Has there been (will there ever be) any "inside job" whistleblowers?

[Nick Terry]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Some nonsense from Dave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

I have to confess that although aware of the tedious obsession with the USS Liberty displayed by many antisemites and Holocaust deniers, I had until now ignored the issue entirely. But it did not take me long to find out various facts which seem to be omitted by the antisemitic conspiraloon brigade.

Those are, the fact that the US did not take Israel up on the offer of a naval liaison officer to ensure no cases of mistaken identity could occur; the fact that Washington and Sixth Fleet seemed to believe for much of the day, long after the attacks, that the Liberty was 100 miles from the Egyptian coast when it was in fact brushing up against Egyptian waters; and the fact that the ship's commander had been ordered to continue the close-in surveillance despite enquiring whether it wasn't a better idea to stand further back away from the fighting. All this amounts to gross incompetence on the part of the US Naval command hierarchy and was practically inviting someone to attack the ship by mistake.

The clincher against the Liberty CT is the lack of motive for the attack. Various possible motives have been suggested, but none stands up to close scrutiny. What especially doesn't ring true is the idea that the IDF would resort to open methods of attack and then promptly identify themselves to the ship after they realised they'd hit an American shop. If a deliberate attack had been ordered by the Israeli high command for whatever strategic purpose is claimed, why not use a submarine? Or at the very least, fly Egyptian flags on PT boats?

In fact, the US crew thought they were under attack by the Egyptians at first; and the worry at higher levels when the first fragmentary reports came through was that the Soviets had been involved. Indeed, the Israelis discussed the possibility that they'd hit a Soviet ship at chief of the general staff level immediately after the attack. If they'd hit a Soviet ship by mistake, who knows what might have happened.

There is simply no rational motive for a deliberate attack against a US ship. I understand that Clayton and other conspiraloons don't care about a rational motive, and probably think it's enough to screech about ebil Jooz and leave it at that. But no strategic or operational level analysis can produce anything like a clear motive which will stand up to scrutiny.

Anyway, it's funny to see Clayton relying on eyewitness testimony (from servicemen in combat conditions, no less!) in support of his whacked out beliefs. Just thought I'd make note of that little irony....

[LSSBB]

Maybe there should be a separate USS Liberty thread for all this. In any case, my point has been ignored: no one silenced the USS Liberty crew. And isn't the Chicago Tribune part of the "Media"? This is one of the best examples of how it is extremely unlikely that a 9/11 conspiracy involving Controlled Demolition could have been carried off in complete silence. If you want another example, look at the Pat Tillman "friendly fire" cover up. The whistleblower in that case, that showed how far up the cover-up went, has yet to be identified. And yet the Truth still got out.

So, where are your whistleblowers, Truthers?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Dave, not to defend the CTers, but the planes the Israeli's flew were unmarked and came close enough to the Liberty to see the huge American flag, and even shot at survivors. It is why I myself don't consider Israel as a close ally of the US, and for the record I don't think the Palestinians are any saintlier. As I recall, the recorded intercepted audio transmissions from the Israeli planes also went missing from the NSA archives. There was some kind of cover-up, from everything I have read about it.

That said, I brought up the Liberty earlier as a case of how the whistleblowers always come out, and are not silenced. I can't speak for the media today, they probably call it old news. I first read about it in a Naval Intelligence journal in the early 1980s, so it doesn't look like the Government per se did a very thorough job of covering it up, in my book. And to my mind, they never do a thorough job of covering anything up.

I don't understand covering up anything if these guys are as powerful as the cters claim why worry about public opinion?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by twinstead

I'm trying to figure out what possible motive Israel would have for a deliberate attack.

False flag attack to blame on Egypt.

[Nick Terry]

Originally Posted by twinstead

I'm trying to figure out what possible motive Israel would have for a deliberate attack.

None that I can discern. May I recommend the following article, which, as it's written by an Israeli, will be dismissed ad hominem by the troglodytes, but which is linked via the Wiki page cited so cavalierly above, and which tells the basic story rather well. Pretty much all of the hypothesised motives do not stand up to scrutiny.

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by twinstead

I'm trying to figure out what possible motive Israel would have for a deliberate attack.

Oh, that bit isn't too difficult; a non-friendly power has a radio surveillance ship just off the coast while you're busy fighting a war, and you don't know what they'll do with any information it gathers, so you accidentally-on-purpose sink it. What you don't do is send out some fighters armed for ground attack, mount a half-hearted strike that doesn't sink it, send out three torpedo boats that take a look, decide not to bother sinking it, change their minds and fire on it, change their minds again and wander off, then think better of the whole thing and offer to help. You go in hard, fast, co-ordinated and properly equipped, and blow it out of the water quick before anyone asks any questions. After all, we're not talking about the USS New Jersey here; this was a modified WW2 cargo whip with four machine guns. And we are talking about the IDF, remember; not a military force well-known for its half-hearted approach.

Dave

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

False flag attack to blame on Egypt.

Despite the fact that none of the attacking forces carried Egyptian markings and the Israelis admitted responsibility for the attack almost immediately. Yes, that makes sense.

Dave

[Nick Terry]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

False flag attack to blame on Egypt.

if it was a false flag, why were the PT boats flying Israeli flags and the airstrikes carried out by Israeli-marked Mirage jets, which were not in the Egyptian arsenal?

And why did the Israelis promptly contact the ship and the American embassy admitting they'd made a colossal mistake?

[LSSBB]

Once again: where are the 9/11 whistle-blowers?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Maybe there should be a separate USS Liberty thread for all this. In any case, my point has been ignored: no one silenced the USS Liberty crew. And isn't the Chicago Tribune part of the "Media"? This is one of the best examples of how it is extremely unlikely that a 9/11 conspiracy involving Controlled Demolition could have been carried off in complete silence. If you want another example, look at the Pat Tillman "friendly fire" cover up. The whistleblower in that case, that showed how far up the cover-up went, has yet to be identified. And yet the Truth still got out.

So, where are your whistleblowers, Truthers?

My point was that the USS Liberty crew/whistle blowers were ordered at the time to keep their mouths shut or suffer severe consequences. The media and the US Government, military and Congress white washed the attempted slaughter of American servicemen by Israel. Is that freaking clear?

Whistle blowing doesn't work if the Government and the MSM work together to cover the incident/conspiracy up.

American Jewish interests instigated the cover up. Even worse Jewish interests in 1967, over 50 years ago, over half a century ago, had the throw weight to prevent the rescue, the defense of the USS Liberty.



The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings.

Millions of Americans are 9/11 whistle blowers. The MSM ignores them all.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Nick Terry

if it was a false flag, why were the PT boats flying Israeli flags and the airstrikes carried out by Israeli-marked Mirage jets, which were not in the Egyptian arsenal?

And why did the Israelis promptly contact the ship and the American embassy admitting they'd made a colossal mistake?

They were going for no witnesses.

What was with all the fly overs, beginning at 6 A.M., and the intercepted messages that confirmed Israel knew the Liberty was an American ship?

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

My point was that the USS Liberty crew/whistle blowers were ordered at the time to keep their mouths shut or suffer severe consequences. The media and the US Government, military and Congress white washed the attempted slaughter of American servicemen by Israel. Is that freaking clear?

And yet the incident became very well-known.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Whistle blowing doesn't work if the Government and the MSM work together to cover the incident/conspiracy up.

And yet it did in this instance, despite your claim that the government and the MSM have conspired to hush it up.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

American Jewish interests instigated the cover up. Even worse Jewish interests in 1967, over 50 years ago, over half a century ago, had the throw weight to prevent the rescue, the defense of the USS Liberty.

That's just neo-Nazi fantasy. We know the reason why the rescue was prevented; the worry was that the attackers were Russian and any counter-attack might start a nuclear war.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings.

The traditional definition of whistle blowers requires that they know more, not less, about a subject than the general public.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Millions of Americans are 9/11 whistle blowers. The MSM ignores them all.

And, again, the claim that millions of Americans are 9/11 truthers is simply another truther delusion.

Dave

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings.

Millions of Americans are 9/11 whistle blowers. The MSM ignores them all.

Congratulations, you're just watered down the term "whistle blower" so much that it's become entirely useless.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Nick Terry

None that I can discern. May I recommend the following article, which, as it's written by an Israeli, will be dismissed ad hominem by the troglodytes, but which is linked via the Wiki page cited so cavalierly above, and which tells the basic story rather well. Pretty much all of the hypothesised motives do not stand up to scrutiny.

Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, and a Contributing Editor of Azure and scumsucking liar.

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by Horatius

Congratulations, you're just watered down the term "whistle blower" so much that it's become entirely useless.

Instead of moving the goal posts, they made them stretch from coast to coast.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Instead of moving the goal posts, they made them stretch from coast to coast.

So you believe the crew of the USS Liberty were lying about the USS flag flying and that there were many Israeli fly overs beginning 6A.M. and the intercepted messages? Eye witnesses can be ignored as whistle blowers?

[The Platypus]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

So you believe the crew of the USS Liberty were lying about the USS flag flying and that there were many Israeli fly overs beginning 6A.M. and the intercepted messages? Eye witnesses can be ignored as whistle blowers?

When you cry wolf as much as you guys do, don't wonder why noone listens to you at all, let alone believes anything you say.

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

So you believe the crew of the USS Liberty were lying about the USS flag flying and that there were many Israeli fly overs beginning 6A.M. and the intercepted messages? Eye witnesses can be ignored as whistle blowers?

I'm not even talking about the Liberty, pay attention. I'm talking about the fact that the Truthers have yet to produce whistleblowers for the supposed 9/11 Controlled Demolition conspiracy. The Liberty crew are an example of whistleblowers.

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Nick Terry

None that I can discern. May I recommend the following article, which, as it's written by an Israeli, will be dismissed ad hominem by the troglodytes, but which is linked via the Wiki page cited so cavalierly above, and which tells the basic story rather well. Pretty much all of the hypothesised motives do not stand up to scrutiny.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, and a Contributing Editor of Azure and scumsucking liar.

Nice call, Nick.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings.

The traditional definition of whistle blowers requires that they know more, not less, about a subject than the general public.

BINGO, Dave! Dead on target!!

[paloalto]

Originally Posted by LSSBB

It is obvious (to me) that the dysfunctional intelligence organization at the time screwed up and played CYA to the 9/11 Commission. But I do not see where they knew exactly when, where, how, and with who the attacks would be done. And I see no proof still that they knew the attacks would kill 3,000.

The CIA and FBI HQ did not know that exactly 3000 people would be killed in this attack, just that thousands of Americans would be killed, yet these two agencies used criminal means to shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi by FBI criminal agent Steve Bongardt, who also knew these terrorists were inside of the US and even told FBI Agent Dina Corsi who was shutting down his investigation that these terrorists were inside of the US to kill Americans in a al Qaeda terrorists attack.

So the CIA and FBI HQ knew full well that their efforts to shut down Bongardt was going to directly result in the murder of thousands of Americans by the al Qaeda terrorists, yet they went ahead with their criminal obstruction of Bongardt’s investigation anyway. I don't know how this could be made any clearer.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Quote:

Whistle blowing doesn't work if the Government and the MSM work together to cover the incident/conspiracy up.

And yet it did in this instance, despite your claim that the government and the MSM have conspired to hush it up.

Edited by Loss Leader:

Edited for Rule 12

Our servicemen weren't protected/rescued.
Our servicemen were ordered to not talk about the attack.

The American government and the Israeli government lied about the attack for almost 50 years. Israelis and there minions are still lying about it.

Why?

Because they can with impunity.

The MSM essentially ignores the attack and the crew of whistle blowers.

Actually, is whistle blowing about an event the MSM and the goverment have covered up by ignoring it for half a century even whistle blowing?

As Noam Chomsky might say "What difference would it make."

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by carlitos

Nice call, Nick.

I love my country. Sue me.

[sylvan8798]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings.

I see you have not yet found a dictionary.

[LSSBB]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Your usual spastic speak.
The MSM essentially ignores the attack and the crew of whistle blowers.

Would you include the Chicago Tribune in the MSM?

[NoahFence]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore
The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings.

Millions of Americans are 9/11 whistle blowers. The MSM ignores them all.

More than three buildings collapsed. At least pretend to know what you're talking about, please?

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, and a Contributing Editor of Azure and scumsucking liar.

... <SNIP> ....

Edited, breach of rule 0, rule 12.

Posted By:Locknar

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

Quote:

Michael B. Oren is a Senior Fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, and a Contributing Editor of Azure and scumsucking liar.

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Would you include the Chicago Tribune in the MSM?

There's no middle ground here. You either believe the USS Liberty crew and accept them as whistle blowers or you believe Michael B. Oren.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

More than three buildings collapsed. At least pretend to know what you're talking about, please?

LSSBB. See how crapola is thrown in?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

Quote:

So you believe the crew of the USS Liberty were lying about the USS flag flying and that there were many Israeli fly overs beginning 6A.M. and the intercepted messages? Eye witnesses can be ignored as whistle blowers?

Originally Posted by The Platypus

When you cry wolf as much as you guys do, don't wonder why noone listens to you at all, let alone believes anything you say.

Ducking the question?

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

LSSBB. See how crapola is thrown in?

Am I wrong?


And next time either use acryonyms we know or just spell it out.

Quote:

Ducking the question?

Truther specialty.

You people really need to move on to conspiracies that have actual unanswered questions. 9/11 is the single most well documented attack in US (world?) history. It's not rocket surgery, kiddo.

THOUSANDS of people would have to be 'in on it'. Not. Pysically. Possible.

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

I love my country. Sue me.

A non-sequitur followed immediately by a non-sequitur. Is that irony? Irony-rich microspheres, even?

Quote:

Would you include the Chicago Tribune in the MSM?

Or the Seattle Times? Or "more than half a dozen books and TV documentaries?"

Quote:

The scope of the controversy is reflected in more than a half-dozen books and TV documentaries. They include a 1979 book, "Assault on the Liberty," by Ennes that he secretly researched while still in the Navy and was forbidden by commanders to speak publicly about the attack. "I wrote that book, literally, with tears running down my face," he said.

Last week, on the eve of the anniversary, came a new offering: "The Attack on the Liberty" by South Carolina investigative reporter James Scott, whose father, John Scott, was also a survivor of the attack and a friend of Ennes'.

Scott's book is a densely documented, suspenseful narrative that uses declassified U.S. and Israeli documents to give fresh insights into the attack and the aftermath. U.S. government officials — and a Navy Court of Inquiry — publicly accepted Israel's account of mistaken identity.

The USS Liberty media blackout conspiracy is even less effective than the Ron Paul media blackout conspiracy, it seems.

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by NoahFence

Am I wrong?


And next time either use acryonyms we know or just spell it out.



Truther specialty.

You people really need to move on to conspiracies that have actual unanswered questions. 9/11 is the single most well documented attack in US (world?) history. It's not rocket surgery, kiddo.

THOUSANDS of people would have to be 'in on it'. Not. Pysically. Possible.

Initially a few hundred hands-on tops.

LSSBB
Scholar

acryonyms? ahahhahahaha

Originally Posted by The Platypus View Post

Quote:

When you cry wolf as much as you guys do, don't wonder why noone listens to you at all, let alone believes anything you say.

Ducking the question?

[Clayton Moore]

Originally Posted by carlitos

Or the Seattle Times? Or "more than half a dozen books and TV documentaries?"


The USS Liberty media blackout conspiracy is even less effective than the Ron Paul media blackout conspiracy, it seems.

It was 1/2 a century ago. Will Israel get a time out?

[NoahFence]

Quote:

Initially a few hundred hands-on tops.

Initially? How about in the last 10 years?

Nothing, not a SINGLE : thing you people have spewed is accurate! Nothing!

LOL!!

Failure!

[paloalto]

Originally Posted by Scott Sommers

It's posts like this that I enjoy. In 2011, thermite and molten steel sound so silly, I'm sure that even the heroes of 9/11 Truth are coming to understand that only mental rejects and the extreme right-wing are still listening to them. Discussion about what 9/11 means for national security, on the other hand, still seem relevant.

paloalto, I am not very well-informed about the how intelligence networks work. It does seem to me that claiming intention for these acts is stretching it pretty far. Even networks in companies and large universities end up involved in suicidal struggles over resources that seem bizarre unless you're involved in them, in which case they make perfect sense. For example, the promotion of an innocent person into a job that they can not possibly do because their incompetence will allow others to retain control over the resources that person was supposed to be controlling - but can't because they're incompetent.

In as much as what you say is accurate, I think the real question is whether those involved should have known what the outcome would be. Is there any other way to interpret their motives from their point of view?

That is a very good question.

First the CIA and even FBI HQ knew about this huge al Qaeda attack since April 2001, and knew it would kill thousands of Americans. This information had been given to Rice, Hadley and Clarke on July 10, 2001.

Second, Blee, Black and Tenet had received email from Tom Wilshire on July 23, 2001, the CIA manager they had inserted into the FBI HQ in mid-May 2001, to spy on the FBI Cole bombing investigators, that said Midhar will be found at the next big al Qaeda terrorist attack.

Third, when Margret Gillespie, a FBI IOS agent working at the CIA Bin Laden unit found out that both Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US, she had the Bin Laden unit issue an alert to the State Department, and the FBI, no one knows where in the FBI this alert went, but it did not get to the FBI Agent Steve Bongardt and his team. This alert would have gone to Richard Blee, Chief of this unit, the very person who had arranged for Wilshire to go to the FBI HQ, his boss Cofer Black, and his boss George Tenet.

So by August 22-23, 2001, Blee, Black and Tenet knew Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to carry out this horrific al Qaeda attack, knew in fact that these terrorists had actually taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing, the very information that the CIA did not want to get to the FBI Cole bombing investigators, and even knew that they had refused to give permission to Wilshire to give this information to the FBI investigators on the Cole bombing, on July 13, 2001 and again on July 23, 2001 in response to direct requests from Wilshire to turn this information over to the FBI investigators.

Since they were directly but secretly controlling Wilshire, and since Wilshire was directing and allowing FBI Agent Dina Corsi and her boss Rod Middleton, to criminally shut down FBI Agent Steve Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, the only conclusion I could come to was they knew their direct actions would allow the al Qaeda terrorists to carry out the attack they all knew as just about to take place inside of the US.

I don't know what other conclusion you can come to, pretending this was incompetence is moronic. Every action taken by Blee, Black, Tenet, Corsi Middleton and Wilshire was in fact a serious and major Federal felony, the act of withholding information from, delaying, misleading, or obstructing a Federal criminal investigation, or any person that is part of this criminal investigation.

So they clearly knew they were committing major and serious crimes and went ahead and sabotaged Bongardt's investigation anyway.

In the ten years since 9/11 neither the CIA nor the FBI HQ has ever explained why they withheld critical information from Bongardt and his team or shut down Bongardt’s investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, further evidence that their actions had been nefarious all along.

Again I don't know how you can make this any clearer.

[NoahFence]

so paloalto - you're "LIHOP"?

[Miragememories]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

"My point was that the USS Liberty crew/whistle blowers were ordered at the time to keep their mouths shut or suffer severe consequences. The media and the US Government, military and Congress white washed the attempted slaughter of American servicemen by Israel. Is that freaking clear?"

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

"And yet the incident became very well-known."

Oh really!

Please cite some numbers Dave because I'm sure the public knowledge of what happened with the USS Liberty is about on a par with the published photographs of Monica Lewinski giving Clinton his infamous blowjob.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

"The truthers are whistle blowers. We saw/witnessed the destruction of the three WTC buildings."

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

"The traditional definition of whistle blowers requires that they know more, not less, about a subject than the general public. "

Quite true Dave. Your point?

MM

[NoahFence]

Quote:

Oh really!

Please cite some numbers Dave because I'm sure the public knowledge of what happened with the USS Liberty is about on a par with the published photographs of Monica Lewinski giving Clinton his infamous blowjob.

I'm "the public" and I sure didn't need this forum to learn about the Liberty. Anybody with a token knowledge of US events should know about this. There are no public photos of Lewinski doing the deed, so you're wrong there.

Quote:

Quite true Dave. Your point?

The point is 9/11 truthers don't know anything. And that's not an exaggeration. They literally don't know anything.

There can be no 9/11 whistleblowers, as there are no real questions.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore

So you believe the crew of the USS Liberty were lying about the USS flag flying and that there were many Israeli fly overs beginning 6A.M. and the intercepted messages? Eye witnesses can be ignored as whistle blowers?

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?