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Old 28th December 2012, 10:12 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
Well, I haven't been following, been on another extended absence, but I would say that these contradictions are also irrelevant to the thread, unless someone is claiming that there is evidence for them.

The existence of falsehoods in the Biblical literature really has no bearing on whether or not there is evidence for "anything" in the Bible, which there certainly is -- for example, the siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrians.
Granted. The books of 1 & 2 Kings are fairly straight forward and the kings depicted in them are historical. However, about the only thing right about Sennacherib's siege in the Bible is that, for whatever reason, he didn't take Jerusalem, but settled for laying a crippling tribute on Hezekiah after destroying most of the cities of Judah. A biblical tale that, in a single night, the angel of the LORD (i.e. YHWH) slew to the last man an Assyrian army of 185,000 simply isn't true.
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Old 28th December 2012, 10:20 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Piggy View Post
Well, I haven't been following, been on another extended absence, but I would say that these contradictions are also irrelevant to the thread, unless someone is claiming that there is evidence for them.

The existence of falsehoods in the Biblical literature really has no bearing on whether or not there is evidence for "anything" in the Bible, which there certainly is -- for example, the siege of Jerusalem by the Assyrians.
Certainly there are accounts in the bible that are "accurate" in an wiggly mas o menos sort of way but these lend no credence to the veracity of a specific Jeshua Ben Josef nor the alleged supernatural events surrounding his life that are claimed there.
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Old 28th December 2012, 11:04 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Baffled View Post
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Now if one gospel said Jesus was crucified and one said he was thrown off a cliff that would be a contradiction that could not be explained.

Rubbish. Someone would just say he was crucified and then thrown off a cliff, and you'd be happy to suggest that that was somehow "evidence".

That is a possibility but I meant if he was thrown off alive and executed that way.

That's the whole point. No matter how many new parts are added to complicate the scenario, somewhere there will be an apologist scrambling to make them all work together without contradiction. It makes the story more and more unbelievable, which only works in the favour of those who already believe, because they will declare it a miracle and thus proof that it is true.

So, he was nailed to a cross, then thrown off a cliff, which on that particular day was the method used to crucify someone. He landed at the bottom, the cross jammed itself into the ground, and some thieves were crucified beside him. It's really scary being thrown off a cliff, so he yelled out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" But after he landed, he calmed down a bit and said to one of the other guys being crucified, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise," because, compared to being thrown off a cliff, just hanging there was a lot nicer.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:06 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Baffled View Post
So, he was nailed to a cross, then thrown off a cliff, which on that particular day was the method used to crucify someone. He landed at the bottom, the cross jammed itself into the ground, and some thieves were crucified beside him. It's really scary being thrown off a cliff, so he yelled out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" But after he landed, he calmed down a bit and said to one of the other guys being crucified, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise," because, compared to being thrown off a cliff, just hanging there was a lot nicer.


A new gospel has been discovered!

I dub thee "Sir Baffled".
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:39 AM   #325
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It's a Gospel. Shouldn't I be a saint rather than a knight?

I can even perform the Miracle of the Three Juggled Balls: the Baseball, the Soccerball, and the Holey Golf Ball.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:41 AM   #326
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Ooh. Sig time!
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Old 29th December 2012, 06:41 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Baffled View Post
It's a Gospel. Shouldn't I be a saint rather than a knight?

I can even perform the Miracle of the Three Juggled Balls: the Baseball, the Soccerball, and the Holey Golf Ball.
Sorry, Baff. Just writin' a gospel isn't enough for sainthood. You need two miracles; you need to produce some relics; and, oh, yeah--you gots to be deceased. Maybe one day...
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Old 29th December 2012, 07:54 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Sorry, Baff. Just writin' a gospel isn't enough for sainthood. You need two miracles; you need to produce some relics; and, oh, yeah--you gots to be deceased. Maybe one day...
Some day he'll be a relic, "We have St. Baff's leg-bone here, it cures those who limp".
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Old 29th December 2012, 11:22 PM   #329
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My legbone? If anything, it would limp those who are cured.
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Old 29th December 2012, 11:34 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
Granted. The books of 1 & 2 Kings are fairly straight forward and the kings depicted in them are historical. However, about the only thing right about Sennacherib's siege in the Bible is that, for whatever reason, he didn't take Jerusalem, but settled for laying a crippling tribute on Hezekiah after destroying most of the cities of Judah. A biblical tale that, in a single night, the angel of the LORD (i.e. YHWH) slew to the last man an Assyrian army of 185,000 simply isn't true.
Well, yes, precisely. There are aspects which are supported, and aspects which are contradicted. Typical of the theo-political rhetoric of the times, although more expansive.
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Old 29th December 2012, 11:36 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Certainly there are accounts in the bible that are "accurate" in an wiggly mas o menos sort of way but these lend no credence to the veracity of a specific Jeshua Ben Josef nor the alleged supernatural events surrounding his life that are claimed there.
There's nothing "wiggly" about it, as long as the texts are put in their historical (archaeological, linguistic, etc.) context.

In fact, the dividing lines between fact and falsehood within the documents are arguably the most interesting and important features.
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Old 30th December 2012, 04:36 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
... Missler claims that the "correct" addition to "Mark's" gospel (out of many) can be demonstrated by the application of his "heptadic" scripture structure, revealed by counting the number of words in the text, the number of letters in the words, and the ratio of consonants to vowels; all of which demonstrate a "purposely hidden signature" supported by numerological "authentication codes" in the text.

In my opinion, this is a fairly lax standard for the adjective "logical".
Dunno.
After having claimed 'slave girl Paula' Ramsey as a guarantee of Luke's status as an historian, I think 'Jiffy' Missler is perfectly in line with DOC's cast of authorities.

ETA:
Not Paula, Rhoda! I'll be forgetting my own name next!

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Old 30th December 2012, 05:02 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
What you actually said was, "Name an alleged contradiction in the NT and I'll find a website that will give a logical explanation of it."
Ok, someone gave alleged contradictions after the crucifixion and here is a logical explanation:

http://www.josh.org/resources/answer...rection-story/

Can you image all the contradictions there would have been from twenty New York
911 wtnesses (some in tower 1, some in tower 2, and some from outside) if the attacks were not filmed. Would all those contradiction had meant 911 never happened.

That said, I have still not seen an alleged contradiction in the Gospels that can't be explained.

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Old 30th December 2012, 05:10 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post

<drivel>

That said, I have still not seen an alleged contradiction in the Gospels that can't be explained.


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Old 30th December 2012, 05:14 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Baffled View Post
My legbone? If anything, it would limp those who are cured.

It's homoeopathic?
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Old 30th December 2012, 09:07 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Ok, someone gave alleged contradictions after the crucifixion and here is a logical explanation:

http://www.josh.org/resources/answer...rection-story/

Can you image all the contradictions there would have been from twenty New York
911 wtnesses (some in tower 1, some in tower 2, and some from outside) if the attacks were not filmed. Would all those contradiction had meant 911 never happened.

That said, I have still not seen an alleged contradiction in the Gospels that can't be explained.
Actually, you bragged you could provide a LOGICAL explanation...for which I am still waiting, in re the Missing Part of Mark...

But it is nice to know that future scholars will see my typos as proof of a divinely-inspired secret code...

(BTW, and OT: what kind of monster sends "souls" it created to eternal torture for failing to crack a "secret" code?)
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Old 30th December 2012, 09:33 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Can you image all the contradictions there would have been from twenty New York 911 wtnesses (some in tower 1, some in tower 2, and some from outside) if the attacks were not filmed. Would all those contradiction had meant 911 never happened.
911 never happened? You mean the emergency telephone number for the US was never implemented?

And, please, learn to use the point of interrogation, as well as the rest of the English language.
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:03 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Ok, someone gave alleged contradictions after the crucifixion and here is a logical explanation:

http://www.josh.org/resources/answer...rection-story/

Can you image all the contradictions there would have been from twenty New York
911 wtnesses (some in tower 1, some in tower 2, and some from outside) if the attacks were not filmed. Would all those contradiction had meant 911 never happened.

That said, I have still not seen an alleged contradiction in the Gospels that can't be explained.
He explains contradictions by adding to the text:

Quote:
One of the seeming contradictions that bothers people concerns the time the women came to the tomb, related differently by John and Mark. Markís account has the women coming to the tomb at the rising of the sun, while John states that Mary Magdalene came to the tomb when it was dark.

This difficulty is solved when it is realized that the women had to walk quite some distance to reach the grave, since they stayed in Jerusalem or Bethany. It was dark when they left the place in which they were staying, but when they arrived at the tomb the sun was beginning to shine. Therefore, Mark is speaking of their arrival, while John refers to their departure.
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:05 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
That said, I have still not seen an alleged contradiction in the Gospels that can't be explained.
You have got something right at last. The explanation is that the gospels are primitive fairy stories.
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:08 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Baffled View Post
My legbone? If anything, it would limp those who are cured.
That would still be a miracle.

Limpers for Christ?

Church of the Magically Maimed?
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:11 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
911 never happened? You mean the emergency telephone number for the US was never implemented?

And, please, learn to use the point of interrogation, as well as the rest of the English language.
So you're saying you believe in miracles?
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Old 30th December 2012, 01:43 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Ok, someone gave alleged contradictions after the crucifixion and here is a logical explanation:

http://www.josh.org/resources/answer...rection-story/

Can you image all the contradictions there would have been from twenty New York
911 wtnesses (some in tower 1, some in tower 2, and some from outside) if the attacks were not filmed. Would all those contradiction had meant 911 never happened.

That said, I have still not seen an alleged contradiction in the Gospels that can't be explained.
I wouldn't have a problem reconciling Matthew's account that Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" are the first to meet the risen Christ with John's account that Mary Magdalene alone is the first to meet him. However, I cannot reconcile these accounts with Luke and 1 Corinthians omitting any mention of the risen Christ appearing to the women. It's also a bit of a strain reconciling Matthew's account that the women first meet the angel at the tomb, are rushing to tell the disciples the news, when they meet Jesus and then do tell the disciples what they have experienced; with Mark saying that the women were terrified at the sight of the angel and the empty tomb, ran away and told nobody. Another problem that can't really be reconciled is that in Luke the disciples meet Jesus in Jerusalem, and in Acts 1 he tells them not to leave Jerusalem; while in Matthew he tells the women to tell the disciples he will meet them in Galilee and does indeed met them there.

Were all the accounts exactly alike we would indeed suspect that there was one source copied by all the others. So we would expect minor discrepancies. However, major, flat-out contradictions are quite different matter. In any case, we know from Luke's own admission that he was not an eyewitness to the events in the life of Jesus. Thus, his witness is hearsay.

There is also some evidence with later tampering. In 1 Corinthians we are told that the risen Christ appeared to more than 500 brethren at one time (1 Cor. 15:6). It is generally thought by believers that Luke was one of Paul's traveling companions. Yet Luke - along with all the other gospel writers - neglects to mention the 500 + brethren who witnessed the risen Christ at one time. Did paul neglect to pass on this detail to Luke? It doesn't sound like something one would leave out. Or, did he tell luke of the 500+, but Luke left it out? Again, this seems unlikely. Regardless of whether or not Paul and Luke were traveling companions, 1 Corinthians was written before the gospels, and the gospel writers may well have had access to the epistle. Therefore, there are only two possible explanations for why the gospels, particularly Luke, failed to mention the 500+ brethren. One is that they did not consider the story credible. The other is that they never mentioned because Paul never wrote it. Rather, it was an interpolation, the insertion of a later editor or copyist.
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Old 31st December 2012, 05:05 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by TimCallahan View Post
I wouldn't have a problem reconciling Matthew's account that Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" are the first to meet the risen Christ with John's account that Mary Magdalene alone is the first to meet him. However, I cannot reconcile these accounts with Luke and 1 Corinthians omitting any mention of the risen Christ appearing to the women...
Back then in that area woman were second class citizens who couldn't even testify in court. They didn't even count women as part of crowds. It would make sense in that culture for some to only mention men, while others writers might have been more liberal just like today. Heck, woman didn't even have the right to vote in the US until 1920.

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Old 31st December 2012, 05:10 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Back then in that area woman were second class citizens who couldn't even testify in court.


As irrelevant as this is, do you have a citation?


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
They didn't even count women as part of crowds.


Again, what is your reference for this claim.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It would make sense in that culture for some to only mention men, while others writers might have been more liberal just like today.



No, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If the characters in a story were women then that's how they were described throughout the whole rest of the Bible, regardless of social mores and prejudices. Are you seriously trying to claim that this one particular incident in a couple of books of the NT just happens to be the exception?

How utterly absurd.


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Heck, woman didn't even have the right to vote in the US a hundred years ago.


So bloody what?

Apart from the irrelevance of the situation in the US 100 years ago to events taking place in 1st Century Palestine, are you implying that women were at one time not allowed to appear in American literature or news reports and that this was somehow related to women's suffrage

Can you genuinely not see how bizarre that suggestion is?
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Old 31st December 2012, 05:31 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
As irrelevant as this is, do you have a citation?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm

The fact that woman were second class citizens who couldn't testify in court supports the claim the resurrection story was not made up. If it was made up it would seem all the writers would have men finding the empty tomb first, not people who couldn't testify in court.

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Old 31st December 2012, 05:42 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
As irrelevant as this is, do you have a citation?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm


Here's the heading from the page you've linked to:

Quote:
The status of women in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)

Has it slipped your mind that the story of the alleged Jesus' alleged resurrection is actually in the New Testament?

As a related question, DOC, who ran the trial of the alleged Jesus? The Romans, wasn't it?


Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The fact that woman were second class citizens who couldn't testify in court supports the claim the resurrection story was not made up.


You have established neither of these things.



Originally Posted by DOC View Post
If it was made up it would seem all the writers would have men finding the empty tomb first, not people who couldn't testify in court.


This nonsensical mumbo-jumbo is an example of what you claim to be 'logical explanations' for biblical contradictions, is it?

Spectacular fail, as usual, DOC.
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Old 31st December 2012, 05:43 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
That link is not relevant, as it is about the Old Testament.

Quote:
The fact that woman were second class citizens who couldn't testify in court supports the claim the resurrection story was not made up. If it was made up it would seem all the writers would have men finding the empty tomb first, not people who couldn't testify in court.
Nonsense. Now, please explain why the stories differ.
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Old 31st December 2012, 07:03 AM   #348
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Just for fun, let's accept Doc's explanation that the differences are just like differing witness stories; not everyone saw things the same, they each had their own experiences, etc.

This stil tells us something very important, and I don't think Doc would like the direction this points to.

This would mean that the Bible is NOT inerrant. It definatively shows that the writings in the Bible are affected by the human failings, prejudices, and misperceptions of it's authors. The text within the Bible came from those who wrote it; the claim of divine authorship is thus disproven.

That beign said, it also means the Bible cannot be considered an authoritive source. COnsidering that the text is compromised, we can now only accept as valid or factual those events within it that can be confirmed by other sources.

That being said, the ressurection is right out.
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Old 31st December 2012, 07:14 AM   #349
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DOC

Quote:
The fact that woman were second class citizens who couldn't testify in court supports the claim the resurrection story was not made up. If it was made up it would seem all the writers would have men finding the empty tomb first, not people who couldn't testify in court.
Why? Except for Mark, whose ending appears to have been lost just at the crucial moment, the other three Gospels all have boys, either male guards watching the women's visit and then testifying to the priests about it, or else one or two male disciples promptly on the scene, checking on the tomb, and assuring us that "Yup, it's empty all right."

That would be Matthew 28: 4 and 11; Luke 24: 12; and John 20: 3.

It is simply false, then, that the Gospel authors much rely on female witness to the empty tomb. Women would plausibly visit the tomb first because, while they may not have been welcome in court, they were thought worthy to clean up after the boys, and that's why they went to the tomb. The Roman boys had made a big mess of Jesus.

In any case, in Matthew, the women and the male guards receive the same information about the tomb's contents simultaneously. What Mark reports, in the part we still can read, is that an unidentifed young man was already in the wide-open tomb when the women arrived (16: 5). We've lost anything about who he was and what other role he may have played.

It is simply false, then, that your scriptures consistently depict the women finding the empty tomb first, as if that mattered, given the availability of timely male witnesses in all four canonical Gospels.

Then again, matters or not, why do you misrepresent the situation?

Last edited by eight bits; 31st December 2012 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 31st December 2012, 10:54 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Back then in that area woman were second class citizens who couldn't even testify in court. They didn't even count women as part of crowds. It would make sense in that culture for some to only mention men, while others writers might have been more liberal just like today. Heck, woman didn't even have the right to vote in the US until 1920.
One problem with this explanation is that, in the Gospel of Luke, women seem to count greatly. For example, while in Matthew Joseph receives an angelic visitation in a dream, Luke focuses on the Annunciation, the angelic visit to Mary. There is a further attention to women in the Lucan nativity story with respect to Elizabeth's miraculous conception of John the Baptist, as well as the attention Luke gives to Mary's Magnificat (Lk. 1:46 -55). Luke also relates that a number of women traveled with Jesus and the disciples, providing for then out of their own means (Lk. 8:1 - 3). In another passage, a woman named Martha receives Jesus into her house and is a bit miffed at her sister, Mary, for not helping her prepare dinner. Rather, she sits at Jesus' feet and listens to his teachings. Jesus praises her for that (Lk. 10:38 -42). So, Luke is very focused on women and would not discount them. Yet, there is no mention of women in the Lucan account of the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus, while women figure prominently in the resurrection accounts in all the other canonical gospels.

Another problem with your argument is that these gospels are supposed to have been divinely inspired. Was God's inspiration truly blocked by prejudices on the part of the mortal authors taking, as it were, divine dictation?
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Old 31st December 2012, 01:06 PM   #351
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On a related thread on the History, Literature and Arts forum I asked DOC these three questions. He hasn't yet answered them on that thread. Perhaps he'll answer them here:

1) Were, in your opinion, DOC, the resurrected saints of Matthew's passion account (Mt. 27:52, 53) literal or were they symbolic, as William Lane Craig suggests?

2) Likewise, were the 500+ brethren who saw the risen Christ at one time, according to 1 Cor. 15:6, real or symbolic?

3) If the over 500 brethren who saw the risen Christ at one time were real, and if Luke was indeed a companion of Paul's on his journeys, why didn't Luke mention the 500+ brethren?
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Old 31st December 2012, 01:40 PM   #352
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One more (double) question, DOC: Do you accept that the the three Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) shared common material, originally written in one gospel, then copied by the other two, or do you assert that all three were written independently. If you do assert they were written independently, what do you see as the motive of those who argue that one gospel was the main source for the other two?
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Old 31st December 2012, 01:41 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Quad4_72 View Post
I believe I have made a thread similar to this one for the existence of Jesus, but is there any evidence outside of the Bible that substantiates any events that supposedly occurred in the Bible? Whether they were outlandish events or small ones, what kind of outside sources are there to back up the Bible's validity in any way as a factual source?
Um, the Hittites were only mentioned in the Bible for the longest time and dismissed as myth, but archaeology confirmed them.

The Tel Dan Stela substantiates a royal House of David, mentioned by an Aramaean king.

There is fortification for the Babylonian Captivity on both sides of the conflict.

The Amorite Imperfective shows that the Patriarchal names have analogues in the actual time and place presented by the texts.

There are more, but I'll stop by introducing these and reading further into the thread.

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Old 31st December 2012, 04:03 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
No it isn't. It's just a story in an old story book. That is not evidence.
It could be evidence of grave-robbing.
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:35 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Not that again. That must be the twentieth time that you have rehearsed that broken argument. Alexander and Julius Caesar actually existed and had no miracles attributed to them and were not supposed to have come back to life.
So, in your mind, any person who has supernatural claims made about them in antiquity, is actually less likely to have even existed because of it?
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:41 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
I don't occupy my time trying to prove that there are no gods, I just point out to believers who turn up here the irrationality of their belief.
I'm pretty sure that, when pressed, most believers will admit that their paradigm is not based on logic, but faith.

And I don't think that's a big obstacle for them.
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Old 31st December 2012, 04:50 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just for fun, let's accept Doc's explanation that the differences are just like differing witness stories; not everyone saw things the same, they each had their own experiences, etc.

This stil tells us something very important, and I don't think Doc would like the direction this points to.

This would mean that the Bible is NOT inerrant. It definatively shows that the writings in the Bible are affected by the human failings, prejudices, and misperceptions of it's authors. The text within the Bible came from those who wrote it.
There are some of the writings of Paul that admonish this very point (that he's speaking for himself, not God). Is this a new idea to you?

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Old 31st December 2012, 05:59 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
And married.
With at least one child.
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Old 31st December 2012, 06:44 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Mudcat View Post
With at least one child.
So says Dan Brown.
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Old 31st December 2012, 07:52 PM   #360
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Wow didn't realize this thread had been resurrected. I went back and skimmed through some of the posts from the point which is was resurrected, and I didn't find any factual information that substantiates any of the miracles or otherwise miraculous events that occur in the Bible. Did I perhaps miss something? If so, could someone please quote or present the evidence? I would love to read it.
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