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Old 6th November 2011, 07:52 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
I think you need a certian phone service to get through to Peggy, she's in Russia somewhere. LOL
For those outside the USA Peggy is a bearded Russian male delivering world class customer service

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZXZA...feature=relmfu
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Old 6th November 2011, 08:19 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
"Is there any evidence from other reliable/believable sources that validates the concept of a deity as put forward in the Holy Bible?"

No.
It depends on what you think reliability is, but there are two other
mainstream religions tied to it and you know this already.
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Old 6th November 2011, 08:22 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
For those outside the USA Peggy is a bearded Russian male delivering world class customer service

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZXZA...feature=relmfu
Yep credit card commercial.
Friggen hilarious LOL...
Thanks for that MG.
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Old 6th November 2011, 08:31 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
It depends on what you think reliability is, but there are two other
mainstream religions tied to it and you know this already.
I know you have a point there, and that it will be very funny when you reveal it.
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Old 6th November 2011, 11:03 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
If it was supposed to be the
Reed Sea wouldn’t you think they would have been clear on that?
It's actually "Reed Sea" in the original.

Obvioulsy, the reception of the Law by Moses is central to the early Bible narratives -- probably the most important feature of the ancient Jewish system of law... if it doesn't somehow go back to Moses, it's not really the law.

But if you look at that section of the text, what you find is the interpolation of multiple traditions into a single narrative. And the earliest traditions are so ancient that if there's any historicity to it, there's no way to know what it is or where it is.

Archaeology does not support an exodus from Egypt, but rather conflicts with Egypt in Canaan, so there's actually no reason to go looking for such sites, and even if you did you'd have no way of knowing what to look for or if you found it.

To give you an idea of the kind of redacted text we're looking at here... one which splices together a variety of previous oral narratives... let's look at one example of what God says to Moses, in particular what God says about building an altar for worship.

Here's a very early tradition from the nomadic days, primitive in its vocabulary and syntax and references, and extremely brief (Exodus 20:23-26):

Quote:
You shall not make gods of silver alongside me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold. You need make for me only an altar of earth and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your offerings of well-being, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you. But if you make for me an altar of stone, do not build it of hewn stones; for if you use a chisel upon it you profane it. You shall not go up by steps to my altar, so that your nakedness may not be exposed on it.
Now here's a much later tradition from the priestly era, which is so long and complicated I can't possibly transcribe it, but you can read it here: Exodus 25-30.

You see, it turns out that God told Moses to do whatever the Hebrews were doing at the time... building altars out of raw rocks right on the ground, or maintaining ornate tabernacles run by priests who led elaborate rituals.

If it's true that Moses was a figure from the nomadic times, before the system of judges, and if it's true that he established the earliest set of codified Hebrew laws -- although even this is simply speculation -- there's no reason for us to look at later myths about him and then try to locate the real-world sites of events in the epic myth.

If Moses did codify the earliest Hebrew law, then doubtlessly there is not a single location where he did that work, and no way to identify the locations where he actually did it.
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Old 6th November 2011, 11:08 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I agree with you....as long as it is studied from an anthropological point of view and as an artifact...then OK.
Yeah, there's a lot of crank stuff out there, but all we can do is counter it w/ the actual research. Glad to know we're on the same page.
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Old 6th November 2011, 08:11 PM   #167
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Piggy says:
Quote:
Archaeology does not support an exodus from Egypt, but rather conflicts with Egypt in Canaan, so there's actually no reason to go looking for such sites, and even if you did you'd have no way of knowing what to look for or if you found it.
I totally disagree with your statement, it's as if you got the answer that you’re satisfied with and you have settled.
I’m not interested in the priestly side either just whether or not there’s evidence of the Exodus.
We know there was a great deal of cultural laws and rites they kept, plus some from their captors and their religion.
And with this:
Quote:
It's actually "Reed Sea" in the original.
You haven’t addressed the evidence that’s been presented by the discoverers either.
Here's others that investigated it and a better video:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=uJumaA0uNzw
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=fiMx8WSh4Es

I believe the translation from the Hebrew first before the Lexicon because as it says Probably from a foreign origin.
There’s that bad influence.

In Hebrew.
http://biblos.com/exodus/15-22.htm


From the Lexicon.
http://biblelexicon.org/exodus/15-22.htm

If you take it from this viewpoint This article was first published in the Spring 2006 issue of Bible and Spade or yours they still could end up at Serabit el-Khadim. From here:
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...g-Part-II.aspx
Picture of that route below.

Keep in mind that a whole population had to go somewhere and from what I seen so far it is plausible…that is the place.

Quote:

In conclusion, at no period in Israelite history is there any evidence that yam sûp ever referred to a body of water other than the Red Sea. All occurrences of the term yam sûp fit adequately within either the geographical and historical or the mythological typology developed in this paper. There is no reason whatever to posit the existence of a second yam supß1 In short, the hypothesis that the Israelites experienced deliverance from their Egyptian pursuers at some historical body of water, whose name was dimly but accurately preserved as the "Reed Sea," should be laid to rest forever. Requiescat in pacel
From here. THE REED SEA: REQUIESCAT IN PACE
BERNARD F. BATTO
The University of Dallas, Irving, TX 75061


http://www.wwuheiser.com/Batto.pdf

There’s no way you could drown and die in the Reed sea according to what is known, why didn’t the Pharos’ army dismount and catch them?
All they had to do is go around?

Look at the logistics.
There's a coastal highway that crossed.

Then you have this: flag, Red sea, weed

Probably of Egyptian origin; a reed, especially the papyrus -- flag, Red (sea), weed. Compare Cuwph.

see HEBREW Cuwph


From this page:
http://concordances.org/hebrew/5488.htm

The name of the sea may signify the seasonal blooms of the red-coloured Trichodesmium erythraeum near the water's surface.Op said it wanted evidence here's more:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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Old 6th November 2011, 11:51 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
It's actually "Reed Sea" in the original.
The words translated as Red Sea are Yam Soof (יַם-סוּף)....

Yam = sea.

Now Soof is translated as Red....but see below

The word consistently translated as Reed elsewhere in the Tanakh is the word Kaneh (קָנֶה).

The word translated in the KJV of the Bible as Marshes is Agameem (אֲגַמִּים)....but it is translated in the JPS Tanakh as Castles

Now the words Yam Soof are actually used very consistently whenever there is reference to the Red Sea.

There are many words for Red in the bible but NONE are Soof...e.g. Adummeem (אֲדֻמִּים).

There is ONE place I found in the Tanakh where there is the word SooF (סוּף) used not in reference to the Red Sea.

In Isaiah 19:6 the word is translated as Rushes in the KJV and Flags in the JPS official Tanakh in English.

Quote:
(KJV) Isaiah 19:6 The canals will stink; he streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and rushes will wither.

(JPS Tanakh)Isaiah 19:6 And the rivers shall become foul; the streams of Egypt shall be minished and dried up; the reeds and flags shall wither.

וְהֶאֶזְנִיחוּ נְהָרוֹת, דָּלְלוּ וְחָרְבוּ יְאֹרֵי מָצוֹר; קָנֶה וָסוּף, קָמֵלוּ


(KJV) Exodus 13:1818 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea.[a] The Israelites went up out of Egypt ready for battle.

(JPS Tanakh)Exodus 13:18 But God led the people about, by the way of the wilderness by the Red Sea; and the children of Israel went up armed out of the land of Egypt.

וַיַּסֵּב אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָעָם דֶּרֶךְ הַמִּדְבָּר, יַם-סוּף; וַחֲמֻשִׁים עָלוּ בְנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל, מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם

So it can be argued that the Red Sea was actually meant to be Sea Of Rushes.

Nevertheless, notice how the JPS Tanakh translates the words as Red Sea (above).

It can be argued of course that the words Yam Soof in fact are just what the Ancient Hebrews called the Red Sea....since the word Red Sea is not an ancient reference to the sea.

Another problem with translating as Sea Of Rushes is that Pharaoh would NOT have drowned in it much less his army....maybe the Chariots may have bogged down....but I am sure the army could have pursued the runaway slaves on foot.

In my opinion the words Yam Soof are just the way the ancient Hebrews referred to the body of water that is now called Red Sea.

Of course the whole thing is a moot point since the whole thing is a MYTH that never occurred.

For the fundamentalist......how do they reconcile:
  • Bad translations in the supposed word of god?
  • The elimination of the miracle of parting the Red Sea where now it becomes just crossing a swamp?


ETA: In modern Hebrew Soof means END (noun)..... so Yam Soof could have meant the End Sea in ancient Hebrew.....ie the end of the land or the Border Sea??? which for Egypt would be the Red Sea??
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Last edited by Leumas; 7th November 2011 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 7th November 2011, 06:14 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
Why wander for 40 years in a desert when the shortest route might be only 2 weeks of foot travel?
Moses lost a contact lens. They were not leaving that desert til he found it.

Last edited by Hellbound; 7th November 2011 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 7th November 2011, 07:13 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
The words translated as Red Sea are Yam Soof (יַם-סוּף)....

Yam = sea.

Now Soof is translated as Red....but see below

The word consistently translated as Reed elsewhere in the Tanakh is the word Kaneh (קָנֶה).

The word translated in the KJV of the Bible as Marshes is Agameem (אֲגַמִּים)....but it is translated in the JPS Tanakh as Castles

Now the words Yam Soof are actually used very consistently whenever there is reference to the Red Sea.

There are many words for Red in the bible but NONE are Soof...e.g. Adummeem (אֲדֻמִּים).

There is ONE place I found in the Tanakh where there is the word SooF (סוּף) used not in reference to the Red Sea.

In Isaiah 19:6 the word is translated as Rushes in the KJV and Flags in the JPS official Tanakh in English.




So it can be argued that the Red Sea was actually meant to be Sea Of Rushes.

Nevertheless, notice how the JPS Tanakh translates the words as Red Sea (above).

It can be argued of course that the words Yam Soof in fact are just what the Ancient Hebrews called the Red Sea....since the word Red Sea is not an ancient reference to the sea.

Another problem with translating as Sea Of Rushes is that Pharaoh would NOT have drowned in it much less his army....maybe the Chariots may have bogged down....but I am sure the army could have pursued the runaway slaves on foot.

In my opinion the words Yam Soof are just the way the ancient Hebrews referred to the body of water that is now called Red Sea.

Of course the whole thing is a moot point since the whole thing is a MYTH that never occurred.

For the fundamentalist......how do they reconcile:
  • Bad translations in the supposed word of god?
  • The elimination of the miracle of parting the Red Sea where now it becomes just crossing a swamp?


ETA: In modern Hebrew Soof means END (noun)..... so Yam Soof could have meant the End Sea in ancient Hebrew.....ie the end of the land or the Border Sea??? which for Egypt would be the Red Sea??
Well I'll be a monkeys uncle... darn good work.
Where they really lost or just hiding out and making more soliders?
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Old 7th November 2011, 12:44 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
I totally disagree with your statement, it's as if you got the answer that you’re satisfied with and you have settled.
I’m not interested in the priestly side either just whether or not there’s evidence of the Exodus.
We know there was a great deal of cultural laws and rites they kept, plus some from their captors and their religion.
If you disagree, then you need to pony up w/ some evidence for the migration itself.

Pointing to similarities won't cut it, because we know that the two cultures co-existed in Canaan.

You also need to explain why the Egyptians, who were fond of bragging about their conquests, never mention this one particular captivity.
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Old 7th November 2011, 12:46 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
The words translated as Red Sea are Yam Soof (יַם-סוּף).... <snip>
Let me check my notes and see if I've got any more detail. I was basing the statement from notes in a class by Ted Lewis. Could very well have overstated the case. Thanks for the info.
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Old 7th November 2011, 12:49 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
There’s no way you could drown and die in the Reed sea according to what is known, why didn’t the Pharos’ army dismount and catch them?
The original epic poem refers to a battle with the Egyptians in which God threw the chariots and riders into the sea. All we know about this battle is that the Hebrews considered themselves victorious.

Later, this event was woven into a larger narrative.

But trying to find evidence of that later narrative is futile.
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Old 7th November 2011, 08:29 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
If you disagree, then you need to pony up w/ some evidence for the migration itself.

Pointing to similarities won't cut it, because we know that the two cultures co-existed in Canaan.

You also need to explain why the Egyptians, who were fond of bragging about their conquests, never mention this one particular captivity.


It might have to do with the way they would erase all likeness of even the pharos they were in disagreement with, so what about a slave society that kind of walked all over them and the power they wielded.
That’s got to be one great big insult and slap in the face.
Striking them from all of their historical records seems might be the worse thing they could have done, one last stab.
That’s just my opinion.
I also would consider the people that are indigenous to Sadia Arabia and what they have to say about their history.
They would have to be questioned about their linage and history at that area.
Why they think that site it is what it is.
I find the evidence quit compelling but nothing short of professionals going in and recording the digs with regular reports will do, to know and learn with absolute proof.
It should be a crime to with hold history like that.
It seems to me that all the pieces fit nicely on the surface.
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Old 8th November 2011, 06:07 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
It seems to me that all the pieces fit nicely on the surface.
Wel, yes, and I can complete any puzzle you give me in a day, if you let me make my own pieces.

The problem isn't "does it fit together", because that's true of any decently-written novel (regardless of it's accuracy or relationship to actual events). The question is what is there evidence for.
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Old 8th November 2011, 11:46 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Wel, yes, and I can complete any puzzle you give me in a day, if you let me make my own pieces.

The problem isn't "does it fit together", because that's true of any decently-written novel (regardless of it's accuracy or relationship to actual events). The question is what is there evidence for.
Seems like what was written about the event, descriptions of several locations, as the OP asked for evidence, but you'll have to decide for yourself.
I would love to go and see it.
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Old 9th November 2011, 07:36 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
Well I'll be a monkeys uncle... darn good work.

So Edge.....do you now believe in Evolution?
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Old 9th November 2011, 08:46 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
It might have to do with the way they would erase all likeness of even the pharos they were in disagreement with, so what about a slave society that kind of walked all over them and the power they wielded.

How do we know they did this? Think about it.....we KNOW they did this?

We even KNOW who they did it to....we even know WHY they did it?

So in other words their efforts were in vain and not quite successful.

If they were able to destroy the evidence FULLY we would have never known about it.

The fact that we know means that there was enough evidence of them doing it and in some cases we even knew who and why and when.

So why is there no evidence at all...not even evidence of attempting to do it.

Now if you are talking about some rag-tag runaway slaves then the Egyptians would have had no need to record anything.

But....if you are talking about almost three million people leaving Egypt when the whole population of Egypt was about 2 million at its apex of prosperity then SOMETHING would have been weird.

They did not just leave and that was it......they took with them GOLD and silk and wood and kettle and live stock enough to build the Tabernacle and keep burning animals to keep YHWH smelling "sweet smell of burning flesh" for forty years.

Three million people in any place for forty years will leave LOTS and LOTS of bones of themselves and the animals they ate. They would leave lots and lots of debris and remnants.

Can you think of the logistics of making three million people cross a sea?

Can you think of how Moses could have talked to three million people?

Can you think of how much food and water three million people need?

Just the water alone....an average human needs at least 1.5 liters a day to stay hydrated and that is not in a desert.

So that is 4.5 million liters (1 million gallons) of water DAILY in a desert?

Think about the feces and urine of three million people?

This is not a CAMPING trip of your family Edge.

Do you know that if they walked in a file of 5 people in a row walking lockstep like an army then they would measure at least 400 KM (248 miles).

So that is 400 KM long file of 5 people in a row.....248 miles.....

At an average of an army march rate of 50 miles a day it would take the column of these people 5 days just to travel its own length.

What most people who take the Bible at its word do not do is THINK about what it takes to do what it says.


Originally Posted by edge View Post
I also would consider the people that are indigenous to Sadia Arabia and what they have to say about their history.
They would have to be questioned about their linage and history at that area.
Why they think that site it is what it is.

Why would they know about what happened 3500 years ago more than we do about ours 3500 years ago? Do you know anything about YOUR history of 3500 years ago? How about 1000…. What about 500?

Are you saying they are not prone to FABRICATING myths?

How about Mecca….they say that was built by Abraham and Ishmael? Did that happen? Is Mecca really a Holy Place? Why are you not going there and converting to Islam if that is the case?

Originally Posted by edge View Post
I find the evidence quit compelling but nothing short of professionals going in and recording the digs with regular reports will do, to know and learn with absolute proof.
It should be a crime to with hold history like that.
It seems to me that all the pieces fit nicely on the surface.

Did you see the evidence yourself? What evidence? Some guy’s story on the Internet?

Do you remember the Face On Mars fiasco? There are people who till today still believe NASA is hiding the real truth?

There are CTs that say that in Saudi they have also discovered skeletons of the Nephileem (Giants).

So how much B.S. are you willing to “find quite convincing” because you saw some pictures on the Internet of?

Edge….. I have a Gold mine to sell you for only $1000 dollars I will send you all the pictures you need? And when you are happy I will transfer the title deed to you for $1000.00 ….do we have a deal?



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Old 10th November 2011, 06:07 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
So Edge.....do you now believe in Evolution?
I was wondering what the replies were going to be.
Ya got to meet me half way, Mkay.
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Old 10th November 2011, 06:45 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
How do we know they did this? Think about it.....we KNOW they did this?

We even KNOW who they did it to....we even know WHY they did it?

So in other words their efforts were in vain and not quite successful.

If they were able to destroy the evidence FULLY we would have never known about it.

The fact that we know means that there was enough evidence of them doing it and in some cases we even knew who and why and when.

So why is there no evidence at all...not even evidence of attempting to do it.

Now if you are talking about some rag-tag runaway slaves then the Egyptians would have had no need to record anything.

But....if you are talking about almost three million people leaving Egypt when the whole population of Egypt was about 2 million at its apex of prosperity then SOMETHING would have been weird.

They did not just leave and that was it......they took with them GOLD and silk and wood and kettle and live stock enough to build the Tabernacle and keep burning animals to keep YHWH smelling "sweet smell of burning flesh" for forty years.

Three million people in any place for forty years will leave LOTS and LOTS of bones of themselves and the animals they ate. They would leave lots and lots of debris and remnants.

Can you think of the logistics of making three million people cross a sea?

Can you think of how Moses could have talked to three million people?

Can you think of how much food and water three million people need?

Just the water alone....an average human needs at least 1.5 liters a day to stay hydrated and that is not in a desert.

So that is 4.5 million liters (1 million gallons) of water DAILY in a desert?

Think about the feces and urine of three million people?

This is not a CAMPING trip of your family Edge.

Do you know that if they walked in a file of 5 people in a row walking lockstep like an army then they would measure at least 400 KM (248 miles).

So that is 400 KM long file of 5 people in a row.....248 miles.....

At an average of an army march rate of 50 miles a day it would take the column of these people 5 days just to travel its own length.

What most people who take the Bible at its word do not do is THINK about what it takes to do what it says.





Why would they know about what happened 3500 years ago more than we do about ours 3500 years ago? Do you know anything about YOUR history of 3500 years ago? How about 1000…. What about 500?

Are you saying they are not prone to FABRICATING myths?

How about Mecca….they say that was built by Abraham and Ishmael? Did that happen? Is Mecca really a Holy Place? Why are you not going there and converting to Islam if that is the case?




Did you see the evidence yourself? What evidence? Some guy’s story on the Internet?

Do you remember the Face On Mars fiasco? There are people who till today still believe NASA is hiding the real truth?

There are CTs that say that in Saudi they have also discovered skeletons of the Nephileem (Giants).

So how much B.S. are you willing to “find quite convincing” because you saw some pictures on the Internet of?

Edge….. I have a Gold mine to sell you for only $1000 dollars I will send you all the pictures you need? And when you are happy I will transfer the title deed to you for $1000.00 ….do we have a deal?



YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
That's not a Krakens skeleton.
Where did you get 3 million from?
I do know about my peoples history, it goes back to 2,000 years or so.

No evidence at all is how it has been till recently.
There are more than one set of people who have recorded this and went there in Saudi to see for themselves.
Quote:
Edge….. I have a Gold mine to sell you for only $1000 dollars I will send you all the pictures you need? And when you are happy I will transfer the title deed to you for $1000.00 ….do we have a deal?


Send me a copy of the deed and the location which will be on any mining claim.
Well go from there.
All this can be checked because the agencies are willing to let you look at assay reports.
The agencies in Saudi are not cooperating.

You have forgotten everything that happened.
The numbers are not impossible, most would say2.5 million, some suggest way less for the various reasons that you forget about on purpose.
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Old 10th November 2011, 07:30 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
Where did you get 3 million from?
The book of Exodus estimates 600,000 men on foot, besides women and children. 2 million is a conservative estimate of the total. The population of Egypt is estimated to have been about 3 million at the time.
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Old 10th November 2011, 07:56 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
Where did you get 3 million from?


You have forgotten everything that happened.
The numbers are not impossible, most would say2.5 million, some suggest way less for the various reasons that you forget about on purpose.


The text says 600,000 of fighting age.

Assuming there are women and children and elderly I estimate 4:1 ratio of none-fighting to fighting thus 3M people altogether.

So IMHO 3M is actually a low estimate.

Nonetheless.... I will not argue with you.... 2.5M is still way too large for the considerations I mentioned that you are not willing to consider and because of which you would like to drive the number down.

ALSO….if they were not 600,000 men then how many were they? And why did God get the count wrong?



Originally Posted by edge View Post
I do know about my peoples history, it goes back to 2,000 years or so.

You THINK you know..... Did any of them Cut Cherry Trees..... do you know how much MYTH has been created around someone like George Washington? And he was only 250 years ago? Have you ever heard of King Arthur and Merlin? Were they history? Many English people in the Middle ages thought they were. Do you know who built Stone Henge?



Originally Posted by edge View Post
There are more than one set of people who have recorded this and went there in Saudi to see for themselves.

So how does that concord with your next statement just a few line later?


Originally Posted by edge View Post
The agencies in Saudi are not cooperating.

How do you know that what these people claim is correct.....are they mainstream Archaeologists or are they grave robbers?

If they have any claim at all they should have written up the stuff in PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.... no?

How did they go to the place? If Saudis prohibit it...how did they manage to arrive there?




Originally Posted by edge View Post
Send me a copy of the deed and the location which will be on any mining claim.
Well go from there.
All this can be checked because the agencies are willing to let you look at assay reports.

No... you can only have the photos.....that is all you have to go by....PHOTOS.... why won’t you accept the photos as proof just as you do for the CT you tend to believe by default….. “true until proven false”?
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Old 10th November 2011, 11:46 AM   #183
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In regards to the numbers departing Egypt, it seems pretty obviously inflated over the generations. Like any fish story, it got better with time.

In the OT, the Jews were a mighty nation, defeating all comers - right up till they were enslaved - then they were a mighty nation again, defeating all comers.

Parallel to the "when I was young I was sooooo good looking" kind of reminiscence.
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Old 10th November 2011, 05:36 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
In regards to the numbers departing Egypt, it seems pretty obviously inflated over the generations. Like any fish story, it got better with time.
Not necessarily.

From the evidence I've seen, the most likely explanation is that the remnants of a whole period of oral literature, from a time when the proto-Hebrews were in conflict with Egyptian forces in Canaan, later got re-imagined and sewn together with other oral traditions within the context of the world in which the editors of the Biblical texts lived.

There were stories of victories over Egyptian forces, Yahweh tossing Pharaoh's armies into the sea (borrowed from earlier mytho-epic poetry), Moses receiving the first laws from God (several versions of that), Jews being taken captive by Egypt, Jews being released from captivity, Jews collaborating with Egypt, Jews being sold into slavery to Egyptians, Jews living as nomads, and so forth, from various times.

At the time the books of Genesis and Exodus were redacted, a master narrative had developed which made sense in their world in which the Egyptians lived in Egypt, not in Canaan. So tales from the nomadic period, including tales of Moses establishing the first law before the period of the judges, get mixed in with tales from the warrior confederation that fought against Egypt and eventually established the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

The result is that Hebrews taken captive by Egyptian forces are re-imagined as Jews enslaved in Egypt itself. Tales of the nomadic period are re-imagined as wandering between Egypt and the time of the judges. A story of victory over the forces of Pharaoh is re-imagined as a battle against the exiting Jews. And so forth.

One example of this re-interpration is passover, which has its roots in a hebrew ritual observed at the time when the herds are calving and certain herbal plants are emerging.

A firstborn lamb or kid would be cooked with the wild herbs, and they'd eat unleavened bread because that's the only kind of bread they made. All the meat had to be eaten by morning, and of course part of it was sacrificed to God first.

So that got rolled in, too. It was re-imagined as symbolic of delivery from Egypt.

It all fit into a big master-narrative by the time these books were redacted.

And when you do the linguistic analysis, together with the timelines we get from archaeology and related sciences, you can see the layers making up this sparrow's nest.

And once you've done that, you understand why going to look for the location of the burning bush is a profoundly misguided quest.
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Old 10th November 2011, 10:38 PM   #185
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Good post!
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Old 11th November 2011, 12:45 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
Good post!

I second that....especially
"And once you've done that, you understand why going to look for the location of the burning bush is a profoundly misguided quest."
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Old 11th November 2011, 04:41 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
So Edge.....do you now believe in Evolution?
If so, he should have properly said, "I'll be a monkey's cousin."
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Old 11th November 2011, 04:44 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
In regards to the numbers departing Egypt, it seems pretty obviously inflated over the generations. Like any fish story, it got better with time.

In the OT, the Jews were a mighty nation, defeating all comers - right up till they were enslaved - then they were a mighty nation again, defeating all comers.

Parallel to the "when I was young I was sooooo good looking" kind of reminiscence.
The Egyptians were prodigious record keepers, sometimes literally carved into stone. Strange that both the Exodus and the Great Flood escaped their attention. IIRC the Great Pyramid was built ~ 100 years after the Great Flood, which means the world population had to quadruple every year while the Eygptians created their own splinter culture and grew strong enough to build them while building many, many other buildings and disguising them as ancient structures.
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Old 11th November 2011, 05:29 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The Egyptians were prodigious record keepers, sometimes literally carved into stone. Strange that both the Exodus and the Great Flood escaped their attention. IIRC the Great Pyramid was built ~ 100 years after the Great Flood, which means the world population had to quadruple every year while the Eygptians created their own splinter culture and grew strong enough to build them while building many, many other buildings and disguising them as ancient structures.


You do not understand.....they had all those Hebrew Slaves to teach them how to do it and also to teach them writing too. And don't forget also to teach them how to save for the hard times.

That was YHWH's plan to allow the Israelites to be enslaved in Egypt after having promised Abraham that they will be his chosen people.

YHWH knew that the chosen people knew better than anyone else in the world how to build pyramids as slaves and thus YHWH had them enslaved so as to give Egypt all those tourist attractions.

Ah...and don't forget all the woo around the pyramids too.

Had it not been for the Hebrews we would not have had pyramids.

The fact that the pyramids were built long before the purported Abraham let alone Joseph ever supposedly existed is a MISTAKE..... I tell you.... a Conspiracy to deny the Bible.
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Old 11th November 2011, 10:03 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
If so, he should have properly said, "I'll be a monkey's cousin."
Totally re-moved, you never know.
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Old 11th November 2011, 01:38 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
The text says 600,000 of fighting age.

Assuming there are women and children and elderly I estimate 4:1 ratio of none-fighting to fighting thus 3M people altogether.

So IMHO 3M is actually a low estimate.

Nonetheless.... I will not argue with you.... 2.5M is still way too large for the considerations I mentioned that you are not willing to consider and because of which you would like to drive the number down.

ALSO….if they were not 600,000 men then how many were they? And why did God get the count wrong?
You're leaving out the fact that people were dying along the way of all ages.
You aren't considering the point of the supernatural, and as Piggy said lots of cultural influences in there too.
I don't know how the numbers fluctuated, but at Mt. Sinai a great many were killed as the story goes after building and worshiping a golden idol.
And there is this:
Quote:
8 and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman, through the body. So the plague on the sons of Israel was checked. 9 Those who died by the plague were 24,000.
from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsal...g_the_Rock.htm
Quote:
1 Then it came about after the plague, that the LORD spoke to Moses and to Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, saying, 2 “Take a census of all the congregation of the sons of Israel from twenty years old and upward, by their fathers’ households, whoever is able to go out to war in Israel.” 3 So Moses and Eleazar the priest spoke with them in the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho, saying, 4 “Take a census of the people from twenty years old and upward, as the LORD has commanded Moses.”
Now the sons of Israel who came out of the land of Egypt were:
5 Reuben, Israel’s firstborn, the sons of Reuben: of Hanoch, the family of the Hanochites; of Pallu, the family of the Palluites; 6 of Hezron, the family of the Hezronites; of Carmi, the family of the Carmites. 7 These are the families of the Reubenites, and those who were numbered of them were 43,730. 8 The son of Pallu: Eliab. 9 The sons of Eliab: Nemuel and Dathan and Abiram. These are the Dathan and Abiram who were called by the congregation, who contended against Moses and against Aaron in the company of Korah, when they contended against the LORD, 10 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up along with Korah, when that company died, when the fire devoured 250 men, so that they became a warning. 11 The sons of Korah, however, did not die.



51 These are those who were numbered of the sons of Israel, 601,730.
from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsal...g_the_Rock.htm


Quote:
You THINK you know..... Did any of them Cut Cherry Trees..... do you know how much MYTH has been created around someone like George Washington? And he was only 250 years ago? Have you ever heard of King Arthur and Merlin? Were they history? Many English people in the Middle ages thought they were. Do you know who built Stone Henge?
You ever hear of Dracula?
Why he was at war and with whom?

Quote:
So how does that concord with your next statement just a few line later?
Watch the videos.
Quote:
How do you know that what these people claim is correct.....are they mainstream Archaeologists or are they grave robbers?

If they have any claim at all they should have written up the stuff in PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS.... no?

How did they go to the place? If Saudis prohibit it...how did they manage to arrive there?
Read the signs on the video.
But No they weren’t there to rob anything since they are Christians.
PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS, I don’t know if they did or if it is acceptable to enter into a forbidden zone in a country without permission and if that would be accepted on Photos movies alone?



Quote:

No... you can only have the photos.....that is all you have to go by....PHOTOS.... why won’t you accept the photos as proof just as you do for the CT you tend to believe by default….. “true until proven false”?
You mean the OT?
There's no money being exchanged here by talking about this.
Archeologists however confirm at least the sites that have been hidden and now give more creditability to the stories.
Of about 26 sites or so that were described through the exodus only about 6 have been found.
I personally think there was fewer women than you would like to project into those numbers since they were taking them from conquest for the single men in the army for the men because of a lack of them.

The belief of a mining claim and the OT are two entirely different things and one thing has nothing in common with the other.
In business what you are proposing won’t fly, I need an address.
A way to see what you are on about, a way of comparing information.
Verification as we go through this proscess, there is way more to verify in your proposal with less or no information, no geological proof, verses what we are talking about from history.

Cherry tree stories; maybe, but the main theme is there, and that comes in later.

They have given geographic coordinates for their claim and in mining claims sales, so should you, for the location, that’s a start.
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Old 11th November 2011, 07:28 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by edge View Post
You're leaving out the fact that people were dying along the way of all ages.

You aren't considering the point of the supernatural, and as Piggy said lots of cultural influences in there too.

I don't know how the numbers fluctuated, but at Mt. Sinai a great many were killed as the story goes after building and worshiping a golden idol.

And there is this:
from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsal...g_the_Rock.htm
from here:http://bibleencyclopedia.com/goodsal...g_the_Rock.htm




You ever hear of Dracula?
Why he was at war and with whom?



Watch the videos.

Read the signs on the video.
But No they weren’t there to rob anything since they are Christians.

PEER REVIEWED JOURNALS, I don’t know if they did or if it is acceptable to enter into a forbidden zone in a country without permission and if that would be accepted on Photos movies alone?




You mean the OT?
There's no money being exchanged here by talking about this.
Archeologists however confirm at least the sites that have been hidden and now give more creditability to the stories.
Of about 26 sites or so that were described through the exodus only about 6 have been found.

I personally think there was fewer women than you would like to project into those numbers since they were taking them from conquest for the single men in the army for the men because of a lack of them.

The belief of a mining claim and the OT are two entirely different things and one thing has nothing in common with the other.

In business what you are proposing won’t fly, I need an address.
A way to see what you are on about, a way of comparing information.
Verification as we go through this proscess, there is way more to verify in your proposal with less or no information, no geological proof, verses what we are talking about from history.

Cherry tree stories; maybe, but the main theme is there, and that comes in later.

They have given geographic coordinates for their claim and in mining claims sales, so should you, for the location, that’s a start.



I was going to respond in detail to your statements above.

But on second consideration I realized how FUTILE it is to respond to such illogical statements. So all I can say is:





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Old 12th November 2011, 04:12 AM   #193
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Quote:
Quote:
You ever hear of Dracula?
Why he was at war and with whom?
Vald the Impaler was at war with Muslim forces, IIRC.
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Old 12th November 2011, 07:38 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Vald the Impaler was at war with Muslim forces, IIRC.
Well the Ottoman Empire principally but also with some Transylvanian elements linked to his own fractious nobility, especially prior to his involvement with the crusade.
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Old 12th November 2011, 07:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Leumas View Post
I was going to respond in detail to your statements above.

But on second consideration I realized how FUTILE it is to respond to such illogical statements. So all I can say is:


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting...4ffa543d41.gif


You asked the question how did they get in?
This tells me you either don't want the answer or you haven't watched the original videos I posted.
So talk about irony, and cartoon meters.
You where doing good till then.
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Old 12th November 2011, 08:10 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Well the Ottoman Empire principally but also with some Transylvanian elements linked to his own fractious nobility, especially prior to his involvement with the crusade.
Balkan states fighting each other? Shock and dismay!
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Old 12th November 2011, 08:24 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Balkan states fighting each other? Shock and dismay!
What goes on there now is related to what was also going on back then, except all of Europe was in danger of being conquered over and over again, prejudices mostly now.
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Old 21st December 2012, 05:38 AM   #198
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Their inability to find something is what they offer as proof. “I can’t find it therefore it does not exit!” “No evidence for the Exodus wanderings!” They only recently found (2002) the “workers’ village” for the pyramids of the Giza Plateau. It is estimated this town housed 20,000 people and was built out of bricks, whereas the children of Israel lived in tents. And this discovery only came after they had searched every inch of the Giza Plateau for the last two hundred years of archaeology. But there is something that has recently come to light on this subject.

The Monastery of St. Paul in the Eastern Desert of Egypt has an interesting tradition about the Exodus of Israel. They say that during the wanderings of Israel that Miriam, the sister of Moses, washed there in a pool of water which they call the "Pool of Miriam". Israel’s next encampment after the Graves of Lust was at Hazeroth (Numbers 33:17), where Miriam was struck with leprosy. It is of interest that this tradition from the Monastery of St. Paul (also from ancient Arab writers) makes no mention of anyone else in the camp of Israel doing this, not even Moses or Joshua or Aaron, but only Miriam, the one person who was struck with leprosy at Hazeroth (Numbers 12:15). And according to the Bible (Leviticus 14:9), she would have been required to wash both her clothes and herself (“Pool of Miriam”) before re-entering the camp.

If this is so then we should find the graves of lust close by which was the encampment just before Hazeroth, and which was the only mass grave recorded during the 40 years of wanderings. About seven miles from the Monastery of St. Paul are 30 catacombs! How did the Israelites die at the encampment of Kibroth-hattaavah “graves of lust,” and Taberah? Both times the “fire” of God burned to death (cremated) multitudes who were there (Numbers 11:1, Psalm 78:20-21). The Egyptians, Arabs and Jews did not cremate; the Romans and Greeks who at one time ruled Egypt and sometimes cremated, had no known towns within 60 miles of these catacombs. The Bedouins call this site Wadi El Khawaja, "Valley of the Foreigner".

It was Sir Wilkinson who found these catacombs and said, “We went into those where the doors were the least obstructed by the sand or decayed rock, and found them to be catacombs; they are well cut, and vary from about eighty to twenty four feet, by five…We sought in vain for inscriptions or hieroglyphics; our curiosity was only rewarded by finding the scattered fragments of vases, bitumen, charcoal, and cloth. It is evident that the bodies were burnt, and the ashes…deposited in the vases, of which innumerable broken remains are seen in every direction; they are earthenware, mostly red, and heart-shaped…” (Sir Wilkinson. Royal Geographical Society, 1832, p.34).

Greeks and Romans did not always cremate, and at no other location in the Eastern Desert have cremated remains been found, even at sites known to have been home to Greeks and Romans! The book “The Red Lands” (2008, about the Eastern Desert of Egypt) said, “Evidence from all eras of antiquity indicates that bodies were inhumed and not cremated.”, also “There would have also been practical reasons for inhuming the dead: the fuel to cremate would have been in very short supply, indeed, in this hyper-arid and relatively treeless region.” (The Red Lands. p. 198) I received a letter (e-mail, Jan 12, 2011) from an archaeologist at the British Museum, in regards to the 30 catacombs, who said, “However, cremation in the Eastern Desert seems to be unknown to archaeologists who work in that region. At present, it seems, the site remains to be explained.”

In Alexandria, Egypt, a catacomb was found for both Greeks and Romans, also with cremated remains. However, their ashes were placed in a different shape of vase than the ones found at this site. They were also painted and many inscribed, not only with the name of the person, but also the date he died. These things: the lack of inscriptions and the plain unpainted vases, point to a mass funeral, as the Graves of Lust witnessed. For had this burial site been used for years, then certainly these vases would have been decorated as were those found at other sites! Israel had the time to make these catacombs as they were at Kibroth-hattaavah for at least 30 days (Numbers 11:20). Normally a catacomb will have only a couple of entrances, and is lengthened as the need for more room is required. But in order to dig out a catacomb, because of the distance between the walls (about six feet), only two or three men at a time could work the front of it. If someone had the manpower and wanted to make many catacombs in a short time (as required for the "graves of lust") he could split the men up into groups, with each group digging out a different catacomb. Here we have 30 entrances for 30 short catacombs, again pointing to them all being made at the same time. The most that the other routes could show you would be a few piles of rocks on the ground.
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Old 21st December 2012, 12:51 PM   #199
dafydd
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Originally Posted by edge View Post




You ever hear of Dracula?
You ever heard of Bram Stoker?
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Old 23rd December 2012, 12:36 PM   #200
DOC
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
There is no evidence for the miracles but there is evidence for a few events described in the bible...
Actually Jesus' empty tomb shortly after his death as reported by gospel writer Luke (who has been called a first-class historian by Sir William M. Ramsay) is some evidence of a miracle resurrection. It is not proof but it is some historical evidence that a miracle took place.

Also one must consider that it doesn't even make sense for Christianity to exist to the extent it does today without a resurrection since the resurrection is the main focal point of the entire religion. Even the apostle Paul said "If Jesus is not risen, our faith is in vain."

And according to Bart Ehrman we have historical evidence of Jesus' death as early as 32 CE.

Here is what Ehrman (who stated Jesus "certainly existed" on pg. 173) said on page 164 of his new book "Did Jesus exist?":

"And it is important to remember that Jews were saying that Jesus was the crucified messiah in the early 30s. We can date their claims to at least 32 CE, when Paul began persecuting these Jews. In fact, their claims must have originated even earlier. Paul knew Jesus's right-hand man, Peter, and Jesus's brother James. They are evidence that this belief in the crucified messiah goes all the way back to a short time after Jesus's death."

__

So the fact that we have historical evidence of an empty tomb and historical evidence of the historical figure Paul stating without Jesus rising our faith is in vain and the fact that Christianity is the #1 religion in the world today is some evidence that a resurrection took place since it doesn't make sense for Christianity to even exist today without a resurrection. This is not proof but it is some historical and logical evidence of a miracle resurrection.

Last edited by DOC; 23rd December 2012 at 01:06 PM.
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