've crashed into 30 gallons of fuel all at once when the battery is destroyed.

There's more important things like lives in full-scales to be concerned about, but the battery/fuel situation cost will be similar.

dasmiller · 4th October 2011, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Driving the roads in the Deep South, there's lots of roadkill that can be ~~picked~~ scraped up and "recycled".
.
A problem I have with electric planes is that with the toy airplanes, one basically buys all the fuel that will ever be used, up front.
Before using any of it.
With prudent flying, the batteries can be recharged many times.
Large planes use large batteries.
I can't afford $500 for a battery set, while with a fuel airplane, I can buy a gallon of gas, use that, buy another.... and if the plane crashes, I lose the fuel in the plane. The fuel in the jugs is still available.
A major crash with a large electric, and it's like I've crashed into 30 gallons of fuel all at once when the battery is destroyed.

How big are your airplanes? My experience is different, but I haven't gone bigger that .46 glow equivalent with electric.

Andrew Wiggin · 5th October 2011, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

A passenger carrying electric... not yet.

If you read the link from the OP, the plane in the article was a four seater. The competition called for the use of less than one gallon of fuel or the equivalent energy expenditure per person carried, moved 200 miles in two hours or less. It must have had a really nice set of batteries.

Andrew Wiggin · 5th October 2011, 02:49 AM

Oh, and they actually did a lot better than required, using the equivalent of a half gallon of fuel per passenger.

excaza · 5th October 2011, 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate1

Seriously, anyone who thinks fossil fuels are the only option for aviation either doesn't know what they're talking about or is reveling in doom and gloom for some reason.

^^^

I can probably make a few guesses as to who started the thread the OP mentioned.

dafydd · 5th October 2011, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by excaza

Yes, that's my point. You don't need a lot of thrust (and therefore, energy required) if you have no weight.

You would need a long power cable though.

I Ratant · 5th October 2011, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by dasmiller

How big are your airplanes? My experience is different, but I haven't gone bigger that .46 glow equivalent with electric.

.
My largest... 100", was intended to compete in the Baker Marathon Electric division... It was to carry 3 8x2100 Nimh batteries in parallel for the distance and time. (Lipos today would be a better choice, but still too many bux for my very limited income.)
I burnt out a couple of expensive motors and ESCs, so I dropped the idea.
I watch the pattern guys here put $500 worth of batteries in their planes...
And they have several sets waiting for use while each one charges.
The crash can wipe it all out... the burned ones fell out of a plane..
.
.
.
Sometime later that same day..
Battery prices at Hobby Lobby... not as bad as the last time I looked...
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/4000_mah_...es_322_ctg.htm

excaza · 5th October 2011, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

You would need a long power cable though.

Given the current record, I'd say about 1 AU is a pretty good starting point.

dasmiller · 5th October 2011, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
My largest... 100", was intended to compete in the Baker Marathon Electric division... It was to carry 3 8x2100 Nimh batteries in parallel for the distance and time. (Lipos today would be a better choice, but still too many bux for my very limited income.)

LiPo prices have fallen a lot. A 3S2100 LiPo actually has a comparable total energy to an 8s2100 NiMh (11.1V vs. 9.6V nominal, but you shouldn't drive the LiPo as hard as the NiMh), and through Hobby King you can get a decent 3S2100 LiPo for under $15.

For something more like .46 size, a 4S5000 battery is (IIRC) under $70 at Hobby King.

catsmate1 · 6th October 2011, 04:28 AM

On the matter of biofuels in aviation this article may be of interest.

Quote:

Britain's first commercial flight powered by sustainable biofuel is scheduled to take off from Birmingham airport on Thursday.
Thomson Airways said its Boeing 757 would use a 50/50 mix of used cooking oil and traditional aviation fuel.
It said Thursday's flight to Lanzarote would initially be a one-off, to allow a regular supply of oil to be sourced.
The airline said the scheduled flight would use biofuel on a daily basis from 2012.

4th October 2011, 09:55 AM	#1
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	Electric Airplane There was a thread awhile back, either here or in Social Issues, and I can't find it now but part of the idea was that, we're running out of oil and therefore modern society is screwed as far as being able to transport things because planes won't ever be able to fly without oil or conventional jet fuel. I just saw the story below so I thought I'd post it. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/04...ize/?hpt=hp_t2
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017

4th October 2011, 10:09 AM	#2
excaza Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 3,632	This is a great achievement, but the innovation for aerospace applications needs to come from energy storage, not propulsion or structure design. Short of a nuclear reactor (yes, it's happened), there currently isn't a viable solution that has better weight-energy efficiency than fuel for large aircraft. I'm sure someone could easily make an electric engine that could put out sizable amount of thrust, but it wouldn't be able to hold enough charge to get off the ground.
	__________________

4th October 2011, 10:26 AM	#3
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by excaza This is a great achievement, but the innovation for aerospace applications needs to come from energy storage, not propulsion or structure design. Short of a nuclear reactor (yes, it's happened), there currently isn't a viable solution that has better weight-energy efficiency than fuel for large aircraft. I'm sure someone could easily make an electric engine that could put out sizable amount of thrust, but it wouldn't be able to hold enough charge to get off the ground. . ISTR the current record for electric powered flight is 96 hours non-stop... Although the plane is really lightweight and unoccupied...http://www.nasaimages.org/luna/servl...=2217&trs=9989.. . It has flown from several places. A passenger carrying electric... not yet. And electrics do require lots of old-fuel manufacturing processes...
	Last edited by I Ratant; 4th October 2011 at 10:27 AM.

4th October 2011, 10:27 AM	#4
excaza Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 3,632	Originally Posted by I Ratant Although the plane is really lightweight and unoccupied... Yes, that's my point. You don't need a lot of thrust (and therefore, energy required) if you have no weight.
	__________________

4th October 2011, 10:38 AM	#5
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017	My point wasn't that electric planes are as good as non-electric planes right now but rather they are improving, and more generally technology is improving, all the time and so the notion of society collapsing when one particular fuel source runs out someday seems farfetched.
Number Six JREF Kid Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,017

4th October 2011, 10:53 AM	#7
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,668	Originally Posted by Number Six ...because planes won't ever be able to fly without oil or conventional jet fuel. Navy Tests Biofuel-Powered 'Green Hornet' Steve S
steve s Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,668	__________________ "Nature abhors a moron." -- H. L. Mencken

4th October 2011, 11:12 AM	#8
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,137	Originally Posted by steve s Navy Tests Biofuel-Powered 'Green Hornet' Steve S The first commercial aircraft to fly using biofuel was back in 2008; a Virgin B747 flew using a 20% mix of coconut and babassu oil. The Dutch airforce flew a AH-64D Apache on a 50% mix last year. The USAF flew a C17 transport on a 50% mix (beef tallow derived) last year also. Airbus has tested aircraft using biofuels for several years; Iberia has flown an A320, on a commercial flight, using a 20% mix of camelina sativa derived oil. Seriously, anyone who thinks fossil fuels are the only option for aviation either doesn't know what they're talking about or is reveling in doom and gloom for some reason.

4th October 2011, 11:52 AM	#9
Pooneil Student Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 48	First of all we are not running out of energy right now. The second thing to remember is the power of substitution in economics. As the cost of oil increases, substitutes will come into use for the least efficient uses of oil that will extend the supply for an eve longer long time. The issue of an electric airplane revolves around weight and energy density. Develop a light weight, quickly rechargeable battery with a huge capacity and electric airliners will take off. But before that happens we will have a slower heavier battery with a lower energy density that will replace liquid fuels in powering cars (we already do). Over time electric road transportation can free up oil for use as in air transportation where fuel substitutions are not as easily made. Also remember that coal and natural gas can be converted to liquid fuels. The balance of cost between air and surface travel may change, but there is little reason to fear we won't be able to have air travel in the future.
Pooneil Student Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 48

4th October 2011, 06:36 PM	#10
The Kilted Yaksman Sense Offender Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 549	As soon as I get my Gasoline from Dead Cats refinery really up to speed it'll all work out ok.
	__________________ "Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."-Voltaire

4th October 2011, 06:52 PM	#11
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Driving the roads in the Deep South, there's lots of roadkill that can be ~~picked~~ scraped up and "recycled". . A problem I have with electric planes is that with the toy airplanes, one basically buys all the fuel that will ever be used, up front. Before using any of it. With prudent flying, the batteries can be recharged many times. Large planes use large batteries. I can't afford $500 for a battery set, while with a fuel airplane, I can buy a gallon of gas, use that, buy another.... and if the plane crashes, I lose the fuel in the plane. The fuel in the jugs is still available. A major crash with a large electric, and it's like I've crashed into 30 gallons of fuel all at once when the battery is destroyed. There's more important things like lives in full-scales to be concerned about, but the battery/fuel situation cost will be similar.

4th October 2011, 07:02 PM	#12
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 3,465	Originally Posted by I Ratant Driving the roads in the Deep South, there's lots of roadkill that can be ~~picked~~ scraped up and "recycled". . A problem I have with electric planes is that with the toy airplanes, one basically buys all the fuel that will ever be used, up front. Before using any of it. With prudent flying, the batteries can be recharged many times. Large planes use large batteries. I can't afford $500 for a battery set, while with a fuel airplane, I can buy a gallon of gas, use that, buy another.... and if the plane crashes, I lose the fuel in the plane. The fuel in the jugs is still available. A major crash with a large electric, and it's like I've crashed into 30 gallons of fuel all at once when the battery is destroyed. How big are your airplanes? My experience is different, but I haven't gone bigger that .46 glow equivalent with electric.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

5th October 2011, 02:47 AM	#13
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Originally Posted by I Ratant A passenger carrying electric... not yet. If you read the link from the OP, the plane in the article was a four seater. The competition called for the use of less than one gallon of fuel or the equivalent energy expenditure per person carried, moved 200 miles in two hours or less. It must have had a really nice set of batteries.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

5th October 2011, 02:49 AM	#14
Andrew Wiggin Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: A small planet named for its dirt. You'll find it filed under 'mostly harmless' Posts: 2,914	Oh, and they actually did a lot better than required, using the equivalent of a half gallon of fuel per passenger.
	__________________ "Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world." - Arthur Schopenhauer "New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled, the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in them?' " - H. G. Wells

5th October 2011, 04:05 AM	#15
excaza Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 3,632	Originally Posted by catsmate1 Seriously, anyone who thinks fossil fuels are the only option for aviation either doesn't know what they're talking about or is reveling in doom and gloom for some reason. ^^^ I can probably make a few guesses as to who started the thread the OP mentioned.
	__________________

5th October 2011, 04:59 AM	#16
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,477	Originally Posted by excaza Yes, that's my point. You don't need a lot of thrust (and therefore, energy required) if you have no weight. You would need a long power cable though.

5th October 2011, 10:20 AM	#18
excaza Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 3,632	Originally Posted by dafydd You would need a long power cable though. Given the current record, I'd say about 1 AU is a pretty good starting point.
	__________________

5th October 2011, 11:16 AM	#19
dasmiller Just the right amount of cowbell Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Well past Hither, looking for Yon Posts: 3,465	Originally Posted by I Ratant . My largest... 100", was intended to compete in the Baker Marathon Electric division... It was to carry 3 8x2100 Nimh batteries in parallel for the distance and time. (Lipos today would be a better choice, but still too many bux for my very limited income.) LiPo prices have fallen a lot. A 3S2100 LiPo actually has a comparable total energy to an 8s2100 NiMh (11.1V vs. 9.6V nominal, but you shouldn't drive the LiPo as hard as the NiMh), and through Hobby King you can get a decent 3S2100 LiPo for under $15. For something more like .46 size, a 4S5000 battery is (IIRC) under $70 at Hobby King.
	__________________ "In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt

6th October 2011, 04:28 AM	#20
catsmate1 Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Dublin (the one in Ireland) Posts: 7,137	On the matter of biofuels in aviation this article may be of interest. Quote: Britain's first commercial flight powered by sustainable biofuel is scheduled to take off from Birmingham airport on Thursday. Thomson Airways said its Boeing 757 would use a 50/50 mix of used cooking oil and traditional aviation fuel. It said Thursday's flight to Lanzarote would initially be a one-off, to allow a regular supply of oil to be sourced. The airline said the scheduled flight would use biofuel on a daily basis from 2012.