Evidence that substantiates ANYTHING that happened in the Bible. - Page 4

Niggle · 28th October 2011, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

Paul's letter to the Ramones.

Nommed for pith!

Piggy · 28th October 2011, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Brainache

Yes. I know that. But the point would be that the very early Church in Jerusalem weren't what we would call "Christian" anyway. James and his followers were strictly Jewish, as far as I can tell. Paul was the only one talking about a divine Jesus until the Gospel of John, and Paul was preaching his divine Jesus to the Gentiles. James was emphasising the teachings of Jesus, of salvation through "The Way of The Lord" and preaching to the Jews. Am I wrong?

In one very important point, yes, you are wrong.

All of the early variations that we know of were indeed Christian, in that they believed Jesus to be the prophecied "annointed one", which is to say the messiah or christ.

That includes Jewish Christians, Ebionite Christians, gnostic Christians, and Paul's churches.

It wasn't just the proto-orthodox who were Christian.

One does not have to believe that Jesus was in any way divine in order to believe that he was a christ, or even The Christ.

Brainache · 28th October 2011, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

In one very important point, yes, you are wrong.

All of the early variations that we know of were indeed Christian, in that they believed Jesus to be the prophecied "annointed one", which is to say the messiah or christ.

That includes Jewish Christians, Ebionite Christians, gnostic Christians, and Paul's churches.

It wasn't just the proto-orthodox who were Christian.

One does not have to believe that Jesus was in any way divine in order to believe that he was a christ, or even The Christ.

How many of these early variations are dated to before the destruction of the second Temple?

Piggy · 28th October 2011, 06:18 PM

Ok, to get back to the OP....

Our first external substantiation of anything in the Biblical literature comes from the Menerptah stele, a stone slab commemorating the military victories of the Egyptian Pharaoh Menerptah (son of Rameses the Great) who ruled in the 13th century BCE.

Like the Hebrew epic fragment excerpted in Exodus (cited upthread) this deals with the conflicts between the tribes of Israel (among others) and the Egyptians in Canaan.

It's much shorter than the Biblical excerpt, however: “Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed.”

What's significant about it is that it confirms (a) that Egypt and Israel did indeed engage in military conflict, (b) Israel was worth mentioning, which means they weren't just some ragged band of goatherds at this time, circa 1209 BCE, the era of the judges, (c) they were nevertheless much less significant than the Egyptians, given the short mention they are afforded compared to the extensive commemoration the Hebrews give to a single victory over Pharaoh, and (d) they were a confederation at that time -- the language indicates a group of nomadic tribes rather than a city-state such as the others mentioned in the passage.

So the Biblical account of the early Israelites as tribes at war with the various landed nations is supported here.

Piggy · 28th October 2011, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Brainache

How many of these early variations are dated to before the destruction of the second Temple?

Paul's churches, certainly, and James's Jewish church in Jerusalem, and other Jewish groups to which Simon the Rock was a missionary, as well as certain other "Judaizers", and Christian groups in Egypt with a slant toward "wisdom".

Ebionites are more difficult to date. Their christology is the most primitive of all known christologies, so they may well have been quite early, and their claims tracing the tradition back to James might actually be accurate.

Piggy · 28th October 2011, 08:53 PM

Ok, so this brings us to another epic poem, Judges 5, the Song of Deborah, which celebrates the victories of the tribal confederation. This is widely considered to be the second most ancient material found in the Bible (although some argue that it may actually be the oldest) and it is not purely mythological, although it is certainly told from the point of view of a people with a mythological worldview.

Again, this is too long for me to type from my New Oxford Annotated, but you can read a somewhat less reliable translation here.

Like all ancient victory songs, it is exaggeratedly boastful, and like all ancient Hebrew writings it is overtly religious, but that said, it does provide us some window into the historical past.

Specifically, it agrees with the Egyptian reference to the early Hebrews as a confederation of tribes at war with the competing powers in Canaan. The subsequent establishment of an Israelite nation in Palestine with territories divided along tribal lines, corroborated by archaeology, is objective confirmation of the gist of the song -- that a prolonged multi-front war was fought over possession of the land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, and that the Israelite confederacy was a player in that cross-generational conflict.

An interesting sidenote -- I wish I still had my specific references, but I've lost them over the years -- is that primitive nomadic semitic peoples in Yemen still follow the ancient division of literary labor we find in the Song of Deborah and the Song of Miriam: The men memorize and study the written scripture, while the women sing the news of the day, and praise and criticize the current leadership.

It's a pattern we'll see repeated in the ancient Hebrew literature as we go forward.

VanillaCone · 29th October 2011, 02:44 PM

In response to the OP, there's a pretty good episode of NOVA on the topic of comparing archaeological evidence with purported historical facts written in the Old Testament. The focus was not on confirming or refuting claims of supernatural events but rather to determine if, when and where some of the major characters in the Bible actually lived. For instance there's some archaeological evidence that a real King David existed in the correct place and time, but there also is evidence that the Israelites did not invade Canaan and were in fact Canaanites themselves. The show's available on the pbs.org website. It's called "The Bible's Buried Secrets."

ETA: When I say "available," I mean available for free viewing. (It is PBS, after all.)

Gawdzilla · 29th October 2011, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by VanillaCone

In response to the OP, there's a pretty good episode of NOVA on the topic of comparing archaeological evidence with purported historical facts written in the Old Testament. The focus was not on confiring or refuting claims of supernatural events but rather to determine if, when and where some of the major characters in the Bible actually lived. For instance there's some archaeological evidence that a real King David existed in the correct place and time, but there also is evidence that the Israelites did not invade Canaan and were in fact Canaanites themselves. The show's available on the pbs.org website. It's called "The Bible's Buried Secrets."

ETA: When I say "available," I mean available for free viewing. (It is PBS, after all.)

http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565

VanillaCone · 29th October 2011, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565

Aha - why didn't I think of that?

Gawdzilla · 30th October 2011, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by VanillaCone

Aha - why didn't I think of that?

Meh, I just happened to be there already, watching "Radioactive Wolves."

MG1962 · 30th October 2011, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by VanillaCone

In response to the OP, there's a pretty good episode of NOVA on the topic of comparing archaeological evidence with purported historical facts written in the Old Testament. The focus was not on confirming or refuting claims of supernatural events but rather to determine if, when and where some of the major characters in the Bible actually lived.

Sometimes such exercises can turn up some very good science. A ways back a group of researchers were looking at the crossing of the Red sea. They considered the body of water may have been misidentified so went in search of candidate lakes and marshes.

In doing so they found a series of aerial photos taken during WW2 that showed the remains of a complex marsh area that has since been covered up by sand and such.

While they eventually ended up finding nothing to validate their theory, good stable water sources always throw up the opportunity to discover unknown human settlements and possibly whole cultures lost to time

Piggy · 30th October 2011, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by VanillaCone

there also is evidence that the Israelites did not invade Canaan and were in fact Canaanites themselves.

The Egyptians certainly lumped them all in together.

Having descended from nomads, and being as obsessed as they were with identifying their culture against all of the cultures around them by not just emphasizing but actually codifying the differences and punishing violators, it's not surprising that their origin myths identify them as outsiders... but, of course, outsiders who simultaneously deserve to be there.

VanillaCone · 30th October 2011, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Meh, I just happened to be there already, watching "Radioactive Wolves."

I had no idea wolves were radioactive. Gonna have to watch that one. Public television rules.

Gawdzilla · 30th October 2011, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by VanillaCone

I had no idea wolves were radioactive. Gonna have to watch that one. Public television rules.

Check out "The Wolf That Changed America" while you're at it.

Piggy · 1st November 2011, 06:26 PM

I think the next thing we find is archaeological evidence for the destruction of Bethel, Debir, and Lachish at the end of the Late Bronze (13th c. BCE).

Which isn't that strong, but it's consistent.

Leumas · 3rd November 2011, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

I think the next thing we find is archaeological evidence for the destruction of Bethel, Debir, and Lachish at the end of the Late Bronze (13th c. BCE).

Which isn't that strong, but it's consistent.

So if Argentina claimed that they toppled Saddam and 3000 years from now we found that in fact Iraq was destroyed then that proves that they were right? Even despite the fact that there are written records found that show that the USA did it?

In one of the stories of Sherlock Holmes, he worked for Queen Victoria to prevent some German Spy ring.

It is a fact that there were German Spies in England in the Victorian era that were discovered and apprehended.

So the Sherlock Holmes book got it right on

Victoria existed
England existed
Germany Existed
German Spies Existed
They were apprehended

Conclusion..... Sherlock Holmes was real and the story was HISTORY.

Piggy · 3rd November 2011, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

So if Argentina claimed that they toppled Saddam and 3000 years from now we found that in fact Iraq was destroyed then that proves that they were right? Even despite the fact that there are written records found that show that the USA did it?

Of course not, don't be silly.

What we're looking for here is evidence to substantiate (not prove) those parts of the Bible that may be historical.

What I've been looking at for the last few posts is the conquest of Canaan. And there is some external substantiation, including the later establishment of Israel and Judah, and the destruction of certain cities at the end of the Late Bronze which as I said in the post "isn't that strong, but it's consistent" with one of the versions of the conquest as recorded in Joshua and Judges.

The other version we know to be false because, for example, of its improper description of the supposed destruction of Tyre.

If we start tossing out every piece of potential evidence because it does not, by itself, "prove" the case, then we'll be left with no evidence at all.

Leumas · 3rd November 2011, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

If we start tossing out every piece of potential evidence because it does not, by itself, "prove" the case, then we'll be left with no evidence at all.

The problem is in trying to find evidence as if it REQUIRES one.....Sherlock Holmes does not need any evidence.....nor does Moses.

Just because there is "evidence" does not mean anything.

Even if we find that the bible was correct on ALL the city names and ALL of them were destroyed exactly as described and even if ALL the names of the Kings mentioned are REAL.......it still does not negate the fact that the Bible is a FABLE concocted by humans to PROPAGANDIZE, JUSTIFY, SANCTIFY and FABRICATE.

As I mentioned above....if you take a Sherlock Holmes story you will find that probably 85% of it is FACTUAL.....so if we find that the Bible is 85% factual....does it make it VALID History? or does it remain a HUGE PLAGIARIZED LIE?

One may argue...aha....but then we can learn from it SOME history....

Well....no....because in fact we learnt about the facts before we could say that the Bible’s version of them was factual.

So then someone might say....aha...but then we can use it to interpolate some other facts we did not know....

Well...DEFINITELY NOT.... since you cannot use Sherlock Holmes to interpolate from it any facts that you can be sure are not FABRICATED to make the story plot more interesting or flow better or better serve the purposes of the writer.

So this whole pursuit of comparing the bible to facts we glean from other sources is in vain. All it does is give the feeble minded an "aha" casuistic moment.

But that is in fact the whole impetuous behind the ridiculous Biblical Archaeology field of "study"

Brainache · 3rd November 2011, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

The problem is in trying to find evidence as if it REQUIRES one.....Sherlock Holmes does not need any evidence.....nor does Moses.

Just because there is "evidence" does not mean anything.

...

I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise.

The point, as I see it, is that the bible is a very old book and some of the things it describes happened, some of them didn't. This thread is only looking for things that did happen and which were recorded in one way or another by the bible authors.

We know that Moses didn't lead thousands of Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, but there does seem to be archeological evidence that there were Hebrews living under Egyptian authority in Canaan. There is therefore the possibility that battles between Hebrews and Egyptians happened, not exactly as we are led to believe by the bible, but real battles nevertheless.

Nobody is claiming this as evidence that JHWH is real.

Piggy · 3rd November 2011, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

The problem is in trying to find evidence as if it REQUIRES one.....Sherlock Holmes does not need any evidence.....nor does Moses.

Who said anything about evidence for Moses?

Piggy · 3rd November 2011, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

Even if we find that the bible was correct on ALL the city names and ALL of them were destroyed exactly as described and even if ALL the names of the Kings mentioned are REAL.......it still does not negate the fact that the Bible is a FABLE concocted by humans to PROPAGANDIZE, JUSTIFY, SANCTIFY and FABRICATE.

No need to shout, I'm not blind.

Even if that were true -- fable is a pretty weak genre in the Bible, actually -- it's still simply off-topic if the issue is "what do we have any substantiation for?"

Piggy · 3rd November 2011, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

So then someone might say....aha...but then we can use it to interpolate some other facts we did not know....

Well...DEFINITELY NOT.... since you cannot use Sherlock Holmes to interpolate from it any facts that you can be sure are not FABRICATED to make the story plot more interesting or flow better or better serve the purposes of the writer.

Well sure you can use Sherlock Holmes to improve your understanding of history.

Sherlock Holmes books are just artifacts, like shoes or pottery or boats or garbage heaps, whatever you got.

And like all artifacts, they have something to contribute to our knowledge of the past.

Where were these printed? Who printed them? Why? What were they printed on? Who read them? To what extent are the descriptions of the times accurate, and if they're highly accurate, can they fill in any holes in our current understanding of the place with possible answers, especially any that we can look for other types of evidence for?

The Bible has a whole bunch of genres included in it, from religious visions (which do help us learn things about the history of the real world) to different types of law, folk tales, love poetry, building specs, genealogies, epic poetry, origin myths, and on and on.

Some of it is pasted together from much older material, so it has redactors instead of authors. Some of it is forged for political purposes (e.g. Deuteronomy). Some of it has a single author.

And of course, it's all written from these folks' ancient, highly religious, distinctly Jewish (and later Christian) point of view. A point of view which, btw, also tells us something about the real world.

So if you look at the layers of, say, commandment myths (there are several, spanning the nomadic to the priestly period), the war legends, the development of the law, sure, you learn something. You can learn a lot, in fact.

Triangulate it with other ways of investigating the Ancient Near East and its peoples, and you can learn a great deal.

For people 2,000 years from now, copies of Sherlock Holmes might be quite interesting and informative. You never know.

Piggy · 3rd November 2011, 07:04 PM

Oh, by the way, the exile in Babylon is supported by research into Mesopotamian language, art, and culture, compared with Hebrew language, art, and culture. In fact, the loanwords, new ideas, and iconography can help us date Biblical material.

In fact, that's one of the reasons we know Deuteronomy is a forgery.

Piggy · 3rd November 2011, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Leumas

So this whole pursuit of comparing the bible to facts we glean from other sources is in vain. All it does is give the feeble minded an "aha" casuistic moment.

But that is in fact the whole impetuous behind the ridiculous Biblical Archaeology field of "study"

Well, now you're insulting some very bright and hard-working people.

Sure, there are the cranks who go around trying to find Noah's Ark or the bones of the Nephilim or naturalistic explanations for miracles. But every field has cranks.

On the other hand, there are people who devote years of their lives to piecing together old manuscripts, comparing the formation of letters, studying writing materials, digging things up from the desert or traveling to tiny remote churches, just so we get a better picture of the people who did the writing.

In order to evaluating the writing -- all aspects of it, right down to what the heck it is, not just "what's historically accurate and what's a myth?" -- the textual critics have to talk with the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and so forth.

The genuine field of study is done just like any other.

Robrob · 3rd November 2011, 09:21 PM

I'm not sure why it matters if the Bible contains verifiable historical events or not? It could be 100% historically accurate and still be full of mythological magical miracles. Or, it could be 100% non-historical and be full of mythological magical miracles.

Either way, it's full of mythological magical miracles.

You either believe in magic or you don't.

Brainache · 3rd November 2011, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Robrob

I'm not sure why it matters if the Bible contains verifiable historical events or not? It could be 100% historically accurate and still be full of mythological magical miracles. Or, it could be 100% non-historical and be full of mythological magical miracles.

Either way, it's full of mythological magical miracles.

You either believe in magic or you don't.

(my bold)
So is Homer, and The Mahabarata and the Icelandic Sagas etc etc etc ... people don't study these things to worship the old gods (some do I suppose, but it's not compulsory), but there is still, as Piggy pointed out, a lot to learn by studying these things.

Piggy · 4th November 2011, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Robrob

I'm not sure why it matters if the Bible contains verifiable historical events or not? It could be 100% historically accurate and still be full of mythological magical miracles. Or, it could be 100% non-historical and be full of mythological magical miracles.

Either way, it's full of mythological magical miracles.

You either believe in magic or you don't.

As Brainache points out, believing in magic has nothing to do with the legitimate study of any ancient text.

The historical study of literary artifacts helps us study ancient peoples and their times... which often helps us to better understand ourselves and our times.

ETA: Understanding the various genres is critical to that study, and confirming points of historical accuracy and inaccuracy is important to the larger field of inquiry of which textual study is a part.

ETA2: Even the errors teach us something, btw. Researchers don't simply discard and ignore them.

Leumas · 4th November 2011, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Piggy

Well sure you can use Sherlock Holmes to improve your understanding of history.

Sherlock Holmes books are just artifacts, like shoes or pottery or boats or garbage heaps, whatever you got.

And like all artifacts, they have something to contribute to our knowledge of the past.

Where were these printed? Who printed them? Why? What were they printed on? Who read them? To what extent are the descriptions of the times accurate, and if they're highly accurate, can they fill in any holes in our current understanding of the place with possible answers, especially any that we can look for other types of evidence for?

The Bible has a whole bunch of genres included in it, from religious visions (which do help us learn things about the history of the real world) to different types of law, folk tales, love poetry, building specs, genealogies, epic poetry, origin myths, and on and on.

Some of it is pasted together from much older material, so it has redactors instead of authors. Some of it is forged for political purposes (e.g. Deuteronomy). Some of it has a single author.

And of course, it's all written from these folks' ancient, highly religious, distinctly Jewish (and later Christian) point of view. A point of view which, btw, also tells us something about the real world.

So if you look at the layers of, say, commandment myths (there are several, spanning the nomadic to the priestly period), the war legends, the development of the law, sure, you learn something. You can learn a lot, in fact.

Triangulate it with other ways of investigating the Ancient Near East and its peoples, and you can learn a great deal.

For people 2,000 years from now, copies of Sherlock Holmes might be quite interesting and informative. You never know.

Ok..... I stand corrected.... I agree with you....as long as it is studied from an anthropological point of view and as an artifact...then OK.

My problem though is that due to the nature of this artifact it seems people are willing to accept any GLIMER of truth in it as PROOF that it was a Historical reality.

For instance take the Iliad. Schliemann used it and gleaned where he thought Troy was. He dug and found something. Of course it was not Troy and in fact it was many "Troys" on top of each other.

He found a few trinkets but then went ahead and planted more jewelry and claimed that he excavated them to make his claim a lot more spectacular and convincing.

This kind of shenanigans are exactly was being done by some Biblical "Archaeologists" since 1850.

Now ask any fundamentalist about this and they would say that all it proves is that the Iliad was a fable based on some mundane facts.

But when they hear of some city name being verified as a real city they start jumping up and down that this proves the Bible was the word of God.

Therein lies the problem. In addition there is a CADRE of people with major funding behind them trying to PROVE the Bible using Archaeology.

It is like someone going to London trying to PROVE that Sherlock Holmes existed and using his Chronicles as a guide to find proofs for its veracity.

Originally Posted by Piggy

Oh, by the way, the exile in Babylon is supported by research into Mesopotamian language, art, and culture, compared with Hebrew language, art, and culture. In fact, the loanwords, new ideas, and iconography can help us date Biblical material.

In fact, that's one of the reasons we know Deuteronomy is a forgery.

OK.... I agree.

"The 'scandal of philosophy' is not that a proof for the existence of the world has yet to be given, but that such proofs are expected and attempted again and again." – Martin Heidegge

Originally Posted by Piggy

Well, now you're insulting some very bright and hard-working people.

Sure, there are the cranks who go around trying to find Noah's Ark or the bones of the Nephilim or naturalistic explanations for miracles. But every field has cranks.

On the other hand, there are people who devote years of their lives to piecing together old manuscripts, comparing the formation of letters, studying writing materials, digging things up from the desert or traveling to tiny remote churches, just so we get a better picture of the people who did the writing.

In order to evaluating the writing -- all aspects of it, right down to what the heck it is, not just "what's historically accurate and what's a myth?" -- the textual critics have to talk with the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and so forth.

The genuine field of study is done just like any other.

Any Archeologists who do real archaeology but just happens to be in Israel.... are not Biblical Archaeologists...they are Ligitimit Archaeologists.

Bilbical Archaeologists are the kinds of Hershel Shanks who bend over backwards to accept even forgeries and they want to interpret anything in terms of the Bible.

Like the comic I posted above....they read the Bible and then interpret anything they find in terms of the Bible.....just like the video posted a few posts ago by Gawdzilla....the Gates are Solomon's gates....despite the fact that they are the wrong time.

Originally Posted by Brainache

(my bold)
So is Homer, and The Mahabarata and the Icelandic Sagas etc etc etc ... people don't study these things to worship the old gods (some do I suppose, but it's not compulsory), but there is still, as Piggy pointed out, a lot to learn by studying these things.

I agree.....I was wrong.....but so long as it is made very clear that those facts that HAPPEN to coincide with the Bible are not in any way proof that the Bible is a history anymore than Sherlock Holmes was history.

edge · 4th November 2011, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

Well, now you're insulting some very bright and hard-working people.

Sure, there are the cranks who go around trying to find Noah's Ark or the bones of the Nephilim or naturalistic explanations for miracles. But every field has cranks.

On the other hand, there are people who devote years of their lives to piecing together old manuscripts, comparing the formation of letters, studying writing materials, digging things up from the desert or traveling to tiny remote churches, just so we get a better picture of the people who did the writing.

In order to evaluating the writing -- all aspects of it, right down to what the heck it is, not just "what's historically accurate and what's a myth?" -- the textual critics have to talk with the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and so forth.

The genuine field of study is done just like any other.

Piggy look at this have you heard of this being there?
I know that one of these or both, you might look at and say...Crank.

After leaving Egypt and crossing the Red Sea, the Israelites arrived at the foot of the holy mountain and gathered there in anticipation of the words of God.

Saudi Arabia

This is from a private personal investigation/vacation.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

From Ron Wyatt I Know he is one of your favorites.
Look at 18:42

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm

Where they claim Sinai is, on the Sinai Peninsula there isn’t any archeological evidence to prove it is the place where Moses received the Ten Commandments. If it was supposed to be the
Reed Sea wouldn’t you think they would have been clear on that?

Hokulele · 4th November 2011, 03:59 PM

Ron Wyatt was a fruitcake.

Leumas · 4th November 2011, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by edge

Piggy look at this have you heard of this being there?
I know that one of these or both, you might look at and say...Crank.

After leaving Egypt and crossing the Red Sea, the Israelites arrived at the foot of the holy mountain and gathered there in anticipation of the words of God.

Saudi Arabia

This is from a private personal investigation/vacation.

From Ron Wyatt I Know he is one of your favorites.
Look at 18:42

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm

Where they claim Sinai is, on the Sinai Peninsula there isn’t any archeological evidence to prove it is the place where Moses received the Ten Commandments. If it was supposed to be the
Reed Sea wouldn’t you think they would have been clear on that?

Good Edge.... Good Edge.....let's keep this up..... if this idea takes hold maybe we can "convince" the United Nations to give Saudi Arabia to Israel (or at least part of it).....now there is a bit of land that is worth all the hassle of fighting over it.....not because of the Honey and Milk.....there ain't much of that.....but there are oodles of BLACK GOLD.....now that darned liquid is worth fighting over....no?

So can we start digging up more "PROOF" so as to LEGITIMIZE taking over the place as Eretz Israel Part II.

That's a piece of Land I can wrap my head around the idea that YHWH would promise to Israel.....at least it is worth all the massacring and genocide aided and abetted by him.

I read this book that PROVES that it is all correct and facts.....just read the book and you will see^*:

The Alexandria Link

^*But seriously the book is a fun fiction based on the above CT just as much as The Davinci Code was.

I Ratant · 4th November 2011, 04:18 PM

The more direct route to and from Egypt and the Holy Land follows the shore of the Mediterranean Sea... Joseph traveled that route after being sold.
Most commerce traveled that route, as did military expeditions.
Why wander for 40 years in a desert when the shortest route might be only 2 weeks of foot travel?
This of course presumes there actually was an Exodus and all the gim-crackery that goes along with it.

edge · 4th November 2011, 09:14 PM

.

Originally Posted by Leumas

Good Edge.... Good Edge.....let's keep this up..... if this idea takes hold maybe we can "convince" the United Nations to give Saudi Arabia to Israel (or at least part of it).....now there is a bit of land that is worth all the hassle of fighting over it.....not because of the Honey and Milk.....there ain't much of that.....but there are oodles of BLACK GOLD.....now that darned liquid is worth fighting over....no?

So can we start digging up more "PROOF" so as to LEGITIMIZE taking over the place as Eretz Israel Part II.

That's a piece of Land I can wrap my head around the idea that YHWH would promise to Israel.....at least it is worth all the massacring and genocide aided and abetted by him.

I read this book that PROVES that it is all correct and facts.....just read the book and you will see^*:

The Alexandria Link

^*But seriously the book is a fun fiction based on the above CT just as much as The Davinci Code was.

All I know is that it would be interesting to know for sure, but then, you are insinuating something that never entered my mind?
What ever I’m waiting on Peggy’s input

Hokulele said, " Ron Wyatt was a fruitcake".
Maybe so?
What if he's not in this case, after all this could be disproved in a matter of days with the right team that is honest.
They won't let outsiders look and examine the site?
I mean really what’s the big deal?
People are funny.

edge · 5th November 2011, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

The more direct route to and from Egypt and the Holy Land follows the shore of the Mediterranean Sea... Joseph traveled that route after being sold.
Most commerce traveled that route, as did military expeditions.
Why wander for 40 years in a desert when the shortest route might be only 2 weeks of foot travel?
This of course presumes there actually was an Exodus and all the gim-crackery that goes along with it.

I got a feeling that wander isn't the correct view.
If you goggle and use maps it is now as then livable and the area can grow crops as they are even today in that area.
You just need water and fertilizer.
I would think a better word would have been explored.
I had a typo above I meant Piggy not Peggy.

Gawdzilla · 5th November 2011, 06:32 AM

"Is there any evidence from other reliable/believable sources that validates the concept of a deity as put forward in the Holy Bible?"

No.

I Ratant · 5th November 2011, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by edge

I got a feeling that wander isn't the correct view.
If you goggle and use maps it is now as then livable and the area can grow crops as they are even today in that area.
You just need water and fertilizer.
I would think a better word would have been explored.
I had a typo above I meant Piggy not Peggy.

.
Quite true.
It is said the Hebrews remained in one location in Sinai for 38 years or so.
This extensive community of 1,000,000 people would leave, among other things, a cemetery with 1,000,000 people in it, given the life expectancies of the times.
Where is it?

MG1962 · 5th November 2011, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Quite true.
It is said the Hebrews remained in one location in Sinai for 38 years or so.
This extensive community of 1,000,000 people would leave, among other things, a cemetery with 1,000,000 people in it, given the life expectancies of the times.
Where is it?

Depending on the funerary rites of the times, lack of a cemetery is far from conclusive, however the total lack of any midden in the area pretty much disproves any even temporary settlements.

Resume · 5th November 2011, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by edge

I got a feeling that wander isn't the correct view.
If you goggle and use maps it is now as then livable and the area can grow crops as they are even today in that area.
You just need water and fertilizer.
I would think a better word would have been explored.
I had a typo above I meant Piggy not Peggy.

I would like to hear from Peggy on this issue.

edge · 6th November 2011, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by Resume

I would like to hear from Peggy on this issue.

I think you need a certian phone service to get through to Peggy, she's in Russia somewhere. LOL

edge · 6th November 2011, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by MG1962

Depending on the funerary rites of the times, lack of a cemetery is far from conclusive, however the total lack of any midden in the area pretty much disproves any even temporary settlements.

Exactly and this is what those people and their web sites/links are trying to tell us also.

28th October 2011, 03:37 PM	#121
Niggle Basement Cat's Evil Twin Skippy Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 602	Originally Posted by Piggy Paul's letter to the Ramones. Nommed for pith!
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28th October 2011, 05:36 PM	#122
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Brainache Yes. I know that. But the point would be that the very early Church in Jerusalem weren't what we would call "Christian" anyway. James and his followers were strictly Jewish, as far as I can tell. Paul was the only one talking about a divine Jesus until the Gospel of John, and Paul was preaching his divine Jesus to the Gentiles. James was emphasising the teachings of Jesus, of salvation through "The Way of The Lord" and preaching to the Jews. Am I wrong? In one very important point, yes, you are wrong. All of the early variations that we know of were indeed Christian, in that they believed Jesus to be the prophecied "annointed one", which is to say the messiah or christ. That includes Jewish Christians, Ebionite Christians, gnostic Christians, and Paul's churches. It wasn't just the proto-orthodox who were Christian. One does not have to believe that Jesus was in any way divine in order to believe that he was a christ, or even The Christ.
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28th October 2011, 05:41 PM	#123
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by Piggy In one very important point, yes, you are wrong. All of the early variations that we know of were indeed Christian, in that they believed Jesus to be the prophecied "annointed one", which is to say the messiah or christ. That includes Jewish Christians, Ebionite Christians, gnostic Christians, and Paul's churches. It wasn't just the proto-orthodox who were Christian. One does not have to believe that Jesus was in any way divine in order to believe that he was a christ, or even The Christ. How many of these early variations are dated to before the destruction of the second Temple?
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28th October 2011, 06:18 PM	#124
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Ok, to get back to the OP.... Our first external substantiation of anything in the Biblical literature comes from the Menerptah stele, a stone slab commemorating the military victories of the Egyptian Pharaoh Menerptah (son of Rameses the Great) who ruled in the 13th century BCE. Like the Hebrew epic fragment excerpted in Exodus (cited upthread) this deals with the conflicts between the tribes of Israel (among others) and the Egyptians in Canaan. It's much shorter than the Biblical excerpt, however: “Canaan is captive with all woe. Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized, Yanoam made nonexistent; Israel is wasted, bare of seed.” What's significant about it is that it confirms (a) that Egypt and Israel did indeed engage in military conflict, (b) Israel was worth mentioning, which means they weren't just some ragged band of goatherds at this time, circa 1209 BCE, the era of the judges, (c) they were nevertheless much less significant than the Egyptians, given the short mention they are afforded compared to the extensive commemoration the Hebrews give to a single victory over Pharaoh, and (d) they were a confederation at that time -- the language indicates a group of nomadic tribes rather than a city-state such as the others mentioned in the passage. So the Biblical account of the early Israelites as tribes at war with the various landed nations is supported here.
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28th October 2011, 06:26 PM	#125
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Brainache How many of these early variations are dated to before the destruction of the second Temple? Paul's churches, certainly, and James's Jewish church in Jerusalem, and other Jewish groups to which Simon the Rock was a missionary, as well as certain other "Judaizers", and Christian groups in Egypt with a slant toward "wisdom". Ebionites are more difficult to date. Their christology is the most primitive of all known christologies, so they may well have been quite early, and their claims tracing the tradition back to James might actually be accurate.
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28th October 2011, 08:53 PM	#126
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Ok, so this brings us to another epic poem, Judges 5, the Song of Deborah, which celebrates the victories of the tribal confederation. This is widely considered to be the second most ancient material found in the Bible (although some argue that it may actually be the oldest) and it is not purely mythological, although it is certainly told from the point of view of a people with a mythological worldview. Again, this is too long for me to type from my New Oxford Annotated, but you can read a somewhat less reliable translation here. Like all ancient victory songs, it is exaggeratedly boastful, and like all ancient Hebrew writings it is overtly religious, but that said, it does provide us some window into the historical past. Specifically, it agrees with the Egyptian reference to the early Hebrews as a confederation of tribes at war with the competing powers in Canaan. The subsequent establishment of an Israelite nation in Palestine with territories divided along tribal lines, corroborated by archaeology, is objective confirmation of the gist of the song -- that a prolonged multi-front war was fought over possession of the land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean, and that the Israelite confederacy was a player in that cross-generational conflict. An interesting sidenote -- I wish I still had my specific references, but I've lost them over the years -- is that primitive nomadic semitic peoples in Yemen still follow the ancient division of literary labor we find in the Song of Deborah and the Song of Miriam: The men memorize and study the written scripture, while the women sing the news of the day, and praise and criticize the current leadership. It's a pattern we'll see repeated in the ancient Hebrew literature as we go forward.
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29th October 2011, 02:44 PM	#127
VanillaCone Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Square One Posts: 738	In response to the OP, there's a pretty good episode of NOVA on the topic of comparing archaeological evidence with purported historical facts written in the Old Testament. The focus was not on confirming or refuting claims of supernatural events but rather to determine if, when and where some of the major characters in the Bible actually lived. For instance there's some archaeological evidence that a real King David existed in the correct place and time, but there also is evidence that the Israelites did not invade Canaan and were in fact Canaanites themselves. The show's available on the pbs.org website. It's called "The Bible's Buried Secrets." ETA: When I say "available," I mean available for free viewing. (It is PBS, after all.)
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29th October 2011, 02:50 PM	#128
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,431	Originally Posted by VanillaCone In response to the OP, there's a pretty good episode of NOVA on the topic of comparing archaeological evidence with purported historical facts written in the Old Testament. The focus was not on confiring or refuting claims of supernatural events but rather to determine if, when and where some of the major characters in the Bible actually lived. For instance there's some archaeological evidence that a real King David existed in the correct place and time, but there also is evidence that the Israelites did not invade Canaan and were in fact Canaanites themselves. The show's available on the pbs.org website. It's called "The Bible's Buried Secrets." ETA: When I say "available," I mean available for free viewing. (It is PBS, after all.) http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565
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29th October 2011, 03:49 PM	#129
VanillaCone Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Square One Posts: 738	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla http://video.pbs.org/video/1051895565 Aha - why didn't I think of that?
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30th October 2011, 06:03 AM	#130
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,431	Originally Posted by VanillaCone Aha - why didn't I think of that? Meh, I just happened to be there already, watching "Radioactive Wolves."
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30th October 2011, 06:47 AM	#131
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by VanillaCone In response to the OP, there's a pretty good episode of NOVA on the topic of comparing archaeological evidence with purported historical facts written in the Old Testament. The focus was not on confirming or refuting claims of supernatural events but rather to determine if, when and where some of the major characters in the Bible actually lived. Sometimes such exercises can turn up some very good science. A ways back a group of researchers were looking at the crossing of the Red sea. They considered the body of water may have been misidentified so went in search of candidate lakes and marshes. In doing so they found a series of aerial photos taken during WW2 that showed the remains of a complex marsh area that has since been covered up by sand and such. While they eventually ended up finding nothing to validate their theory, good stable water sources always throw up the opportunity to discover unknown human settlements and possibly whole cultures lost to time

30th October 2011, 06:55 AM	#132
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by VanillaCone there also is evidence that the Israelites did not invade Canaan and were in fact Canaanites themselves. The Egyptians certainly lumped them all in together. Having descended from nomads, and being as obsessed as they were with identifying their culture against all of the cultures around them by not just emphasizing but actually codifying the differences and punishing violators, it's not surprising that their origin myths identify them as outsiders... but, of course, outsiders who simultaneously deserve to be there.
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30th October 2011, 08:17 AM	#133
VanillaCone Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Square One Posts: 738	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Meh, I just happened to be there already, watching "Radioactive Wolves." I had no idea wolves were radioactive. Gonna have to watch that one. Public television rules.
	__________________ I believe I am doing what I think is right. -Closing line of a "Nigerian Prince" e-mail I received.

30th October 2011, 09:23 AM	#134
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,431	Originally Posted by VanillaCone I had no idea wolves were radioactive. Gonna have to watch that one. Public television rules. Check out "The Wolf That Changed America" while you're at it.
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1st November 2011, 06:26 PM	#135
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	I think the next thing we find is archaeological evidence for the destruction of Bethel, Debir, and Lachish at the end of the Late Bronze (13th c. BCE). Which isn't that strong, but it's consistent.
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3rd November 2011, 12:31 PM	#136
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Piggy I think the next thing we find is archaeological evidence for the destruction of Bethel, Debir, and Lachish at the end of the Late Bronze (13th c. BCE). Which isn't that strong, but it's consistent. So if Argentina claimed that they toppled Saddam and 3000 years from now we found that in fact Iraq was destroyed then that proves that they were right? Even despite the fact that there are written records found that show that the USA did it? In one of the stories of Sherlock Holmes, he worked for Queen Victoria to prevent some German Spy ring. It is a fact that there were German Spies in England in the Victorian era that were discovered and apprehended. So the Sherlock Holmes book got it right on Victoria existed England existed Germany Existed German Spies Existed They were apprehended Conclusion..... Sherlock Holmes was real and the story was HISTORY.
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson

3rd November 2011, 03:07 PM	#137
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Leumas So if Argentina claimed that they toppled Saddam and 3000 years from now we found that in fact Iraq was destroyed then that proves that they were right? Even despite the fact that there are written records found that show that the USA did it? Of course not, don't be silly. What we're looking for here is evidence to substantiate (not prove) those parts of the Bible that may be historical. What I've been looking at for the last few posts is the conquest of Canaan. And there is some external substantiation, including the later establishment of Israel and Judah, and the destruction of certain cities at the end of the Late Bronze which as I said in the post "isn't that strong, but it's consistent" with one of the versions of the conquest as recorded in Joshua and Judges. The other version we know to be false because, for example, of its improper description of the supposed destruction of Tyre. If we start tossing out every piece of potential evidence because it does not, by itself, "prove" the case, then we'll be left with no evidence at all.
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3rd November 2011, 03:38 PM	#138
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Piggy If we start tossing out every piece of potential evidence because it does not, by itself, "prove" the case, then we'll be left with no evidence at all. The problem is in trying to find evidence as if it REQUIRES one.....Sherlock Holmes does not need any evidence.....nor does Moses. Just because there is "evidence" does not mean anything. Even if we find that the bible was correct on ALL the city names and ALL of them were destroyed exactly as described and even if ALL the names of the Kings mentioned are REAL.......it still does not negate the fact that the Bible is a FABLE concocted by humans to PROPAGANDIZE, JUSTIFY, SANCTIFY and FABRICATE. As I mentioned above....if you take a Sherlock Holmes story you will find that probably 85% of it is FACTUAL.....so if we find that the Bible is 85% factual....does it make it VALID History? or does it remain a HUGE PLAGIARIZED LIE? One may argue...aha....but then we can learn from it SOME history.... Well....no....because in fact we learnt about the facts before we could say that the Bible’s version of them was factual. So then someone might say....aha...but then we can use it to interpolate some other facts we did not know.... Well...DEFINITELY NOT.... since you cannot use Sherlock Holmes to interpolate from it any facts that you can be sure are not FABRICATED to make the story plot more interesting or flow better or better serve the purposes of the writer. So this whole pursuit of comparing the bible to facts we glean from other sources is in vain. All it does is give the feeble minded an "aha" casuistic moment. But that is in fact the whole impetuous behind the ridiculous Biblical Archaeology field of "study"
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson

3rd November 2011, 04:50 PM	#139
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by Leumas The problem is in trying to find evidence as if it REQUIRES one.....Sherlock Holmes does not need any evidence.....nor does Moses. Just because there is "evidence" does not mean anything. ... I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise. The point, as I see it, is that the bible is a very old book and some of the things it describes happened, some of them didn't. This thread is only looking for things that did happen and which were recorded in one way or another by the bible authors. We know that Moses didn't lead thousands of Hebrew slaves out of Egypt, but there does seem to be archeological evidence that there were Hebrews living under Egyptian authority in Canaan. There is therefore the possibility that battles between Hebrews and Egyptians happened, not exactly as we are led to believe by the bible, but real battles nevertheless. Nobody is claiming this as evidence that JHWH is real.
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3rd November 2011, 06:47 PM	#140
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Leumas The problem is in trying to find evidence as if it REQUIRES one.....Sherlock Holmes does not need any evidence.....nor does Moses. Who said anything about evidence for Moses?
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3rd November 2011, 06:49 PM	#141
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Leumas Even if we find that the bible was correct on ALL the city names and ALL of them were destroyed exactly as described and even if ALL the names of the Kings mentioned are REAL.......it still does not negate the fact that the Bible is a FABLE concocted by humans to PROPAGANDIZE, JUSTIFY, SANCTIFY and FABRICATE. No need to shout, I'm not blind. Even if that were true -- fable is a pretty weak genre in the Bible, actually -- it's still simply off-topic if the issue is "what do we have any substantiation for?"
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3rd November 2011, 07:01 PM	#142
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Leumas So then someone might say....aha...but then we can use it to interpolate some other facts we did not know.... Well...DEFINITELY NOT.... since you cannot use Sherlock Holmes to interpolate from it any facts that you can be sure are not FABRICATED to make the story plot more interesting or flow better or better serve the purposes of the writer. Well sure you can use Sherlock Holmes to improve your understanding of history. Sherlock Holmes books are just artifacts, like shoes or pottery or boats or garbage heaps, whatever you got. And like all artifacts, they have something to contribute to our knowledge of the past. Where were these printed? Who printed them? Why? What were they printed on? Who read them? To what extent are the descriptions of the times accurate, and if they're highly accurate, can they fill in any holes in our current understanding of the place with possible answers, especially any that we can look for other types of evidence for? The Bible has a whole bunch of genres included in it, from religious visions (which do help us learn things about the history of the real world) to different types of law, folk tales, love poetry, building specs, genealogies, epic poetry, origin myths, and on and on. Some of it is pasted together from much older material, so it has redactors instead of authors. Some of it is forged for political purposes (e.g. Deuteronomy). Some of it has a single author. And of course, it's all written from these folks' ancient, highly religious, distinctly Jewish (and later Christian) point of view. A point of view which, btw, also tells us something about the real world. So if you look at the layers of, say, commandment myths (there are several, spanning the nomadic to the priestly period), the war legends, the development of the law, sure, you learn something. You can learn a lot, in fact. Triangulate it with other ways of investigating the Ancient Near East and its peoples, and you can learn a great deal. For people 2,000 years from now, copies of Sherlock Holmes might be quite interesting and informative. You never know.
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3rd November 2011, 07:04 PM	#143
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Oh, by the way, the exile in Babylon is supported by research into Mesopotamian language, art, and culture, compared with Hebrew language, art, and culture. In fact, the loanwords, new ideas, and iconography can help us date Biblical material. In fact, that's one of the reasons we know Deuteronomy is a forgery.
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3rd November 2011, 07:10 PM	#144
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Leumas So this whole pursuit of comparing the bible to facts we glean from other sources is in vain. All it does is give the feeble minded an "aha" casuistic moment. But that is in fact the whole impetuous behind the ridiculous Biblical Archaeology field of "study" Well, now you're insulting some very bright and hard-working people. Sure, there are the cranks who go around trying to find Noah's Ark or the bones of the Nephilim or naturalistic explanations for miracles. But every field has cranks. On the other hand, there are people who devote years of their lives to piecing together old manuscripts, comparing the formation of letters, studying writing materials, digging things up from the desert or traveling to tiny remote churches, just so we get a better picture of the people who did the writing. In order to evaluating the writing -- all aspects of it, right down to what the heck it is, not just "what's historically accurate and what's a myth?" -- the textual critics have to talk with the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and so forth. The genuine field of study is done just like any other.
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3rd November 2011, 09:21 PM	#145
Robrob Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,660	I'm not sure why it matters if the Bible contains verifiable historical events or not? It could be 100% historically accurate and still be full of mythological magical miracles. Or, it could be 100% non-historical and be full of mythological magical miracles. Either way, it's full of mythological magical miracles. You either believe in magic or you don't.
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3rd November 2011, 11:44 PM	#146
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Knob Hill. Posts: 9,086	Originally Posted by Robrob I'm not sure why it matters if the Bible contains verifiable historical events or not? It could be 100% historically accurate and still be full of mythological magical miracles. Or, it could be 100% non-historical and be full of mythological magical miracles. Either way, it's full of mythological magical miracles. You either believe in magic or you don't. (my bold) So is Homer, and The Mahabarata and the Icelandic Sagas etc etc etc ... people don't study these things to worship the old gods (some do I suppose, but it's not compulsory), but there is still, as Piggy pointed out, a lot to learn by studying these things.
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4th November 2011, 07:11 AM	#147
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,297	Originally Posted by Robrob I'm not sure why it matters if the Bible contains verifiable historical events or not? It could be 100% historically accurate and still be full of mythological magical miracles. Or, it could be 100% non-historical and be full of mythological magical miracles. Either way, it's full of mythological magical miracles. You either believe in magic or you don't. As Brainache points out, believing in magic has nothing to do with the legitimate study of any ancient text. The historical study of literary artifacts helps us study ancient peoples and their times... which often helps us to better understand ourselves and our times. ETA: Understanding the various genres is critical to that study, and confirming points of historical accuracy and inaccuracy is important to the larger field of inquiry of which textual study is a part. ETA2: Even the errors teach us something, btw. Researchers don't simply discard and ignore them.
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4th November 2011, 08:44 AM	#148
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by Piggy Well sure you can use Sherlock Holmes to improve your understanding of history. Sherlock Holmes books are just artifacts, like shoes or pottery or boats or garbage heaps, whatever you got. And like all artifacts, they have something to contribute to our knowledge of the past. Where were these printed? Who printed them? Why? What were they printed on? Who read them? To what extent are the descriptions of the times accurate, and if they're highly accurate, can they fill in any holes in our current understanding of the place with possible answers, especially any that we can look for other types of evidence for? The Bible has a whole bunch of genres included in it, from religious visions (which do help us learn things about the history of the real world) to different types of law, folk tales, love poetry, building specs, genealogies, epic poetry, origin myths, and on and on. Some of it is pasted together from much older material, so it has redactors instead of authors. Some of it is forged for political purposes (e.g. Deuteronomy). Some of it has a single author. And of course, it's all written from these folks' ancient, highly religious, distinctly Jewish (and later Christian) point of view. A point of view which, btw, also tells us something about the real world. So if you look at the layers of, say, commandment myths (there are several, spanning the nomadic to the priestly period), the war legends, the development of the law, sure, you learn something. You can learn a lot, in fact. Triangulate it with other ways of investigating the Ancient Near East and its peoples, and you can learn a great deal. For people 2,000 years from now, copies of Sherlock Holmes might be quite interesting and informative. You never know. Ok..... I stand corrected.... I agree with you....as long as it is studied from an anthropological point of view and as an artifact...then OK. My problem though is that due to the nature of this artifact it seems people are willing to accept any GLIMER of truth in it as PROOF that it was a Historical reality. For instance take the Iliad. Schliemann used it and gleaned where he thought Troy was. He dug and found something. Of course it was not Troy and in fact it was many "Troys" on top of each other. He found a few trinkets but then went ahead and planted more jewelry and claimed that he excavated them to make his claim a lot more spectacular and convincing. This kind of shenanigans are exactly was being done by some Biblical "Archaeologists" since 1850. Now ask any fundamentalist about this and they would say that all it proves is that the Iliad was a fable based on some mundane facts. But when they hear of some city name being verified as a real city they start jumping up and down that this proves the Bible was the word of God. Therein lies the problem. In addition there is a CADRE of people with major funding behind them trying to PROVE the Bible using Archaeology. It is like someone going to London trying to PROVE that Sherlock Holmes existed and using his Chronicles as a guide to find proofs for its veracity. Originally Posted by Piggy Oh, by the way, the exile in Babylon is supported by research into Mesopotamian language, art, and culture, compared with Hebrew language, art, and culture. In fact, the loanwords, new ideas, and iconography can help us date Biblical material. In fact, that's one of the reasons we know Deuteronomy is a forgery. OK.... I agree. "The 'scandal of philosophy' is not that a proof for the existence of the world has yet to be given, but that such proofs are expected and attempted again and again." – Martin Heidegge Originally Posted by Piggy Well, now you're insulting some very bright and hard-working people. Sure, there are the cranks who go around trying to find Noah's Ark or the bones of the Nephilim or naturalistic explanations for miracles. But every field has cranks. On the other hand, there are people who devote years of their lives to piecing together old manuscripts, comparing the formation of letters, studying writing materials, digging things up from the desert or traveling to tiny remote churches, just so we get a better picture of the people who did the writing. In order to evaluating the writing -- all aspects of it, right down to what the heck it is, not just "what's historically accurate and what's a myth?" -- the textual critics have to talk with the archaeologists, the anthropologists, and so forth. The genuine field of study is done just like any other. Any Archeologists who do real archaeology but just happens to be in Israel.... are not Biblical Archaeologists...they are Ligitimit Archaeologists. Bilbical Archaeologists are the kinds of Hershel Shanks who bend over backwards to accept even forgeries and they want to interpret anything in terms of the Bible. Like the comic I *posted above....they read the Bible and then interpret anything they find in terms of the Bible.....just like the video* posted *a few posts ago* by Gawdzilla....the Gates are Solomon's gates....despite the fact that they are the wrong time. Originally Posted by Brainache (my bold) So is Homer, and The Mahabarata and the Icelandic Sagas etc etc etc ... people don't study these things to worship the old gods (some do I suppose, but it's not compulsory), but there is still, as Piggy pointed out, a lot to learn by studying these things. I agree.....I was wrong.....but so long as it is made very clear that those facts that HAPPEN to coincide with the Bible are not in any way proof that the Bible is a history anymore than Sherlock Holmes was history.
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson

4th November 2011, 03:59 PM	#150
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,267	Ron Wyatt was a fruitcake.
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4th November 2011, 04:10 PM	#151
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	Originally Posted by edge Piggy look at this have you heard of this being there? I know that one of these or both, you might look at and say...Crank. After leaving Egypt and crossing the Red Sea, the Israelites arrived at the foot of the holy mountain and gathered there in anticipation of the words of God. Saudi Arabia This is from a private personal investigation/vacation. From Ron Wyatt I Know he is one of your favorites. Look at 18:42 http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm Where they claim Sinai is, on the Sinai Peninsula there isn’t any archeological evidence to prove it is the place where Moses received the Ten Commandments. If it was supposed to be the Reed Sea wouldn’t you think they would have been clear on that? Good Edge.... Good Edge.....let's keep this up..... if this idea takes hold maybe we can "convince" the United Nations to give Saudi Arabia to Israel (or at least part of it).....now there is a bit of land that is worth all the hassle of fighting over it.....not because of the Honey and Milk.....there ain't much of that.....but there are oodles of BLACK GOLD.....now that darned liquid is worth fighting over....no? So can we start digging up more "PROOF" so as to LEGITIMIZE taking over the place as Eretz Israel Part II. That's a piece of Land I can wrap my head around the idea that YHWH would promise to Israel.....at least it is worth all the massacring and genocide aided and abetted by him. I read this book that PROVES that it is all correct and facts.....just read the book and you will see^: The Alexandria Link* ^But seriously the book is a fun fiction based on the above CT just as much as The Davinci Code* was.
Leumas Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 2,493	__________________ "I don't know if God exists, but it would be better for his reputation if he didn't." - Jules Renard "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection of his own." - Thomas Jefferson Last edited by Leumas; 4th November 2011 at 04:15 PM.

4th November 2011, 04:18 PM	#152
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	The more direct route to and from Egypt and the Holy Land follows the shore of the Mediterranean Sea... Joseph traveled that route after being sold. Most commerce traveled that route, as did military expeditions. Why wander for 40 years in a desert when the shortest route might be only 2 weeks of foot travel? This of course presumes there actually was an Exodus and all the gim-crackery that goes along with it.

4th November 2011, 09:14 PM	#153
edge Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Where my two best friends are, in here now. Posts: 5,247	. Originally Posted by Leumas Good Edge.... Good Edge.....let's keep this up..... if this idea takes hold maybe we can "convince" the United Nations to give Saudi Arabia to Israel (or at least part of it).....now there is a bit of land that is worth all the hassle of fighting over it.....not because of the Honey and Milk.....there ain't much of that.....but there are oodles of BLACK GOLD.....now that darned liquid is worth fighting over....no? So can we start digging up more "PROOF" so as to LEGITIMIZE taking over the place as Eretz Israel Part II. That's a piece of Land I can wrap my head around the idea that YHWH would promise to Israel.....at least it is worth all the massacring and genocide aided and abetted by him. I read this book that PROVES that it is all correct and facts.....just read the book and you will see^: The Alexandria Link* ^But seriously the book is a fun fiction based on the above CT just as much as The Davinci Code* was. All I know is that it would be interesting to know for sure, but then, you are insinuating something that never entered my mind? What ever I’m waiting on Peggy’s input Hokulele said, " Ron Wyatt was a fruitcake". Maybe so? What if he's not in this case, after all this could be disproved in a matter of days with the right team that is honest. They won't let outsiders look and examine the site? I mean really what’s the big deal? People are funny.
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5th November 2011, 05:28 AM	#154
edge Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Where my two best friends are, in here now. Posts: 5,247	Originally Posted by I Ratant The more direct route to and from Egypt and the Holy Land follows the shore of the Mediterranean Sea... Joseph traveled that route after being sold. Most commerce traveled that route, as did military expeditions. Why wander for 40 years in a desert when the shortest route might be only 2 weeks of foot travel? This of course presumes there actually was an Exodus and all the gim-crackery that goes along with it. I got a feeling that wander isn't the correct view. If you goggle and use maps it is now as then livable and the area can grow crops as they are even today in that area. You just need water and fertilizer. I would think a better word would have been explored. I had a typo above I meant Piggy not Peggy.
	__________________ My two best friends in here! Upper left. Laus Deo

5th November 2011, 06:32 AM	#155
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,431	"Is there any evidence from other reliable/believable sources that validates the concept of a deity as put forward in the Holy Bible?" No.
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5th November 2011, 09:40 AM	#156
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by edge I got a feeling that wander isn't the correct view. If you goggle and use maps it is now as then livable and the area can grow crops as they are even today in that area. You just need water and fertilizer. I would think a better word would have been explored. I had a typo above I meant Piggy not Peggy. . Quite true. It is said the Hebrews remained in one location in Sinai for 38 years or so. This extensive community of 1,000,000 people would leave, among other things, a cemetery with 1,000,000 people in it, given the life expectancies of the times. Where is it?